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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2719895 No.2719895 [Reply] [Original]

Why do people hate math so much? All throughout middle school and high school, my peers absolutely hated and many struggled with it for some reason. I could always look at a problem and work it out in a second in my head. I honestly never understood the math disability that so many people seem to have.

Is this a societal thing? Do people grow hearing about how hard math is on TV, or perhaps from their parents, thus building up an early intolerance to math so that even if a person could be good at math, they detest it?

It this a genetic thing? Are most people simply born incapable of understanding math in depth, which causes frustration?

>> No.2719911

>>2719895
Math sucks for everyone. Period.

You don't have an outstanding understanding of math. No one does. It is far too vast and complicated, the presumption that you understand it is preposterous.

>> No.2719921

cause its all abstract n logical n shit

>> No.2719943

>Is this a societal thing? Do people grow hearing about how hard math is on TV, or perhaps from their parents, thus building up an early intolerance to math so that even if a person could be good at math, they detest it?

Primarily this.

Mathematics is usually associated with the 'geniuses' of our society and, early on, we are taught to give an automatic aversion to it since the majority of us aren't 'geniuses.' People are like sheep most of the time, so they simply go along with what they are told/taught(exception to kids, though). When I was in the first grade, a voluminous amount of children actually enjoyed Mathematics to a small degree. Even if some didn't 'enjoy' it, they didn't look upon it with disdain; they just did the work and went home.

Those same people, years later, would complain endlessly about mathematics. I've no doubt that adults and society guided their aversion to Mathematics.

As for it being a 'genetic thing,' that's very rare. Dyscalculia does exist, but it can be treated and people can do well in the field. There is no genetic aversion to mathematics strictly, either; if someone has down syndrome, for example, they're going to be deficient in all subjects including Mathematics.

>> No.2719954

>Is this a societal thing? Do people grow hearing about how hard math is on TV, or perhaps from their parents, thus building up an early intolerance to math so that even if a person could be good at math, they detest it?

Partly.

But it's just the nature of maths education. The subject is taught badly and school itself is unpleasant to children. They're not allowed to play and are told they're stupid when they don't do well. Maths is one of the harder subjects, so a greater number of children end up getting told they're stupid or coming to that conclusion themselves when they see that they're having problems with things some of the other children find easy. And if it's a harder subject, they become frustrated that it doesn't come as easily as everything else.

If you're either bad at maths or not interested in it, maths at school is an unpleasant experience.

>> No.2719957

I don't hate math, I just found it very tedious.

>> No.2719980

>>2719943

Beautiful post, beautiful post! Kudos!

I personally also would like to add that from my perspective math can be hard because it's based purely on abstract concepts. There is much rigor and dedication needed to solidify the abstractions into something that can be repeated and applied naturally.

>> No.2719985

>>2719954

This too. Mathematics Education here in the US is horrendous. I'm a Mathematics tutor and, though many professors out-qualify me, I can see that they've no talent in teaching the subject in which they specialize.

I think people often confuse specialty in a specific subject with the ability to actually TEACH. I have yet to see an English professor actually -teach- something interesting in an English class; all I've ever done is write papers and analyze poems/literature. I know some of the professors are amazingly good at writing too, but they can't -teach- the field.

Same goes for Math, apparently.

>> No.2720019

>>2719980

Definitely. The thing with Mathematics is that it is an extremely difficult field to grasp later on simply because you're literally working with ideas alone. This is relatively difficult for us, as human beings, to do since when we articulate our thoughts, we materialize actual objects. If I think about traveling, for example, I think about a train, a bus, a car, etc. If I think about a woman, I think about her physique, mind, etc. If I think about a group(abstract algebra), I have to remember all of this concepts that can't be created instantaneously.

For the record, I've always attempted to analyze mathematics from a graphical perspective. It's why I love Geometry and chose to focus myself in that field, because it's so flexible and not as abstract as other fields.

Of all of the mathematical fields which exist, I think number theory is the most abstract.

>> No.2720032

>>2719985

It's the same in Britain.

A particular problem that maths has is that children are forced to learn things that seem completely pointless and abstract to them. Children can see the usefulness of English. They can see the usefulness of history and science. In those subjects, they're learning about something "real". In maths, they're taught abstract concepts and laws that seem like intellectual masturbation. A child forced to learn that -b + or - sqrt of 4*a*c all over 2a feels as if he is being forced to learn a series of symbols for no reason at all. If you don't have a fascination with numbers, that's incredibly boring.

The way maths is taught in the English speaking world is like teaching children to say set phrases in a foreign language without bothering to tell them how the language works or even what the things they're saying actually mean.

>> No.2720050

>>2720032
How is it taught in the non-english speaking world?

>> No.2720066

>>2720050

I don't know, but we seem to do a particularly bad job of it, if our results are anything to go by.

>> No.2720071

>>2720019
Do you have a copy of Visual Complex Analysis?

brb, remembering how to concatenate jpgs and pdfs

>> No.2720089

I liked it a lot but my teachers were condescending asses to everyone in the class. They don't seem to think kids in poorer public school will ever amount to anything.

>> No.2720094

>>2720050
The same way, but when the students ask "When will I ever use this in real life?" the teacher tells them to shut up.

New-age "kids caint learn if they arent excited by the subject material" is a ton of shit. Asian kids aren't fascinated by math.

>> No.2720104

>>2720050

Honestly depends on culture. I've heard from my Asian friends that memorization is highly influential in those schools and that you're required(at home) to study for 5+ hrs a day. In Brazil, Mathematics is actually taught in a similar pattern to English; however, they're a bit more .. assignment-based, I guess? I say this as someone who has had two Brazilian professors. They like giving students assignments alongside HW problems for some reason. It wasn't a bother to me, but it kind of weirded me out a bit.

In certain European countries, it's just brutal. My first Calc professor was Russian and wow, she completely annihilated me psychologically. She actually hardened me mentally to withstand put-downs, insults about my intelligence, etc. they don't play around.

>> No.2720134

I think that this really speaks a lot about the differences in teaching math between successful and unsuccessful countries:

"In 96% of U.S. math lessons, students practice a procedure, as compared to
46% in Japan. In only 1% of U.S. math lessons do student formulate the
procedures themselves, as compared to 44% in Japan.
™ 0% of the videotaped U.S. eighth grade math lessons had instances of
deductive thinking, as opposed to 61% of the Japanese lessons. In the
United States, lessons were interrupted 28% of the time, compared with only
2% in Japan. "

http://www.gphillymath.org/ExempPaper/TeacherPresent/Mastrull/SMastrull.pdf

>> No.2720136

>>2720094

>New-age "kids caint learn if they arent excited by the subject material" is a ton of shit

Irrelevant, since the thread is about why people don't *like* maths, not why they can't do it. Even if children can learn by rote something the teachers don't even try to help them understand or relate to real life, they'll still hate it unless either they're brilliant and they like the subject because they always get praised by the teacher, or they're the very rare kind of person who enjoys abstract things that they can't relate to.

>> No.2720178

>>2720136

The root of the problem is, that real math isnt even taught in school, it's merely arithmetics. Some introduction to logical deduction and fundamental mathematical concepts should be taught alongside algorithms to solve specific kinds of problems.

>> No.2720195

>>2720136
I was responding to irrelevant posts, but thank you for telling me my post was irrelevant.

>> No.2720218
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2720218

>>2720178
Where do I learn this "real math" you speak of? No troll, bro. I stopped math after calc 3, and I'd like to gather a deeper understanding of math for myself by means of independent study if that's possible. How do?

>> No.2720246

I wouldn't mind having math be just a pop sci thing, like string theory or whatever the public eats up. Respect and appreciation for the beauty of mathematics IS a good thing- the public won't be more 'logical', but it might carry the same effect as the way evolution has swept agnosticism into modern society. However, I wouldn't want more pure OR applied mathematicians, it's hard enough to get a job in research as of now!

>> No.2720273

>>2720246
The answer to that isn't 'limit the amount of scientists and mathematicians', it's 'FUND MOAR RESEARCH', lest we become alike to the medical community...med school is hard to get in to because only smart people can do it, rite?

>> No.2720268

>>2720218

"Foundations and Fundamental Concepts of Mathematics" by Howard Eves

Someone on /sci/ recommended it once and I kinda liked it. Even for math undergraduates its a valueable read to get why you do the shit you do.

It's more like a history lesson in mathematics, but it's the best way to get quick feeling of the development of the axiomatic method, abstract algebra and logic if you dont have any university-level math education.

It may be a tendious read if you are not that interested in how math evolved in time however.

>> No.2720320

How many people still read shakespeare or poetry or whatever even after they grew up? How many are excellent at essay writing and can form concise, logical arguments? Very few.

Teaching 'real math' in high school wouldn't make a big impact. The only reason math is taught up to calc in HS anyways is because most kids see $$$ in engineering and will need that math to get into an engineering field. There were already enough people in my abstract classes moaning about the lack of applications of groups and rings (it was required for all minors).

>> No.2720355

>>2720268

Any other recommended math books? I'm going to have to take 4 semesters of calculus, and I've been slowly teaching it to myself to prepare for the classes.

>> No.2720451

>>2720355

Please note that the mentioned book is not really useful for specific classes such as calculus, it gives some insight into many different aspects of different mathematics, but it's more like a story about motivations and backgrounds and by far not in-depth enough to help with specific classes.

Can't help you with subject-specific books though, I mostly stick to my lecture notes there.

>> No.2720528

>>2720320

Of course torturing people with rings and abstract algebra wouldnt give you any gain.

But getting some very simple, basic logic into high school math like formaly negating sentences or likewise stuff. It's all about finding concrete apllications to formulate excersices (they are there!) in order to keep motivation somewhat existant.

>> No.2720572

I didn't have trouble with math until I hit Calculus, and then I hit it like a brick wall.
Up until Calculus, I was good at math, but I didn't like it because it was tedious and time-consuming. Especially when you got to the levels where "showing your work" took an entire page of rewriting the same thing with only slight variations.

Part of it was me hating to rewrite stuff and getting bored, but part was the way math is taught. You can't use notes on tests, which is bullcrap. In real life, you'll have access to every resource. If you work in the space shuttle control room and need to work some math for some reason and don't remember X equation, your supervisor won't tell you "No, don't use your notes."
They test memorization, not application, and they don't give sufficiently structured real-world problems. On some concepts, I asked the teacher why we were learning this because it wasn't a foundation for later concepts and I didn't see how it was useful. I asked the teacher "When will we use this in real life?" and he replied "You won't."
That needs to change.

>> No.2720657

>>2720572

but that alone cant be the reason that math is like the most unpopular subject of them all... all the other subjects reward memorization as well and you dont need that stuff later in life either

>> No.2720674

>>2720572

You're not doing math right. You were good at math before calculus because it didn't require thought.

>> No.2720700

>>2720674

>implying calculus requires thought

>> No.2720737

>>2720134

Oh dear god this.

I just finished my calc 2 class yesterday, and this was a HUGE problem. Right before the final I was discussing methods for finding the volume of tricky solids of revolution with another student, and whenever I tried to come up with some way of doing something he was just would interject "rules" at me. Basically saying like "when you do 2pi int(rh)dx you have to integrate perpendicular to the herp derp."

This kid isn't stupid, hell, we are in the same physics class and he regularly kicks my ass at it, but because I was explaining things in terms of what I was actually doing conceptually he had no idea what I was talking about. He just memorized all the formulas for the test and didn't understand where they come from or why they work. It was very evident from questions asked in class that this is how most of my classmates approached this. The grad student who taught the class actually took great pains to explain why everything worked and make it all make sense (even going so far as to provide complete note sets where equations were derived online) so I think this reflects how they learned how to "learn" math. It's really too bad, because they also have it ingrained into their heads that they shouldn't care, so when they see a really elegant proof or a really clever way of solving a problem they just see "meh". It's too bad, really.

>> No.2720983

I've always had trouble with math. Maybe it is the way I think about it or something else entirely. I barely remember the stuff I learned in HS Algebra. Love history btw.

>> No.2721102

>>2720737
It wasn't until I took it into my own hands that I could enjoy math. In school, they'd teach it as rote memorisation and many teachers didn't even fully understand what they were doing.

>> No.2721168

I would say social fear and lack of proper education. Of course, this proper education does not solely mean teachers. If you don't study because you think math is for losers, guess what, you'll hate it.

>> No.2721242

people think in different ways
i don't think algebraically and have struggled with math a lot.
whenever i try to understand equations i have to translate it to and from algebra.
hard to explain but the way i think of things is not math oriented at all.

>> No.2721276

I absolutely hated it. Sat up for hours trying to get my head around it and I couldn't do it. I was fine with the basics but when it came to algebra or trig or anything like that I just couldn't handle it. I ended up getting a C at GCSE in it and leaving it at that.

It was a shame though because I really enjoyed chemistry and physics. No matter how hard I put the effort in though I just couldn't get maths to work. On the other hand, I picked up languages extremely easily and reading was natural to me.

Lack of good teaching methods and the people associated with maths doesn't help. Your average kid does not want to be seen to be good at maths when he's starting high school. He wants to be good at sports.

>> No.2721289

A large part of it is that we've been teaching it the same way since paper was invented. Even if there are easier more accurate means of doing it.

>> No.2721372

I wanna be like the guy who found the 13th root of a 200 digit number in his head in 13 seconds.

>> No.2721612

>>2721276
This guy and everyone struggling with math should try this: Don't listen to what a teacher says; don't accept what they say to be fact. For everything you're learning think about why it works like it does, look at proofs for theorems, etc. This is the best way to learn, as opposed to trying to regurgitate everything a teacher says onto a piece of paper. My memory is awful; I do terrible at history because I lack the attention to tediously memorize facts. But math, math is not about memorization, but comprehension.