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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2211509 No.2211509 [Reply] [Original]

/sci/, help me understand photons and electrons. I read that electrons are not considered to have a size anymore, but are just "points" in space. I don't understand how that's possible. They must have a size, if they didn't have a size, they couldn't be points in space.

As for photons, why are they described as "nothing" when they are particles occupying a volume of space. My friend told me that sub-atomic particles are theoretical and mathematical constructs, and not exactly real. So what the hell is all of this about? do I have to learn the maths to understand the theory?

>> No.2211517

>>2211509
OhgodwhatjusthappeneIdonteven

>> No.2211516

protip: no one understands it
protip2: Its all bullshit atoms are pixels and the universe is some sort of digital program

>> No.2211554

>>2211516

if nobody understands it, then what is the point?

>> No.2211555

>>2211516

The experiment to test if the universe is holographic is still pending, so don't go spouting things that aren't proven.

>>2211509

You should probably learn the theory with the maths. You're demonstrating a poor understanding of both.

>> No.2211562

>>2211555
>You're demonstrating a poor understanding

well duh help me out as much as you can here, what can you explain to me before I bury my head in abstract autistic nonsense

>> No.2211571

Electrons have a size in the sense that there are rules governing how close two can get to each other. Remember that particles are not localized in a single position in space. They're quantum things, quite different from what you see in everyday life. All particles--indeed, all things--are like this. "Volume" is just a way of describing how closely you can approach something before fundamental forces become too repulsive.

I've never heard of anyone describing photons as "nothing" and I don't know where you got that idea, but they do *not* occupy any volume in the classical sense.

Particles are mathematical constructs, yes, but they're also observable. http://teachers.web.cern.ch/teachers/archiv/HST2005/bubble_chambers/BCwebsite/index.htm

>> No.2211589

>>2211509

physicsgradfag here

electrons are considered point particles whenever they are used in most calculations, and current theories that place a radius on the electron don't make sense because, when we try to calculate there angular velocities based on their energies, it exceeds the speed of light, so we don't understand it enough

since when are photons described as "nothing"? they are packets of energy and have momentum, they are bosons that "carry" the electromagnetic force

sub-atomic particles are real, they have been detected in thousands of experiments, i don't know what the fuck your friend is talking about, ask him where he pulled that out of his ass

YES, you need to understand the maths to understand any physics theory fully, otherwise it is just a qualitative description of what the math is actually saying

>> No.2211600

>Remember that particles are not localized in a single position in space. They're quantum things, quite different from what you see in everyday life.

is this because they're moving and vibrating or because they're non-particle-non-wave mind fuckery?

>> No.2211919
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2211919

>>2211509

Oh my god it's "Einsteins Spuk"

>> No.2211951

>if they didn't have a size, they couldn't be points in space.

Since when do points have a size?

>> No.2211972

Electrons are marbles travelling through condensed matter.
Zoom in. Electrons become plane waves in condensed matter, and probabilities around the nucleus.
Zoom in. Electrons are a harmonic oscillator at each point in space and time.
Zoom out, assume electrons have radius zero. As mass means a finite Schwarzschild radius, GR tells you all electrons are black holes.

It's all a matter of where you're trying to get predictions of your system. Electrons have a radius whenever assuming they have none yields wrong results. It's the same thing with Newtonian mechanics, they aren't wrong, but they don't describe nature in its whole but just a small part of it.

>> No.2211988
File: 42 KB, 155x178, doublesorly.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2211988

>>2211589
>Angular velocity exceeds the speed of light
Explain more

>> No.2211996

>>2211919

wat

>>2211951

. < does that have a size?

>> No.2212000

>>2211996
That's not a point. That's a pictorial representation of a point.

>> No.2212005

>>2211988
It *would* exceed the speed of light. You can classically calculate the speed of an electron on its surface, resulting in something greater than c. It's the most common example when trying to demonstrate that spin can't be understood classically (it's a relativistic effect).

>> No.2212008

>>2212005 it's a relativistic effect
And a quantum-mechanical of course too. Actually, I'd say it's a primarily QM effect.

>> No.2212012

>>2212005
But what if that is the correct answer, that is moves faster than the speed of light?

>> No.2212019

>>2212008
I'd say spin is primarily a relativistic effect, seeing that it doesn't arise naturally in non-relativistic QM.

>> No.2212016

>>2212000

so a point is by definition something without size?

>> No.2212022

>>2212016
Yes. We study this stuff in first grade where I'm from. Don't know about you, though.

>> No.2212030

>>2212019
Well, take away QM, spin is gone.
Use relativity to introduce spin to QM, get spin, take relativity out again, spin is still there. (wtf)
... that's what I was referring to. It's of course an effect of both of them, but some applications don't require relativistic treatment at least.

>> No.2212031

>>2212022

just looked at all the dictionary.com definitions and the closest it was the intersection of two lines

>> No.2212047

>>2212031
And?