Well, im interested in a little Relgion vs science war here. argue your opinion please

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Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:43:47 2010 No.2174073 [Reply] [Original]

Well, im interested in a little Relgion vs science war here. argue your opinion please

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:47:47 2010 No.2174092 religion does not belong on a science related image board. /thread

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:48:47 2010 No.2174096 Religion isn't real /thread

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:49:47 2010 No.2174099

Religion and science are not inherent enemies. Science is the study of the observable universe and the development of theories to understand it based on observation, experimentation, and reason. Religion is believing in a buch of supernatural stuff without proof and wanting other people to believe the same as you.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:49:47 2010 No.2174102 >>2174092 religion belongs everywhere silly, it helps us understand everything

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:49:47 2010 No.2174103 Well, this has been an interesting discussion, now hasn't it? We'll probably want to wrap it up around here to stop ourselves being repetitive. Good talk guys.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:50:47 2010 No.2174104

The bible states heaven is in the sky/clouds. All art from "back in the day" shows god, angels, jesus & heaven depicted as in the clouds. Religion opposes science because every advancement further proves how bullshit religion is.

When we were able to fly & travel into space religion changes its story to "herp derp in another dimension".

They've changed their story that many times and done nothing to back their shit up its impossible to take them seriously. I spray-painted E=mc2 on my local church to piss them off about 2 years ago.

>>	Colin !!GWicPmfSgsD Wed Dec 8 17:50:47 2010 No.2174106 >inb4 150 replies

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:51:47 2010 No.2174110 File: 8 KB, 320x240, Kermit teeth.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Religion and science are not inherent enemies.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:52:47 2010 No.2174112 this thread violates the rules of /sci/ reported

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:53:47 2010 No.2174116 >>2174110 They only are when religion makes claims about the natural world, if all they care about is which fictional god-pokemon keeps the cogs turning who gives a shit?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:53:47 2010 No.2174119 god is a loving being, im sure you can still beg for forgiveness for your disbelief

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:54:47 2010 No.2174125 >>2174116 >if all they care about is which fictional god-pokemon keeps the cogs turning >if there's the problem

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:56:47 2010 No.2174129 >for god so loved the world he gave his only beogtten son, so that those who believe in him shal not perish, but have eternal life :)

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 17:57:47 2010 No.2174131 way to not follow the rules you bad ass you

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:02:47 2010 No.2174153 I'm new to /sci/, why is it against the rules to have religion vs science debate?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:04:47 2010 No.2174162 >>2174104 You say that as if Science hasn't changed its mind just as many times...

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:04:47 2010 No.2174163 >>2174153 because it goes nowhere

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:06:47 2010 No.2174176 im a christian, but i am also going to school to study physics, i am able to look a the world scientifically, but i understand there is a certain degree of intelligent design

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:07:47 2010 No.2174180

>>2174162
Science is founded on the idea of changing one's mind, it's not dogma. New information and theories are added to science all the time, sometimes they conflict or replace existing theories. Religions are founded on the idea that their beliefs represent absolute truth and anything contrary is heresy.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:08:47 2010 No.2174183 >>2174176 Assuming you're not a troll, what, exactly is intelligently designed?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:10:47 2010 No.2174192 hydrogen is extremely flammable by itself, but it bonds with another hydrogen and is never found alone. why not be alone and combust everywhere spontaneously? also, the bombadier beetle, explain that

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 18:12:47 2010 No.2174195 >>2174192 Learn 2 thermodynamics.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:15:47 2010 No.2174206

>>2174192
>hydrogen is extremely flammable by itself, but it bonds with another hydrogen and is never found alone. why not be alone and combust everywhere spontaneously?
Wait, what? Are you saying that hydrogen made up of individual hydrogen atoms is flammable but H2 isn't? I've got news for you, bro.
>also, the bombadier beetle, explain that
There have been several other species of beetle found that share porperties of the bombadier beetle's defence mechanism, so much so that many of them are considered intermediate stage beetles.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:24:47 2010 No.2174231 >>2174180 >science is always wrong >God is always right >that's why i'm a scientist >dude, you herped so hard you derped

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:25:47 2010 No.2174234 >>2174180 that is of course, why the roman-catholic church still burns witches at the stake. why they still think unborn babies go to hell. idiot. religion also changes.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 18:26:47 2010 No.2174238 >>2174234 But it never changes enough.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:27:47 2010 No.2174239 >>2174162 Science always gets more right, even though it is wrong many times. Isaac Asimov wrote a lovely essay about it: http://hermiene.net/essays-trans/relativity_of_wrong.html

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:43:47 2010 No.2174279
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In science something is considered to be true, if it has be proven.
In religion something is considered to be true, if it hasn't been disproved.
Hands up when you can spot the difference.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 18:44:47 2010 No.2174286 >>2174279 here

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:51:47 2010 No.2174313

>>2174234
Actually the catholic church never burned witches at the stake. Witches were burned at the stake by civil courts. The beliefs surrounding witchcraft and the tradition of burning them actually comes from European Paganism and was part of the culture from before Christianity existed.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:53:47 2010 No.2174317 >>2174279 Epicurus also thought the idea of a spherical world was theistic superstition.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:54:47 2010 No.2174318 define 'science' define 'religion'

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 18:56:36 2010 No.2174330 [DELETED]

personully i believ in God becuz he iz nicessury 2 explain the univers
leik even tho physics explains the forces and mechizism behind the interaction of particles, wut is it dat generates dose forces? shurly ae of u cud tell me dat mass generates a gravitional force, but what intrinisic property of mass allwos this? Da only answer is God.

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 18:59:47 2010 No.2174347
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>>2174073
God is in the mind. We, humanity are God. The LORD God, is infinite -- the creator of the universe, the 2-dimensional intelligence. We live within the LORDS imagination, secured in place by the boundaries, the LORDS knowledge.

When an atheist/nihilistic scientist argues God doesn't exist, they bring up physical evidence -- the same guys who claim that all in existence is nothing but a result of chemicals.

Ask the question 'why red?' and they'll claim the chemicals make it red. Ask the question 'why red as oppose to another set of colours?' and they'll claim it just is what it is.

Were we made with colours or were we made with chemicals? Even if something is transparent, it still holds 'filling', black, white, grey, etc. We are a direct relative to light -- it was around before humanity came into existence, it was probably the first element to creation, bar gravity + quantum/cubic time. The light is coloured, and whence it passes through crystal it becomes coloured, which shows us that colours (RGB,etc) must have came second to light. These colours bind to the 'atoms' which I guess are relative to 'gravity' or 'magnetism' in some way (which is the female element to the lights obvious male features -- like only gives, it doesn't recieve).

As humanity, we all seem to have a direct relation to both gravity and light, for we give and receive. I'll explain it better some other time.

>>	the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:02:47 2010 No.2174364 to continue, you ask me 'why chemicals' I say, the colours made them.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:05:47 2010 No.2174375 >>2174347 >>2174364 FUCKOFF, RAINBOWFAGGOT

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:09:47 2010 No.2174393

>>2174375
this guy doesn't believe he is God, he is submissive to human hierarchy -- in his eyes, there is no 'man from another dimension' God, but there is also no belief in his own omnipotence to do ~whatever the fuck one wants. Secretly, very obvious sometimes, this guy worships the government as God, and he does this by suppressing theism, always sticking to the 'man from another dimension God' and claiming anything that claims something 'real' is God, as ramblings of a mad man.

I'd rather be a 'crazy delusional theist'.
Than a 'normal cowardly atheist'

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:11:47 2010 No.2174402 >>2174393 CONFIRMING FOR TROLL TIER NIIIIIGGEEEEERRRRRRR WE NEED YOU IN HERE!

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:13:47 2010 No.2174406

Atheism is not a faith. It is a lack of faith. Not having faith is not faith. Not collecting stamps is not a hobby. Atheism is not the Big Bang theory and it is not the theory of Evolution. Science is not a religion, it is a method for discovering new knowledge. Atheism is only a religion in the same way that not believing is Santa Clause is also a religion. The burden of proof lies on people claiming that a god exists. There is no purpose for our existence, only causes. Morlity is independent of religion. Actions done under the belief that punishment awaits are impure. "Good" and "bad" are only human perceptions.
Religion is the epitome of ignorance, it is a deadly ignorance. It is an abomination and insult to reason. It is a political tool used to control large populations. It is a security blanket for those that fear death. It is a cheap answer to questions that science cannot at this time explain. It is the result of a lack of information. Religion is holding mankind from it's potential. It still exists because of tradition and an emotional reponse to reject reality.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:15:47 2010 No.2174413 >>2174406 atheism is the notion that there is no god why is that dumb stuff not a faith as well? oh wait, you're just another uneducated fool

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:16:47 2010 No.2174415 >>2174406 atheism is a faith as atheists have been unable to travel the length and breadth of the universe, along with the multiverse, to indeed prove once and for all there is no God. atheism is indeed a faith.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:16:47 2010 No.2174416 >>2174413 awww....is widdle theist butthurt today?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:19:47 2010 No.2174425 >>2174416 ye accuse me of something when you're upset it definately helps you not looking like a scared bitch atheists usually don't know what atheism is, not my fault

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:20:47 2010 No.2174428 In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. ---Douglas Adams

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:22:47 2010 No.2174434
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>>2174406
Before you can claim that you have lack of faith, you must first define faith in its purest form. The faith you see is 'delusion', the faith humanity sees is as real as it gets, based on empirical observation; faith, that as a species, we can make it through -- that we believe in God (each other) and through commitment and passion we will prosper.

The faith you speak of is 'I can sense God, fo real,' which is the 'modern-day' delusion concept, post-education. Try looking into archaic contexts, specifically latin -- the word 'fictum' meant, in those times, 'created' in a literal sense. The perfect world is fictitious.

In medieval times people would battle, and God would decide the winner -- this was decided by wisdom, courage and power of each of the opponents, the LORD God played no part in the battles, but God (humanity) played a part -- some watched the battles, some took part, some lost and others won -- it is how it goes.

The God, the faith, all of which you know is modernized, secured by 'fact'. My fiction will always defeat your fact, as your 'facts' are based on physical observation, never taking into account empirical observation (you can 'see' you know, that's not chemicals, try and perceive with better clarity).

If everything is relative, then everything can be grouped into one grouping, God, and the LORD, is the 'creator'.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:22:47 2010 No.2174437 >>2174425 >YOU'RE AN UNEDUCATED TOOL! >YOU'RE INSECURE! >YOU'RE A SCARED BITCH! >I'M THE SMARTEST PERSON ON THIS BOARD Sure you are, theist faggot, sure you are. Go sodomize a badger.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:23:47 2010 No.2174439 Naggarothian is hit and run postin', and doesn't afraid of anything

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:23:47 2010 No.2174440 >>2174434 >faith=delusion THANK YOU FOR THE CHECKMATE, DUMBFAG

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:23:47 2010 No.2174442 if not believing in something makes it a religion than everybody belongs to an infinite amount of religions.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:24:47 2010 No.2174448 >>2174439 Actually, I'm plenty afraid of death. I know there's nothing waiting for me on the other side. But at least I don't lie to myself that there is so often that I actually start believing it.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:24:47 2010 No.2174449 File: 17 KB, 366x116, Sci rules.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2174073 I know I'm a little late for this, but...pic related.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:25:47 2010 No.2174455

>>2174437
yup, you are definately incredibly mad that I point out the truth about atheists (as if it's my fault they're the dumbest peaces of shit on the world)
you think putting words in my mouth, like saying I feel smart, will somehow make you look like the superior man
well good luck with that, you still have no friends

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:25:47 2010 No.2174457 and monks singing strange chants to the affect of 'the universe is a figment of it's own imagination' were eventually given a street theater grand and send away. ---Douglas Adams

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:26:47 2010 No.2174460 >>2174448 so howcome you're atheist? because it sounds good? smart people don't judge stuff they don't grasp, it's called agnosticism

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:28:47 2010 No.2174466

>>2174231
Science isn't correct because it's magically empowered with knowledge, science is what is presently knowledge derived from reasoned investigation.
>>2174234
Religion is inherently resistant to change. Religion changes for political reasons and to stay viably believable, not because reasoned investigation contradicts dogma. If it idi, it would be the same thing as science.
>>2174347
Anthropic fail.
>>2174413
Irrational atheism is the belief that there is no god(s) without reason. Rational atheism is belied there is no god(s) based on reason.
>>2174415
Have you travelled the length and breadth of the universe to indeed prove that there is indeed no gods other than your own? No Thor? No Vishnu? No Jesus? No Baal?
>>2174434
This is just solipsism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:28:47 2010 No.2174468 A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. --Douglas Adams

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:28:47 2010 No.2174469 >report thread for rule violation an hour ago >come back an hour later, front page Fucking hell. Why the fuck haven't the mods deleted this shit yet. Fucking pathetic.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:29:47 2010 No.2174470 Agnostics-I don't know if I believe in god.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:29:47 2010 No.2174473 >>2174460 It is possible to be an agnostic atheist. It's pretty much the same thing as being a rational atheist. Gnosticism and theism are different axes.

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:30:47 2010 No.2174476
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>>2174455
>implying that I'm mad for some reason other than 'it's late at night where I live and this shithead is shitting up /sci/'
>implying that me being mad makes me wrong
>implying that he's right
>implying that Atheists aren't more intelligent on average than any religious group
>implications everywhere

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:31:47 2010 No.2174482 >>2174473 lol agnostic atheism I know I can't know but I have the notion that there is no God yes, probably a lot of people who think like that

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:32:47 2010 No.2174484 Trolls=1 Atheists=0 Christians=0

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:32:47 2010 No.2174486
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Just remember, there is only one God.
All Religions were attached to each other, if anything only separated by colours/cultures. There was never 'a' God, that implies individuality. The only type of people bringing religious wars or hatred are the Atheists, who literally believe (and this is Atheisms archaic context, pre-education + modernization) that they are 'a' God. The tyrants who wanted control believed they were 'a' God, not as one with humanity, but above them. These 'a' Gods started wars for greed and caused hatred to occur between different people by misleading them with false promises or influencing them alike the snake did eve. There is only one God, one love, one heart, humanity.

What are you without us?
What are we without you?

Without this bond, none of us exist -- there always has to be a you for an I to exist. You'll realize one day, I've already gained a massive win socially that these government fan boys will have to be very secretive in their teachings, not to let anything slip, and eventually, it will.

"Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam, In Hoc Signo Vinces"

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:33:47 2010 No.2174489 >>2174482 What makes it any worse than gnositc Christianity?

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:33:47 2010 No.2174491 >>2174460 There is neither reason nor proof, deductive or inductive, empirical or otherwise, that there is anything on the other side. Therefore, there is nothing on the other side.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:33:47 2010 No.2174492

>>2174476
why would people who delude themselves be more intelligent than others

here's something you don't know, a lot of religious people are agnostic too, just because christians stress about faith, doesn't mean no one has doubts
you can have supernatural experience after experience, it does not prove anything until you fully understand it
that's the way of science. you can impress a lot of people with wild idea's, but nothing can be known in detail until everything is known

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:34:47 2010 No.2174494 >>2174486 Fuck that. I'm keeping my glory.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:35:47 2010 No.2174498 >>2174486 EXPLAIN PAGANISM, FAGGOT

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:35:47 2010 No.2174499 >>2174491 >I know for certain there is nothing because I listen to other people, and they also don't know well nice for you, but you're still a fool

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:37:47 2010 No.2174506

>>2174499
I don't think he wasy saying it for certain. He was saying that there was no reason to believe that anything was there. It's like beleive the afterlife is a big pot of jam, you've no reason to believe it other than someone just as uninformed suggested it.

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:38:47 2010 No.2174510

>>2174499
You're just listening to other people too. Thing is, I'm listening to the people whose side the evidence is on.

How does it feel, to know deep down inside that one day you're going to die and that's going to be it? Eh? And yet you still play make believe every Sunday morning instead of accepting something that is out of your hands....

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:39:47 2010 No.2174513 >>2174506 haha you mean to say stupid people state stuff like facts even though they're unsure? >Therefore, there is nothing still spoken like a true retard

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:39:47 2010 No.2174516
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Most people are enslaved in reality as 'a' God, for they were given names/second names from birth, by their parents, to secure the fact that they are 'a' citizen. This name then becomes their persona, it builds, it is taught to them subtly in education, the simple process by signing each piece of work or the front cover of the book. This... 'name' implies you're an individual, one person.

With physical observation this is correct, you are indeed 1 person (in concept). However, when you apply the question I asked earlier:

{ What are we without you? }

You will see the empirical observation, that we do indeed rely on each other to exist, this bond between us all. This is supreme to the physical observation that follows:

{ What are (1)we without (1)you? }
{ You } - Atheism, 'a' God.
{ Us } - Theism, God.

God used to lead, before, as said in the bible, a covenant was declared as 'one' above the people, the government. Now God is lead, by a LORD figure that is conceptual.

God died.

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:40:47 2010 No.2174518

>>2174506
Wait.....as in a pot of jam with finite dimensions, or just
JAM
JAM EVERYWHERE
If the latter, how do you breath?
If not the latter, what are the dimensions of the pot? Does it have a lid?
What is the pot made of?
What lies beyond the pot? Can you leave the pot?

AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, WHAT DOES THE JAM TASTE LIKE?

Not trolling/bashing/whatever, just curious.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:40:47 2010 No.2174519 >>2174510 oh really? am I listening to people, as in having faith in other people's words or experience? prove it I can, but not the way you mean because for example: you know absolutely nothing about me. AHHAHAHAAH

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:41:47 2010 No.2174521 "Just believe everything I tell you, and it will all be very, very simple.' Ah, well, I'm not sure I believe that."

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:41:47 2010 No.2174525 >>2174516 GOOD FUCKING RIDDANCE. GET OFF /SCI/

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:41:47 2010 No.2174526

If you posit a supernatural being you'd better damn well have some evidence for it. There is an infinite number of concievable, but non existent, objects. There is a finite number of concievable, existent objects. Therefore, there is an infinitesimally small chance that a given concieved object is real, in the absence of supporting evidence. We will dismiss such claims until evidence is forthcoming.

Or in other words, if we should accept god on faith, why not that celestial teapot between mars and jupiter? Or the Invisible Pink Unicorn that lives in an atlantis constructed by almighty lord Xenu?

It's all woo, superstition and unfalsifiable nonsense. Just examine why you think other religions are false, and you will find reasons why your own is false.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:43:47 2010 No.2174530 >>2174519 Solipsism much?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:44:47 2010 No.2174535 >>2174526 >It's all woo, superstition and unfalsifiable nonsense prove it and to think I believe other religions are mistaken is shortsided I don't think I interpret christianity or the islam the way I should so therefore no opinion

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:45:47 2010 No.2174539 >>2174530 scared to argue much? no just keep speculating about my persona, it really makes you look less like an idiot if you have faith that is

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:46:47 2010 No.2174540 >>2174535 You imbecile. I demonstrated clearly that burden of proof is on you to show me evidence for your god. Otherwise I'd be expecting to find goblins under my bed because I read about them in a book. Now produce the evidence!

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:46:47 2010 No.2174541

"Now it is such a bizarrely improbable coincidence that anything so mind-bogglingly useful could have evolved purely by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as the final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist,'" says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "The Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
"Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing."

--Douglas Adams

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:48:48 2010 No.2174547

I really don't know anymore, is it worth helping these people 'see the light' when they are comfortable as slaves and unknowing? Their social well-being is secured by this conceptual false knowledge and is probably the reason why anything esoteric only attracts the adventurous and imaginative, the soldiers of freedom.

...Seeing as we live within the LORDS imagination, and between the LORDS knowledge, then the LORDS son, would be imagination, no?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:48:48 2010 No.2174548 >>2174540 >u imbascil! I stated something as a fact and you wanted proof >I don't know what you believe but my counter argument will be proof as well can you get more idiotic?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:48:48 2010 No.2174549 >>2174541 Ah, I see. So that's why theism always values credulity over evidence. If anything this makes it seem even worse.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:49:48 2010 No.2174553

>>2174548

No, I stated an argument; Russell's teapot to be exact. There is an infinitesimally small chance of any of the world's religion's being correct; this is not a certainty but it is definitely small enough for me to reject them.

I see you have no counter; having to resort to strawmen and greentext. Heh.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:51:48 2010 No.2174558 "Reality is frequently inaccurate." "Don't believe anything you read on the net. Except this. Well, including this, I suppose." ---Douglas Adams

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>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:51:48 2010 No.2174560 >>2174553 Heh. you believe you showed me while it is still you thinks he can state stuff like facts without proving anything now tell me what's my problem inb4: you are skeptical skepticism

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:52:48 2010 No.2174562 >>2174553 There is an infinitesimally small chance of any of the world's sciences being correct; this is not a certainty but it is definitely small enough for me to reject them.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:53:48 2010 No.2174564

personully i believ in God becuz he iz nicessury 2 explain the univers
leik even tho physics explains the forces and mechizism behind the interaction of particles, wut is it dat generates dose forces? shurly ae of u cud tell me dat mass generates a gravitional force, but what intrinisic property of mass allwos this? Da only answer is God.

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:53:48 2010 No.2174566

>>2174547
THERE IS NO GOD.

WHEN YOU DIE, YOU WILL CEASE TO EXIST.

THINK I'M WRONG?

THE ONLY WAY TO PROVE IT IS TO BE AN MARTYR.

>>2174539
Having faith in the words of others is a pretty safe assumption to make, unless you're a paranoid bastard. Are you a paranoid bastard?

Anyways, I started to see your argument descend into solipsism, and didn't want to go there because solipsism is for faggots. You content, faggot?

>>	the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:54:48 2010 No.2174570 I think I'm going to have to create Theism rules. 1. If you cannot describe God, don't argue for God. You cannot imply 'creator' without a definition of the being, other wise you're just using the word as your evidence.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:54:48 2010 No.2174571

>>2174560

I don't get it. Didn't I just show you my reasoning? Didn't you just fail to refute it?

I was stating an argument for an incredibly small probability of the existence of gods by chance.

I'm sorry but if you want atheists to conclusively prove a negative, you'll have to tell me why you, a denier of the invisible pink unicorn, should not also prove a negative; that SHE does not exist.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:55:48 2010 No.2174575 >>2174566 yes, I am paranoid, I don't believe random anonymous people on their words now do you think people will cease believing in god because you're mad?

>>	the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:55:48 2010 No.2174576 >>2174566 There is no death. You live in fear, whilst I'm fearless. You believe in death, I don't. Does that make me afraid or more willing to take risks? I don't see you doing anything for us, only for your own self-indulgence.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:55:48 2010 No.2174577 >>2174570 2. Thou shalt create logically consistent deities. If thy claim thy deity to be all loving, thou shalt not commit genocide in his name, nor condone slavery.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 19:56:48 2010 No.2174580 >>2174564 -2/10 Not even trying >>2174560 Well, you seem to be loosing your coherence >>2174562 Science=/=religion Science=large amount of knowledge accumulated by people using the scientific method.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:56:48 2010 No.2174583 >>2174571 exactly how should anyone deny something that is claimed to be invisible?

>>	the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:57:48 2010 No.2174584 >>2174577 making them on photoshop now.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:57:48 2010 No.2174585 >>2174576 I've lost my fear of death by coming to terms with it. Oh I know it's coming; but oblivion doesn't bother me all that much; just as long as it's quick and I don't see it coming.

>>	the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 19:57:48 2010 No.2174587 >>2174585 Then you're chasing death, whilst I'm chasing life. Death never crosses my mind.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:58:48 2010 No.2174588

>>2174580
hey niggeroth (sephiroth wannabe?), howcome you're so afraid of arguing while you're anonymous and on the fucking interwebs?
are you even less old than fucking 20 or something?

hell I can't even remember ever being scared like that
inb4 OMG you believe in hell!

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 19:58:48 2010 No.2174590 >>2174583 Indeed. It is still harder when they can simply move the object of superstition further back. First god was on a mountain; then in the clouds, then above them... Then we went in space and he still wasn't there.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:00:48 2010 No.2174593 >>2174587 You're living a lie. I have no need to be afraid of reality. Hahaha I just said death doesn't bother me. I can't believe you theists can doublethink this quickly, and turn someone's statement into it's opposite in a few seconds.

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:01:48 2010 No.2174595

>>2174576
Foolish theist, you cannot overcome death. In the end, it takes all.

Best to live it up while you can, instead sucking the cock of some being you're not even sure exists.

>>2174575
As a paranoid bastard, your opinon no longer is valid, as you clearly cannot think straight. Good day.

>>2174570
>>2174584
Take it to /b/, we don't want any of that shit. BTW,
>>2174577
was just making fun of you.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:02:48 2010 No.2174597 "We demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!" --Douglas Adams

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:02:48 2010 No.2174601 >>2174597 Hahahah the psychiatrists. I remember that. =D

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:03:48 2010 No.2174603 >>2174588 >did not read the thread 0/10

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:04:48 2010 No.2174606 File: 27 KB, 500x342, pray for world peace.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Abyssal !Ryoko/T9bc Wed Dec 8 20:04:48 2010 No.2174608 Humans will never know a God for by its nature it is out of understanding and reach. Also animals don't need Gods why should we?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:06:48 2010 No.2174611 >>2174608 other animals, you mean. We just happen to be the most awesome by virtue of space travel

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:06:48 2010 No.2174612 >>2174603 that's funny, usually when people become insecure they start accusing me of all kinds of crap, and also rate me for some reason so howcome you're scared of arguing? like I said, it's the internet

>>	the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:06:48 2010 No.2174613 >>2174593 Reality is conceptual, if you believe in reality then you're nothing but a programmed slave; what is life to you? Work 9-5, earn money, spend money.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:07:48 2010 No.2174616 "Anything that thinks logically can be fooled by something else that thinks at least as logically as it does." --Douglas Adams

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:07:48 2010 No.2174617

>>2174608
Thank you.

It's all just shit we'll never understand and never be able to prove, so let's all just agree that there is no god so that we never end up having arguments and wars over religion.

Even if we all chose to follow the same religion, fragmentation would inevitably occur, new religions would split off and we'd be right back to where we started.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:08:48 2010 No.2174620 >>2174547 Does the LORD really want you to troll 4Chan?

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:09:48 2010 No.2174622

A challenge

If this life is indeed a test and one's faith is so important. What if God actively manipulated the universe so that beliveing in him would seem illogical? This would be the best test for the faithful. By manipulating, i mean God as an omniscient transcending indescribable being who controlled scientific results and findings so that any reasonable person would not believe in god. Only those with faith who believed in him even with opposing facts staring them right in the face would be the true chosen ones.
I've always wondered this

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:09:48 2010 No.2174623

>>2174613

Far from it. I'm about to undertake a university course that will let me do what I've dreamed of since I was a kid; make computer games.

Also, isn't being a programmed slave your schtick? After all, a program implies a programmer (your god), and a slave implies an asshole authoritarian slave master (also your god).

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:10:48 2010 No.2174625 >>2174617 >let's all just agree that there is no god why.jpg so atheists don't have to feel embarrased by having faith in lies?

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:11:48 2010 No.2174628

>>2174613
>reality is conceptual
>I just went full retard
Life is the greatest thing that ever happened to us. Events with phenomenally small chances of happening had to occur in order for life to exist.

Life is an opportunity to become many great things. We must live our lives to fullest because they are all we have. If that includes working, getting caught up in the system humanity has set up for itself, then so be it.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:11:48 2010 No.2174629

>>2174622

That's fodder for the troll god hypothesis. What kind of jerk would value credulity over reason? Would such a god be worth worshipping if he did exist?

And what if we got mixed up in the swarms of superstition and didn't pick out the correct one?

If such a god did exist, he's confirmed for one troll to rule them all.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:11:48 2010 No.2174630 >>2174613 >the solipsist, incognito

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:12:48 2010 No.2174633 >>2174622 Actually, not too bad of an idea. How many people have actively "tested their faith" against all the skeptics?

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:12:48 2010 No.2174635

>>2174622
If God mas made the world so that it seems logically consistent that there is no god and that one must accept the irrational superstitious crap from one specific religion of many to please him, then he's just a sadistic dick and there's still no reason to believe in him.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:12:48 2010 No.2174636

>>2174625

Atheism isn't based on faith, it's based on skepticism. The two are mutually exclusive positions.

Theists, it IS possible to hold a position on the condition that the evidence points to it. This is called skepticism normally and science when formalized.

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:13:48 2010 No.2174637

>>2174628
Reality isn't life, reality is a construct of technology, health and words. Remove everything we have built and where are we? The beginning, pre-reality, in actuality. Actuality is life, for the strong, it's no place for ones such as you

>>	the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:13:48 2010 No.2174643 Honestly, Theists, if you cannot describe God or anything that makes actual sense, then please don't speak for all of us, speak for yourself.

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:14:48 2010 No.2174645

>>2174625
>so theists don't have to feel embarrased by having faith in lies?

FTFY

A lie is a falsehood someone else tells you, like your so called religion. If there is such thing as a god, then atheism is still not a lie, as I believed that there could not be a god from the lack of evidence, unless god is a massive troll, in which I was deceived by god itself.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:15:48 2010 No.2174650 >>2174637 And the reason you believe this apart from a fear of death is?

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:16:48 2010 No.2174652

>>2174628
even if life was something completely different, people would still love it and think they've been granted a blessing by being entertained
even if it's enjoying stupid stuff like fame

no, life is misery intended to make you learn
if nature thinks it's important that some of us can not breed, and that machines require a conscience to operate, it could also enable us eternal bliss
or would the whiney bitches of earth still get more women?

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:17:48 2010 No.2174658 >>2174637 >blahblahblah philosophic metaphyiscal crap GO SODOMIZE A BADGER >>2174643 NO ONE CAN. THAT'S WHY WE DESPISE THEM ON THIS BOARD

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:17:48 2010 No.2174659 >>2174652 Dude nature has no consciousness. For which I am glad; hive minds piss me off.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:18:48 2010 No.2174667

>>2174645
>if god exists, the notion of him not existing is not a lie
oh you
>god can be analyzed by my complete lack of knowledge, and I can assume things from it
orly

you might also want to see this show called southpark
they made an episode covering why people would still argue and go to war without believing in god
of course, one could say it was a bad example, though nothing remains further from the truth

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:19:48 2010 No.2174669

>>2174650
I don't believe it, I know it. I'm not stupid, I understand what's conceptual to make our lives easier from what's real. I don't believe in death for the occurrence is a part of nature, and everything in this universe, concept-less (no words, no numbers) equates 0 or just life/being. The death you speak of is the end, the occurrence of death, to me, is a part nature.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:20:48 2010 No.2174673 >>2174659 so why aren't there people born without misery? there's drugs that can take it away, why not natural selection?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:20:48 2010 No.2174675 File: 281 KB, 587x2494, trollfail.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2174667 >Oh people would still do bad things without religion! >Therefore, god exists! Fucking lol'd.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:21:48 2010 No.2174680 >>2174669 And your reason for believing this apart from the fear of death is?

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:22:48 2010 No.2174686

>>2174667
>uses an epsiode of south park as a reference
Oooooh boy
People may still fight for stupid reasons even if all religious and racial differences were eliminated, and they may still fight just as much, but it's morally unacceptable not to try to remove the reasons men butcher each other in this world.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:22:48 2010 No.2174688 >>2174675 >puts words in my mouth, proceeds to lol about it hmm idiots are usually laughing without a reason oh wait, they just make them up for close comfort

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:22:48 2010 No.2174690 >>2174673 Misery might be advantageous to survival/reproduction. Natural selection doens't select what is preferable, it selects attributes that are most likely to help survival and reproduction.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:23:48 2010 No.2174691 >>2174673 Man, what? I just said nature has no consciousness. It's consistent with no one being born without suffering. nature is blind.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:23:48 2010 No.2174699 QUANTUM PHYSICS DICTATES THAT THERE IS AN INFINITE NUMBER OF UNIVERSES. God exists and doesn't exist at the same time within the very fabric of reality. Atheists, Agnostics, and Theists are all wrong.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:24:48 2010 No.2174700 >>2174686 and you believe people's devotion to god is one of the root causes of war? no you just don't understand what you think

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:24:48 2010 No.2174702

Most people on this board will never experience anything more than: watching tv, writing on paper, holding money, having sex (lol probably not), looking at stuff, buying stuff. All of which are reality-based.

An animal such as a tiger, has more of a life than all of you, it experiences: hunting, adventure, exploration, it sees with full clarity, it fights and it kills, it protects and it provides; this is it's life.

Without reality, we all would experience that -- unfortunately overpopulation forced us to get civilized, so we had to create reality, which at first wasn't so restricted. In the current time we are so secured that the only thing we know is reality, there is no 'life' in reality, reality is 'death'.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:24:48 2010 No.2174705 >139 posts and 11 image replies omitted. >/sci/ >intelligent

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:25:48 2010 No.2174711 >>2174691 so why should biological machines be self aware? nah, women just like men who are always mad, amiright?

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:25:48 2010 No.2174714

>>2174633
>>2174629
>>2174635
yeah this reminds me of ctuhlu honestly. But consider the possibility that god doesn't care about our feelings toward him or what he thinks since we are lower beings. All he cares about is our faith towards him .

shit actually creeps me out.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:25:48 2010 No.2174715

>>2174688

Thats what you were implying, was it not?

That's what the episode implied.

First we eliminate ignorance, then religion, then poverty, disease, class division and finally scarcity of resources.

That will reduce the amount of suffering to a massive extent. No one damaging part in its own causes all the suffering, but they all play their part.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:26:48 2010 No.2174716 >>2174700 If I can destroy an underlying cause of violence and hate, is that not a good thing? >>2174702 FOR FUCK'S SAKE, NOW YOU SOUND LIKE THAT DUMBASS FROM /LIT/ WITH THE PHILOSOPHY DEGREE

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:27:48 2010 No.2174723

>>2174702
>hunting, adventure, exploration, it sees with full clarity, it fights and it kills, it protects and it provides; this is it's life.
Aren't these "reality based activites". I don't think you're using a standard term when you say "reality".
>>2174700
He's saying that dickheads fight for all kinds of reasons, no need to add religious differences to the list of excuses to fight.
>>2174699
Quantum mechanics is part of the natural. God, by definiton, is supernatural. Therefore, the multiverse interpretation of quantum mechanics does not posit the existence of god(s) or other supernatural things.

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:27:48 2010 No.2174725

>>2174705
>complains
>contributes

Moving on. You're all trapped within yourself, when you free your mind and remove your name, replacing it with whatever the fuck thou wants, you will understand what it is to be Theistic, until you can see what's true, please stop debating for God when you don't even know God, cause it just makes it harder for the people who know God to get the point across, it's like converting people to worship Chulutu or w/e, when you don't know what you preach. Just... shhhh. please

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:28:48 2010 No.2174727 >>2174711 Self awareness clearly aided the survival and reproduction of our ancestors. Also, why would a man be angry all the time if he was not self aware?

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:28:48 2010 No.2174729

>>2174700

It is. It is also the root cause of much ignorance (see creationism) and the propping up of authoritarian governments (see Bourbon, Romanov dynasties, damn near all of ancient China, the spanish Fascists, the italian Fascists, the Nazis...) And that's not counting hero worship cults that deify their leader, which accounts for much misery in communist nations.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:29:48 2010 No.2174731

>>2174716
is you destroying pleasure because it might lead to war better than you destroying money or private land, which is the root cause?
you are probably an idiot who thinks we should become robots to be free, maybe america will take interest in your views of society

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:29:48 2010 No.2174735 >>2174714 No way of knowing. No point in trying. What if believing the wrong thing makes him madder than believing nothing?

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:29:48 2010 No.2174736 >>2174725 LEAVE THIS BOARD, FAGGOT. LEAVE IT AND NEVER RETURN TO IT. ALTERNATIVELY, BE AN MARTYR. EITHER OPTION WORKS WONDERS FOR YOUR GOD.

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:30:48 2010 No.2174740

>>2174723
these aren't reality based activities, these are natural activities, as said before, reality is conceptual, full of 'super'-natural concepts that dictate how people live within it.

do you think the computer you're using is natural?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:30:48 2010 No.2174743 >>2174702 Go live 'off the land' for a few weeks. Natural lives are nasty, brutish and short. Above all they are unhealthy and require crippling amounts of manual labour. Fucking luddites piss me off.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:31:48 2010 No.2174745

>>2174727
so you're implying that anger is somehow attractive for reproduction?
and state why you think it's clear that we need self awareness in order to make choices like putting your own life in first interest
you're greatly underestimating artificial intelligence

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:31:48 2010 No.2174747

I like science, and I am religious. Ultimately, however, I find that I believe the general "scientific" worldview most commonly accepted by people on /sci/ is wrong. Not that that is the fault of science, just that most people want a dogma to follow without thinking, and limits to stay within.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:31:48 2010 No.2174748 >>2174736 Look, u mad. I don't like the guy either, but there's no point in getting all pissy.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:31:48 2010 No.2174749 >>2174731 It's not pleasure, money or land that's the underlying problem......it's scarcity of resources.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:32:48 2010 No.2174757 >>2174731 No fucking way you're not a troll.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:33:48 2010 No.2174759 >>2174747 Sorry man, you're compartmentalising. Try applying that methodological naturalism to religion and see how long it lasts.

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:33:48 2010 No.2174762

>>2174743
that's only because of the effect reality has had on nature, plus now we have something to compare it too. More so, most people won't have any ability to live naturally. A child born into nature would become conditioned to it, in the same fashion as a child who gets used to reality. You bring a child who grew up in nature to reality, he/she won't see it as the better choice, it's alike a prison, I'm pretty sure the child would prefer to be free.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:33:48 2010 No.2174763 File: 5 KB, 202x222, 4.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2174622 >you just blew my mind

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:34:48 2010 No.2174770 >>2174762 >>that's only because of the effect reality has had on nature Oh, you mean how reality doesn't measure up to the standards you set it in your mindbound fantasy land?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:34:48 2010 No.2174771 "the chances of finding out what really is going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is to say hang the sense of it and just keep yourself occupied." --Douglas Adams

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:34:48 2010 No.2174772 >>2174743 >Natural lives are nasty, brutish and short. Above all they are unhealthy and require crippling amounts of manual labour. This is complete bullshit, and shows your total ignorance of the subject. Why so eager to believe cultural propaganda?

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:34:48 2010 No.2174773

>>2174745
>so you're implying that anger is somehow attractive for reproduction?
never once implied
>and state why you think it's clear that we need self awareness in order to make choices like putting your own life in first interest
Hell if I know, I'm not a psychologist. It's just a conclusion that can be drawn by the fact that self awareness is such a prevalent trait amongst our species.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:35:48 2010 No.2174774 >>2174740 do you think the computer you're using is natural? It's natural as opposed to supernatural. Supernatural things are beyond the fundamental laws of nature/reality, like god.

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:36:48 2010 No.2174780

>>2174770
So nature is fantasy now is it?
And I mean 'pollution', depletion of resource, destruction of species, etc etc.

Real humans defend nature.
You're not a real human, you forgot your roots, and you enjoy helping destroy them.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:37:48 2010 No.2174785

>>2174749
yes and private ownership of every little thing on the world is not the true cause of misery?
even if there was plenty of everything (which is the case) people would still declare that they first saw it and own it
basically it comes down to passion, some desperately want the world for their own, and everything that is satisfying will not last
however a sage is never unhappy, the passionate reality of nature does not affect him anymore
while an atheist only shouts that god does not exist on message boards, and will never be satisfied with anything

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:37:48 2010 No.2174786 >>2174772 Actually, anthropology agrees (assuming you're using science as the basis for your complaint and not the book of Gensis). >>2174745 Anger may be advantageos to survival, which makes reproduction more likely.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:37:48 2010 No.2174788

>>2174759
>Try applying that methodological naturalism

This would be part of what I think is wrong with that worldview.

But also, "religion" to me is not a set of statements about supernatural things; it is an inner drive to seek and understand, a yearning to become more than we are and to connect with whatever transcendence we can find. So I'm not really compartmentalizing, because I think that religion is completely compatible with science. In fact religion often gives the motivation that has led to wonderful scientific discoveries.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:38:48 2010 No.2174794

>>2174772

I've studied history. There used to be a time when the majority of people were farmers. Food was scarce, and even with redistribution of wealth things would not have been much better off. This was the middle ages.

Then the industrial revolution came along. With advances in agriculture and industry suddenly the labour of one man could produce wonders as well as subsistence. It is this multiplier of labour by technology that has brought us the wonders of the 21st century. Read about pre industrial times before you go spouting luddite crap into the internet.

Inb4 the middle ages was fabricated in a conspiracy

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:39:48 2010 No.2174796 >>2174762 >hurrdurr living like an animal is the best thing ever Well, what are you waiting for? Go out there! For Fuck's Sake, where is NIGGER?

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:39:48 2010 No.2174797

>>2174774
supernatural in this context is 'above' nature, it controls nature, when nature is meant to control it. The technology is built from nature by 'supernatural' beings who control nature/their natures -- the technology then controls the flow of nature or abstracts it. You put a wall in front of a dog then it will stop walking in that direction - the wall was not built by nature, it was built by man, therefore it's supernatural.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:39:48 2010 No.2174798 >>2174785 >an atheist only shouts that god does not exist on message boards, and will never be satisfied with anything I had a really good lamb stew for dinner. Pretty satisfying, bro.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:39:48 2010 No.2174801 >>2174786 >Actually, anthropology agrees No, it doesn't. Anthopologists know that uncivilized cultures have evolved efficient systems for meeting their needs, and they have lived without most of the health problems that plague modern society.

>>	the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:40:48 2010 No.2174803 reality is supernatural, from natures P.O.V, isthisreallife.jpg

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:40:48 2010 No.2174804 >>2174788 My apologies, you were using a different definition of religion. I wouldn't call that religion; I'd just call it You. What I take issue with is the theist religions, and to an extent deism because its arguments are used by theists.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:40:48 2010 No.2174808 >>2174794 >Read about pre industrial times read about pre-agricultural times before you go spouting irrelevant and useless crap.

>>	the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:41:48 2010 No.2174810 good night, gotta get up tomorrow. as always, enjoy dribbling over your keyboards, slaves.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:41:48 2010 No.2174813 >>2174797 Man is part of nature. He obeys nature's laws and is bound by them. Building walls or computers is a natural process, like beavers building a dam or a sun converting mass to energy.

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:41:48 2010 No.2174817 >>2174785 >private ownership is the cause of all wars Get out of here, commie faggot. >>2174780 >>2174797 >blawblawblaw, hippy shit >nature, man You disgust me.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:41:48 2010 No.2174818 >>2174810 >I'm a faggot and I'm backing out.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:41:48 2010 No.2174819 >>2174801 Oh sure. Ever wondered where the teeth in all them skulls went? At one point, it is estimated through genetic backtracking that the human species was down to a few thousand members via attrition.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:43:48 2010 No.2174824 >>2174801 Oh yeah? Which ones? Seen the fertile crescent recently? The one that survived is western civilisation.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:43:48 2010 No.2174825 >>2174817 Not the guy you were raging at. Wealth inequality does cause a lot of suffering.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:44:48 2010 No.2174827

>>2174804
I am aware that /sci/ uses the word "religion" differently, but frankly I consider that a deceptive tactic meant to distance science from what it has in common with religion.

I am not any more happy about the typical modern christian (or for that matter, most theist) views than you are.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:44:48 2010 No.2174830

>>2174773
oh so if every sort of animal had a third leg, it's evidence that it was needed?
our body is nothing but a machine with flesh and blood, why wouldn't nature be able to create lifeforms that do not think while nature clearly can
no, biologists have no clue why creatures can contemplate stuff, you don't have the answer as well

as for there not being eternally happy people born, your question had nothing to do with what I said in the first place, yet you imply that you dissagree

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:44:48 2010 No.2174831 AAAAAND THE FAGGOT IS GONE If we're lucky, one of these days we're going to say something so cruel to him that he bursts out into tears and never comes back to /sci/. That, or he becomes an martyr.

the jesuit, incognito !Mj4YVMqnbk Wed Dec 8 20:45:48 2010 No.2174835

>>2174813
In short, no.

That would imply that all of this was meant to happen and is a result of natures harmonic motion, that none of us have free-will amongst other things.

A cat does not build computers,
A human builds computers.

These are not natural, these are super-natural. A man uses nature to create supernatural objects/inventions that then control his/her nature. Because of the hollow we may use the cup, the 'hollow' is nature, the 'cup' built around it is 'super natural'

Now i have to go,
inb4; omg he's running etc etc.
/care, I'm here erry day, see you tomorrow.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:45:48 2010 No.2174837 >>2174819 Most skulls predating agriculture have fully formed arches, and have no wisdom tooth problems. >>2174824 WTF are you talking about?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:45:48 2010 No.2174838 >>2174827 If you call it religion you'll confuse damn near everyone you talk about it with.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:46:48 2010 No.2174842 >>2174817 afraid to argue, just call people names without having to go into detail well if you have no clue to begin with, why pretend you do?

>>	Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:46:48 2010 No.2174843 >>2174830 >oh so if every sort of animal had a third leg, it's evidence that it was needed? Unless it's a vestigial trait, yes. Rest is just shitposting.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:48:48 2010 No.2174851 >>2174838 I know, but I will do so anyway, because it is more important to me to use meaningful, useful, and honest definitions than to use the commonly accepted ones. And I don't think the way the word gets used around here is honest.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:49:48 2010 No.2174859

>>2174825
This. It's possible to have reasonably free markets that are regulated to the degree that an excessive delta develops between rich and poor.
>>2174830
Computers obey the laws of nature. They are natural. Natural order is not the same as determinism, it is possible to have free will and exist within nature.
Most biological attribues (including a hypothetical third leg) are shown to have, at least at one stage, been advantageous to survival and/or reproduction.>>2174835

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:49:48 2010 No.2174864

>>2174835

Free-will as a concept is poorly-defined. Being motivated by randomness is worse than determinism, because it would make your actions unconnected to reality.

The one thing I've seen that fits the bill is determinism coupled with the uncertainty principle. If you actually try predicting what someone will you, you will by neccessity alter their brain state with your measuring device, changing their actions.

In other words, if you see someone trying to predict what you will do, you might change your action just to spite them.

Real free-will, not free-will in the libertarian sense, is caused but unpredictable.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:50:48 2010 No.2174867 >>2174837 So why did people take up agriculture if it was so harmful?

Naggarothian Wed Dec 8 20:50:48 2010 No.2174870

>>2174842
Private ownership is not the cause of all wars. Scarcity is. Scarcity either makes us greedy or desperate for resources, which then leads to war. Eliminate scarcity, and only greed remains. Greed then stops being a cause of war, because it's more profitable not to wage war.

The rest is just blatant hippy get back to nature shit. If it was better not to be a part of society, society never would've even been formed.

Now that faggot is gone, I should probably get studying fro exam tomorrow....yeash, probably shouldn't even have gone on /sci/ and just studied all night. Well, so long!

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:51:48 2010 No.2174873 Thousands of people have seen God, witnessed miracles, or seen angels. But of course those don't count because they don't fit your Godless world views.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:53:48 2010 No.2174886

>>2174859

Ironically a true free market requires regulation to prevent the formation of monopolies and oligopolies, keep barriers to entry low and also to ensure labour has enough bargaining power to stand toe to toe with capital.

The lassez-faire idea subverts its goal with its methods.

In addition to the above, you need a populace that can buy the products of industry which means paying your workers well.

All that adds up to social democracy and highly regulated capitalism.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:54:48 2010 No.2174890

>>2174843
nah, you only respond to stuff that you think you know the answer to
and you are extremely insecure about it

no, just seeing something happen more than once is not reason to believe it has to happen in order for there to be life
for all we know, animals on earth chose an entirely different path to evolve than animals on other planets
you can't pinpoint what requires what in order to function
there can always be endless alternatives, and don't pretend you know nature's plan when it comes to adding new functions
people believe it's entirely random, so any species can be born to inherit any kind of conscience

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:54:48 2010 No.2174893

>>2174867
It was a slow process of moving from hunter/gathering to agriculture in a very small portion of the world where there were lots of statistical advantages to easy agriculture: viable crops, fertile land, reliable climate, docile animals, other sources of food, etc..

Even then, there's all kinds of evidence to show that the first few generations of people practicing agriculture in a given are tend to have fared less well than hunter/gatherers in the same area.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:55:48 2010 No.2174897

>>2174873

Ha, I've read about some of these 'miracles'. Someone prays while sick and gets better?

Really? I played videogames when I was sick and I got better. Couldn't have been my body's immune system.

Such sloppy methodology is why theism is incompatible with science. Show me a nice controlled study.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:55:48 2010 No.2174898 >>2174873 Same is true of aliens, bigfoot, Elvis, yetis, etc.. Doesn't mean they exist either.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:56:48 2010 No.2174904 >>2174893 Except they have obviously fared better for the same reasons you cited. Whenever people can afford it, they choose civilization.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:57:48 2010 No.2174909 >>2174890 whatthefuckamireading.jpg

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:57:48 2010 No.2174910

>>2174867
Good question, but so far as I know there is no one accepted answer, and there may well be no one reason. Some commonly accepted factors are: when nomadic tribes become settled fishing tribes they develop permanent cultivation practices and growing populations for which agriculture was a beneficial adaptation; the megafauna overkill hypothesis if true can explain why populations lost easy access to large sources of meat. Going by game theory, any culture which does not take up agriculture in the midst of cultures who do will be outbred by the agrarian cultures or killed off by them for their land. And that's more common than people converting to sedentary agrarian lifestyles, IIRC. There's also the mythological angle, which says that agriculture was taught by "the gods" or other mythical beings, but I really don't know how to interpret that in a sensical way.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:58:48 2010 No.2174922

>>2174870
you're just guessing

in reality, people don't tend to miss stuff they don't experience
so scarcity has nothing to do with war

no, war is about a warlord desiring more of what he has, even if he had the exact same as everyone else, he'd still desire more
it's power, not resources

we could already feed the entire planet if we wanted to, but no, profit comes first
and people are lead to believe that they will only acquire happiness with currency

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:59:48 2010 No.2174926 >>2174910 There's one massive problem. The earth's carrying capacity would do better with frigging organic food than hunting. And adopting organic food worldwide would cause mass starvation of billions.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 20:59:48 2010 No.2174928

>>2174897
A controlled study of what exactly? What are you looking for?

>>2174898
You believe all of them are false, I believe some of them are true based on the evidence of witnesses.

The same could be said of any human experience. I bet you believe Plato existed, Shakespeare, or Napoleon. Show me a controlled experiment that proves to me that Caesar was real.

I'll say it again. THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE FOR FAITH. So stop with your bullshit.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:00:48 2010 No.2174934

>>2174904
Well, no. First of all the skeletal record shows that they were shorter, had worse dental health, and weak bones. They also worked much harder and probably had much less leisure time in comparison to the lives of modern HGs we know of. They were also subject to hierarchical authority much more than the relatively egalitarian HG bands.

For the most part, HG tribes don't convert to agriculture, they get killed off, and the agriculturalists who take their land breed many more agriculturalists.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:00:48 2010 No.2174937

>>2174928

We know human beings exist, we have significant historical records of the Roman Empire, and we have many MANY corroborrating documents confirmed to be authentic from that period.

You won't find that for any religion. There was for example no trace of any adam or eve in our genetic lineage, nor any archaological pieces indicating that the jews were enslaved in egypt.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:01:48 2010 No.2174939 >>2174870 yea run away dumbass and have the nerve to call people faggots while refusing to go into specific arguments

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:02:48 2010 No.2174954 >>2174928 A controlled study of miracles would be useful. If they exist we should be able to instigate a requested impossible event with lots of praying.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:04:48 2010 No.2174965 >>2174909 are you dense by any chance?

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:04:48 2010 No.2174969

>>2174926
What do mean by "carrying capacity" though? My recollection is that most estimates of pre-agricultural world pop. figures never go above half a billion at the most. Certainly six billion people cannot be fed with a HG manner of food production. But more does not necessarily mean better; right now fossil fuels are in heavy use to feed those six billion, and the agricultural techniques used to produce the food have led to infectious disease problems, health problems, water pollution problems, and massive soil erosion. It may be the case that we are exceeding the world's carrying capacity of humans in an overshoot event which will end badly as fossil fuels become less plentiful.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:04:48 2010 No.2174971

>>2174928
>A controlled study of what exactly? What are you looking for?
I'm guessing prayer's effect on things like recovery. FWIW, I've seen them and prayer was shown to very slightly suggest it does more harm than good.
>>2174928
>You believe all of them are false, I believe some of them are true based on the evidence of witnesses.
Not evidence.
>The same could be said of any human experience. I bet you believe Plato existed, Shakespeare, or Napoleon. Show me a controlled experiment that proves to me that Caesar was real.
Solipsism.
>I'll say it again. THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE FOR FAITH. So stop with your bullshit.
"Evidence for faith" is an oxymoron.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:06:48 2010 No.2174986 >>2174954 we don't even know how to study natural phenomenon we are always just saying: oh it happens twice, that means it always happens even if you're completely oblivious to all the factors happening and causing

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:07:48 2010 No.2174997 >>2174971 >evidence of faith is an oxymoron because Solipsism?

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:07:48 2010 No.2174999

>read thread
>no one here knows a single thing about their own religious choices
>no one here can be tolerant of different beliefs
fuckin sheeple man... why can't everyone just believe what they want to believe without
>YOU'RE SO MUCH STUPIDER THAN ME BECAUSE YOU ARE DISAGREEING WITH ME

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:08:48 2010 No.2175003

I have told this to few people, gentlemen, and I suspect never will again, but one day when I was a young boy on holiday in Uberwald I was walking along the bank of a stream when I saw a mother otter with her cubs. A very endearing sight, I'm sure you will agree, and even as I watched, the mother otter dived into the water and came up with a plump salmon, which she subdued and dragged on to a half-submerged log. As she ate it, while of course it was still alive, the body split and I remember to this day the sweet pinkness of its roes as they spilled out, much to the delight of the baby otters who scrambled over themselves to feed on the delicacy. One of nature's wonders, gentlemen: mother and children dining upon mother and children. And that's when I first learned about evil. It is built in to the very nature of the universe. Every world spins in pain. If there is any kind of supreme being, I told myself, it is up to all of us to become his moral superior. -Havelock Vetinari

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:09:48 2010 No.2175014 File: 8 KB, 417x429, agnostic.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2174999 Butthurt agnostic detected

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:09:48 2010 No.2175015

>>2174965
No.
>>2174890
>nah, you only respond to stuff that you think you know the answer to
Christ.
>no, just seeing something happen more than once is not reason to believe it has to happen in order for there to be life
for all we know, animals on earth chose an entirely different path to evolve than animals on other planets
>implying animals "choose" how to evolve
>you can't pinpoint what requires what in order to function
You can to a reasonable degree.
>there can always be endless alternatives, and don't pretend you know nature's plan when it comes to adding new functions
>implying nature has a plan
>people believe it's entirely random, so any species can be born to inherit any kind of conscience
Genetic traits are inheritable, so a genetic trait that is advantageous for survival/reproduction tends to lead to a group of animals tend to get naturally selected due to their genetic advantage.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:09:48 2010 No.2175016

>>2174954
>A controlled study of miracles would be useful. If they exist we should be able to instigate a requested impossible event with lots of praying.

Assuming that the miracle granter isn't annoyed by people testing it. You need a cooperative diety for the test you're asking for.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:10:48 2010 No.2175018 >>2174873 >>Thousands of people have seen God, witnessed miracles, or seen angels. But of course those don't count because they don't fit your Godless world views. Thousands also claim to have been abducted by UFOs and seen ghosts.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:10:48 2010 No.2175020 >>2174997 By definition. Faith is belief in the absence of evidence.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:12:48 2010 No.2175029

>>2175016

Well if he's not the troll god outlined earlier, deliberately fooling people for the lulz, wouldn't he want to settle the question once and for all?

For that matter why isn't everyone a theist of one kind of religion? Why isn't the knowledge beamed into our heads? And why do religions fragment and split into sects all the time?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:14:48 2010 No.2175042 >>2175016 All the arguments for theism seem not to be able to avoid the idea that if god exists he's a dick.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:14:48 2010 No.2175046

>>2174954
>>2174971
You are unfortunately assuming that God wants to be found through the scientific method. Face it, if he wants to remain anonymous and to have people believe in him only through faith then efforts like studying the effects of prayer on healing is worthless.

It seems that the only thing he's willing to allow at this point is evidence through human witnesses. We must have faith that those who have seen him aren't lying but there IS enough evidence from witnesses for faith.

Dear God it's like talking to a brick. Just admit that you have an anti-religion agenda and refuse to listen to anything to the contrary because that's exactly what you're doing.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:15:48 2010 No.2175053 >>2175042 Ah, but they're slippery. They try to grant god different moral standards, which ironically lets us compare him to others who thought they were above human standards. The worst of the worst.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:17:48 2010 No.2175060

>>2175029
Again, I think you're assuming a lot about the motivations or desires of this proposed God. You're pretty much picturing a God who is almost entirely like you, at least in mindset, except that it's supernatural. God may not consider empiricism a good epistemological path for people to be on, and may therefore not want to condone it by participating in the experiment.

>For that matter why isn't everyone a theist of one kind of religion? Why isn't the knowledge beamed into our heads?

I'm sure you've heard the "free will" argument in response to that one before.

>And why do religions fragment and split into sects all the time?

Well, people are dumb, they get things wrong, they change their minds, etc...

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:17:48 2010 No.2175062

>>2175042
Or, maybe he has a greater plan involved.

Think of this. If you knew God was real and acted like an asshole to everyone then God's going to have to come down on you pretty hard come judgment day but if you act like a dick your whole life at LEAST you have the excuse that you didn't really know what you were doing.

It's a valid enough reason to believe that the reason God remains in hiding is for 2 reasons, he wants us to learn to do shit on our own and if we acted like dicks to each other with full knowledge of God then he'd have to punish us extremely severely. By allowing us to rely on faith we're freed from a harsher punishment.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:18:48 2010 No.2175066 >>2175046 >>2175053 So the choice is that either god doens't exist or he does exist and is a petty cunt who wants to fuck around with people's live to get his rocks off.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:18:48 2010 No.2175068 >>2175042 "a dick" in this case means "doesn't agree with the person proposing the test about the ultimate value of what the tester wants to accomplish".

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:18:48 2010 No.2175069

>>2175046

So god isn't willing to communicate.... except when he is?

He's willing to beam knowledge into a few people's heads but not everyone's?

I smell bullshit.

>Dear God it's like talking to a brick. Just admit that you have an anti-religion agenda and refuse to listen to anything to the contrary because that's exactly what you're doing.

No, atheists don't have a dogma. You must be mistaking us for yourself again. Believing things without evidence and raging against skepticism is your thing.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:19:48 2010 No.2175075 >>2174347 "Why red" is not a properly grammatically formed question in the least. Strawman arguments, derping and herping, why-haven't-you-killed-yourself-already-ing, and such and so forth.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:20:48 2010 No.2175081

>>2175062

That's insane. Keeping people in ignorance, stopping them taking responsibility for their actions? Oh and then sending them to hell for things they weren't responsible for, for lulz?

Tsk tsk. Don't make me bring out the Tale of Twelve Officers.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:20:48 2010 No.2175083 >>2175069 >He's willing to beam knowledge into a few people's heads but not everyone's? A person is generally willing to have sex with some people, but not everyone. This kind of thing is hardly unprecedented.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:22:48 2010 No.2175095

>>2175062
If that is the case, then why does he even need recognition? Surely, if he wanted to test us for possible inclusion in his celestial VIP lounge it'd be a better idea to see how we fared without the threat of posthumous force. If someone avoids being a dick for the sake of getting into heaven then they're still a dick, they just weigh the outcomes. Although, that might actually make sense if god hates epistimology and stats so he doesn't care about how his datasets are generated.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:23:48 2010 No.2175100 >>2175083 The leaps of faith here are staggering. Why assume that talking to people is like sex? Why assume this ridiculously convoluted type of god instead of following Occam's razor?

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:24:48 2010 No.2175108 >>2175083 So god bestows knowledge of himself on those he wishes to bone? Makes sense. "Let me tell you about my boat." Moses must've been a cutie.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:26:48 2010 No.2175120 >>2175100 For that matter why does god need genitalia? Oh, right. The whole adultery with mary thing. Bow chicka-bow-wow.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:27:48 2010 No.2175132

>>2175100
I see leaps of faith in your reasoning, frankly. You've come to the conclusion that the divine ought to be judged by your own personal standards. That would be a ridiculous idea for anyone to apply to black holes, quantum vacuum fluctuations or even simple global climate changes. Yet you do it so readily in this realm.

As for the comparison to sex, it is not a great stretch. You are aware of what the term "knowledge" implies in "the biblical sense", yes? There is also fairly tradition in spiritual circles about knowledge being akin to sexual union.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:28:48 2010 No.2175140 >>2175132 >spiritual circles mystical circles

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:28:48 2010 No.2175143 >>2175132 Physical phenomena do very well according to human standards of existence, thank you. Gods do not.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:29:48 2010 No.2175147 >>2175132 Fucking lol. First theism and now talking = sex. We're off the tower of woo and into Narnia now.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:30:48 2010 No.2175152 >>2175143 >Physical phenomena do very well according to human standards of existence, thank you. Yeah, the whole wave/particle at the same time but not quite and something else as well thing really fits so well into normal modes of human thought.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:31:48 2010 No.2175159 >>2175152 Yeah actually it does. Ever heard of mathematics? Inb4 science is a religion

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:31:48 2010 No.2175163 >>2175014 lol... not even close to agnostic

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:32:48 2010 No.2175168 >>2175159 Fact of the matter is that physics has required new concepts and often entirely non-intuitive ones at that.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:33:48 2010 No.2175171 >>2175168 Which still held up to human standards of evidence.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:35:48 2010 No.2175183 >>2175171 and are derived from reasonable conjecture and evidence.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:35:48 2010 No.2175186

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mark_vuletic/five.html

It was, of course, sad to hear that Ms. K had been slowly raped and murdered by a common thug over the course of one hour and fifty-five minutes; but when I found out that the ordeal had taken place in plain sight of twelve fully-armed off-duty police officers, who ignored her terrified cries for help, and instead just watched until the act was carried to its gruesome end, I found myself facing a personal crisis. You see, the officers had all been very close friends of mine, but now I found my trust in them shaken to its core. Fortunately, I was able to talk with them afterwards, and ask them how they could have stood by and done nothing when they could so easily have saved Ms. K.

"I thought about intervening," said the first officer, "but it occurred to me that it was obviously better for the murderer to be able to exercise his free will than to have it restricted. I deeply regret the choices he made, but that's the price of having a world with free agents. Would you rather everyone in the world were a robot? The attacker's choices certainly weren't in my control, so I can't be held responsible for his actions."

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:36:48 2010 No.2175192

>>2175147
Of course, I don't expect you to actually *value* the various traditions of thought in theology, spirituality or mysticism, but the ideas you're arguing against are not serious theories, they're basically strawmen at this point. Unless your standard is the idiots of american fundementalism, in which case well done, you've outmaneuvered retards, BFD.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:36:48 2010 No.2175199 >>2175183 Exactly! A standard created by us that happens to work very well.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:37:48 2010 No.2175204

"Well," said the second officer, "my motivation was a little bit different. I was about to pull my gun on the murderer when I thought to myself, 'But wait, wouldn't this be a perfect opportunity for some unarmed bystander to exercise selfless heroism, should he chance to walk by? If I were to intervene all the time like I was just about to, then no one would ever be able to exercise such a virtue. In fact, everyone would probably become very spoiled and self-centered if I were to prevent every act of rape and murder.' So I backed off. It's unfortunate that no one actually showed up to heroically intervene, but that's the price of having a universe where people can display virtue and maturity. Would you rather the world were nothing but love, peace, and roses?"

"I didn't even consider stepping in," said the third officer. "I probably would have if I hadn't had so much experience of life as a whole, since Ms. K's rape and murder admittedly seems pretty horrible when taken in isolation. But when you put it into context with the rest of life, it actually adds to the overall beauty of the big picture. Ms. K.'s screams were like the discordant notes that make fine musical pieces better than they would have been had all the notes been flawless. In fact, I could scarcely keep from waving my hands around, imagining that I myself was conducting the delicious nuances of the orchestra."

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:38:48 2010 No.2175208

"When I first arrived on the scene, I actually drew my gun and pointed it right at the rapist's head," confessed the fourth officer, with a very guilty look on his face. "I'm deeply ashamed I did that. Do you know how close I came to destroying all of the goodness in the world? I mean, we all know there can't be any good without evil. Fortunately, I remembered this just in time, and a wave of such strong nausea came over me when I realized what I had almost done, that it knocked me to my hands and knees. Man, was that a close one."

"Look, there's really no point in my trying to explain the details to you," said the fifth officer, who we had nicknamed 'Brainiac' because he had an encyclopedic knowledge of literally everything and an IQ way off the charts. "There's an excellent reason for why I did not intervene, but it's just way too complicated for you to understand, so I'm not even going to bother trying. I mean, you admit you are nowhere near as knowledgeable as I am, so what right do you have to judge? Just so there's no misunderstanding, though, let me point out that no one could care about Ms. K. more than I did, and that I am, in fact, a very good person. That settles that."

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:39:48 2010 No.2175219 >>2175192 Traditions should be discontinued if they are wrong. I hear slavery had a nice tradition.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:40:48 2010 No.2175221

"I would have defended Ms. K," said the sixth officer, who was notoriously careful about staying out of the public eye, "but it simply was not feasible. You see, I want everyone to freely choose to believe in me. But if I were to step in every time someone was about to be raped or murdered, then the evidence would be so clear-cut that everyone would be forced to believe in me. Can you imagine a more diabolical infringement upon their free wills? Obviously, it was better for me to back off and let Ms. K be raped and murdered. Now everyone can freely choose to believe that there is this extraordinary cop out there who loves them like his own children."

"What are you complaining about?" exclaimed the seventh officer when I turned to him, his eyebrows shooting up in exasperated disbelief. "I just saved a woman from getting raped and murdered last week! Do I have to jump in every time I see something like that about to happen? I would say the fact that more women are not raped and murdered in this city is almost miraculous testimony to my goodness."

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:41:48 2010 No.2175228

The eighth officer, too, looked frustrated. "Nothing I do is good enough! Do you know how much worse it could have been? The thug actually had a blowtorch with him when he started out, but I said 'No way, not on my watch,' and knocked it away from him with my nightstick. Sure, I let him keep the switchblade, the pliers, the coat hanger, and the vial of acid, but think how much worse it would have been with a blowtorch! Ms. K should have thanked her lucky stars that someone so loving was there to watch over her."

"I'll let you in on a secret," said the ninth officer."Moments after Ms. K. flatlined, I had her resuscitated, and flown to a tropical resort where she is now experiencing extraordinary bliss, and her ordeal is just a distant memory. I'm sure you would agree that that's more than adequate compensation for her suffering, so the fact that I just stood there watching instead of intervening has no bearing at all on my goodness."

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:41:48 2010 No.2175229

>>2175171
I think you're on a different track than I'm on there... In science, one has to adapt ones ideas about the world in order to understand what the world is really like. You can't just declare that the world ought to work the way that would make sense to you and call foul when someone finds out that it doesn't.

Yet in the realm of religion, people have no trouble expecting that the divine or supernatural things postulated ought to have exactly the same kind of mindset or values as they do.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:42:48 2010 No.2175232

The tenth officer gave us all quite a start when he revealed a surprising secret about Ms. K. "I genetically engineered her from scratch. I made her, therefore she's my property, and I can do whatever I want with her. I could rape and murder her myself if I were so inclined, and it would be no worse than you tearing up a piece of paper you own. So there is no question of my being a bad person for not helping her."

The eleventh officer chimed in, gesturing at the tenth officer "I hired him to create Ms. K for me, because I wanted someone to love and worship me. But when I approached Ms. K about the matter, she actually turned away from me, as though she could find meaning and happiness with someone else! So I decided the loving thing to do would be to break her spirit by arranging to have her raped and murdered by a common thug, so that she might turn to me in her extraordinary suffering, thereby fulfilling the purpose for which she had been created. Well, mission accomplished, I'm happy to say! A few seconds before she died, she was so insane with terror and pain that she actually convinced herself she loved me, since she knew that only I could end her ordeal. I'll never forget the love in her eyes when she looked up at me the last time, begging for mercy, right before the thug bent over and slit her throat. It was so beautiful it still brings me to tears. Now I just have to go to that island so she can claim her prize of servitude."

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:43:48 2010 No.2175240 >>2175219 I'm not arguing for traditionalism. And being intellectually progressive does not get you off the hook from knowing the meanings of things you're investigating.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:43:48 2010 No.2175242 >>2175229 We adapt our ideas, yes, but they remain human ideas. We don't use godsent moral codes for our laws and I'm very glad we don't. I'd like to live in a pluralistic and tolerant society with free speech.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:44:48 2010 No.2175245

"Well, this is quite a coincidence," chuckled the twelfth officer. "It looks like the thug got himself double pay, because I actually hired him to carry out the murder, too! Why? Oh, well it was just a test. Ms. K and I had been dating for some time (no offense, I didn't know she was someone else's property), and one beautiful night she finally told me she loved me. So, naturally, I wanted to see whether this was indeed love - that is, whether she would continue to adore me even while drowning in a pool of her own tears and blood, with me standing before her doing nothing."

By now, it had become clear to me that any difficulty I might have had in reconciling the presumed goodness of the officers with their behavior that day was unfounded, and that anyone who sided against them could do so only for love of evil over good. After all, anyone who has experienced their friendship in the way I have knows that they are good. Their goodness is even manifest in my life - I was in a shambles before I met them, but now everyone remarks on what a changed person I am, so much kinder and happier, apparently possessed of an inner calm. And I have met so many others who feel exactly the same way about them - so many who, like me, know in their hearts the truth that others try to rationalize away with their cold reason and sterile logic. I am ashamed that I ever doubted the entitlement of the twelve officers to my loyalty and my love.

As I was getting ready to leave, the first officer spoke up again. "By the way, I also think you should know that when we stood there watching Ms. K. get raped and stabbed over and over, we were suffering along with her, and we experienced exactly the same pain she did, or perhaps even more." And everyone in the room, myself included, nodded his head in agreement.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:45:48 2010 No.2175249 >>2175242 So would I. But that's not the point.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:46:48 2010 No.2175255 >>2175240 And we should just accept your particular 'meaning' because you tell us to? The skeptics of the world have need of empirical evidence.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:48:48 2010 No.2175273 >>2175255 So go learn about theology, then.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:50:48 2010 No.2175287

>>2175273

Theology doesn't deal in empirical evidence. Hell it doesn't even define what it's supposed to be studying.

According to christian theology god cursed the human race for acquiring knowledge in an event we know now never took place, because the people it involved never existed.

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:52:48 2010 No.2175293 >Relgion vs science war >270 posts and 13 image replies omitted ಠ_ಠ

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 21:54:48 2010 No.2175302

>>2175287
As I said, I don't expect you to value it, but with the middle school understanding you exhibit of theology and spiritual traditions, your arguments are pretty much always going to be confined to the retarded US evangelical bunch. That's probably good enough for you, though, so by all means... enjoy.

Anonymous Wed Dec 8 22:07:48 2010 No.2175347

>>2175287
>still doesnt know anything about theology
ok let me give this to you straight. Theoretically, everything that ever happens is the purposeful INTENT of God. The Devils existence, is merely to provide a balance to this world. Life IS about balance, and if you are atheist or theist you should know this. Evil's purpose in life is to test and strengthen us, ever heard of "what doesn't kill me only makes me stronger"? The sole purpose of everything plaguing the human race is for the simple task of testing and strengthening us. Starvation? Murder? Rape? This affects everyone who catches wind of it, and the test is, what are you going to do about it? To me... faith is nothing more than finding out for yourself if there is a God. It says in the Bible that "He who seeks Me, shall find Me." what this means is, no one can prove to you that God exists besides you. Don't listen to any theist or atheist, only yourself. The faith isn't in some improvable concept. The faith is in yourself, do you believe you are intelligent and independent enough to figure this out? Since you are using your own logic to prove your own logic, this is where the circular logic exists, And the only place it should ever exist as humans because we cannot get rid of it there, so we should not bring it to other aspects of our life. This is why i absolutely refuse to attend any sort of religious grouping. Anything that another person tells me about religion is meaningless. Perhaps I've just constructed my own Ambiguous Theism just for the sole intent of keeping me happy, if this is the case, i still do not care. I am a firm believer in Science and i never push my views on anyone. Or perhaps i'm just plain insane... I do love pure math...

>>	Anonymous Wed Dec 8 22:13:48 2010 No.2175364 File: 77 KB, 400x500, to-aru-majutsu-no-index-ii.png.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] This thread....

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/sci/ - Science & Math