/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.2431929]

Hello /sci/, /tg/ here.

As you now there are a lot of different kind of scifis, mostly soft scifi nowdays but you can find hard scifi too. If someone doesn't know the difference: soft scifi contain as much bullshit as the author wants/thinks it's cool and things like that, so basically it's more like fiction science than science fiction.
Hard scifi on the other hand, tries to be as scientific as it can be. There are different degrees of course, a whole scale if you want.

And you can do something like this with fantasy too. Precisely with the magic. So you can have hard and soft magic based on that the magic is how much depends on the bullshit factor.

So lets say, that you want to make a hard magic system for a setting, how would it work? The magic system needs rules and you have to explain why it's work that way. So maybe, like magic are extra Laws of Physics? Main problem is how do you explain that without bullshit that people can do magic...

tl;dr: how would you build up a magic system based on science?

[Anonymous No.2431942]

With sufficiently advanced technology, of course. So advanced we don't even understand it anymore.

[OPisafag No.2431953]

Look at any current-standing sci fi series and half the shit they do break laws of physics. Warp drive, energy shields which recharge from nothing, plasma rifles, fukin tiny ass pistols that shoot giant lasers.

[Anonymous No.2431963]

so, after thousands of years of human progress and understanding of the world around us, you want to use that same system of knowledge to explain something that has already been disproven?

>tl;dr: how would you build up a magic system based on science?

i guess you do, wow.

[Anonymous No.2431970]

>>2431953

yes, thats soft scifi

>>2431942
But lets say we try to make magic in a fantasy setting, and not technomagic

[Anonymous No.2431984]

>>2431963

yes, and your point is... ?

[Anonymous No.2432007]

I've actually tried to think of how a consistent universe would have to be to allow "magic" as presented in anime (as an example). I think the definition of magic that I like most is the one where one alters reality with their own perception, that is thought causes "supernatural" action. However, since magic would probably have to be built into this universe's laws, it can't really be supernatural, it would be natural.

Anyway, how would something like this even work in the first place and how do you prevent creatures living in that universe from evolving in ways that use that "magic process" as a natural way to benefit their survival. That is, magic should preferably only wielded by those that are advanced enough mentally to be able to use it. However, let's say you were such a being living in this universe, how would you even manifest such magic? If you had some limited powers to alter the space/time around you, would your mind even be able to comprehend the complexities involved in manipulating matter directly with one's mind. I think such an universe would probably have to be dualistic in such a way as to eliminate some of these impossible processing tasks away from the magic user and just have some sort of outside-the-universe strong AI do the math based on the thoughts of the individual (of course, the strong AI would also have to understand the mind of the individual as well as to understand its intuitions and generate the physical representations properly). Such a strong AI could be likened to some form of limited theistic god in terms of power.

[Anonymous No.2432008]

First step would be conservation of energy. Whatever energy is used (ie, fire from fingertips) that energy has to come from somewhere, be it from the magician or a form of energy around them.

[Anonymous No.2432011]

>>2432007
> continued
Another possibility is to just treat this universe as emulated, and merely insert players in it without actually playing out the whole evolution shebang, but all of this would likely be so damn incredibly complex.

I'd like to imagine that some aeons in the future, we'll simulate miniuniverses like this, and they'll fulfill the role that limited MMORPGs play today.

Of course, other more liberal definitions of magic would probably be too natural, and thus it could just be seen as some advanced form of scifi.

[Anonymous No.2432014]

>>2431984
my point is that you are using a metric that doesn't apply. you can not measure horsepower using only a yardstick. you can not undo science to make magic plausible. you are asking the wrong question. and that is my point.

[Anonymous No.2432032]

>>2431963
I think OP's asking what would a plausible universe look like that supported "magic". To make it fair, this universe should have real laws of physics, possibly similar to our own, however it should also allow some forms of "magic". This universe's laws of physics should be computable and consistent, in the sense that it could be emulated by some turing-complete machine (even though better hardware representatiosn would be preferable).

[Anonymous No.2432075]

>>2432014

I don't want to create reality. I want to create a game where the rules are contains less bullshit. I know that this can't be perfect. After all most of he scifis has FTL travel and such.

[Anonymous No.2432090]

>>2432075
If you want an universe with FTL, all you need is a way to safely alter the geometry to allow moving matter from 2 arbitrary distant points "safely".

[Anonymous No.2432091]

Get rid of Conservation of Energy and you can do all kinds of crazy shit.

[Anonymous No.2432096]

I don't know /sci/ what kind of fantasy settings and magic systems know, or know any at all, but most of them are utterly bullshit, mainly because there is no conservation of energy and such. Which is a vital point as >>2432008 mentioned.
And because of this shitnes, there is a lot of exploit through magic.
Like how you can destroy nearly everything with an immovable rod

[Anonymous No.2432121]

The only way I could think of, is some form of alchemy, and it would have to involve actually mixing chemicals and shit. None of that full metal lets draw a stupid symbol and KABAM MAGIC crap.

Other things that could fall under "hard magic" would probably be, telekineses (depends on the universe you present it in),

[Anonymous No.2432135]

>>2431929
advanced nano technology could make billions of tiny tiny robots to, let's say, shield a soldier or something like that. Also look up Quantum Physics, it's still not clear whether the electrons around an atom are being controlled or placed by an observer or and concious being.
Well that's about all the possible scientific bullshit I could think of... have fun
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fWtBq8uWKE
short movie

[Anonymous No.2432163]

il/lit/erate reporting in,

I had two 'scientific'(based off my little knowledge of physics) magical system made up in my mind, one for alchemy and one for magic.

Magic be the manipulation of energy, and would work like this:
>You want to turn a cup of water into a shard of frost and have it fly at someone.
>Absorb energy from moving molecules until it freezes.
>Use calories from consumption of food or bodyfat to make it shoot at someone.

Alchemy would be the manipulation of matter, and work in the form of controlling electrons, neutrons and protons and converting a handful of hydrogen atoms into one, say, atom of Iron. Of course, what happens to the remaining matter that was stripped of protons/electrons/neutrons in the process? Basically it would be only for people capable of doing long and complex chemical balance equations in their head.

It's still something going over in my brain, so I'm not quite sure how it'll work, or actually give humans the ability to do stuff like that. I've considered 'Appendix use to give Humans this ability but lost it in later in evolution' in my fictional story.

[Anonymous No.2432173]

Well...on a quantum level the conservation of energy law can be violate for short periods of time.

[Anonymous No.2432174]

>>2432163

And yes, I know that last bit with the appendix is a subpar asspull, which is why I'm looking for something else.

[Anonymous No.2432182]

The Force (Star Wars) seems pretty much coherent.

[Anonymous No.2432190]

>>2432163
Just have a dualistic world with some powerful strong AI interpreting other people's consciousness from an upper universe (the one that emulates the magic world) like in my example >>2432007
However, to tell you the truth, I wonder if some advanced forms of "magic" would be possible in a naturalistic universe (no interventionist/dualist crap). It presents a much harder challenge for me to rationalize how to introduce such powers and keep them unique only to those sufficiently intelligent.

[Anonymous No.2432211]

>>2432190

That's an interesting concept. Thanks.

[Anonymous No.2432249]

>>2432190
A magic gene that cannot be a random mutation, eventually stops working if the line becomes about 1/8th to 1/12th purity of the gene.

[Anonymous No.2432259]

>>2432163
>>Use calories from consumption of food or bodyfat to make it shoot at someone
I really like this because not only it allows for the existence of conservation of energy, but it also means that the reason warrior/mages are so rare, and mages are generally in bad physical shape is because using magic is a form of "exercise".

[Hijacked !!T0p6Zgm4zzA No.2432269]

>>2432259
lolwut? 1gm of body weight is huge amount of pure energy. The magician will be a walking solar flare.

[Anonymous No.2432272]

>>2432249
What would prevent other organisms from accidentally descovering such mechanisms? Unless, those within the universe weren't evolved and those genes were placed there somehow (magically, or just through engineering)?

You know, this actually makes me think of what it would be like if some beings had a parallel motor system which allowed some forms of magnetic manipulation, and they lived in a fairly magnetic environment themselves, thus these individuals could for example levitate (at minimum). However my second idea is within the realm of sci fi, and not as much as that of magic/fantasy (unless this behaviour evolved naturally and they attributed nature to "gods" and whatnot)

[Anonymous No.2432293]

>>2432269
But think like magic like a thermal engine, it won't be able to transform the full amount of energy to work, only a small percentage.

[Anonymous No.2432582]

>>2431929
I gave this some serious thought and I can only say this, and it should have been said from the beginning.
>how would you build up a magic system based on science?
>Magic
>Science
Pick one.
Magic, by definition breaks the rules. Attempting to create a system with rules that breaks the rules is futile.
Once you create a set up rules, it's really just part of the science of your universe.

Since it is fiction, you get to make up all the rules but once they are made up, that which follows the rules entails science and that which breaks the rules is magic.
So all you are really looking for is a detailed explanation of the science in your universe.
Beyond that, if you want to have a character that can do whatever he wants, that will be considered magic. If there are rules to what he can do, it just means that he has a better understanding of the universe than everyone else.

[Anonymous No.2432619]

>>2432582
Btw, that's exactly why, as Arthur C. Clarke correctly pointed out, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

[Mr. Hyde !!cPIqDLBbmTg No.2433057]

Alright OP, I'll help:

To do what you want to do, you have to employ an old Sci-Fi trick. Include the universe EXACTLY as it exists now, but include a single element or technological innovation that lies outside the scope of the universe and use that as the basis for your magic. Kind of like how Gundam uses the Minovsky Particle and Mass Effect uses Element Zero.

The 'hardness' of your magic system depends entirely on how much time you're willing to spend working out the details. The more time you dedicate to this, the more fundamental you can make the change.

For example: Let's say you don't have alot of time. I'd say make something bullshitty like "Bioelectric current (lol) can be directed in this universe and the degree of control of one's current is proportional to their brain size and how much they practice controlling it".

Now you have lighting and lightning does everything magically somehow.

[Mr. Hyde !!cPIqDLBbmTg No.2433087]

Or if you have more time, change some fundamental chemical or mechanical material property, such as the speed of sound or the density of air and extrapolate from there, for example: "The kinematic viscosity of nitrogen (which composes 70% of the air, I think, I could be wrong) is so low that when snapping or making certain rapid gestures, humans can induce pockets of low pressure in the air. With some practice, a person skilled in moving certain parts of their body quickly can direct a chain of low pressure points both inside and outside of their bodies."

That opens the door for instantaneous impaction, rapid heat transfer (both giving and receiving), commanding wind and weather conditions, directing arcs of any manner of projectiles (solid or fluid or flame), rapid movement, flight, and any number of things. The point is to combine these different effects into useful 'spells' that an end user could feasibly research and understand (or not!). Treat your 'hard' magic like a technological innovation. Alternatively, treat your 'hard' magic like a technological innovation that was forgotten! Perhaps humans don't quite understand what the kinematic viscosity of Nitrogen is or what it implies, they just know that when they snap their fingers in a certain way, wind rushes at them. They simply get very good at directing this wind

Of course, making low pressure pockets is only one example, there are a number of things out there that can be changed and would have dire consequences. The trick is to pick something obscure enough yet fundamental enough that most people don't immediately recognize the more pressing consequences of the fact. (like my nitrogen example? Yeah, we likely wouldn't be able to breath, live or move in such an environment, but it sounded kinda cool before you though about it for too long, right?

Anyway, that's one example, hope it helps, Cheers!

[Anonymous No.2433972]

Enlightened Science for the Ascension of all humankind!

[Anonymous No.2433992]

I'm a magician. Should I open myself to questions?

[Anonymous No.2436398]

>>2432582

I think it's just called magic because OP mentioned fantasy setting. And there for a simple peasant a lot of thing will be "lol, magic"
Also I think a lot of us here tries to make a magic system for a world, where it should be the other way around, make a world for a magic system. So first we need the rules of of the world, so we now what kind of things could be done or evolve and than make the world from it. Of course the things in the world won't know these rules, maybe they know a few of them and maybe they know completly wrong

[Scientist No.2436405]

>>2431929
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
- Genius Girl webcomic