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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2701896 No.2701896 [Reply] [Original]

Is quantum mechanics taught in American high schools?

>> No.2701900

Whoa hold on sonny jim, high school graduates have just finished learning about algebra.

>> No.2701902

>>2701900
yeah, if they were remedial

i don't think so but it's been a while

>> No.2701907

I wouldn't know about America but we touched on it in Ireland. I think we covered the uncertainty principle and the s,p,d,f shite that I can't remember.

>> No.2701906

I'm not even sure if the teachers know what QM is.

>> No.2701909

No. And I can assure you quantum mechanics is not taught in any other high schools either. You can claim your school teaches it, but there is no way it even can. You need to know at least 2-3 years of college math before you can even start quantum. Learning that an atom is comprised of neutrons, protons, and electrons is not quantum mechanics by the way.

>> No.2701914

>>2701909
Well OP's image is to quantum mechanics as natural disasters are to Japan, so there's no real reason to think that OP has any idea what QM even partly entails.

>> No.2701915

>>2701907
That isn't really quantum mechanics. The uncertainty principle somewhat but I'm sure you learned only a specific version and probably learned none of the math of it. And the s,p,f,d stuff is not quantum mechanics. That's more chemistry. I highly doubt you derived orbital level equations.

>> No.2701923

No. But I learned the math needed to do it in High School. All you need is matrixes for the most limited introduction, and integrals/derivatives as well as rudimentary infinite series to do most of the rest. So it could be taught. To like 3 kids in the whole school per year, which is about how many were at my level.

>> No.2701933

>>2701900
I don't know what high school you went to but it must've sucked.

>> No.2701934

>>2701896

Briefly touched upon the uncertainty principle and virtual particles, but only as concepts, not mathematically.

>> No.2701938
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2701938

>>2701902
In my American high school, algebra wasn't required for graduation, and there was no calculus class.

>> No.2701942

Only prestigious public and private high schools cover that material. Here's a description from one of the high schools that I found online.

"This one-semester elective builds on Physics A, stressing current applications in science. Topics may vary with student interest, but typically include:
electricity and magnetism (Maxwell equations, radiation), wave phenomena (lumped-circuit analogies, diffraction), relativity, and quantum mechanics.
Formal development, rather than numerical problem solving, is emphasized. Because derivatives of polynomials and transcendentals are used, prior or
concurrent enrollment in calculus, or consent of the instructor, is required"

>> No.2701955

>>2701938

Wow o.O. That really sucks.

>> No.2701952

>>2701938
iknowthatfeelbro.jpg

>> No.2701949

>>2701938
damn, i went to public school and in CA algebra is a requirement to graduate. the school offered ap and cp calculus as well as stats, though you had to get bused to a different school if you wanted to take bc calc.

>> No.2701967

>>2701949
In rural Iowa, algebra is optional.

>> No.2701969

>>2701938
What a shitty school. My school required you to take a math class every year. Generally it went Alg, geometry, trig, calc. Our school wasn't the greatest or most advanced but you at least had to learn up to calc.

>> No.2701993

I see no purpose in teaching QM in high school, other than "look kids, physics is so crazy". I vaguely remember doing double slit experiments, and mentioning Schrodingers' cat, but only briefly, and very little depth.

I'm pretty sure I had no idea even what an eigenstate was in highschool.

>> No.2702282

Holy shit, America, are you even trying?

We did the uncertainty principle, double slit experiment, particle physics etc. at AS level. There's a whole heap more in the second year, too. Britfag here.

>> No.2702302
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2702302

>>2701896
Sadly no.
They actually don't even teach classical mechanics in American high school.

It is pretty fucking pathetic!

>> No.2702587

I don't know what redneck town some of these people are from, but we got physics in my school. Also, we went up to Calc I.

I know that other countries are a little more rigorous, but, at the college level, people tend to quickly even out.

>> No.2702620

>>2701896
I go to a prestigious, public Florida school where AP is the norm. We have AP Physics B,C - Calc AB, BC - Multivariable/Diff Equ - AP Bio - AP Chem - AP etc, etc.

We pretty much have every AP except Computer Science which is just a Florida virtual school class away. My school is extremely competitive and smart.

>> No.2702652

>>2702302
In my HS they did. They had a buch of Mechanical Engineering classes. we even had a robot lab.

>> No.2702664

>>2702620
Congrats. Are you taking any of those AP classes?

>> No.2702680
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2702680

>>2702587
You take very elemenetary physics. Uusally a survery course. Very dumbed down.

You don't take classical mechanics.

>> No.2702675

>>2702282
AS britfag here too, just doing that shit you mentioned. What board do/did you do, and is there any astrophysics in A2?

>> No.2702684

>>2702675

AQA. Yeah, I'm doing astrophysics at A2 now. It's one of the options.

>> No.2702688

>>2702652
They teach homosex in high school?

WTF?

>> No.2702694

>>2702587
Yeah, my high school may have sucked, but I had enough interest in physics to do an individual study with my towns community college prof. People who want to learn usually find a way.
>>2702282
Dude, that stuff is basic, isnt it? Or did my classes suck less than I remember?

>> No.2702706

>>2702694

Yes, it is pretty basic, but AS is studied at 16/17.

>> No.2702710

>>2702684
Damn, my schools an OCR bitch. Hopefully they do astrophysics too, seeing as its my favourite field

>> No.2702725

>>2702706
So like 11th grade/Junior year? Yeah that sounds about right.

>> No.2702726

>>2702664
Yup! I've taken AP Human Geography, US History, Computer Science A, and Psychology.

My current schedule consists of four APs (compared to many who take 6 -_- ). They include AP Calculus AB (wish I was in BC, AB is not challenging), English Literature and Composition, Physics B, and Chemistry.

After reading this thread I really feel privileged to have all these opportunities.

>> No.2702728

britfag here... I'd be surprised if there was anything more than the double slit experiment taught in high school. We learned about that and photoelectricity and that's more or less the extent of it for this year. It's quite irritating as QM and physical chemistry are all I'm properly interested in.

>> No.2702733

If I remember correctly, my HS required 3 years of math and 3 of science. Which means you end up in stats or pre-calc after algebra 2, and should be in physics after completing chem and bio. That's the way mine worked anyway. AP classes went as high as Calc 2, and Science went up to Molecular Bio/ AP Physics (i.e., physics 2).

>> No.2702737

>>2702710

I expect they do some. The boards are all pretty similar to be honest.

>> No.2702738

>>2702726
You are damned lucky.
What tests are you going to take?
I took the AP chem my junior year.
GOT A 5 NIGGA
Then some asian freshman took the physics one and got a 5.
damn asians.

>> No.2702739

The closest that New York public schools get is a very brief overview of the photoelectric effect and de Broglie wavelengths. None of it is actually explained, mostly because almost no high school students take linear algebra or calculus beacuse our country is a motherfucking embarrassment to the world at large.

>> No.2702745

>>2702739
Only portions of the country.

>> No.2702747

Germanfag here.
No quantum mechanics, but we did some qualitative N-slit experiments, learned that in a potential well there's a wave function with roots at the boundaries etc.
No Hilbert spaces though. <span class="math">\ddot\smile[/spoiler]

>> No.2702761

>>2702726
NYfag, northerner master race reporting in. This is pretty commonplace at public schools, at least in the southern part of the state and on Long Island. I'm glad you are in a great school, but Florida and most of the US is pretty fucktarded. More power to you.

>> No.2702770

>>2702761
NHfag reporting in.
Feels good to have Seasons, huh?
*Northerner brofist*

>> No.2702774

stay in germany you nazi namefag kraut motherfucker, I hope you die

>> No.2702792

>>2702774
lol, that's new

>> No.2702796

>>2702770
Brofist acknowledged.

>> No.2702802

I knew as much as a BSc in Physics when I graduated from High School.

>> No.2702809

In regular chemistry, they go into the basics of Quantum Mechanics.

At least they did over in PA.

>> No.2702813

>>2702802
sure you did

>> No.2702847

My chemistry class went through the model of the atom and the uncertainty principal, but it was not explained well at all. We spent way too much on bohr's model.

This was an AP class, too.

>> No.2702853

Why is the Bohr model still taught? I hate that crap, tell me the way we think it is NOW, not how we thought it was in 1930.

>> No.2702860

>>2702853
Because you are too stupid to understand modern QM.

>> No.2702873

>>2702853
As far as chemistry is concerned, bohr's model explains shit well enough to undestand basic molecular bonding.

>> No.2702897

I didn't even do any QM until my third year of a Mathematics degree, let alone High School. I'm somewhat thankful for that. It's interesting, but the maths behind it is a bitch.

>> No.2702903

If they required algebra for graduation in America black people would graduate at lower rates, and we can't have that.

>> No.2702957

>>2702897

Yeah, I'm with this guy. It's cool to learn about concepts in QM in high school, but you can't do much with concepts and no high schools offer the mathematics background necessary to really go in depth. QM at my undergrad school was mostly a junior course with a few sophomores.

To you brits who are doing "particle physics" and whatnot... what do you actually do? Like specifically, what kinds of problems do you work with?

>> No.2703064

Hahaha what the fuck would be the point in teaching quantum mechanics to highschool students?

You can teach results derived fromand relating quantum mechanics like say the shapes of orbitals and quantised spectra but what's the point of actually going through and solving the schrodinger equation then deriving spherical harmonics etc. when they're still in highschool?

>> No.2703096

>>2702957
They don't. They have topical discussions about Cern and stuff like "what is a charm quark" which they might need to regurgitate in 2 or 3 mark writing answers in an exam. It's completely fucking pointless but examboards think that just teaching senior highschool pupils about forces and optics and things they might have a chance of learning properly would be too boring for them and not enough people would do it, so they cut out as much maths as possible and add shit about modern physics that is completely fucking worthless knowledge without understanding.

Believe me, we have nothing to boast about our secondary school physics education.

>> No.2703145

>>2703096

Which exam board did you do? It wasn't like that at all on AQA.

>> No.2703146

We touched briefly on QM when we did differential equations. To be honest, I could less if they teach to me as I'm not a physics major.

>> No.2703169

>>2703146

"COULDN'T CARE LESS" YOU FUCKING 'TARD.

>> No.2703391

Darn, I went to a private college prep highschool in the USA and we only had 2 calculus courses: honors Calc AB and AP Calc BC. Each class had 10-15 students in it and they were both extremely difficult like all the AP classes in my school.

AP Chem, physics and bio was offered on a rotating basis of 2 per year. I dropped my honors program my junior year since I worked a shit ton of hours and volunteer work and couldn't keep up with the course work, but I heard from the 20 or so AP science guys that the classes were insanely difficult.

>> No.2703404

>>2703391

Try an A-Level FP2 or FP3 module from a British maths board. Then you'll know what difficult means.

>> No.2703405

Here in Canada, we've go into quantum mechanics both in Grade 12 Physics and Chemistry.

>> No.2703410

>>2703405
>we've go into

>> No.2703419

>>2703145
OCR. I'm not saying the whole paper was like that but they did teach us particle physics which is completely pointless and stupid.

And I can't see how students from other exam boards saying "we did X advanced topic" could be in a much different situation.

>> No.2703480

>>2703419

On AQA one of our papers was entirely on particle physics. There were some Feynmann diagrams, you had to understand what baryons, mesons, leptons etc., radioactive decay, de Broglie wavelength, wave-particle duality. There were a few more that I forget. It wasn't too difficult, though.

>> No.2703494

>>2703404

Oh sweet, next time I'm in Britain and decide to drop out of college and go back to high school I'll give it a try.

>> No.2703525

>>2703404
>Try a STEP 2 or a STEP 3 paper. Then you'll know what difficult means.
fixed.

But nah I'm just razzing you FP2 and FP3 were hard at the time. I remember finding FP2 harder since there wasn't really any choice of the topics you could cover, and FP3 seemed easier to learn. I remember knowing that I got loads of stuff wrong at FP2 but I got a strong A (this was pre A*) anyway because I guess everyone does really crap at it.

>> No.2703547

>>2701967
WHY would Algebra be optional for rural Iowa? Algebra is ESSENTIAL to learn if you're going to be working a farm of any kind...

>> No.2703818

I know what this thread is about. Some third-year physics major just learned about QM at his university in Europe somewhere and thought "hurrr imma troll murifats by pretending we learned this in our freshman year of high school"

Not even in the Asiatic countries are they that rigid in the math taught, considering all the shit you need to be familiar with as a foundation.

>> No.2703843

>>2703818
This. I'm from Switzerland and study physics at ETH Zurich...QM isn't taught in high schools here and therefore most definitely not in any other European country. Classical mechanics (without the abstract treatment of Langrangians/Hamiltonians maybe) should be taught in high schools though, I know it's being done here.

>> No.2703850

>>2703525

True, true. I'm getting fucked over by STEP III atm. I can cope with the other two.

>> No.2703857

>>2703818

Read the thread, you fucktard.

>> No.2703903

>>2703843
I'm swiss and in high school, we get incidentally taught some basic stuff, but it's not in the program.
A professor from Neuchâtel did a presentation about that stuff for students with physics curriculum.

>> No.2703917

we touched upon the basics

britfag btw

>> No.2703953

Well in my high school (I'm Canadian) grade 12 university level physics we glossed over it near the end of the course as well as String theory, general relativity, and a couple other aspects of modern physics. There was no math or equations involved. All it was was 2 weeks where he talked about various aspects, read excerpts from books and showed us some documentaries. It was definitely the best part of the class and was what made me pursue physics in university.

>> No.2703972

I'm 12 and we just finished up a section on Bose-Einstein statistics.

I really found rotational-vibrational motion interesting, but I only got a A- on the lab where we had to construct a make shift ramen spectrophotometer.

>> No.2703992

>>2703818
>rigid math

University Q.M. courses require no more than Calc II or III as a prereq. You cover integration in A.P. Calc.

A bright highschooler who took rigerous classes has the math background for a university level quantum course

>> No.2704039

>>2703903
yes, obviously I'm talking about the natural science curricula one can choose in Swiss high schools.
>>2703992
>University Q.M. courses require no more than Calc II or III as a prereq. You cover integration in A.P. Calc.
wtf, no! you need to know at least as much functional analysis as is taught in one semester (2 are definitely preferred where I study though) and basics in the representation theory of groups and thus some basic group theory. also differential geometry intro is necessary 'cause we're talking about Lie groups in general...and let's not forget that learning QM without having seen the formalisms of classical mechanics is ridiculous, especially since the Lagrangian/Hamiltonian formalisms were imperative to the mathematical formulation/discovery of QM. therefore
>A bright highschooler who took rigerous classes has the math background for a university level quantum course
is bullshit.

>> No.2704084
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2704084

I'm from Kansas and am in highschool.

Right now, I'm doing a project for my freshman science class. It's titled "Computational Models for Benzophenone Photodynamics."

For the project, I'm using various quantum mechanical models like Hartree Fock 3-21G and 6-31G to predict the reaction enthalpy for a reaction involving the excited state dynamics of benzophenone.

My final results will be compared to expiremental values obtained using the thermal lensing processes, in which two laser beams, and excitation N2 laser, and the information gathering He-Ne will be used. As the reaction goes forward and heat is dumped into the solution, it's refractive index will change and information regarding reaction enthalpy obtained.

Furthermore, I'd like to model the dynamics of the thermal lensing process using differential equations.

But I guess it's just a Kansas thing. Our high schools here are really far advanced because we don't waste time teaching faith based science like evolution or climate change.

Picture related, it's my freshman Kansas science class.

>> No.2704105

>>2704039

You're saying you guys don't do differential geometry and classical mechanics at high school?

>wtfisthisshit

>> No.2704117

>>2704084

You had me 'til the end.

7/10

>> No.2704143

>>2704039
What you are talking about is beyond the scope of undergraduate courses.
The regular third year quantum course is

1. Background
You talk about wave-particle duelity, deBroglie wavelength, ultraviolet catastrophe, and photo-electric effect

2. Time Independent Schrodinger Equation and QM operators

3. Particle in a box

4. Finite barrier well

5. Harmonic oscillator

6. Inharmonic oscillator

7. Rotational motion and spectroscopy

8. Hydrogen Atom

9. Many electron atoms

10. Simple molecules, LCAO

11. Huckle Molecular orbital theory

12. Selected advanced topics (Bose Statistics, Fermi statistics, super conductors, etc...)

>> No.2704152

so how shit was cash?

>> No.2704159

>>2704105
Yeah no classical mechanics WTF?

But seriously difftential geometry is a 3rd year math course. Maybe you mean vector calc.

>> No.2704158

>>2704105
>You're saying you guys don't do differential geometry and classical mechanics at high school?
I said: we do classical mechanics in high school but without the symplectic geometry. And no, we don't do differential geometry in any way comparable to the contents of a differential geometry introductory lecture at university, and I highly doubt it's done anywhere else in the world. Otherwise show me a 17 year old kid who can write down the definition of a manifold...

>> No.2704182

>>2704159
>But seriously difftential geometry is a 3rd year math course.
I hope you mean 3rd year university. Else you might have a skewed notion of what differential geometry is...

>> No.2704197

In canada we dont do quatum mechanics but we do some old quantum theory. Black body radiation, Plancks constant, wave particle duality, double slit etc

QM is left till 2nd or 3rd year University.

>> No.2704244

>>2704039
>let's not forget that learning QM without having seen the formalisms of classical mechanics is ridiculous, especially since the Lagrangian/Hamiltonian formalisms were imperative to the mathematical formulation/discovery of QM.

funny thing, we didn't learn hamiltonians before QM at all at MIT for my undergrad. Every grad student during recitations would bring it up, be told we've never seen that before, then have a fit over how fucking stupid it is to let such a thing happen.

For MIT fags, hamiltonians would be seen in 8.09, but for some reason, 8.04/5/6 must be taken first. I think they're doing an IAP class for this now, but one month of study is hardly the same.trololol.

>> No.2704257

>>2704182
Oh yes that what i mean. Sorry for bieng vague

>> No.2704274
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2704274

>>2704182

Hey it's me again, the guy from the Kansas highschool.

We do differential geometry our freshman year here. In fact, I'm currently working on a problem set that uses Ricci flow and Riemannian manifolds to show that current climate change model's prediction of heat distribution in the atmosphere are flawed, and that the whole thing is a hoax.

Next week we get into modeling complex gene transfer through populations using vector bundles to show that evolution isn't real.

Pic related, it's one of my classmates at my Kansas highschool

Pic related.

>> No.2704280

Iowa fag here. In Davenport, my home city, our public school system offers the following:

AP Calculus AB&BC
AP Physics
AP Biology
AP History
AP Chemistry
AP English
AP Spanish, French, German

My first physics class, which was my junior year in high school, was taught by a very eccentric man. After feeding us the simple algebraic solutions for the variables in classical Newtonian mechanics, he would talk conceptually about the crazy shit in physics and try to help us expand our general understanding of the scientific world. Great teacher.

>> No.2704298

>>2704244
damn. well it turns out here at ETH they do the same with math students...the (for physicists compulsory) lecture on classical mechanics and its abstract treatment isn't compulsory for math students. Still, many of them end up in our QM lectures and seem to be doing just fine...those bastards are seem to be really more intelligent than us physicists...oh well.
Oh, and if you're wondering why math students should be taking any physics lecture at all, ETH actually makes them take all the physicists courses up to fourth semester. They say it's some kind of tradition to keep the bond between physicists and mathematicians...quite poetic really but you hear mathfags throwing a tantrum about it every day :D

>> No.2704334

>>2704274
>Next week we get into modeling complex gene transfer through populations using vector bundles to show that evolution isn't real.
Too bad you're just trolling (or kidding should I say), but I'd fap to it if there were a direct application of vector bundles to molecular biology!
Oh and rhetoric implication that Ricci flow and Riemannian manifolds are of comparable complexity got me loling nicely, well played sir.

>> No.2704345

I'm from central Oklahoma. At my high school, science was optional after 10th grade and math was optional after 11th. We took biology in 10th and could go on to do physics, chemistry, ecology, or human anatomy & physiology if we chose to. Math ended after Algebra II, but you could go on to pre-calculus. Anything higher level was dealt with by the local colleges for students who wanted to co-enroll and test into advanced classes. I only met one person who ever did, and it was for political science, not real science or mathematics.

Honestly, I'm glad I didn't take physics or chemistry in high school. I know people who did, and the teachers were sadistic bastards who wanted absolute perfection from everyone. I'm not sure if I ever heard of anyone passing those classes without mental breakdowns.