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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/sci/ - Science & Math

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2232731 No.2232731 [Reply] [Original]

Nature is cruel, it is based on predation and therefore one must die for the other to live. And in almost every situation there is pain and suffering in order to survive. So if this is true, then why is there capitalism in America? a system based off of nature. Survival of the fittest.discuss
BTW i am a liberal republican who believes in capitalism.

>> No.2232738

>then why is there capitalism

Why are you implying there shouldn't be?

>> No.2232750

>>2232738
I never stated that there shouldn't be capitalism, i simply want to discuss why it is the current socioeconomically, one that is based off of what i had previously stated.

>> No.2232763

Actually two things, if the eudicaran fauna hadn't been royally ass raped by the emergence of predatory worms life would not look anything like it does today we owe our existence to predation.

Second, anarchy is more in tune with nature and survival of the fittest.

>> No.2232771

>>2232750
>So if this is true, then why

This phrasing (if A is true, then why is B true) is akin to implying that if A is true, B should NOT be true.

>> No.2232781
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2232781

>>2232771
>implying

>> No.2232798

>>2232763
yes, i agree but anarchy itself is not a socioeconomic system but the lack there of.

and i also agree that we owe the entire specie's existence to predation. but would it be too far fetched for one to argue that along with the development of the human brain, that we could get passed the predation nature and evolve into something, for lack of a term, better?

>> No.2232805

>>2232781
Yes, I used the word implying, as was appropriate. And?

>> No.2232814

>>2232805
It was a joke, I couldn't resist sorry.

>> No.2232830

>>2232798
Define better until you do that we can't have a very good conversation, but I only say the anarchy thing because it puts us back on track with natural selection.

Only trans-human anarchy or authoritarianism will allow us to survive into the future. We can be free later. We haven't exactly done much with the freedom we have been given.

>> No.2232842

>>2232798
i can see how you might have thought that i was implying that capitalism is bad, but i thought that i made it abundantly clear that i was not here >>2232750

>> No.2232856

>>2232830
well that's the part that i want to discuss, whats next?
do we graduate from the course of natural selection?

>> No.2232872

>>2232856
>do we graduate from the course of natural selection?

I would say no, unless us taking evolution into our own hand is not natural selection. Then by all means leave it in the dust, but we are part of nature so natural selection doesn't ever go away.

>> No.2232883

>hen why is there capitalism in America? a system based off of nature

Because if you use a system that conflicts with nature you're going to end up with even more death and suffering.

>> No.2232886

>>2232872unless us taking evolution into our own hand

We really need to start some kind of eugenics program.

>> No.2232895

>>2232886
Oops, I didn't even realized I made a spelling mistake sorry.

>> No.2232896

>>2232872
i would say that we have already begun to take natural selection out, in America specifically, alot of people survive and reproduce. We are essentially stopping evolution if there is random mating. which is very common in America.

>> No.2232903

>>2232731
>BTW i am a liberal republican who believes in capitalism.

This is immaterial to your question but stating so has served to taint it.

>> No.2232904 [DELETED] 

>>2232896
Not really it's just the environment has changed so what would have survived without infrastructure does now. It's still going on albeit in way that seems counter intuitive to our hunter gatherer ancestors.

>> No.2232915
File: 5 KB, 900x600, anarchocommunistflag.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2232915

Capitalism is a nightmare to most of those caught up in it-it means the enslavement of the third world to produce goods for the first world at extremely low wages, leaving you and I living in comfort while some poor fucker in India tries to scrape by on a buck a day.

It can't last forever. We have a limited amount of resources on this planet-our wasteful lifestyle is already starting to really fuck shit up.

SOMETHING needs to change, or shit will collapse in a hideous way. I personally think we need to violently overthrow the US government and create a worker's state, then rapidly move to reorient the world to get us using our resources effectively, then we can go into space and shit and stop being total dicks to each over over shit as dumb as nations and shit.

Pic related, maybe, hopefully in the future...dunno if we can get their without a transition through some sort of state...

>> No.2232921

>>2232915
Yeah something does need to change we need to give up our addiction to freedom.

>> No.2232936

>>2232915
SO long as we have free will we are gonna have violence we just need to deal with it it's in our natures. There is no workers paradise, we either grow up as a species and make some tough decisions or we die out.

>> No.2232952

>>2232903
i was stating so as to appear to be questioning capitalism as apposed to bashing it. had i not stated so, one could deduce that i was against capitalism and thus this conversation would become an argument on socioeconomic preferences.
>>2232904
I get what your saying, but in your personal opinion, do you think this system will remain the norm or will it be replaced by something else?

>> No.2232966

>>2232936
I'm not talking about paradise, brother. I'm talking about survival. The decision we need to make is, do we orient production to need, or to profit? One means we have a chance, the other is filling the ocean with plastic shit and draining us of fossil fuels-which we rely on for a lot more than fuel-at an alarming rate.

Violence is not pretty. Social transformation will be....ruthless.

>> No.2232977

Humans societies are not a mere reflection of an individual's brain, nor are they the strict evolution of a natural form; humans, when they gather, become something much deeper. If you really want to understand civilizations, you have to use an holistic perspective.

>>2232856
Even though the classical or neoclassical economists tend to say, there is nothing "natural" with capitalism or the invisible hand. Humans in their primitive form do tend to obtain more with less, for instance, but they are not able to use money or currency at birth.

For example, there was a study where a chimp was shown a banana and a chip. If he chose the chip, he would receive two bananas. After some time, he would choose the chip. He learned it though, so its likely that it's not natural (since he he learned it) and not specific to humans.

In essence, the whole idea that capitalism is supposed to be natural is just a big lie. Not because it suppose the victory of the more powerful over the less one that it is natural since there need to be much, much more than that.

>> No.2232983

>>2232952
Sorry I deleted my other post because I can't type worth shit tonight.

But,

>I get what your saying, but in your personal opinion, do you think this system will remain the norm or will it be replaced by something else?

I figure it can't stay this way. We either continue our merger with technology or we die. Technology is our evolutionary adaptation. It's going to require a paradigm shift, just like the oxygen revolution or multi cellular life, or intelligence.

>> No.2232992

>>2232966
I really like where your going with this, but would you mind describing how this social transformation would be ruthless?

>> No.2233000
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2233000

>>2232966
>>2232966
Oh ok I thought you were coming on all bleeding heart liberal, but I do agree with you.

>> No.2233047
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2233047

>mfw i put a fuckwin virus into the social flow

>> No.2233057
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2233057

>>2233047

>> No.2233061

>>2232915
i think it will get ugly before it gets pretty, few would want to give up their very comfortable lifestyle to live in a communist state. espically the republicans

>>2232977
your right i suppose, it is less natural, but more that it follows the survival of the fittest aspect. i may have used them as synonymous

>> No.2233090

>>2233047

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Unwarranted_self-importance

I suggest you read this.

>> No.2233110

>>2233090
Why you sage though?

>> No.2233119

>>2233000
I used to be like that, until I started looking at the levels of resources, the levels of waste, and at how little is being done to fix anything.

The future will either be a hell of disintegrating nations, or (if we're lucky) something like the early Soviet Union-hopefully with no Stalin and a whole hell of a lot more free speech.

I loathe authoritarianism, but if shit goes down, I'll line counter-revolutionaries against a wall and gun them down by the hundred, especially if the resource crisis is too bad. You don't let the fat guy raid the store room or bribe people, you cut his head off and feed him to the people.

I can't even believe I talk like this now.....I miss my innocent anarchist youth...for the love of god, someone prove me wrong. Please.

>> No.2233157

>>2233119
im afraid i agree with you. i started this convo to see what people really see about where things are going. Im just glad to know that if shit hits the fan, that i have a well stocked weapon safe, and plenty of ammo and other necessities. Survival of the fittest.... Right?

>> No.2233176

>>2233157
It'll all work out you'll see. Humans aren't that dumb, we survived ice age earth and conquered an entire planet using only stone age technology. We'll survive this and sing songs as we sail around the milky way.

>> No.2233193

>>2233176
i hope you are right, humans can also be violent and cruel. its a toss of the dice if you ask me. i dont think it will get to the point were the entire planet is wiped out, but i dont foresee it happening very peacefully either

>> No.2233201

>>2233157
I just hope the fittest in this case are intelligent and progressive people federating in the name of building a society that can last and prosper.

>> No.2233212

>>2233193
You have to take the bad with the good, never said it would be easy, but anything worth doing was never easy.

>> No.2233215
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2233215

>>2233201
Dem trans-human fascists.....

>> No.2233245
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2233245

>>2233176
Heh, thanks. you put a smile and a faint flicker of hope into a jaded old red's heart.

Maybe it'll all be okay after all!

>> No.2233275

>>2233245
No problem it's what i'm here for.

>> No.2233310

>>2233215
...I'm not a trans-humanist or a fascist? I'm just a socialist, albeit with reservations.

>> No.2233314

>>2233310
I know i'm just tired ignore my post.

>> No.2233324

>>2233314
it's okay dude.

>> No.2233375

>Nature is cruel, it is based on predation

Nature is not based on prediction anymore than clouds are based on insight. Your statement makes no fucking sense.

>and therefore one must die for the other to live

Prediction dictates that life requires death. That too makes no fucking sense.

> And in almost every situation there is pain and suffering in order to survive

Except we are biologically programmed to enjoy the things that aid in survival.

>So if this is true,

Which it cannot be unless you start to redefine words to mean something completley different.

>then why is there capitalism in America?

The only coherent thing you have siad is that capitolism is based on nature. All you BS surrounding that statement is retarded.

The simple answer is that it works.

>BTW i am a liberal republican who believes in capitalism.

You cannot be a liberal Republican, because that doesn't exist. And it is a given that Republicans believe in capitolism. It is obvious and doesn't need to be stated.

You remind me of my Republican girlfriend. She made about as much sense as you. He views on the US defeating Russian in WWII are facinating.

>> No.2233376
File: 690 KB, 800x1074, capitalism.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2233376

Damn Blake you're right on the ball.
You got a friend in me.

>> No.2233385

>>2233375
What the fuck are you on about.

Predation means predator's eating other animals you dumb fuck.

>> No.2233399

>>2233385
He read "predation" as "prediction."

Yes, he needs to learn to read.

>> No.2233417

>>2233375
I thought I was reading an aether post.....

>> No.2233432

>>2233375
OP here
you are so ridiculously stupid
PREDATION not Prediction
and there is such thing as a liberal republican. and not all republicans believe in capitalism. and the rest of what you said, i could not comprehend because of the sheer volume of stupidity radiating from your post. you cant just make generalizations about everything.

>> No.2233460

I read the retarded first post as prediction, not predation.

The post is no less retarded. Life is not based on predation. There are abundant forms of life on this planet since life began to today that do not rely on any predetor/prey relationship.

The OP is still retarded and the rest of my points stand.

>> No.2233467

>BTW i am a liberal republican who believes in capitalism.
You think anyone but /new cares? Get off /sci.

>> No.2233473

>>2233460
I would like to see how everything performs without predators.

>> No.2233480
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2233480

>>2232731

>> No.2233489

>>2233460
op here again
capitalism is based on predation. survival of the fittest. what are you not grasping here? I mentioned nothing of life itself. i am aware that not everything is of predator/prey circumstance.

>> No.2233495

>>2233467
read the top of >>2232952

>> No.2233497
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2233497

>>2232731
>>2232731
>>2232731

>> No.2233532

why do i laugh more when i'm tired, what is it with humour and little energy?

>> No.2233549

Probably because of that "fitest" part. Without capitalism, there's no efficient way to maintain efficiency. Without efficiency production eventually falls below subsistence level and everyone is in misery... as opposed to everyone just having to deal with the challenge of competition and taking a greater or lesser share of the resulting bounty.