/sci/ - Science & Math

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Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:09:43 2011 No.2647291 [Reply] [Original]

> "I also wish to exclaim that the more people living on this planet, the better our lives will be as our lives are already enriched by most everyone around us and in our past.

>China, as an example has a population of 1.3 Billion, yet its total land area is roughly equal to the US, it is still able to feed its people, AND it still have vast regions of unpopulated desert.

>China is 73rd on the population density list, below Germany for example.

>If the world (land region) had the same population density as Germany (which is really quite low), then there could be around 34 billion people. In reality we should be able to have 1 trillion people on our land area, 20 trillion if we were to apply all our current technologies and take advantage of the vast sea surface, under sea regions, and under ground regions.

>The US actually has to import food from China because we have let our farms and waterways steadily decline over the past 40 years.

>So what exactly is the problem? What is the wall preventing us from having more kids?"

discuss.

>>	skinnyfag !VIRGIN/FJM Sat Mar 5 11:10:43 2011 No.2647298 nice source, also, all our resources are running o9ut as it is, this is retarded

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:11:43 2011 No.2647301 Yes, if we had infinite energy we could support infinite people.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:11:43 2011 No.2647304 >he US actually has to import food from China because we have let our farms and waterways steadily decline over the past 40 years. >has to What fucking bullshit. >>2647298 >all our oil isrunning o9ut as it is, fixed for you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:13:43 2011 No.2647310 OP is a troll, but also irrelevant. Our population is set to peak around 9 or 10 billion shortly after 2050 and then go into decline. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_population_growth.html

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:13:43 2011 No.2647311
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>>2647291
>20 trillion if we were to apply all our current technologies and take advantage of the vast sea surface, under sea regions, and under ground regions.

20 trillion people?

Are you serious???

That would add so much mass to Earth it would throw everything in the solar system out of it's orbit!!!

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:13:43 2011 No.2647313

Maybe America has industries other than agriculture which are more profitable, such as software development and other such high-tech enterprises, making it more efficient to trade the goods produced for food than produce it in America?
l2 comparative advantage.

Also,
>AND it still have vast regions of unpopulated desert.
Lawl.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:14:43 2011 No.2647315 Who are you quoting? If it is an ignorant poorly educated person with little social influence (which it most likely is) then there is really no need for argument. The source is important.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:17:43 2011 No.2647324

>>2647311
I see what you did there.

But even if you imported 20 trillion people to Earth from elsewhere, that would be a tiny, tiny fraction of the Earth's current total mass.

The Earth is about 6*10^24 kg. A generous overestimate of 100kg per person, 2*10^13 people, so 2*10^15 kg. Yeah, not even close.

But again, this is irrelevant, and your comment is a clever troll. 9/10

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:17:43 2011 No.2647327 >>2647315 >little social influence SCIENCE IS NOT A FUCKING POPULARITY CONTEST

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:20:43 2011 No.2647336 >>2647324 thanx bro

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:21:43 2011 No.2647340

>>2647327
If the person is uneducated, then it's less likely spending time investigating their argument will bear fruit.
If the person is socially unimportant, then it's almost certain that bothering to come up with counterarguments won't have any influence on policy

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:21:43 2011 No.2647341 >>2647311 nope http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=[20trilion]%20*%20[mass%20of%20human]%2F[mass%20of%20earth]&amp ;t=ff3tb01

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:22:43 2011 No.2647345 >>2647327 No, but society and government policy is. Which affects all of us.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:24:43 2011 No.2647351 >>2647345 Ah, so the people worth ARGUING with are those who make a difference, whether or not they are a good SOURCE of information and ideas. That makes more sense.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:24:43 2011 No.2647349 >>2647340 LADY GAGA FOR PRESIDENT OF SCIENCE She's socially important, she must be right! Also, Al Gore.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:26:43 2011 No.2647353

>>2647291
>The US actually has to import food from China because we have let our farms and waterways steadily decline over the past 40 years.

lolno.

We still export thousands of tons of grain year. We only import a few things from china because they are cheaper than homegrown.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:29:43 2011 No.2647359 >>2647341 You are so trolled. No mass is added by the birth of anyone.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:38:43 2011 No.2647389 >>2647359 I think he knows that, just like >>2647324

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:38:43 2011 No.2647391

First and foremost are you arguing that we could fit 20 trillion people or that we could also feed them all? Because im sure that we could fit more people than that and we could never feed that amount. We could feed anything between 1 billion to 10 billion depending on the amount of resources consumed possibly even fewer when current resources run out.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:41:43 2011 No.2647399 >>2647349 Ever wonder why people care more when Oprah spreads woo, psuedoscience and anti-vaxxer propaganda than they do when some crazy lady working at the post office does it?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:43:43 2011 No.2647402 The estimated carrying capacity for humans on earth (assuming we have no modern conveniences) would be about 3 billion. We have surpassed that by more than double. When we run out of oil, and we WILL run out of oil, shit's gonna hit the fan.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:45:43 2011 No.2647406 >>2647402 >The estimated carrying capacity for humans on earth (assuming we have no modern conveniences) would be about 3 billion. What bullshit.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:50:43 2011 No.2647422

>>2647402
>>2647406
The carrying capacity is entirely dependant of the amount of consumption. If we all lived like africans then there could easily be over 10 billion people. If we lived like americans then there can be only couple of billion. Once we run out of most important resources like oil and phosphorus and rare earth minerals then the capacity could be even less.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:53:43 2011 No.2647431

The carry capacity for earth without oil was reached by 1900, the carrying capacity for earth without coal was reached in 1820. We're beyond fucked at this point. We need to become fascist imperailist genocidal assholes in order to survive the coming times. Either we fuck ethics or we're fucked.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:53:43 2011 No.2647433 >>2647359 when to population hits 20trilion, we will most likely have the tec to harvest resources from space

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:56:43 2011 No.2647443 >>2647433 We will have the tech because there is no way to 20 trillion people to exist on the earth without massive exploitation of space

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:56:43 2011 No.2647444 >>2647406 >What bullshit. You're not making a point here. You're just mad because the truth scares you.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:57:43 2011 No.2647448 >>2647444 Nice citation, bro. "Carrying capcity" is more a clusterfuck than global warming. There ARE NO credible sources.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:57:43 2011 No.2647446 File: 111 KB, 255x288, 1290282495661.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2647422 YOU DON'T FUCKING "RUN OUT" OF PHOSPHORUS AND RARE EARTH MINERALS 10/10 FFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUU

>>	Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. Sat Mar 5 11:58:43 2011 No.2647451 >create Dyson ring >terraform said Dyson ring >no overpopulation problems Now we just need to invent a material that would be able to withstand the colossal forces involved.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:58:43 2011 No.2647452 LOL at those people who think that technologiez and scienze will save us herp herp.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 11:58:43 2011 No.2647453 >>2647443 >>2647433 Utterly irrelevant, we're going to hit 10 billion and then go into decline naturally. >>2647310

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:04:43 2011 No.2647477

>>2647446
Well with current consumption those reserves won't last even contury.

>>2647451
We should definitely invent magick and revive the unicorns while we are at it.

You do relize that oil and other materials will run out in a couple of centuries and even the beginning of the construction of anything like dyson ring won't be feasible for many centuries. And it's tough to head to space from devastated society that is the remnants of our own after some time.

Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. Sat Mar 5 12:07:43 2011 No.2647488
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>>2647477
Yes, because space-based solar power, 4th generation nuclear, electrolyzing water into hydrogen/oxygen and fusion are impossible and will never ever be able to replace coal. Oh, and deep sea mining and landfill mining don't exist either and never will. And I won't even start on asteroid mining.
Take your FUCK NO HUMANITY attitude elsewhere, faggot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:07:43 2011 No.2647487 >>2647477 >phosphorus and rare earth minerals >Well with current consumption those reserves won't last even contury. Am I being trolled? Or are you just phenomenally stupid?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:13:43 2011 No.2647519 why don't we just plant food and build solar panels? that'll solve the energy crisis AND world hunger. I should be a polyticion

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:15:43 2011 No.2647527

>>2647519
We already make enough food, and we will continue to do so. Starvation is because of assholes and corruption.

The energy crisis is a greater concern, and it will suck, but we'll get over it. We still have nuclear, solar, etc. Coal as a backup.

>>	Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. Sat Mar 5 12:15:43 2011 No.2647528 >>2647519 My god, MAKE THIS MAN PRESIDENT I'm serious, you sound like you have a better plan than a lot of world leaders.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:18:43 2011 No.2647542

>>2647487
The reserves wont last a century. Of course the atoms are there but they are not neatly packed in thick layers. For example now phosphorus is mined out of the ground. Then it can be shipped in huge amounts to farms and where it is needed. After those reserves run out it is dispersed to thousand different places. It will be really hard to get it after that. We will recover but billions of people can die in starvation when phosphorus is not cheaply awailable.

>>2647488
Those technologies are possible but dont exist now and there are no serious efforts to create them today. With capitalism rich nations, those same that have the capacity to put solar power to space, can just buy oil or invade nations that have it. This is a problem because people will die in the poorer nations. Also when the oil finally runs out and we finally need those space solar power plants are they there?

Im talking about time scales of 10-100 years. When do you think dyson rings will exist? (Btw dyson rings could be impossible because they require some material with same strengts as strong nuclear force, but there are of course other similar options in the future.)

>>	Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. Sat Mar 5 12:20:43 2011 No.2647561 File: 21 KB, 1000x600, tharsissolar.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2647542 >Also when the oil finally runs out and we finally need those space solar power plants are they there? ahem

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:22:43 2011 No.2647567 >>2647542 >Of course the atoms are there but they are not neatly packed in thick layers. The concentrations are higher in electronics in landfills than they ever were in minerals. Fuck you.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:22:43 2011 No.2647570

>>2647519
>>2647528
That is the exact reason why the current situation is bad. Is he the president?(could be but probably not) Politics and stupidity is the reason that prevent all kinds of great things and also tend to block rational and farsighted plans that would benefit in the long run. Both our political and economic systems ore shit and they wil prevent good things.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:24:43 2011 No.2647579 >>2647567 Phosphorus, I'll admit, warrants greater attention. But this "run out" bullshit is offensively wrong.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:24:43 2011 No.2647578 File: 179 KB, 1024x768, AllyMcBeal03[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2647561 >Implying I am not fucking hot lawyers and you at best are fucking gooey eyed dumb girls.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:26:43 2011 No.2647591

>>2647567
That is probably true in the rare earth mineral case but not in the phosphorus. But is the same true to extraction capability and amount of stuff in one landfill? Im more conserned about the phosphorus anyway. Because lack of rare earth minerals won't probably kill so many people than lack of food.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:26:43 2011 No.2647595 >>2647591 Agreed, closing the loop on our use of phosphorus is more critical.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:29:43 2011 No.2647604

>>2647561
The technology is here but the problem is are the physical solar power planst there and the infrastructure to use them globally present once oil runs out? We need quite big pile of solar power to replace oil.

Also is it even possible/economical to go to space once oil runs out and refined materials become more expencive. There will also probably be more war and combat for the remaining resources so that will make the situation even worse.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:31:43 2011 No.2647609

>>2647591
You really, really should stop making simplistic statements that are clearly bullshit. When you mean "our phosphorus mines will run out, and the phosphorus is currently hard to recover after use in agriculture", don't say "we're going to run out of phosphorus and oil". You strawman your own argument.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:32:43 2011 No.2647616

>>2647604
Oil isn't going to run out suddenly. There will be a good decade or two of high prices where demand outstrips supply. That's where we'll make the transition, though it will be expensive. Then demand will drop sharply, but only after we are mostly done with the transition.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:33:43 2011 No.2647621

>>2647595
Yes it is. It quite hard to do also. Because phosphorus goes from concentrated rock to human waste and biomass. So we will need huge collection networks to get it to resycle. Luckily the waste collection network is present in many places alredy so it could be done only with few modifications. There is still problems with farming and phosphorus drifting to rivers and seas.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:34:43 2011 No.2647628

In the longevity/immortality threads people always scream over-population. Truth is this is not an acute problem, at least not on a global scale.

Only 90 million people living in Russia for instance, that#s a huge fuckin' area.
In Europe the population will actually decrease over the next decades due to low birth rates.
'

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:38:43 2011 No.2647642

>>2647609
My second post in the subject

>reserves won't last even contury

Learn to read. I made the correction because people don't seem to understand that by running out i obviously meant that the easily accessible(mines) stuff will run out. And if collection methods are not in place when reserves run out then there are n phosporous to be used by the farming industry.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:40:43 2011 No.2647652

>>2647642
The fault is yours if your ideas are not communicated accurately. Your first post on the topic:
>Once we run out of most important resources like oil and phosphorus and rare earth minerals then the capacity could be even less.

You group all three of these together. OIL runs out. When it's burned, it's gone. And then you put it in the same category as phosphorus and rare earth minerals?

Anyway, clear communication is hard sometimes. :/

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:43:43 2011 No.2647664

>>2647616
Are you sure? That sound kind of rational solution but what if people instead of
"we are going to run out in couple of decades so lets start to replace our infrastructure now"
react by
"those sandniggers are sittin on the oil we coud be using so lets invade. We just blame it for something like dictators or chinese or shit"
and what hapens when many nations get the same idea at the same time?

If people could cooperate we wouldn't be having these problems.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:44:43 2011 No.2647671 >>2647628 Land area or Europe are not the problem anyway so kind of moot point.

Anonymous Sat Mar 5 12:48:43 2011 No.2647688

>>2647652
I admit my mistake on here. Something that is clear in my mind might not be so clear to someone that reads my text.

But just to be an asshole here tecnically oil can also be made so the infastructure doesn't need to be changed. We can use something like algae to produce it. Only thing that runs out is the easily accessible reserves.

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 16:40:43 2011 No.2648911 >>2647291 So....what about running out of USABLE land and water, which is needed for food/water/resources?

>>	Anonymous Sat Mar 5 20:07:43 2011 No.2649974 lol

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