sup /sci/ Any reason that the Venus Project couldn't work? Also, general sci-fi wallpaper thread

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Anonymous Sun Dec 5 20:57:59 2010 No.2159762 [Reply] [Original]

sup /sci/

Any reason that the Venus Project couldn't work?
Also, general sci-fi wallpaper thread

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:01:59 2010 No.2159778 in b4 half-assed replies like "because humans are assholes"

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:03:59 2010 No.2159791 >>2159778 but humans are assholes and sorry op, i dont know anything about this venus project so i cant contribute to your thread.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:12:59 2010 No.2159835 File: 1.90 MB, 1920x1080, The_Venus_Project_by_EdenNicolson.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2159791 Go check it out. Some cool ideas

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:17:59 2010 No.2159857 Well, the Venus Project includes a lot of vague BS which isn't really refutable. Is there some specific part of it that you'd like to discuss?

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:17:59 2010 No.2159861 Zeitgeist is TVP: Zeitgeist I http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kHhc67GopM&feature=related Zeitgeist II: Addendum http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912#

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:22:59 2010 No.2159880 "The rabbit 'ad two of 'em...didn't do 'im any good."

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:29:59 2010 No.2159912 >>2159861 analogies are not allowed on this board. please rephrase.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:32:59 2010 No.2159925 No reason at all.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:32:59 2010 No.2159931 >>2159912 The Zeitgeist Movement (TZM) is a worldwide grassroots organization that serves as the communication and activist arm of The Venus Project, founded by industrial designer and social engineer Jacque Fresco.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:33:59 2010 No.2159939 >>2159762 Because it's trumpeted by faggots too cowardly to admit they're socialists.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:34:47 2010 No.2159943 >>2159939 Anarcho-syndicalists, actually.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:35:59 2010 No.2159947 Anarcho-syndicalists, actually. And they're rather vocal about it.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:37:59 2010 No.2159954 >>2159947 Fuck you. I, for one, in no way endorse Zeitgeist faggotry.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:38:59 2010 No.2159961 >>2159954 >implying your concept of anarcho-syndicalism is the only one.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:40:59 2010 No.2159974 >>2159961 >Implying gentlemen who believe the 9/11 attacks were staged deserve any label other than "retards".

Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:41:59 2010 No.2159978

>>2159947
>>2159939

Both of those ideologies utilize a monetary system. You faggots have no idea what you're talking about.

TVP doesn't advocate production through human labour at all. It favors an autonomous approach to resource management and production.

Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:44:59 2010 No.2159988

>>2159974
The media indoctrination is strong with this one. Discredits even the remote possibility of it being staged. You are forgetting the US gov't got a blank check with 9/11. Also Who are we at war with Eurasia or Eastasia? Sound familiar? Look at the transition from Afghanistan to Iraq.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:46:59 2010 No.2159993 >>2159988 >>The media indoctrination is strong with this one. >>Implying you're not indoctrinated with conspiracy theories

Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:46:59 2010 No.2159996

>>2159974

To be fair Peter tries to ignore the first film after he realized how retarded it was.

His work now is a bit more interesting. I support TVP but I can't see it working. But if so called economic collapses actually happens then I'll be working with them.

Can't really say anything past that as I'm not really that well educated in politics and economics past the basics

Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:49:59 2010 No.2160012

>>2159993
Nope. You can't be indoctrinated by ideas that aren't forced into your mind by media and the propaganda machine. In fact the mainstream media are opposed to anyone having that point of view, so they brainwash you into believing that anyone with that perspective is a tinfoil hatter who thinks Obama is a lizardman.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:51:59 2010 No.2160020 >>2160012 although you can just be crazy

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:53:59 2010 No.2160029 >>2160020 Insight will seem that way for the brainwashed.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 21:59:59 2010 No.2160055 From Venus Project to political speeches to name-calling in less than one hour. /sci/ I am proud.

Anonymous Sun Dec 5 22:02:59 2010 No.2160076

ITT: Some basement dweller that thinks watching some shitty movie made by some other tin-foil hat wearing basement dweller makes him enlightened, despite the fact that nearly every point in the movie has been debunked.

http://conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/

Oh look, the founder of TVP is also a Raelian. Really lends to his credibility.

http://raelianews.org/news.php?item.347.6

Watch this interview with Jacques Fresco, he is a complete fucking tool.

TLDR: Jacques Fresco is a fucking idiot, and anyone following his ideas is a fucking idiot.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 22:04:59 2010 No.2160086 >>2160076 http://www.youtube.com/user/jacquefresco#p/a/u/0/RVOPkGAtt48

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 22:07:59 2010 No.2160107 From what I understand the Venus Project simply advocates building a technologically advanced society for the mutual benefit of all. In other words, a post-scarcity economy, which is far from being feasible.

Anonymous Sun Dec 5 22:09:59 2010 No.2160116

>a post-scarcity economy, which is far from being feasible.

Ding ding~

Even water is becoming more and more of an issue, we're not even close.

Going to VP forums is an adventure, most of the people involved in the project are usually liberal arts majors and know little about the real world.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 22:34:59 2010 No.2160244 >>2159861 i would say dont put the first zeitgeist because of the conspiracy thing

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 22:36:59 2010 No.2160252 >>2159939 socialism involves money and the head already said there beliefs are like socialism but with resources

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 22:38:59 2010 No.2160261 >>2159974 I like tvp but i dont believe in the 9/11 thing

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 22:43:59 2010 No.2160282 Just read a Culture novel by Iain Banks. It's about as close as you'll get.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 22:51:59 2010 No.2160317 I went in thinking there is going to be a scientific debate using graphs and statistics. instead I get this. Im losing hope in sci :(

Anonymous Sun Dec 5 23:02:59 2010 No.2160384

>>2160116

I don't think so. I may be very optimistic but I see that energy is the most central problem we have right now. e.g. Water problems can be solved with desalinization plants but they need a lot of energy. Solving the energy crisis is in a way the most important step humanity will make (hopefully within this century) and it will solve many other existing problems.
We are not there yet, but it seems the next 100 years will be quite interesting in that manner. My hopes are still high for fusion power.

>>2160076

I agree that Fresco is not the great prophet he wants to be, but his basic idea of resource based economy is not completely bullshit. If our society does not become stagnant or regressive we will reach a point where currency is just a big hindrance for us. But we are still far away from that. Right now it seems money is the only way to keep thing in order.

Btw. that whole "everyone who believes something I don't believe in is a fucking idiot" attitude that is so popular on 4chan is not as cool as everyone thinks. It's kind of pathetic and makes people look like assholes/retards.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 23:15:59 2010 No.2160465 >>2160317 You expect a scientific rebuttal of an idea that was never formulated scientifically? Please. When you present a more specific system than, "Resources instead of profit, LOL" we can discuss.

>>	Anonymous Sun Dec 5 23:24:59 2010 No.2160510 >>2160465 the idea is to make enough resources and energy so that money is useless. it uses renewable energy and recycling to get the resources needed and using technology to take out jobs. all of which we know is possible.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 00:31:59 2010 No.2160744 bump

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 01:05:59 2010 No.2160903 >>2159762 Human contrariness and fear. Fear of something they've been brought up to not understand.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 01:07:59 2010 No.2160912 Because human greed.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 01:18:59 2010 No.2160951

Resources are never going to be unlimited. Even if we develop fusion and all that shit, there's still going to be scarcity. Lots of shit =/= unlimited shit.

And you guys really need to brush up on economics if you think abolishing a medium of exchange is a good thing.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 01:20:59 2010 No.2160956 because it sounds socialist

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 01:27:59 2010 No.2160990 >>2160956 It is socialist. It's just the same as all other technocratic shit where it's like "yeah but socialism will work this time coz we'll have robots and fusion and shit huurr".

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 01:30:59 2010 No.2161002

>>2160951
>implying infinite shit is the solution to human problems.
We don't need to produce infinite things because we can neither produce infinite wants nor satisfy those infinite wants in finite time.

People's desires while considerable are not infinite. Resources are comparatively larger than the entire human race, so we have no problems there.

The solution is of course to both reduce consumption and eliminate bottlenecks of production and distribution.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 03:13:59 2010 No.2161302 >>2160956 >>2160990 Define socialism.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 03:16:59 2010 No.2161310

>>2160990

Socialism worked well enough in the Soviet Union. Don't give me that, "Boohoo people died" line, this isn't /peoplewhogiveashit/. I would be very curious to see what would be the outcome of a totalitarian, centrally planned economy established in a developed nation rather than the sick man of Europe.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 12:38:59 2010 No.2162553
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The Venus Project is a system that has never been tried before.

It has no government, no money, no armies, no monotonous labour. Capitalism, socialism, communism all have these things.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 12:45:59 2010 No.2162573 >>2162553 >It has no government Even heaven has a government.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 12:47:59 2010 No.2162575 >>2162573 Nature has no government.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 12:49:59 2010 No.2162582

>>2160012
>>I don't think you can indoctrinate people with religion
Wow, see this is where you should stop and realize what lunacy youre spouting; but you wont, because you're indoctrinated and insane.

If this is the 'venus' project I want nothing to do with it, And here i thought this was terraforming venus.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 12:50:59 2010 No.2162583 >>2159778 Humans ARE dicks. If you don't believe that, then you're wrong.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 12:51:59 2010 No.2162585 >>2162575 So wait, the venus project wants to go back to darwinistic survival of the fittest/ this is anarchy and its a stupid idea. inb4 some retard tries to rationalize this away, short of thought police this shit will not go down

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 12:52:59 2010 No.2162591 File: 20 KB, 448x336, A PARADISE FOR SOLDIERS.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2162573

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 12:55:59 2010 No.2162597

>>2161310
>>hurr
you would get a shitty militaristic totalitarian state like the soviet union where the socialist system would fail causing millions to starve and be pissed off at their government, if they didn't ever succeed in revolting and the system remained in place somehow, the lack of free speech and free inquiry would eventually lead to stagnation and a better stronger free thinking people with a boner for war and saving 'those poor commies' (even if they where socialist too) would march in and kick their asses because of their infantile technological progress.

theres a reason why liberalism spread through out the world. people want it and its a good fucking competitive idea. if it wasn't the dumb people who wanted it would get their dick jammed into the door by the nearest queen or king who didn't like it.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 13:02:59 2010 No.2162609
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The whole reason why it wont work?

The idea of the Project is to create a self sustaining community where resources are over produced in order to create a Utopian sort of society where everyone had everything they need and things like that.

Now what people fail to Understand is for this to actually work you need to start in a FREE LAND where no outside influence may effect you. These people are doing this inside of the United States which means they will still have to follow the Laws of the Country. Pay Taxes, File Permits, basically fit their UTOPIAN IDEAL under the flag of Oppression.

That isn't possible unless they have a fresh place to call their own free from influence.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 13:05:59 2010 No.2162616 It's a very naive and poorly thought system. Achieving such a system is literally impossible. Even technocracy is far more realistic than the Venus Project.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 13:06:59 2010 No.2162618 >>2162585 Oh no just saying that not everything has a government, and I agree the venus project would have to have a government.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 13:08:59 2010 No.2162627 >>2162575 Nature has laws, doesn't it?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 13:13:59 2010 No.2162636 >>2162627 That doesn't mean it has a government, unless you define government as those laws. I guess it comes down to how you define government.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 13:25:59 2010 No.2162682 >>2162553 Communism doesn't have government, money, or armies, and labor is put on a golden pedestal. You should actually try reading some Marx.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:05:59 2010 No.2162772 >>2162682 Earth is 6000 years old. You should try reading some Bible.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:12:59 2010 No.2162784 >>2162772 wat

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:17:59 2010 No.2162798 File: 37 KB, 270x303, poevernesm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >Zeitgeist >Venus Project >implying post-scarcity technology is even close to feasibility This thread is foolish.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:24:59 2010 No.2162819

It'll never work because of defeatists like those in this thread, who have never had an independent thought about politics and economics and get all their definitions and 'proof' from the same people who are currently robbing the entire Earth for their betterment.

Life is nasty on a fundamental level, and the people who always win are those who want to make everyone else's life's even nastier for profit.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:27:59 2010 No.2162828 So I visited the website for this Venus Project thing, and all I saw was nonsensical architecture and unsupported promises of Utopia. Where are the sociological/economical arguments for how this thing would work?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:30:59 2010 No.2162834 >>2162828 >and all I saw was nonsensical architecture and unsupported promises of Utopia This is every trans-human utopian thread ever on /sci/,

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:36:59 2010 No.2162848

>>2160107
>implying we're not in a post scarcity society

humans are self centered assholes. but when all you know is you who can blame them. also consumerism indulging narcissistic whims

unless there's a concrete definition for life or existence developed, humans are going to continue hoarding shit

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:37:59 2010 No.2162851 >>2162819 /more thread

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:42:59 2010 No.2162862

>>2160107
Not OP, but what exactly makes it unfeasible?
Post-scarcity anarchism seems to be the only viable system for the future and actually seems inevitable when you consider the rate of technological advancement.

To paraphrase R. Buckminster Fuller, "Unemployment isn't the problem but the solution."

He was speaking about the eventual automation of just about every job you could think of and the eventual liberation of people from mind-numbing work that could better be performed by a machine.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:46:59 2010 No.2162871

Post-scarcity will never, ever, ever, ever happen. Any system which requires it is doomed from the start. It would require wealth to expand faster than population. Just because robots go get iron for us doesn't mean we've solved scarcity. The thought is so absurd I cannot even begin to imagine what drives people to think it is possible.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 14:59:59 2010 No.2162909

>>2162871
Okay. You've made assertions but have failed to back them up with anything. Please explain why it is that wealth expansion in the way you describe it is necessary?

Post scarcity anarchism as advocated by Fresco, Fuller, Bookchin and others is really about finding the most efficient ways to manage resources, using science to replace finite resources with alternatives, and using computing power and automation to accomplish it. The statement, "Robots dig for iron" is a gross oversimplification what is being proposed. It also shows a profound lack of foresight, imagination or understanding of just what is being accomplished right now in terms of science and engineering.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 15:13:59 2010 No.2162952

>>2162909
> Please explain why it is that wealth expansion in the way you describe it is necessary?
Humans have unlimited wants and needs, but resources are finite. The only way to accomplish a lack of scarcity is to have access to more resources than anyone demands at any particular time. This is possible in restricted cases... for instance, a single man on Earth with a genie. In more realistic scenarios it is not.

Your fancy words from fancy philosophers has a good theoretical foundation that relies heavily on various mathematical theorems. It's called "economics." And the only system with mathematical support for efficient allocation of resources so far is a free market, complete with price, private property, individual preferences, etc.

> using science to replace finite resources with alternatives
Then we've lived in a post-scarcity society since the industrial revolution. Color me unimpressed.

> The statement, "Robots dig for iron" is a gross oversimplification what is being proposed.
Let me be clear: nothing is being proposed but a fantasy where scarcity vanishes. There are finitely reachable planets with finite resources in the face of unlimited wants and needs. If resources are plenty, populations will grow until they become strained. This is life.

> It also shows a profound lack of foresight, imagination
The last retreat of the futurist: we just aren't imaginative enough to see the wisdom of post-scarcity.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 17:58:59 2010 No.2163778

If anyone actually bothers to read the whole story on a Resource Based Economy (Venus Project) you'll realize that the only thing that gives our money any value is the fact that things are scarce or made scarce. I NEED to pay for food because it is a scarcity. If food was in abundance, like air is, you wouldn't ever pay for it. Hell, we didn't start paying for water until profit driven corporations started polluting it.

The idea is to use the laws of nature, determine what resources we have, use the natural abundance of renewable energy such as geothermal, automate the hell out of everything starting with food, water, and housing production (since these are the basic needs), and then move forward and get rid of every boring monotonous job so that every human is free (within the confines of natural law).

If you want some idea of where we need to be heading watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wR1nX2Rfis

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 18:05:59 2010 No.2163800 http://www.thevenusproject.com/

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 18:14:59 2010 No.2163837 won't work, as a technician i get fucking RMA's everyday. no amount of 'technology will work cause it fucking breaks down and people like me have to stay overtime to fix your shit

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 18:16:59 2010 No.2163851 ITT efficient allocation of limited resources http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZDv9pgHp8Q

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 19:43:16 2010 No.2164215 [DELETED]

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>>2162828
>>2162834
>>2162828
Here's the outline. It lays down the basic argument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ngs-tOybJc

www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Movement.pdf

You're welcome, Anon.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 19:55:36 2010 No.2164277 [DELETED]

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>>2162871
> It would require wealth to expand faster than population.
>implies population growth will always be above resource growth.
See picture. Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_change
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_decline

>>2162952
>Humans have unlimited wants and needs, but resources are finite.
>implies that people are capable of realizing infinities in finite time rather than only capable of realizing symbolic infinities in finite time. IE finite representations of infinities.
Also, ignores the fact that the quantity of resources universally available, while finite, is far greater than the combined capacity for consumption and desire of the entire human species.

We have finite time within which to realize our desires and we have in fact a finite ability to articulate those same desires.

Finally, both of these objections acknowledge absurd positions as logically valid. It is implicit in the argument "people's desires are infinite and that this is important to a real economy" that this is valid and realistic concern. Do we attempt to bend reality to the desires of delusional people? Do we act to realize the desires of sociopaths and pychopaths? Logically, should we?

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 21:05:59 2010 No.2164584 bamp

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 21:16:59 2010 No.2164621
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>>2162871
> It would require wealth to expand faster than population.
>implies population growth will always be above resource growth.
See picture. Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerating_change
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_decline

>>2162952
>Humans have unlimited wants and needs, but resources are finite.
>implies that people are capable of realizing infinities in finite time rather than only capable of realizing symbolic infinities in finite time. IE finite representations of infinities.
Also, ignores the fact that the quantity of resources universally available, while finite, is far greater than the combined capacity for consumption and desire of the entire human species.

We have finite time within which to realize our desires and we have in fact a finite ability to articulate those same desires.

Finally, both of these objections acknowledge absurd positions as logically valid. It is implicit in the argument "people's desires are infinite and important to a real economy" that this is valid and realistic concern. Do we attempt to bend reality to the desires of delusional people? Do we act to realize the desires of sociopaths and pychopaths? Logically, should we?

>>	:D !!s2uh28knASO Mon Dec 6 21:20:59 2010 No.2164633 it overestimate the effectiveness of current alternative energy sources, and assumes that resources are infinite.. both of those statements are wrong. so you can go on from there.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 21:46:59 2010 No.2164727
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>>2164633
I might admit the first if you backed it up with evidence. The second would be a strawman. The Venus Project does not assume infinite resources as that is not a scientifically tenable position to take.

Resource are finite but much greater than the needs of the entirety of human kind at current. We can show this in a number of ways. We can make a surface area distance argument regarding the available solar power. We can make a geopower argument regarding the power generated by the Earth in the atmosphere, hydrosphere, and geosphere.

See the picture? That's our solar system roughly to scale. See the size of the sun? It's a nuclear furnance. See picture to follow.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 21:51:59 2010 No.2164747
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Even without FTL travel, we have enough raw resources and potential power generation to last us billions of years at reasonable consumption rates.

If the lower bound of consumption, human need, is promoted culturally, we can easily meet the needs of every man, woman, and child on the Earth given current technology and resource availability.

The US alone produces enough food to meet the 2000 Calories a day requirement of the world. We allow 40% of all food we produce to go to rot.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0007940

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 21:53:59 2010 No.2164753 >>2164215 >> an hour and 30 minutes cliff notes or fuck off, I'm not sitting through your bullshit and wasting an hour of my life without being sold on it not being a waste of my time.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 21:59:59 2010 No.2164771 >>2164753 It's your loss, faggot. Nobody gives a fuck if you're an ADD faggot who can't take the time to watch a short movie.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 22:00:59 2010 No.2164774
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>>2164727
The shear amount of power we can generate due to solar radiation alone suffices to supply the world.

http://www.causecast.org/content/new-solar-balloon-creates-400-times-more-energy-average-solar-cell-
0

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101202181128.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/11/091111122320.htm
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/11/101110101319.htm

http://www.engadget.com/2008/02/07/japans-space-agency-planning-space-based-solar-power-arrays/

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 22:03:59 2010 No.2164787 >>2164771 >>short. HURR My loss, right, I'm sure scientologists and christfags think the same thing, Here let me spend 10 minutes of your time telling you why thats bullshit http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0E0yzMgqOUg

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 22:04:59 2010 No.2164788 >>2164787 by bad, its only 1 minute:30 seconds,

>>	TZM Akillimous Mon Dec 6 22:05:59 2010 No.2164794 Watch this short 1 hour presentation of zeitgeist: http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261 Debunk if you can.

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 22:07:19 2010 No.2164807 >>2164753 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9tGywMwjoA Best cliff notes I could find you. Take your pick of the videos on the channel. http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel

>>	TZM Akillimous Mon Dec 6 22:18:59 2010 No.2164865 >>2159762 Watch awakening by Douglas Malette (aerospace engineer), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAjFBsp__aE&feature=related

:D !!s2uh28knASO Mon Dec 6 22:20:59 2010 No.2164872

>>2164774
>>2164727
>solar panel 5 USD per watt
>coal/gas .90 USD per watt

Also, without taking into account how much it cost to make a solar panel and maintain it, and without taking into account that Solar panel electricity is DC.

Yeah sure you would have a "infinite flow" of energy.. but at least with current technology. it is impossible to sustain our economy nor the whole infrastructure our society depend on. by just using solar panels.

theres huge techincal problems that we have to overcome first.

We probably manage to sustain ourselves.. but we definitely are not going to further develop like we did with oil during the early 90s.. so expect a stagnation due to resource limitations.

>>	TZM Akillimous Mon Dec 6 22:28:59 2010 No.2164903 >>2159762 geothermal is the answer to all energy needs

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 22:31:59 2010 No.2164916

>>2164774
about those solar balloons:
How do they run the electricity to the ground?
Cables? seems like a flight hazard for planes and birds. Also, depending on the number, seems like cables could get tangled and cause a problem.

Please, Please tell me they shoot it down in lightning bolts: if they use batteries i'll rage

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 22:33:59 2010 No.2164925

i suggest to ignore the zeitgheist "movement" : there are already many different scientifically sound alternative economic systems and projects of collective communities out there so there is no need to support the project of conspiracy theorists who are trying to find a way to extend their 15 minutes of fame by indexing the work of some inspiring but "zero irl traction" old school futurologist.

>>	Near !!yXNpQo2AzeI Mon Dec 6 22:35:59 2010 No.2164930 File: 104 KB, 716x800, near head set.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] I support The Venus Project, and I actually understand it. Ask me anything.

>>	Near !!yXNpQo2AzeI Mon Dec 6 22:37:59 2010 No.2164935 File: 4 KB, 120x119, L-2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2159939 >Group of people advocating the abolition of the global monetary system >afraid of being called Socialists >afraid Really faggot?

Near !!yXNpQo2AzeI Mon Dec 6 22:40:59 2010 No.2164950

>>2159996

>I support TVP but I can't see it working.

Thank you! This is all that members of TVP are asking people to realize.

Personally, I give the human race a 4% chance of sustaining itself for another millennia, however that's no reason to give up and not support TVP.

Jacque Fresco says the same thing.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 23:10:59 2010 No.2165115
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>>2164872
Your concerns have been addressed already. The below plan calls for 12.5% efficiency. We've achieved 25% for mass manufacturable solar panels.

http://www.dailytech.com/Solar+Power+Reaches+a+Magical+Milestone++25+Efficiency/article13276.htm

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a-path-to-sustainable-energy-by-2030

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=samso-attempts-100-percent-renewable-power

http://solveclimatenews.com/news/20091026/100-renewables-2030-less-fossil-power-case-made

>>	Anonymous Mon Dec 6 23:13:59 2010 No.2165127 >>2164215 Thanks for the reply, anon. I only finished watching the movie now. I really don't see why this wouldn't work. More experiments should be made for this kind of thing...

I'm here to remind you of something you once knew. Anonymous Mon Dec 6 23:20:16 2010 No.2165158 [DELETED]

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Here's the outline of the Venus Project argument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ngs-tOybJc

Here's the comprehensive document detailing the argument.
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Movement.pdf

Best cliff notes I could find for the Zeitgeist Movement.
Take your pick of the videos on the channel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W9tGywMwjoA

You're welcome, Anon.

Anonymous Mon Dec 6 23:53:59 2010 No.2165329

>>2160076

good stuff at conspiracyscience.com , thanks.

the zeitgeist movement have the heart at the right place but they shoot themselves in the foot by using Peter Joseph's films as a foundation: with a foundation made of lies/ignorance/deceptions/unfactual shit like that it is not possible to be taken seriously and achieve anything meaningful.
waste of time, waste of life.

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 00:38:59 2010 No.2165561
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>>2165329
The Zeitgeist Movie was prior to Peter's involvement in or awareness of the Venus project. It has been redacted.

Zeitgeist Addendum supersedes The Zeitgeist Movie. The Orientation guide supersedes Addendum and "Zeitgeist: Moving Forward" will introduce the ideas of the Venus Project to the world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gM7EWaxocIc&feature=related

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 00:38:59 2010 No.2165564
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Here's the outline of the Venus Project argument.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WnK5mBCFTMg

Here's the comprehensive document detailing the argument.
www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/The%20Zeitgeist%20Movement.pdf

Best cliff notes I could find for the Zeitgeist Movement.
Take your pick of the videos on the channel.
http://www.youtube.com/user/TZMOfficialChannel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5YXAvdYhhWc

You're welcome, Anon.

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 00:56:59 2010 No.2165618

>>2164807
>>best cliff notes version
I watched the whole 5 minute clip, and all it is is bitching about how the world is imperfect and shit happens, there is no actual proposed method of change in this video, not a hint of it, just that its time for change. they repeat again and again its not change for changes sake, but continualy neglect to specify what they are changing and why,

So there you have it, the 'best video' you could find that describes the movement in 5 minutes, is 'some kind of change is needed guys' well thanks, what a revelation. are you really that stupid?
I want those 5 minutes back.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:03:59 2010 No.2165644 ITT: People that don't realize available resources are the ones that aren't owned yet.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:08:59 2010 No.2165667 >>2165618 I found better. see >>2165564 for an updated orientation guide and a ten minute summary by Peter Joseph and Jacque Fresco.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:12:59 2010 No.2165681 >>2160116 Liberal arts majors who aren't economists, I would assume.

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:32:59 2010 No.2165754
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>>2165564
>>no police
>>no government
>>just people sharing resources
yeah its communism.

also while you where searching your head off for your 'cleaned up' and public friendly 'summery' i found this
http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/
9/11 deniers?
psuedo history?
yeah whatever, look dumbasses, the stuff in that video you linked may have been well enough, but it will never really work. it's communism, in its most literal form. and you certainly don't have to try and found a movement based on conspiracy theory bullshit and psudeo-history to try and make the world a better place.

anyway I'm calling it, Inb4 zeitgeist is the new scientology. I don't care how much honey you drop all over your ideology, It's never an excuse to lie to people to get them to swallow it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:39:59 2010 No.2165774 >>2165754 >it's communism your point?

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:40:59 2010 No.2165779

HEY EVERYBODY, WOULDN'T IT BE COOL IF MACHINES JUST MAGICALLY MADE EVERYTHING AND THEN NOBODY HAD TO WORK ANYMORE AND YOU JUST BASICALLY HAD A GIANT ORGY ALL THE GOD DAMNED TIME???

Sane guy: Wait, who will build these magical machines that solve all of our problems?

Venus Project Spokesman: WHY ARE YOU SO HOSTILE?? ARE YOU PART OF "THE SYSTEM" AND AGREE WITH "THE MAN?" WHO CARES ANYWAY, BECAUSE THE ECONOMY IS TOTALLY GONNA CRASH ANYWAY AND THEN EVERYONE WILL HAVE TO LOVE OUR MAGICAL MACHINES THAT WE HAVE ZERO WAY OF ACTUALLY PRODUCING LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:46:59 2010 No.2165802

>>2165774
communism doesn't work for the same reason anarchy doesn't work,
Humans are opportunistic bastards and they will fuck you over without checks and balances. Even the enormously hopeful Australia project still recognized that you could not do away with institutions like police and court systems and armies.

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:49:59 2010 No.2165809

>>2165754
I just saw this thread, well your post. Thought I should add in.

>>no police
>>no government
anarchism

>>just people sharing resources
>yeah its communism.
this is the only piece that really means communism

It's anarchist communism. There are other types of communism and other types of anarchism.

Also, the system is feasible, though it relies on economic theory more so than our current system. That is the case however with any system that has anarchism as the government component, the economic component has to provide all the structure.

There's some authors out there that talk about it in detail, though you might want to pick up a book on neuroeconomics first if you want to be able to understand it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:50:59 2010 No.2165812 File: 752 KB, 300x225, Lol no.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2165802 You obviously have no clue what you're talking about.

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 01:52:59 2010 No.2165817

This is /new/ shit. The more time we waste on shitty pet theories like this, the less time we invest into actual science, the stuff that will make a world better than anything people today can imagine.

The only people propagating this are assholes who want to say "HURR I WAS RIGHT" when it's all said and done.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 02:07:59 2010 No.2165851 >>2165817 To be fair if something like this came to be we could do nothing but science, since funding wouldn't be an issue

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 02:12:59 2010 No.2165864
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>>2165817
wait wait wait....there are people doing actual science...in posts on this board? For the betterment of mankind?? I sure as hell wouldn't. I'd do it in a lab, or on my own computer, and if I wanted to discuss it with ADULTS I'd go to a hell of a better forum than this one.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 03:11:59 2010 No.2166014 Because they've already been co-opted. Making friends with politicians, former world bank president, etc.. for funding and to spread the message. I was interested in it in the past but realized the flaws and with their new friends, just hell no.

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 03:27:59 2010 No.2166054
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>>2165754
http://www.conspiracyscience.com/articles/zeitgeist/
Author: Edward L Winston
>Added: November 29th, 2007

>Peter Joseph (creator of Zeitgeist) believes that I'm mentally ill because I disagree with him. You can read all about it on his forums (linked from this forum post), with a blog-based rebuttal here. You better not disagree with him, or you'll be labeled insane next. Perhaps I'm crazy for pointing out his forum post?

Hmmm... yes because that sounds reasonable and is three years out of date. Seems like sound evidence for your case. /sarcasm.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 03:32:59 2010 No.2166061 File: 61 KB, 462x251, 1289601384908.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2166054 Definitely not biased testimony of some butthurt conspiratorialist who got banned for his bullshit on the Zeitgeist forums.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 03:33:59 2010 No.2166062 >>2166054 i find that this peter joseph character reminds me a lot of both jordan maxwell and michael tsarion. hmmm, i wonder what they all have in common...

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 06:11:59 2010 No.2166389 >>2164747 >>2164747 >>2164747 what does "Rest Energy of Flea" mean on this picture and why it is so high and off the scale?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 07:19:59 2010 No.2166496

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 07:24:59 2010 No.2166502 >>2166389 the rest mass of a flea converted to energy

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 07:37:59 2010 No.2166513
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Why do all those pictures need to look so fancy when its actually a political movement? Surely he's just distracting you easily-distracted people with his paintings and sketches of technology that will not exist for a few decades.

The main reason this plan doesn't work: the guy thinks people are equal and deserve equal treatment. He wants to cut out the monetary system, haha, what a dick.

"Peace, man"

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 15:47:59 2010 No.2167976 File: 53 KB, 750x563, 1289419844876.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2166513 Fucking hippies. I ain't even mad but GTFO.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 16:18:59 2010 No.2168146 >>2167976 athiesm is a religion

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 16:19:59 2010 No.2168153 File: 16 KB, 391x311, 1291652628759.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2168146 No.

TZM Akillimous Tue Dec 7 16:26:59 2010 No.2168186

>>2159762
DEBUNK THIS:
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=3932487043163636261

Watch awakening by Douglas Malette (aerospace engineer), http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAjFBsp__aE&feature=related

We have the technology to make it all a reality, seriously if you don't know that already you shouldn't be in /sci/, go in /b/tard

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 16:37:35 2010 No.2168243 [DELETED]

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>>2168146
Wherein my post did I say anything about religion?

Fuck you and your kool-aid, I ain't drinking it, and it's not because it's grape-flavored.
I'm neither an atheist nor a theist, so you can take your fail and GTFO with hippies.

The Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project have nothing to do with hippie conceptions of what a Utopian society would be nor with religion one way or another.

The Venus Project is the application of the scientific method to human social concerns.

If anything it could be categorized as a secular Humanist movement: http://www.iheu.org/amsterdamdeclaration

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 17:15:59 2010 No.2168383
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>>2168146
Wherein my post did I say anything about religion?

Fuck you and your kool-aid, I ain't drinking it, and it's not because it's grape-flavored.
I'm neither an atheist nor a theist, so you can take your fail and GTFO with hippies.

The Zeitgeist Movement and the Venus Project has nothing to do with hippie conceptions of what a Utopian society would be. They have nothing to do with religion one way or another.

The Venus Project is the application of the scientific method to human social concerns.

If anything it could be categorized as a secular Humanist movement: http://www.iheu.org/amsterdamdeclaration

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 17:54:59 2010 No.2168598
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>>2166062
>>2166061
>>2166054
Sure is a bunch of retards in here
Seriously do you have anything to say about the criticism? or are you just gonna keep pretending you have to take this guys word and he didn't provide sources.

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 18:31:59 2010 No.2168769

18 to 30 year old man "into" the "zeitgeist movement" = prepare yourself for a life of dissatisfaction and resentment that ultimately even your feeling of righteousness won't be able to quench. wasted time, wasted life. focus on real things, do real things.
the zeitgeist video that is being presented to debunk is just a guileless ramassis of other people's ideas, some of em all right and not new at all to anyone with a bit of an education. like yeah we know the media reinforces and help to maintain the industrial capitalism status-quo blablabla we have known about chomsky's work since college. etc.

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 19:24:59 2010 No.2169042
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>>2168598
Did you catch the fact that the criticism is three years old?
That it predates the Zeitgeist Movement and Peter Joseph's involvement in the Venus Project?
That it does not constitute a criticism of the Venus Project or Jacque Fresco?
That it is in fact completely ignorant of the Venus Project?
It is a criticism of "The Zeitgeist Movie" Which is at this point completely irrelevant and completely debunked. The content of "The Zeitgeist Movie" does not and did not represent the views or opinions of the Zeitgeist Movement and are only incidentally related by the fact that Peter Joseph produced the movie prior to knowing about the Venus Project.

Attempt to use that as evidence against the Venus Project is disingenuous. It resembles in many ways McCarthyism. You do not oppose absurdity, you side step it. You ignore it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 19:29:59 2010 No.2169070 what safeguard the venus project have to prevent things to turn into fascist centralized power ?

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 20:15:59 2010 No.2169287 File: 22 KB, 600x421, sonny.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>2169070 Decentralization and mitigation of incentives to form such. In other words, checks and balances designed into the social system.

>>	Anonymous Tue Dec 7 20:26:59 2010 No.2169361 it's one thing to write the word "decentralization" and another to write down the blueprint for of such a sustainable city. it's not gonna happen by itself, eh. maybe you should point us to such a solid quality material instead of some intro material.

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 20:52:59 2010 No.2169474
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>>2169361
http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/aims-proposals

1. Realizing the declaration of the world's resources as being the common heritage of all people.
2. Transcending the artificial boundaries that currently and arbitrarily separate people.
3. Replacing money-based nationalistic economies with a resource-based world economy.
4. Assisting in stabilizing the world’s population through education and voluntary birth control.
5. Reclaiming and restoring the natural environment to the best of our ability.
6. Redesigning cities, transportation systems, agricultural industries, and industrial plants so that they are energy efficient, clean, and able to conveniently serve the needs of all people.
7. Gradually outgrowing corporate entities and governments, (local, national, or supra-national) as means of social management.
8. Sharing and applying new technologies for the benefit of all nations.
9. Developing and using clean renewable energy sources.
10. Manufacturing the highest quality products for the benefit of the world’s people.
11. Requiring environmental impact studies prior to construction of any mega projects.
12. Encouraging the widest range of creativity and incentive toward constructive endeavour.
13. Outgrowing nationalism, bigotry, and prejudice through education.
14. Eliminating elitism, technical or otherwise.
15. Arriving at methodologies by careful research rather than random opinions.
16. Enhancing communication in schools so that our language is relevant to the physical conditions of the world.
17. Providing not only the necessities of life, but also offering challenges that stimulate the mind while emphasizing individuality rather than uniformity.
18. Finally, preparing people intellectually and emotionally for the changes and challenges that lie ahead.

http://www.thevenusproject.com/the-venus-project-introduction/faq #68

Anonymous Tue Dec 7 21:00:59 2010 No.2169505
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>>2169361
The problem you pose, which I agree is a valid problem, does not seem to have a satisfactory answer. (see #68 in the faqs)

Given the system and it's goals. We can reduce it to a two prong problem, how would one go about taking over the system, and how would we ensure that any such attempt fails?

Given my background, I answer reflexively "decentralization" because I understand it to be a well established tactic providing the system with resistance to uniform take over by any given faction. The arguments that convinced me of this come from the Federalist Papers.

http://thomas.loc.gov/home/histdox/fedpapers.html

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