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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2408705 No.2408705 [Reply] [Original]

"It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion."

>> No.2408710

QUANTUM UNCERTAINTY UP IN THIS BITCH

>> No.2408721

>>2408710
Uncertainty doesn't mean we have choice.

>> No.2408745
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2408745

yeah and?
it's like you can do something about that...

>> No.2408747

fukkin saved OP's pic

>> No.2408754

We already have a free will thread. This topic is becoming tiresome.

>> No.2408756

the quotation marks make me think this might be a quotation... in which case i would like to see who said it.

>> No.2408764

These arguments are ridiculous because they never begin with a rigorous definition of free will.
Sure, the stream of thought that you self-identify as is the result of the summation of sensory input with a set of processing feed-back loops.
This means... what?
"You" still have to go through the thermodynamic processes that produce a decision. There aren't any shortcuts just because there's some "mechanically destined" outcome. Anything that could produce an EXACT copy of that decision under all stimuli would be a functioning copy of you.
There is no "outside" to these thermodynamic processes. No Gods, no ghost in the wet machine that "actually" decides what's going to happen.
Just the process that you experience, and all the ramifications of that: joy, satisfaction, agony and ecstasy.

>> No.2408768

>>2408756
It's definitely not the guy in OP's pic.

Trust me.

>> No.2408791

>>2408768
>OP's pic about permanent troll face.
forgive me for thinking a pic that makes fun of the person OP is apparently quoting might be unrelated because he didn't have a relevant pic.

>> No.2408800

>>2408791
You must be new.

>> No.2408833

Yes but that's complete idiocy. The rational conclusion is that it is our conception of physical law that is an illusion. And everything we know about QM backs that up. The way things work in the quantum world is much more consistent with free will than it is with our intuitive notions about machines and laws.

>> No.2408842

>>2408833
>much more consistent with free will
I've never heard a good definition of free will.

I think instead that consciousness is merely an unexplainable thing - the exception, and the rest of the natural world is the way that science says it is.

>> No.2408843

I dont think any living being got free will.
But the thing is, there is so many factors that change living beings will that we may never be able to prove that this statement is really true.
And after all it doesnt matter, even tho what we do might be able to be predictable, it isnt for us.

>> No.2408852

>>2408833
learn more QM
Also, neurons don't function on a quantum level, so QM's got nothing to do with it.

>> No.2408862

>>2408852
But people decisions are affected by random things in the universe caused by those little random shits.

>> No.2408880

>>2408862
so the universe chooses for you..
the freewill still nowhere to be found

>> No.2408888

>>2408852
1) I know more QM than u.
2) Everything happens at the quantum level.

>> No.2408883

>>2408842
That's shit-tier thinking to decide that unexplained=unexplainable.

>> No.2408891

>>2408721

no, of course not, but the future is uncertain as far as we're concerned

as far as we're concerned makes all the difference

that is, the idea of free will is what's important, not free will itself

>> No.2408898

>>2408891
Yea, but religious people shit there paints over this stuff.

>> No.2408911

>>2408898

so do physicists

like, if everything is determined why do i still have to choose?

well you do, because your act of choosing is part of the process

we are both cause and effect

>> No.2408922

>>2408888
seems to me that you don't know enough
and even if your brain obeyed the quantum laws(at this scale) still there would be no freewill
probability != freewill/free choice(manipulating the universe)

>> No.2408923

>>2408842
>consciousness is merely an unexplainable thing

You're not much of a scientist, "Scientist" namefag.

>> No.2408934

>>2408922
The statistical laws of QM are completely consistent with any kind of explanation of the events so long as those events don't require local hidden variables, and the events follow the statistical predictions of QM. Free determination (self-caused or free) of quantum events works exactly as well as non-determination (random) of quantum events.

>> No.2408937
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2408937

Be careful, don't wake up God.

>> No.2408939

>>2408923
Please look up the homonculus problem. While we might be able to very accurately model, predict, and even change human behavior, such as by modifying the brain, I suspect that we'll never be able to explain why we have the perception of awareness, and a rock doesn't.

>> No.2408957

>>2408923

he's right

at the very least, the observer effect would always be in play as we study our own consciousness

very well, should we then study ourselves studying ourselves to minimise the effect?

then we'd have to study ourselves studying ourselves studying ourselves, etc.

>> No.2408975
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2408975

>>2408888

>everything happens at the quantum level

everything happens at every level

it's like fractals; the patterns carry on small and far and wide

there's nothing about the quantum level that distinguishes it from any other

>mfw the arrangement of planets follows the same laws of organisation as do atoms

>> No.2409017

You forgot that we are made up of 99% nothing

>> No.2409028

>>2409017

in light of gravity

quality over quantity

or whatever man, a small light in a dark room makes for a light room

>> No.2409051
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2409051

>>2408975
No they don't, have you taken a chemistry class past high school? lrn2molecular orbital theory

>> No.2409061

>>2409051

consider the chandrasekhar principle in stars and supernovae, for example

and compare it to what happens in a nuclear bomb

same exact thing

pauli exclusion

>> No.2409078

>>2409017
Fucking Pauli

>> No.2409114

>>2409017
Why does that matter? We're only 2% different from a stupid chimpanzee. 1% is a lot.