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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2481610 No.2481610 [Reply] [Original]

So /sci/, I come to you asking for information about alternative medication. I would like to get as many different perspectives and opinions as I can, be it about the pros and cons of chiropractic, homeopathic, natural medication, etc. Even ideas about how regular medicine and the industry itself should operate are welcome.

I can't seem to find much information on the subject that is not horribly biased. Please, try to keep trolling to a minimum and try to have a good, intelligent discussion.

Thanks.

>> No.2481640

>I can't seem to find much information on the subject that is not horribly biased.
No, really?

>> No.2481662

Cons of most alternative medicines such as homoeopathy: They have failed all double-blind trials with the results showing that the alternative medicine is at best a placebo. People who support alternative medicines often do so because of mistrust for standard medicine but do so without applying rigorous scientific method to alternative medicine.

People who practise alternative medicine are either self-deluded, uneducated to its limited aid, or wholly dishonest, ie/ conmen.

There is no more discussion in the scientific community on whether these alternative medicines are good, just as there is no discussion in the biological community as to whether evolution exists - the discussions are manufactured by the companies that produce the products for money, thinktanks, religions, and the people that support them.

>> No.2481673

My personal experiences:
I had skin tags on my chin that disappeared after a four-day fast.
I had a recurring staph infection (also on my face, unfortunately) that did not respond to antibiotics but was cured with garlic. Also left a nice chemical burn, but I'll take that over the staph.

>> No.2481686

If it worked it wouldn't be called alternative medicine, it wold just be called medicine.

>> No.2481707

>>2481662

Could the same thing be said about pharmaceutical companies? I just find that a lot of the stuff put out there is for treatment of the symptom and not the actual problem. How come most medical practices don't get to the root of the problem?

>> No.2481729

>>2481662

this is just plain false, not much more to refute there

here's one:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20868469
you might also be aware that fish oil is now a prescription in the US, for high trigylcerides
so all the years alternative medicine advocated for fish oil it was non-sense, but then it becomes a prescription drug and it magically is now medicine?

the trick to alternative medicine is to find the stuff that is on it's way to becoming standard medicine, because American medicine has been set back several decades by cow-towing to pharmaceutical profits...deal with it

>> No.2481753

>>2481707
Whatever issues someone has with big pharma medicine does not mean they should turn to tested and failed alternative medicines which promise health and well being. It's a question of science against faith: I'd hazard a guess that faith in alternative medicine and a distrust of science (perhaps through lack of knowledge or belief in conspiracy) is why many people who take alternative medicine to soothe their ails do so.

>> No.2481756

>so all the years alternative medicine advocated for fish oil it was non-sense, but then it becomes a prescription drug and it magically is now medicine?

If you claim 1 million herbs/items are super healthy without evidence which are being ignored by science you're going to get a hit eventually...

>> No.2481764

>>2481729
No not at all, I meant those that have been tested and failed or are simply spirit based, ie/ praying for health. Fish oil was tested and works fine, hence its acceptance. Incidentally, snake oil is actually a good health aid - the meme of snake oil comes from alternative medicine salesmen selling cure-alls that 'actually work' instead of 'that Chinese snake-oil'.

>> No.2481771

>>2481753

there is a very harsh reality that many hardcore science adherents fall victim to...its called trust.....you trust the pharmaceutical companies and you trust the scientists working for them and you trust the publications that outlet their science

they have profits to protect, and if the cure for any given illness is 10 cents worth of garlic they will in no way shape or form every in a million years publish this knowledge

>> No.2481775

Homoeopathy is nothing but a con run by snake oil salesman and people with delusions. The process used makes it literally impossible for homoeopathic 'medicine' to do anything more than a placebo, the stuff is so dilute it may not even contain any of the chemicals that supposedly do the healing.

>> No.2481776

>>2481610
So, a 60X is diluted to 1/10th its original content 60 times. Take a mole of medication. That means 6.022*10^23 molecules, very roughly, and with a molecule as heavy as water is 18 grams - a lot of medication. Now dilute it: multiply by 10^(-60) for the 60X method of dilution. Notice, now, that you have 6.022*10^(-37) molecules left of your dilution. This isn't even a single molecule. This is 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000006022 of a molecule. And we know that a molecule can't actually be split up like that, so this actually represents the probability of finding a single molecule of medicine inside 18 grams or more of homeopathic medicine.

The entire logic behind homeopathics is ridiculous. It's sugar water, and they make a killing off of it. The people who profit on it are scum.

>> No.2481786

>>2481756

ever hear of "pipeline"? try looking into curcuminoids from turmeric or resveratrol from grapes, there are many more examples, hallmark laboratory studies have been done on numerous natural, non-prescription products, with GRAS status...saying the science doesn't exist is willful ignorance based on blind trust/faith in pharmaceutical companies

for all the atheist scientists, you'd think they would be a little more critically observant of the only science that directly influences their health

>> No.2481790

no one here is supporting homeopathy, you're shadowboxing

>> No.2481791

>>2481771
I can see what you say about big pharmaceuticals having a vested interest in keeping out cheap solutions to their medicine, but then why would another scientist who has tested the idea? You're essentially implying that everyone is in cahoots to keep the common guy down so they have to buy expensive medicine, which sounds too outlandish to be plausible.

>> No.2481796

All you need to know is this; You know what they called Alternative Medicine that's been proven to work?

Medicine.

>> No.2481798

>>2481791

wrong, there is a ton of science on natural products like garlic...check out pubmed and do one word searches for curcuminoids or garlic or allicin or magnesium or thiamine and this list goes on

>> No.2481801

>>2481796

yea, about 10-20 years after their proven to work they call them medicine, if their is a profit to be made

>> No.2481805

>>2481798
...then what is the issue? Did someone publish a journal saying garlic is just a placebo? Did someone say otherwise? Or are you arguing against nothing?

>> No.2481806

>>2481771

>you trust the pharmaceutical companies
>they have profits to protect

.....are you retarded? All drugs are regulated by the FDA, it's not like these companies can put out just any product they want, read up on the legalization of thalidomide

>> No.2481820

here's an excellent one:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19060427

this was published more than two years ago. how long before the average(or any) family physician will be telling people about this?

this is the issue, samrt people must go to alternative practitioners(or be able to do the science themselves) if they want to know the most up to date science on natural products

>> No.2481834

>>2481806

You're the retard. If you think the FDA is looking out for people's health or keeps harmful drugs out of the market you're delusional.

>> No.2481836

>>2481786
You were good until you brought in atheism. Atheism has nothing to do with homeopathy.
FIRST THINGS FIRST. if you have a dart board, and you throw a thousand darts at it, one or two are bound to hit spot on.
There are LOTS of remedies from alt. medicines that work. The problem is that for every remedy that works, there are twenty that dont.
Alot of it is guess work, pseudoscience and placebo.
Pharmacys however ARE NOT a conspiracy. It is in their best interest to sell lots of meds to you at a high price. Yes. its also in their best interest to make sure the meds work. We have overseeing boards making sure that the meds do work. If they dont, they get recalled. If they dont get recalled in time, teh pharma companies get sued. And they get sued ALOT.
Pharma. companies want to sell drugs to you. Homeopathic snake oil salesmen want to sell snake oil to you calling it drugs. They both want to make money.
The difference is that pharma. companies have overseeing organisations making sure that there is not a single misstep in making the drugs. There is no conspiracy among scientists either. All pharma companies have to publish to make sure that their method is legit. And there are hundreds of scientists that peer review this work. Even better there are LOTS of scientists with interest NOT in helping the "big evil pharma companies", but instead taking them down. Partly for the recognition it gains them, and partly because if you're a rival company, its a good way to kill off competition.
TL:DNR: there is no conspiracy. Get over yourself.

>> No.2481838

You know what they call alternative medicine that works?
Medicine.

-Tim Minchin


Ah, I just see that someone has posted this already, well, I'm gonna do it again, cause it should be thread end.

>> No.2481841

>>2481834

half of all drugs approved in the last decade have been recalled within 10 years

I think even prayers are right half the time, aren't they?
looks like the supposed "gold standard" of scientific medicine isn't actually batting much better than religion or charlantism

>> No.2481848

>>2481838

because you have no answer to this post
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19060427
>>2481820

>> No.2481854

Homeopathic medicine has a lot of fake cures, yes, but quite a bit more than you think is based on biology and has been used for more thousands of years. Chinese medicine, for instance.

Just because something can be cured for little or no cost doesn't mean it's a placebo. People have just been brainwashed into thinking that only expensive pills can cure anything. The reality of the matter is that 90% of diseases can be avoided/cured with natural products and proper eating.

>> No.2481857

>>2481836

are you still shadow-boxing homeopathy?

NOBODY IS DEFENDING HOMEOPATHY

>> No.2481860

>>2481854
>Chinese medicine

Yeah, because crushed Tiger Bones is WONDERFUL for your health!

>> No.2481861

>>2481854

oh fucking A,

please get your idiotic strawmen out of here

>> No.2481863

>>2481841
>half of all drugs approved in the last decade have been recalled within 10 years

Yet you admit that at least half of them work.

There has never been one scientifically proven case of prayer working. (Excluding the Placebo Effect)

>> No.2481873

none of you "proven alternative=medicine" cadre can answer the simple fact that their is a huge amount of scientific, peer reviewed publications proving the benefits of numerous GRAS natural products/foods......yet exactly 0% of family physicians will actually tell you about them

>> No.2481875

>>2481854
Homeopathic medicine cannot work, its impossible, Unless it uses some kind of magic, taking a sugar pill that may not even contain the healing chemical will do nothing.

>> No.2481878

>>2481610
Guys, let's just all agree that non-science talking about the natural world is bullshit, and that modern medicine barely qualifies as science.

There, everyone happy?

>> No.2481880

>>2481875
The placebo effect would like a word with you.

>> No.2481883

>>2481610

Modern medicine is based on taking the voodoo "alternative" and finding out what actually works within it.
The bullshit, ie

>chiropractic, homeopathic, natural medication

is not used because it -does not work-

"natural remedies" such as Valerian are in fact recommended by doctors for minor conditions.

So yes, witch doctors can, and do, successfully treat disease, however, this is only a result of decades of random experience with random drugs and psychology. Sorting the wheat from the chaff dramatically improves results and treatment.

>>2481776

That is not to say that every single aspect of bullshit "medicine" does not work.
Homeopathy does actually work, but it has nothing to do with the actual "treatment", rather, having someone to talk to about you illness and having them tell you

A) you will get better
B) how to get better in a convincing way

has been proven to help in even serious illness.

The conclusion? Being a true doctor is about more than diagnosis and dispensation. It is about giving people hope and the belief they can get better while treating them with clinically proven medication where it is needed.

>> No.2481884

>>2481860

>Yeah, because heart diseases, birth defects, diabetes, oh hell every side effect of prescription medication is WONDERFUL for your health!

See what I did there?

>>2481861

Oh the irony.

>> No.2481886

>>2481878

why should anyone be happy with a pseudo-scientific institution monopolizing the health of an entire population/continent?

>> No.2481891

>>2481886
Are they happy about it? I meant to restrict that statement to the US btw. Sorry. Are the people in the US happy with their health care? Hell no.

>> No.2481896

>>2481886

>why should anyone be happy with a pseudo-scientific institution monopolizing the health of an entire population/continent?

You mean like pharmaceutical companies?

>> No.2481901

>>2481896
At least they use scientists.

>> No.2481903

>>2481834

That's the fucking definition of what the FDA does retard. And statements like these

>half of all drugs approved in the last decade have been recalled within 10 years

Are completely empty without a valid source, take your paranoia/fantasies to /x/

>> No.2481904

Also, everyone in need this thread needs to watch this series of videos:

Nicholas Humphrey Interview (1/4) - Richard Dawkins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1AQPue7FEM&feature=BF&list=SP2C2ECE701B589981&index=1

Don't be downplaying the importance of the placebo effect, and its utility.

>> No.2481923

heres one from Brown, 1996:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8788216

garlic is anti-cancer....it was known to science in 1996

no Dr. Oz mention, no family physician mentions, no member of the medical community anywhere will tell you about this...this is why you have to see alternative medical practitioners

>> No.2481926

>>2481901

So what? Their work is wasted anyway. Scientists can go out and murder thousands every day, but it's okay, because they're scientists.

>> No.2481935

>>2481926
>So what?
What do you mean, so what? I'd rather have my medicine scientifically tested and proven to work thank you!

>Scientists can go out and murder thousands every day

What the fuck are you talking about?

>> No.2481937

>>2481903

>That's the fucking definition of what the FDA does retard.

Yeah, and the army is fighting for our freedoms, police officers are looking out for public safety, and the government cares about the people.

You sure are funny, kid.

>> No.2481938

>>2481896
Pharma companies are definitely not pseudo science. The general population is their guinea pig for their experimental medication.

>> No.2481939

>>2481903

oh yeah? how many drugs were recalled in '09?

http://knowledgebase.findlaw.com/kb/2010/Oct/178819.html

>> No.2481949

>>2481935

My point was that just because they're "scientists" doesn't mean they're some holy entity. They're just working for a company that makes money at the expense of peoples' health and well-being.

>I'd rather have my medicine scientifically tested and proven to work

It might work, but at what cost? These medication are NOT created to solve the core issue, only the symptoms. Why sell one cheap remedy when you can sell expensive drugs over years that never even solve the problem?

>> No.2481952

>>2481939

~500x more than were approved in '09.

http://knol.google.com/k/new-drug-approvals-usa-fda-2009#

>> No.2481964

>>2481939

you said

>half of all drugs approved in the last decade have been recalled within 10 years

The source you provided does not support the statement you have made that 50% of drugs have been recalled. "record amount of drugs recalled" is a relative term. Ergo you're wrong, ergo shut the fuck up already, jesus

>> No.2481970

>>2481939
Slightly offtopic: you know what really annoys me? The Republicans are more for medicine that has not been tested, and they are also against the FDA.

The government in general over time has weakened the FDA.
Also, drugs being called back shows that the system has a kickback action where it is righting itself. Alternative medicines don't get called back, generally because they don't have the same safety checks on them.

>> No.2481972

pharma companies claim to know all the(scientifically proven) facts of medicine and they very well might.

but they are keeping a ton of info from both MDs and the general public regarding the efficacy of numerous natural products and foods

>> No.2481977

>>2481949
And just because they work for a drug company doesn't meant they're some automatically evil scumbag only out for money

>> No.2481979

>>2481964

recalling 1400+ drugs in one year isn't proof enough?

can you recite another prayer to the pharmaceutical establishment please?

>> No.2481980

>>2481939

and FYI

"the FDA linked 19 deaths and hundreds of allergic reactions to the contaminant"

You just proved yourself wrong, lol

>> No.2481986

>>2481980

lol...that was to a single contaminant in a single drug, heparin...you are dumber than fuck

>> No.2481988

>>2481979

either you're a troll, or extremely stupid.

Either way I'm done here

>> No.2481998

>>2481988

time for pharmaceutical company group prayer?

light some incense for me will ya?

>> No.2481999

>>2481972

Except this information has been known for thousands of years and has been used extensively. You just have to search for it. The internet is a great source. Why people still believe this stuff doesn't work is beyond me. Do your research and try it out. If you have a rash and taking an herb every day makes it go away, it's not "placebo effect"

I'd trust a herbal remedy with no side effects and well-documented use over a deadly pill rushed to the market any day.

>> No.2482009

>>2481999

the reason people don't believe it is because MDs lie to them constantly about it, suing their power of authority in the medical field to force people into believing that prescription drugs are the only proven treatments

>> No.2482012

>>2481977

They're working for a company with a known track record for purposely disregarding the health of the people taking its drugs so yes, they're evil. Since they're getting paid for it, yes, they're out for money.

>> No.2482020

>>2482009

That's really the crux of the issue. People place too much faith in doctors, almost to the point of godly status. And yes, it is faith, because people will trust a doctor's word without doing any research of their own.

>> No.2482023
File: 73 KB, 480x640, men-sucking-men_4_3569_si.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2482023

Dear /sci/

Stop feeding the troll

-THX

>> No.2482025

This argument really should stop. the idiots who are paranoid towards modern medicine and pharmaceuticals aren't hurting anyone but themselves. Leave them be, because if they want to eat some crushed leaves under the pretense that it will cure their cancer/stroke/heart disease/car accident/being shot in the face/etc, then the only people being harmed is themselves. Meanwhile, the rest of us will live long, healthy, happy lives because we aren't irrationally paranoid.

>> No.2482031

>>2481999
nice trips.
Same here. I like herbal remedies, although that market seems to be cluttered with snake oil. Plus a lot of people can't seem to distinguish it from homeopathy.

>> No.2482040

>>2482023

>opened gay porn to make an ad hominem attack

the definition of butt-hurt

>> No.2482043

>>2482025

You should probably remove your head, along with the pharma companies dicks, from your ass.

Enjoy your diseases caused by, you guessed it: prescription medication!

>> No.2482046
File: 42 KB, 450x338, medical-gay-porn.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2482046

>>2482040

>> No.2482049

>>2482025
That is not always applicable though, many of these delusional people convince others that their methods are preferable to actual medicine. At that point they cross a line into causing harm to others by causing them to forgo real medical care. Like those people who convince others prayer or herbal remedies are better than chemotherapy.

>> No.2482055

>>2482031

exactly...so why do MDs leave people to fend for themselves in that market?

probably because the pharmaceutical companies payed them to.

>> No.2482057
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2482057

>> No.2482061

>>2482046

>is now enjoying gay porn, considering trolling back alleys for dick

always carry a condom man, you know those gays have the AIDS right? we wouldn't want anyone to get sick now.

>> No.2482062

>>2482049

There are always people out there willing to make money at other peoples' expense, but that doesn't mean none of them work. You just have to do some research and wade through the bullshit. Much like any other decision you make in life.

>> No.2482067
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2482067

>>2482061

>> No.2482068

>>2482057


>fapping so hard, must come on gays and cloves of garlic

>> No.2482071

>>2482025
>the idiots who are paranoid towards modern medicine and pharmaceuticals aren't hurting anyone but themselves
...and their children, whose health they control. Like those Jehovah's Witnesses who don't get blood transfusions and let their children die because the Bible tells you not to drink blood.

>> No.2482079

>>2482067

>enjoys gay porn more than logical,science based debate, considering joining the military for all the newly legalized gay sex

>> No.2482082

>>2482071

yea, and i'm sure injecting kids with 30+ shots before the age of 1 isn't hurting them either

>> No.2482084

>>2482062
Most rational people are never going to use a treatment that has no evidence backing it up, I do not care how many generations of old women say X cures Y, until its scientifically verified its not worth it.

>> No.2482088

>>2482071

That's not really related, since it has to do with religion. Any decision made in superstition is full retard.

Again, placing homeopathy, religious beliefs, and natural medication on the same level is absurd. Natural remedies work. Some of them.

>> No.2482089

>>2482082
Judging from the track record of wiping out smallpox, and nearly wiping out Polio, I think those vaccines are doing a pretty good job. It's nuts like you that cause thousands (?) of kids each year to die from Polio in the modern world.

>> No.2482095

>>2482084

orly? grandma is now listed by the NLM? since 1996? you don't say....http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8788216

>> No.2482100

>>2482082
Wait are you trying to argue against vaccination? I am sorry but people who object to vaccinating children have issues. Making your kid have a vaccine massively reduces the chance of illness, not letting your child have blood just proves you do not love them and put superstition before your childs life.

>> No.2482104

>>2482089

oh, you mean those vaccines that haven't existed in the US for more than 20 years right?

>> No.2482112

>>2482084

Anecdotal evidence does have some merit. Verified or not, you can't deny what you see with your own eyes. Testing it out on yourself and seeing results is just as scientific and it doesn't require you to trust an unrelated person's word.

>> No.2482120

>>2482095
Why did you deliberately ignore half of my post? If a natural remedy has been scientifically verified then by all means it can be considered valid like I said in my post.

>> No.2482124

>>2482082
uh actually its not much worse than existing, there are a LOT more viral particles/bacterial proteins/strange polysacridies out there, and if you want your kid to get polio.. well the problem is, if your kid doesn't get the shot, my underage kid (doesn't exist but this is for example's sake) could get polio from your infected kid, and now he's got polio you jerk. Vaccines aren't just for your kids, they are for my kids, because if not enough people get vaccines, welp now every kid too young for X Y Z shot is at risk, and my ancestors did not fight for FREEDOM to get polio and die because of some hippie.

>> No.2482128

>>2482100

nobody said vaccines were bad....i said injections were bad

all vaccinations can be given as a nasal spray with zero preservatives(some are done this way, usually only flu tho)

the reason they don't do them all this way.....drumroll plz.....it'd be too expensive to manufacture (not profitable enough)

so the FDA protects the pharma profit over the children's health, yet again, what else is new?

>> No.2482129

Alternative medicine is by definition medicine that has not been shown to be effictive. If it were effective, it would be used in regular medicine. Ergo, do not spend your money on it.

>> No.2482134

>>2482104
Because they worked so well, they prove vaccines work.

>> No.2482135

>>2482084

Unless you run all the tests yourself, what makes you think you can trust this evidence? All you can do is have faith that what these people are saying is actually true. Most of the time it is not, simply because they have a business to run and your health is not exactly a concern of theirs.

>> No.2482143

>>2482055
Seriously this. If you got a doctor that can guide you through that market you got yourself a keeper. Case in point, I had a gnarly toe fungus infection. My doctor said that the medication to cure that could damage my liver. Advised me to try tree oil or soak foot in vinegar/water instead. I tried vinegar/water and in a month it was gone.

>> No.2482146

>>2482128
>Injections are bad.
Citations please. Children poke themselves all the time, let blood, skin their knees, etc., and they don't seem all that worse off for it.

>> No.2482148

>>2482129

>If it were effective, it would be used in regular medicine

Nope. If it could bring in a steady stream of money, it would be used in "regular" medicine. The word "alternative" simply refers to methods used outside the pharma companie/MD establishment.

>> No.2482155

>>2482146

so you would take an injection of just the preservatives then? because their good right?

because mercury and aluminum being injected directly into your blood is the same as scrapping your knee?

>> No.2482157

>>2482135
That's an absurd argument, nobody can test everything, that is why the peer review system exists. Or are you claiming its 'faith' to not immediately dismiss every scientific piece of work.

>> No.2482161

>>2482120
>>2482128
so you want nasal sprays? For some vaccines (like the ones the GOVERNMENT injected me with for MILITARY SERVICE (my poor ass, i was literally asspained) ) you have to send the shot right there, or else it doesn't work!

>> No.2482163

Answering questions as I go down the thread:

>>2481707
Biological systems are unbelievably complex, to get to the root of a problem requires decades of research with little of no profit (unfortunately this is what drives these machines), so it is left to university research teams to work it out. It's much easier to treat symptoms on the surface, whose mechanisms are much more understandable. As out knowledge grows more conditions will be cured completely.

>>2481729
>an observational cohort study
There's a problem to begin with, cohorts are never that reliable. I see that they're also not tested against placebo here too. I can't read the entire paper as I can't get university wifi from my flat so I can't comment on the quality of the research itself. That being said, I have no argument that many compound found in nature are either potent drugs or may lead to drug development. I've never done much research into fish oils but I have no reason to assume that they would be any different. Treating ADHD, however, is not their true calling. The issue I have is snake oil salesmen peddling their bullshit as 'science'. This leads to the promotion of ignorance and the corruption of science.

>> No.2482165

>>2482155
Citations that /any/ vaccines have ever used significant amounts of mercury, please.

>> No.2482166

>>2481786
You're a troll or an idiot for bringing atheism into this but see my above statement. Many drugs are derived from natural compounds and they are still used in the search for novel pharmaceuticals. Computers trawl through chemical structures of naturally occurring compounds, combining them with receptors to find potential targets. This obsession to 'get back to nature' is beyond me. There will never be a miracle cure, we are simply too complex for that too happen. The cures will come from decades of research,

>>2481820
Looks an interesting study, from the abstract there is little I can comment on further though. Believe me, I will look into it. Though as a side note, it is likely just a few compounds in the garlic having this effect, several quite possibly are already in clinics. Though I am speculating here.

Going to give up at this point, I see the remainder of the thread has decended into;
>strawman
>implying garlic
>shadow-boxing
>trollol
>cures cancer

>> No.2482171

I'll just leave it saying biological systems are vastly complex. Think about it, what we know today is a result of billions of years of not entirely random chance that conferred the slightest benefits each time. An organism being far more complex than anything in physics or chemical fields (inb4 butthurt scientists of other majors, I'm sure you know more about your fields than I). Taking this into account, no single pill will cure anything, there is simply too much in the way of variables. This is why immune modulation for the treatment of rheumatoid arthritis or neuropharm for depression is so difficult. There is too much to play about with with so many redundancies built in. Neither will turmeric and nutmeg cure cancer. The more we know the more we can do to alleviate these misunderstandings. Though turning 'natural' plant based compounds into alternative medicine does nothing to help, it creates a rift.

I don't know if this is making sense or if anyone will read it, I'm pretty drunk now.

>> No.2482180

>>2482165

more significant than what you ever get injected directly into your blood stream otherwise

>> No.2482185

>>2482180
>No citations, no citations everywhere. Fearmongering pseudo-science everywhere.

>> No.2482193

10% of drugs that undergo clinical trials are approved. The drugs that do get approved cannot be proven completely safe for long-term use, and the FDA is aware of this and the effects on the population are therefore monitored. Companies are sued, shut down, or taken over whenever they violate any laws and regulations. They aren't allowed to manufacturing drugs again until all violations are fixed. When a drug is harmful, it's important to keep in mind that more often than not it is the excipients of the product that are dangerous and not the drug itself, because numerous drugs share the same active ingredient.

>>2482009
It's not that these doctors force people to think prescription drugs are the only remedy. They aren't in cahoots with anyone. The truth is what they do is a job to them, a very stressful and busy job that requires them to make use of the little time they have with patients. Prescribing medication from a pharmacy is the most first-hand option they have. They don't have as much time as they'd like to speak about every option with every patient.

>>2482055
If we're talking about the traditional primary care physicians, they are paid a fixed amount depending on the number of patients they agree to care for and nothing more. Before making claims like that I would like to see proof.

>>2482128
>zero preservatives
See, the thing is preservatives let us transport vaccinations without them going bad. Other additives enhance the vaccine's effects and prevent bacteria/viral infection. Preservatives can harm in the case of an allergic reaction, but these are very rare.

>> No.2482199

The incidence of autism in vaccinated children is no different than in unvaccinated children.

Googling "incidence of autism vaccinated unvaccinated" will bring up the relevant research.

>> No.2482206

>>2482171

yea, right, so the public should just wait 20, 30, 40 years or more for MDs to recognize the positive effects of specific foods/natural products?

Alternative medicine gives the general public access to the science that the pharmaceutical companies fail to profit from

i could care less if it makes a "rift" and pharma gets all butthurt

>> No.2482210

>>2482199

so mercury in your injections is good? is that what you mean? cuz i never said autism.

>> No.2482215

>>2482210
Citations that /any/ vaccines have ever used significant amounts of mercury, please.

>> No.2482218

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUQn0HhGEk

>> No.2482226

>>2482193
>MDs gotta make money, Pharma's gotta make money, fuck people if they get sick

yea, very logical if you own stock in merck or are a med student

>> No.2482233

>>2482215

just say "i like mercury being injected into my newborn" and we can move on

>> No.2482241
File: 72 KB, 200x299, gtfo.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2482241

>>2482233
People who cannot cite their sources are not welcome here.

>> No.2482249

>>2482241

do you actually dispute that mercury is present in numerous vaccinations?

just because you ask for a citation doesn't mean you'll get it, look it up your self

>> No.2482255

/sci/ can portray all this scientific information wonderfully yet cannot properly identify a fucking troll

amazing

Keep feeding him guys

>> No.2482256

>>2482249
The burden of proof lies on you, the one making the extraordinary claim. Citations or GTFO.

>> No.2482257

>>2482233
There are multiple types of mercury, and the type that is in vaccines isn't lethal (I know, I had it and I don't have the autism, and I wouldn't mind my kids getting the same injections I did. It would be like saying OXYGEN IS A TOXIN IN OZONE FORM, or HEAVY WATER IS UNDRINKABLE BAN WATER. Through the wonders of chemistry we can make chemicals that seem alike but are nothing at all alike when it comes to their chemical properties.

>> No.2482265

>>2482256

pharmaceutical companies don't deny the existance of mercury in their vaccines, but you do, so i should provide your dumb ass citations? i think not. mercury is used as a preservative in numerous vaccines, no pharma denies this

>> No.2482277

>>2482233
>>2482233
Your newborn baby will encounter many substances which in certain doses are poisonous. The mercury that was in vaccines (modern vaccines no longer have mercury) was so small that you would require at east 500 vaccines to kill

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKujq-TcJLM
This guy is good for pointing out the obvious bullshit of new age alt medicine and you big phrama's out to get me

>> No.2482282

>>2482257

at least some one who is man enough to say he doesn't mind. at least he admits he knows it isn't good, just that he doesn't mind it...and if i misrepresented you here, then just say "i think the mercury in my childrens vaccines is good" and stop trying to hide your opinions

>> No.2482283

>>2482265
I have denied nothing. I am asking for citations.

>> No.2482290

>>2482277

so 1/500 of a lethal dose=good for babies?

really sound logic there man

>> No.2482302

>>2482283

here you go you lazy piece of pharma repeating shit
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21252391

ethyl mercury, the most toxic form of mercury humans ever come in contact with

>> No.2482306

>>2482290
>>2482290
watch the link realize what a retard your being

>> No.2482315

>>2482306

>thinks a comic routine is an argument

wtf drugs are you on?

>> No.2482316

>>2482302
Cool stuff. Note that the study you cited makes it sound like this is indeed perfectly harmless.

>> No.2482318

>>2482257
>>2482290
welcome to chemistry. Vitiams are good and without them I DIE IN HORRIBLE PAIN but if I say hyperdose on E OH GOD MY BODY or K OH GOD WHY or A (I'm black but still) OH GOD I AM ORANGE. In small doses vitiamans are good for you, in large doses they fuck with cell action.

Also, who the hell is saying Its bad. The mercury is less than I would breath for living in an urban area (lol coal plants/lol industry), and its not even the nasty methylmercury which builds in my cells and causes me to DIE PAINFULLY.

>> No.2482320

>>2482316

if you believe that, than your dumber than your trip-faggotry sounds

>> No.2482322

>>2482302
Now was that really so hard?

>After a few weeks levels were back to normal and similar to those in controls. Levels of methyl mercury (MeHg; from fish consumption) were much higher than those of EtHg. After exclusion of an outlier, the mean half-life in a population-based model was 5.6 (95% confidence interval 4.8-6.3) days. The results indicate that mercury from thimerosal is not accumulated in blood in adults. This is in accordance with short half-lives and rapid metabolism of EtHg to inorganic mercury.

See? Everything's fine. The mercury from eating fish is more of a problem than the mercury in vaccines.

>> No.2482329

>>2482318

its ethyl mercury, more toxic than elemental or methyl forms, fyi, and its being injected into your veins, thus bypassing all the bodies natural defenses in the gut or lungs

>> No.2482330

>>2482320
If I believe what? A legit looking study which claims that this particular chemical compound containing mercury isn't poisonous? I'll just refer you to the excellent explanations else-thread.

>> No.2482334

>>2482318
The results indicate that mercury from thimerosal is not accumulated in blood in adults. This is in accordance with short half-lives and rapid metabolism of EtHg to inorganic mercury.

so more or less thimerosal is pissed out, and if you are like me and fuckin love fish (I had to cut them down) you are more likely to gain mercury that way (the bad methyl) than by getting HUGE GIANT INJECTIONS.

>> No.2482335

>>2482330

it said it doesn't build up, not that it isn't poisonous...and good-damn are you stupid

>> No.2482337

>>2482320
You dun goofed, anon. You handed us a source that said everything is ok, and that the mercury in vaccines is nothing to worry about. This goes against your argument.

You are just not cut out for /sci/

>> No.2482341

>>2482334

again, ethyl mercury is far more toxic than methyl. and because it leaves your body doesn't mean it does no damage on the way

fyi, adults are not newborns

>> No.2482344

>>2482335
True. Got any citations that that particular kind of short term exposure is poisoning?

>> No.2482347

>>2482302
>>2482302
the amount given is no where near a lethal amount fuck off everything is poisonous given if your given enough of it.

>> No.2482350

you know what else is safe for adults and passes right through their bodies? water. try giving water to a newborn...its a good way to kill a newborn

>> No.2482356

>>2482344

here's one:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20816346

>> No.2482359

>>2482334
http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/10408440600845619

On tests done on monkeys (infant monkeys) there is no damage done, and we have 10 years of data which shows the substance is of least harm in small amounts. Personally I don't say mind the removal, but if it makes health insurance go up (Tricare is steady) it may not be worth it!

>> No.2482364

>>2482347

the only reason the mercury is there in the first place is to make the pharma a few extra bucks, they can just as easily make it without the mercury.

plz just say "i think mercury in my childrens vaccine is good"

because that is the argument you are making

>> No.2482372

>>2482356
Well then, this does give me pause. Unfortunately I am not well educated enough in this particular area to discuss further.

This doesn't make all injections automatically bad though.

>> No.2482375

>>2482364
Don't use strawman arguments, its pathetic.

>> No.2482378

>>2482359

their is no study of thimerosol on baby monkeys, or baby anything, because if they did it would show serious damage and pharma companies would be strung up like the money grubbing bastards they are

>> No.2482381

homeopathy is bs

Chiropracty has it's applications, as do natural remedies.

It should be remembered that these are not meant to replace traditional treatment with medication, and they are 9 times out of 10 not as effective

>> No.2482386
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2482386

>>2482378
Admit it; you're just mad because you've legitimately been disproved.

>> No.2482389

This is the one of the least scientific threads i have ever seen on sci. THiS IS WHAT HAPPENS WITHOUT /new! guys. SCIENTISTS ARE NOT EVIL. THERE IS NOT A CONSPIRACY AGAINST YOU BY PHARMACEUTICALS.
Of course they work on treating symptoms. That makes sense. They also TRY to cure them, and sometimes they do. But curing is harder.
Drugs being recalled does not prove in the slightest a thing against science in medicine working. In fact, it proves that the science DOES work, because the scientists revise their facts, and know more for it.
Pharmaceuticals are not ALL A GIANT EVIL MONSTER either. Alot of them are scientists and MDs who are working to make the physicians job easier. Some are more for the money than others. But stop believing this paranoid fantasy. SOME alt medicines work. And you know what? they often get suggested by MDs to people. I know my doctor does. Garlic is good for you. Just like vitamins. Take it regularly to keep you regular and stuff. Until it has been tested though, Alt medicine has no one looking out for you, and is not likely to work further than placebo.

>> No.2482392
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2482392

>homeophathic

>> No.2482394

>>2482364
>>2482356
More or less that says "THERE IS NO SAFE LEVEL" which is.. somewhat true, it is like me and a reactor. (USN Nuclear Power here) Now it is agreed that Uranium is pretty fucking toxic, both as yellowcake and as sticks of fuel rods, but you can do things to make it MORE SAFE. Thermisonol appears to have no long term effects, and if it makes vaccines last longer, it is good for everyone, since it makes third world nations able to get more without need of expensive refrigeration

>> No.2482398

if you think thimerosol is proven safe on infants, try searching thimerosol or mercury with words like natal and infant....there is zero data

try reading the tortured language here...a whole publication to prove that they could possible do a study with valid results
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18160342

>> No.2482402

>>2482386
>>2482378
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0CYP/is_8_113/ai_n15343360/ enjoy your DAMN DIRTY APES

>> No.2482403

>>2482394

it appears that way only because your baby isn't fucked in the head....thei is no science showing it is safe in infants, either short-term or long-term

>> No.2482411
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2482411

>> No.2482413

>>2482389
Look at this big pharma shill. How much are you getting paid to defend them brah?

Here is how I know you are full of shit: there is no profit in curing people. There is profit in prolonging the cure as much as possible. There is profit developing drugs to treat one issue and cause another requiring more medication. Why is the efficacy of new medicine complete shit compared to medicine developed 50 years ago? Hell, bro, the side effects of most new medicine is worse than the actual condition.

>> No.2482416

>>2482403
>no science showing it is safe
And none so far showing it is not. And thats the funny thing about safety. Its not how safe you are, its how not in danger you are.

>> No.2482418

>>2482364
Fish also contain trace amounts of mercury by your reasoning fish should no longer be eaten for risk of poisoning despite mercury levels being extremely low
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_in_fish

>> No.2482419

oh and in case you still think natural and alternative medicine is bullshit, ask your doctor how he can protect you or your kid from the widely distributed in food, methyl mercury.

and when he says nothing,
then show him this
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16427250

>> No.2482424

>>2482413
Funny you say that there is no money in curing, because I'm pretty sure thats what vaccines do, and I'm pretty sure those are made. Alot.

>> No.2482427

>>2482398

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com.ezproxy.mcphs.edu/doi/10.1111/j.1651-2227.2009.01641.x/abstract

>Results:  Compared with the group of infants not exposed to ethylmercury in utero, the infants of exposed mothers showed no significant difference in neurodevelopment delays. Although there was a significant correlation between hair-Hg of mothers and hair-Hg of neonates (Spearman r = 0.353; p = 0.0011), there was no significant correlation between the level of in utero exposure to ethylmercury in Td vaccines and neonate’s hair-Hg concentrations (Spearman r = 0.060; p = 0.5922). However, regression analysis showed that GDS at 6 months was significantly associated with total mercury concentration of neonate’s hair but was not sensitive to the number of vaccines taken by the mother.

>> No.2482430

>>2482419
it says IN RATS. that is a good indicator, but not proof in humans. Stop wishing your MD was some be all know all being.

>> No.2482434

>>2482427

how is en utero exposure to infants? all that study shows is these compounds do not cross the placental barrier, nice try though,

>> No.2482435

>>2482403
>>2482413
I have an ECONOMIC explanation for that. At this point, due to the critical success of other medicines, there was a huge demand for MORE PILLS: SUPER DRUGS, IU WANT JETSON FUTURE MEDICINE PILLS FOR EVERYTHING. Now of course the problem with the sicknesses we are fighting now are much harder than feared, as well as the fact that a lot of drugs simply have a diminishing marginal utility. More or less this means that the drugs that are pushed out have a lower utility (but are demanded by YOU as a society), but they do work/buy you say 6 weeks (in cases of anti cancer drugs). If you hate this, its your own fault for the 1930s-1960s being a period of massive innovation in chemistry and biology! Personally though I feel that we will hit a new age of INNOVATION once the human genome project data is sorted through, but for now, be happy, our pills cure ills that would have had people locked away in sanitariums in the 50s!

>> No.2482446

>>2482424
Vaccines are for prevention. They're not cures. But yeah.

>> No.2482453

>>2482446

vaccines are good for their business, by keeping babies alive, means more people to spend 30-50 years taking their bullshit medication that cures nothing

>> No.2482465

>>2482453
By that logic, wouldn't it be in the best interest of drug companies to lessen the use of birth control and abortion, and push fertility treatments? Can you provide a valid explanation for why they aren't doing exactly what you think they want to do?

>> No.2482478

lets end on a good note

here's some real, natural, currently alternative medicine, on its way to becoming a standard treatment:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19202302

ask yourself if you want to wait 20 years or more, or if it might be worth trying these ridiculously safe alternatives before resorting to the most potent and prone to side effects prescription standards.

>> No.2482497

smoke weed everyday

that's some good alternative medicine

>> No.2482504

>>2482434

Ah, sorry. This one was done in infants.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org.ezproxy.mcphs.edu/cgi/content/full/114/3/584

>Results. Only in 1 analysis for tics was there some evidence of a higher risk with increasing doses (Cox's HR: 1.50 per dose at 4 months; 95% confidence interval [CI]: 1.02–2.20). Statistically significant negative associations with increasing doses at 4 months were found for general developmental disorders (HR: 0.87; 95% CI: 0.81–0.93), unspecified developmental delay (HR: 0.80; 95% CI: 0.69–0.92), and attention-deficit disorder (HR: 0.79; 95% CI: 0.64–0.98). For the other disorders, there was no evidence of an association with thimerosal exposure.

>Conclusions. With the possible exception of tics, there was no evidence that thimerosal exposure via DTP/DT vaccines causes neurodevelopmental disorders.

>> No.2482512

>>2482497
Shut up, Sagan.

>> No.2482520

>>2482504

these aren't actual citations, by the way

plz give the citation, not your cherry picking and school subscription links

>> No.2482524

Where do I get this?
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylmercury

>> No.2482539

>>2482524
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimethylmercury#Synthesis.2C_structure.2C_reactions

>> No.2482553

here's another good one:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=scutellarin

for the guy that knocked chinese medicine, which has vastly more efficiency and better results when treating everything outside of the emergency room

>> No.2482571

>>2482553
You going to answer this >>2482465? I am eagerly awaiting your response. I even have popcorn.

>> No.2482577

>>2482520
My apologies.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15342825?dopt=Abstract

>> No.2482580

birth control is more profitable than nearly all other drugs besides psychiatric medications.

>> No.2482588

>>2482577
ahhh...exactly, zero control on this study

>> No.2482600

I'm not sure who's trolling who anymore.
Kinda wish there was somewhere more fitting to discuss this shit, not that it would stop people from posting it here. Polite sage.

>> No.2482610

>>2482580
But use of birth control (among other things, like economic development) has lessened population growth in the United States. It's only just above replacement levels. In order for drug companies to increase their profit, they should increase population growth, right? Or were you talking about the worldwide situation?

>> No.2482628

birth control also has other side-effects, like weight gain, eating disorders and smoking(each of these is more than 10x higher in BC users than non) so not only do they make huge profits on BC while the women are young, they make lots on treating the side-effects too, its a bit of calculus, but it ends up on their side for sure....also consider, pharma companies can't have western gov't collapse under their own weight(which is what would happen if we had pop growth like china or india)

>> No.2482633

heres an excellent review on anxiety alternatives:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20929532

consider almost no anxiety/depression prescription medications show efficacy beyond 5% over placebo

>> No.2482652

>>2482628
Even so, even a minimal level of positive growth would increase the population and, thus, increase the number of customers for the drug companies.

I'm sure I've asked you this before, since your style is so distinctive - why don't you capitalize?

>> No.2482673

>>2482652
>>2482652

i hate those dirty niggurs

>> No.2482843

>>2482628
>citations needed

also, i haven't read any studies but a legitimate observation is that since the purpose of HBC is to prevent pregnancy, that it could be the effect of the woman's inability to get pregnant

/sci/ thoughts?

>> No.2482881

>>2482652
>Even so, even a minimal level of positive growth would increase the population and, thus, increase the number of customers for the drug companies.
The Pill is not 100% effective.