/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.2383252]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/01/18/45-of-students-dont-learn_n_810224.html

>Lindsay McCluskey, president of the United States Student Association, said the findings speak to a larger problem in U.S. higher education: universities being run more like corporations than educational institutions, with students viewed as consumers who come for a degree and move on

What say you /sci/?

[Anonymous No.2383256]

That's pretty much how it is everywhere else too.

[Anonymous No.2383270]

it's just one more thing that's wrong about universities and educational systems these days.

[Anonymous No.2383273]

Huffinton Post or not, sounds about right.

Would've loved to see this poll broken up by BA and BS.

[Anonymous No.2383284]

>Students who studied alone, read and wrote more, attended more selective schools and majored in traditional arts and sciences majors posted greater learning gains
Those in Greek life have lower GPA's. States the obvious, but the obvious is what needs to be cured. This supports the fact that America is falling behind. We don't produce enough people educated in math and science. We have a bunch of art and humanity majors who can't do anything with their degrees because they didn't learn anything. For-profit colleges are here to stay and helps put people through college. The major problem is that people don't want to learn.

[Anonymous No.2383288]

yep, and thats why its a problem. fuck corporatization. america is doing everything wrong.

[Anonymous No.2383294]

No way!

I always thought the revised edition of the 500$ book on basic philosophy - chem - math - or anything was because of the new ground breaking discoveries in the field!

[Anonymous No.2383305]

>>2383252
that is exactly the case at my state college.

they spend SHITLOADS of money on all kinds of unecessary bullshit. In my residence hall last year there was a rec room, and a study room.

In the rec room there was pool tables, air hockey and an 80 inch HDTV.

In the "study room", in one corner there was a desk and a chalkboard, and in the other corner there was a 60 inch plasma with a dvd and blu-ray player.
obviously this meant that the "study room" was never in fact used for studying.

[Anonymous No.2383311]

>>2383284
> We have a bunch of art and humanity majors who can't do anything with their degrees because they didn't learn anything.

Not that art and humanities are bad subjects on their own, but they attract a lot of "I guess I need a degree in SOMETHING" students. Of course now you need a college degree to answer phones and take notes. Every idiot out there is getting a degree in something, so the false conclusion is that if all you have is a highschool degree, you must not even be able to get a worthless art or humanities degree from a diploma mill.

[Anonymous No.2383325]

>>2383305
oh yeah and all over campus there are these 50 inch HDTVs mounted on the walls and all they do is rotate through stupid messages like: Get your textbooks early!, Deadlines for paying tuition, and advertisments for starbucks.

[Anonymous No.2383332]

>>2383311
True, more over, they didn't learn anything that would help them get a job besides working at a museum or at the university.

[Anonymous No.2383405]

I know several girls who went to school and partied and got easy-ass hardly worth anything degrees and then went right back to school to study nursing. There are a lot of people who are just there to "go to college" and don't know what the hell they want to do with themselves. I have a friend who does IT at a big state school who was going into a classroom to work on a projector/computer system recently, and he said the class that particular day was working on "learning to color," like with crayons and shit. I guess they were studying to teach little kids or whatever - but, I mean, what the fuck? Why would you pay thousands of dollars to waste your time with that shit.

On another note, a big problem is with heavily subsidized student loans. Colleges can jack up tuition, and people will still pay it because they can get loans easily. It's good that this makes college available to more people, but it encourages irresponsible tuition hikes and wasteful spending at universities. Ultimately it leaves more people more deeply in debt when they're done with school.

[Anonymous No.2383433]

> It's good that this makes college available to more people...

I'm going to disagree. In general, yes, you want people who can go to school and learn to be able to, even if they may not have the money. However, it needs to stop when you just start shoveling people through school. A lot of people should NOT be in school. Moreso than just because they are wasting their money, but they're dragging the other students down with them.

[Anonymous No.2383456]

my dream job is to open my own business, but my parents won't let me and say I have to go to college and get a business degree. I told them it would be a waste of money and anything I would need to learn I could learn on my own.

feels batman :(

[Anonymous No.2383465]

her analysis is the opposite of the truth. higher ed SHOULD be run more like a corporation.

the reason why it is failing is because it is not run like a business.

[Anonymous No.2383475]

>>2383433

If you want to have any hope of living a nice life, or of making enough money to raise a family then college is the only choice for most people.

The industrial jobs of half a century ago no longer exist. All the US offers now is either work that requires a degree or service sector, hourly jobs. And hell even the jobs that require degrees in most cases are shitty.

[Anonymous No.2383498]

>>2383465

So low quality, underhanded and often times over priced?

See: Any "For-Profit" schools like DeVry University.

[Anonymous No.2383505]

>>2383465
WRONG. there should be intense competition over quality of learning, but that does not mean it should be "run like a corporation" which would imply they only care about making money.

[Anonymous No.2383507]

>>2383273
AIR, in the fields of the liberal arts, whether sciences or humanities, students learned and improved the most. In fields like business, communications, and education, they made the least progress.

>>2383475
That's why I'm looking at going back to school for a degree, prolly a masters if I can swing it. There's just nothing else that will pay (for someone who isn't the entrepreneurial type).

[Anonymous No.2383510]

>huffington post

Why are we taking anyone seriously from there again?

[Anonymous No.2383517]

>>2383498
>for profit

LOL you mean like harvard, yale, or mit?

Those "public" schools that have to steal money from everyone to survive are usually the shitty ones that teach leftist propaganda.

[Anonymous No.2383519]

my tuition this year, living at home, is 8K per year.

20 years ago is was 2K per year.

[Anonymous No.2383538]

>>2383519
That's what happens when the government gets involved in the education system.

The only sectors of the economy where prices are actually rising(instead of falling as they would in a free market) are the ones government gets involved in.

[Anonymous No.2383569]

>>2383538
Tell Europe, where many countries pay most or all of a student's tuition.

You're fantasizing.

[Anonymous No.2383573]

>>2383538
>there is no inflation, only evil gubmint

[Anonymous No.2383582]

>>2383538
You and everyone who thinks like you are fucking morons.
There's a reason we have a department of education and school attendance being required by law. Without it illiteracy would skyrocket and the USA would be even further behind because people will only do as much as they need to. Assuming all the people with no formal education can just get blue-collar jobs is ludicrous considering all the manufacturing has been outsourced. The only way to survive in an information-based economy is to ensure your populace is educated enough to contribute, and as we've seen in the private Health Insurance industry, millions will be left behind in order to make shareholders happy. It's like the poll tax: can't afford to go to school? Well good luck surviving!

[Anonymous No.2383588]

lolamerica and your prohibitive fees, also lol at shitty arts majors who do nothing for society. Australian EE master race here, everyone else can go fuck themselves (also I have EU citizen ship, so thats even more GG).

[Anonymous No.2383595]

>>2383588
you would be one of the people the article is talking about

[Anonymous No.2383607]

45% seems low to me.

[Jim Profit !DgnrydpFYU No.2383630]

This is why we need state capitalism if any kind of capitalism. We need to make educational facilities have the incentive to breed skilled workers, or be destroyed. If the state giveth, and the state taketh away... All colleges should have to meet a quota, and be required to teach their students so well that they find a job soon after graduation in a relatively simaler field they studied in. If they do not meet their criteria, they stop receiving state funding.

Or better yet... we could just put all education online. Grade school, college. It would be very cheap and far more effective for all children and adults to learn at their own pace. With far less man power required, wasting resources and land when we have the technology to teach at home.

But either way, we have to be a nationalist country interested in providing work and stability for OUR country before other countries. I don't give a flying fuck about other countries until they start abiding by simaler moral standards. Until then, to me they're just alive until we have the time and means to bomb them all...

[Anonymous No.2383645]

>>2383630
You don't understand what the article is saying.

>The research of more than 2,300 undergraduates found 45 percent of students show no significant improvement in the key measures of critical thinking, complex reasoning and writing by the end of their sophomore years.

This study is about how many people *learn how to think*, not how many people learn rote tasks to help them immediately get employed.

[Anonymous No.2383652]

>>2383630
Because no child left behind has worked so well. All it did was increase the number of kids being pushed through HS.

[Jim Profit !DgnrydpFYU No.2383662]

>>2383652
That's because it was for grade and high school. That shit is fucking useless. It'd be more constructive to tie my kid to a chair in the library and give him a pile of books he can read to keep him from going insane and a piss bottle.

We assume college is to learn a trade or skill we can use to actually play a role in society. But education isn't for educating, it's for indoctrinating. That's why they get you when you're young.

[Anonymous No.2383663]

make college into a country club that also gives you a piece of paper saying you're good at stuff.

lots of people who aren't really intelligent go to get some college experience, going into debt in order to do so.

the school and professors, along with other businesses also make money from these young, inexperienced, not neccessarily intelligent people (mcdonalds, 5 hours energy, BOOKSTORES, BOOK PUBLISHERS, etc)

of course it's an industry.

what i find funny is that people in school right now think it gives them any kind of advantage.

it doesn't

[Anonymous No.2383668]

>>2383252
>I live in Norway
>University/college is free and you have the rights to an additional two years of higher education above college.
Ahh feels good not living in a captialist nation

[Anonymous No.2383693]

>>2383510
who is "we", faggot

[Anonymous No.2383706]

>>2383517
take a look at where money comes from for harvard, yale, and MIT...private schools all.

idiot.

[Anonymous No.2383707]

maybe?

[Anonymous No.2383729]

>>2383662
>Education not for education
>Education for indoctrination
Nigga you just went full tinfoil

[Anonymous No.2383781]

>>2383668
To elaborate
>Free health care in Norway, taxes are still low compared to income
>Norway is the undisputed holder of the "Best country to live in" title
>The US are 28th on that ranking
Everyone assumes the US are the center format for the world, but that's like saying China is the proper format because they have the highest population and basically owns the world market.

[Anonymous No.2383782]

>>2383729
despite being an idiot, he's right about that.

[Anonymous No.2383814]

>>2383781
I'm in the US, and I'd rather be in Norway.

[Anonymous No.2383849]

>>2383782
I suppose you could say that because of the way US history is taught. Never thought of it like that though.

[Anonymous No.2383859]

>>2383849
education has always been full of cultural indoctrination. the primary lesson being taught is to submit too authority figures.

[Jim Profit !DgnrydpFYU No.2383864]

>>2383849
I mean it because of EVERYTHING. School does not reward you for learning, discovery, curiosity, and hard work. It rewards complacecy, predictability, and never bringing attention to yourself even when you're the victim.

See, because I'm not indoctrinated...
>>2383782

Watch it buddy. I could easily find out where you live, kick down your door, break your fingers one by one, laugh in your face insanely while I do it, then we'll see who the idiot is when you can never type again and probably have to collect fucking food stamps because not having workable appendages tends to close a lot of doors. Don't fuck with me, and don't speak of me unless I give you permission too, got it clown?

I would appreciate it if just once, a class taught my kid how to have some self confidence, follow his dreams, and know how to defy the odds. THAT is what science is all about. The human will to power.

[Anonymous No.2383867]

>>2383864
You're not a very nice person, Jim.

[Anonymous No.2383873]

>>2383864
Fuck, you have a point there sort of, in school you are just expected to regurgitate what the teacher tells you on tests. Also, you're quite mad.

[Anonymous No.2383874]

>>2383864
>know how to defy the odds. THAT is what science is all about
you seem to have picked up some gaudy Hollywood version of science

[Anonymous No.2383893]

This is why I am sickened by pretty much anyone who claims to be more intelligent after college.

They're usually just elitist retards.

You want someone to have greater thinking skills after college?

Have them play Dwarf Fortress until they can have... whatever a high-end victory condition is for DF.

Have them play Nethack, no spoilers, until they can beat it with each class.

Have them play TF2 using only up to the engineer update for weapons. (the new weapons are shit for intra-team strategy, except for maybe pyro)

Memorizing a book will never make on more intelligent, it is only the use of knowledge that will do so.

[Anonymous No.2383900]

>>2383814
Or maybe you wish USA would be more like Norway? You don't have to be a president to do that. Just go out and find the largest oil and gas reserves at the coast.

When adjusted to population sizes 180 mbd would make USA equal to Norway in oil production. Too bad it would be more than twice the current oil production of the world.

[Anonymous No.2383925]

They don't even link to the study. I want to see the study.

[Anonymous No.2383927]

>>2383900
The US had its chance to build a great economy despite having passed its oil production peak. But it failed, because instead of value, opportunity, or excellence, the US has chosen to value simple short term profits over all else. And that is a losing strategy.

[Anonymous No.2383939]

>The book is based on information from 24 schools
laughinggirls.jpg

Fuck, someone needs to brush up on how not to extrapolate.

[Anonymous No.2383945]

>>2383939
looks like someone doesn't know how experiments get done...

[Anonymous No.2383959]

>>2383945
Sampling .4% when there's massive variation between schools and calling it proof that education in the States is bad is extrapolation.
I'm not defending schools in the States, I don't even know much about them. But that is just bullshit.

[Anonymous No.2383972]

>>2383927
What are you talking about? USA is one of the very richest countries in the world also in per capita terms and it has built this. Norway on the other hand just won the lottery with oil and gas.

[Anonymous No.2383973]

>>2383959
>sampling .000001% of the population is bad science if you're developing a medicine or surgical procedure
>sampling .00000000000001% of the atmosphere is bad science if you extrapolate to the whole atmosphere
>sampling .0000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of all matter and trying to extrapolate to the rest of matter is bad science

[Anonymous No.2383975]

>>2383959
All social science extrapolates from small samples. If you have some reasoning to suggest that there exist colleges which would not have that phenomenon, present it.

[Anonymous No.2383988]

>>2383972
I'm talking about dismal widespread economic opportunities, disparity of wealth, stagnant real wages for thirty years, unsupported credit as wealth, loss of technical leadership, and an economy going down the shitter.

[Anonymous No.2383990]

>>2383975
One of your friends is gay
Studies suggest that you are gay

[Anonymous No.2383998]

>>2383990
Reasoning other than a compete lack of understnding of how science is done, I meant.

[Anonymous No.2384003]

>>2383990
Except they don't.

Christ, what is wrong with you.

[Anonymous No.2384015]

>>2383998
My point is that all of your friends are vastly different (unless you`re part of a cult or something). If there is reason to believe that all colleges are roughly the same, then sure, .4% is fine. But calling for an overhaul in education because of 24 colleges (probably from Texas or Alabama or some shit) that give shitty education is stupid.

[Anonymous No.2384058]

>>2383814
>>2383781
I suppose this might as well be posted.

[Anonymous No.2384079]

>>2384015
mfw you think schools like Baylor, Rice, or UT Austin are bad schools.

[Anonymous No.2384081]

>politicians admit there is a problem in the US
>gain poll points
>do nothing about it

[Anonymous No.2384091]

>>2384015
As I said, you don't seem to understand how social scientific research gets done, so... there's really no point in trying to explain it to you.

[Anonymous No.2384118]

>>2384091
Rule #2 is that the smaller the population, the larger the sample proportion needs to be. In a population of 5000, .04% isn't acceptable.

[Anonymous No.2384139]

>>2383630
Online education sucks. I know. I've done it. It's absolutely abysmal.

[Anonymous No.2384145]

>>2384139
Specifically what kinds? ITunesU, MIT OCW, hybrid classes, etc?

[Anonymous No.2384149]

>>2384139
Seconded. I took tenth grade Canadian History online and have never had a worse experience with education.

[Anonymous No.2384163]

>>2384145
It was a fully devoted online high school. I was there for a year before I decided I was bored and tested out.

'Course, other online educational establishments may or may not offer services that are exponentially better than what I experienced.

[Anonymous No.2384170]

>>2384149
>Canadian History
Well, there's your problem.

Online sources, even good ones like OCW, should just be there to assist you in studying on your own. If you rely on them to teach you, they won't do shit. The problem is that people try to make online education similar to education in the real world to convince people they should pay for it.

[Anonymous No.2384177]

>>2384170
I'm from Ontario, it was a required course to graduate.

[Anonymous No.2384206]

more of the problem is that every fucking job now requires a degree and doesn't take into account experience or real knowledge. I could have 7 years of experience in a certain field but without a degree could be denied to someone with a degree.

[Anonymous No.2384215]

Meh, I don't think it's so bad.


Get rid of affirmative action please. Please stop dumbing down education for "them".

[Anonymous No.2384216]

>>2384206

People just want degrees to support the meritocracy we live in, experience is just the fluff they try to say is necessary but it isnt...

People are under the assumption that the degree makes you smarter and it doesn't.

[Anonymous No.2384224]

Doesn't seem SO bad. America has been the most powerful economy on Earth since the 1920s. Not much as changed.

[Anonymous No.2384225]

>>2384215

Dude please get the fuck out.

[Anonymous No.2384227]

>>2384225
I refuse to until you read this.

http://martynemko.blogspot.com/2009/06/white-teacher-speaks-out-what-is-it.html

Then forma real argument.

[Anonymous No.2384230]

>>2383252
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/20/fox-news-poll-say-prayer-helped-save-congresswoman/

hey OP, do you think both articles are somehow related?

[Anonymous No.2384233]

>>2384225
No. Asians deserve better. To get denied from the greatest universities with perfect SAT scores just so they can fill their quota is retarded.

[Anonymous No.2384265]

Looks like everybody here got owned with facts and shut the hell up.

Learn your place, kids.

[Anonymous No.2384273]

>>2384215

>blue = white

wat

[Anonymous No.2384297]

>>2384227

You Racis'

[Anonymous No.2384312]

>>2383630

>state capitalism

Not that I disagree with you, but state capitalism is hardly "objectivist."

[Anonymous No.2384320]

>>2384297

[spaghettiknife !!wriWddaylti No.2384328]

And yes, math and sci have to be emphasized big time. I know people like to look on the "old days" with nostalgia, but when you look at the final exams, they were really anal retentive about grammar while testing for math skills any 5th grader would have.

[Jim Profit !DgnrydpFYU No.2384404]

>>2384312
Yes, I'm aware of that lol. The objectivst part of the image name is to piss off real randroids.

I wouldn't even consider capitalism at all if I wasn't so darn cynical. Capitalism keeps everyone but an elite few in poverty. That to me is good. What isn't good how homosexuality and women are rewarded under capitalism. There is always a demand for whores, viagra, abortion, and feminism. Women and fags go great with "free markets". Because they're just unthinking consumer hogs. So we need a capital that is fair, because it's completely unfair... especially to some undesirables.

[Anonymous No.2384419]

>>2384328
I fit into this trend of reading tons of shit and retaining it and doing horrible on math. Got a near-perfect on reading and writing and scored in the 64th percentile or some shit on my SAT.

God damn Lutheran Schools.

God damn my parents.

God damn organized religion.

[Anonymous No.2384420]

>>2384404
>Capitalism keeps everyone but an elite few in poverty. That to me is good. What isn't good how homosexuality and women are rewarded under capitalism.

[Anonymous No.2384434]

>>2384404
You's trollin.

[Anonymous No.2384436]

>>2384320

lol racis mofuka din ein read da link

[Anonymous No.2384456]

>>2383284
actually, if you weren't an idiot, you would have noticed that science and liberal arts are the two strongest academic fields. aka "humanities and arts". As expected, shit tier degrees are the worst. lol "communications" and "business" degrees.

Honestly what the fuck is a communication degree? Is that for idiots that don't know how to speak?

[Anonymous No.2384466]

>>2384456
It's for journalists, marketers, etc

[Anonymous No.2384484]

>>2384227
>ideas on how to bridge the gap between whites and blacks
>eliminate ability-grouped classes

That's the WORST idea for students overall. What, bring da whitey down to the niggas, see how dey likes it? That's not constructive.

START by cleaning up the ghettos. That means getting the poor out of the ghetto, off the streets, and into livable quarters. Then make sure they have the proper fucking training to get real jobs, and make sure their goddamn gang wars don't get in the way of that education.

We could stand to stop bombing everyone to shit, too. Free up some funding.

[Anonymous No.2384492]

>>2383781
it was 13th

[Anonymous No.2384544]

>>2384484
They still won't be as intelligent as everyone else,. That's why the ghettos become ghettos. The people living there cannot maintain the buildings they inhabit.

[Anonymous No.2384573]

YOU RACIS'