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/sci/ - Science & Math

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2147153 No.2147153 [Reply] [Original]

In all honesty, how convincing do you find the argument that bees have developped the hexagonal structure of their hives, which is the most efficient structure, purely through natural selection?

I'm referring to the evolutionist theory of course.

>> No.2147167

Compared with the idea that a magic bee Prometheus gave them the idea of hexagons?

Very.

>> No.2147166
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2147166

>> No.2147168

>how convincing do you find

>> No.2147174

Entirely convincing.

Try boiling a pot of water some time. What shape does the columns of bubbles form?

>> No.2147177

Why would bees bother to build structures which would make them burn more energy, when a more ideal structure would allow them to burn less?

>> No.2147179
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2147179

read the chapter in the selfish gene about bees

>> No.2147183
File: 9 KB, 210x175, 1282367805969.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
2147183

>mfw they're just circles mashed together in a rather-efficient design
are you also gonna argue that circles being formed in nature are too good to be true? (evolutionarily speaking)

>> No.2147185

If a hexagon allows heat not to be lost by allowing the larvae closer together it makes it perfectly feasible.

>> No.2147186

>>2147167
Pro-Bee-Theist?

>> No.2147198

If ID were true, Bee Hives would follow a Penrose Tiling. Discuss.

>> No.2147200

The first hives of their ancestors were probably nothing more clumps of stuck together.

Over time gradual refinement would occur in small increments for however many years it took for the hive to become this structure through natural selection.

Bees that were able to maximize the efficiency of their hive were most likely able to out compete other bees since they could produce more offspring by maximizing the hives potential and minimizing energy required.

I don't know anything about bees, but that's just my quick guess about how it would have happened through natural selection

>> No.2147203

>>2147153

they build them in round shape and the rest is just physics, bees did not choose the hexagonal structure you fuckhead

>> No.2147205

>>2147198
Nope, not the same size tiles. Or shape for that matter.

>> No.2147211

>>2147205

In what way is that relevant?

>> No.2147227

>>2147200
That's what I had in mind concerning the NS explanation of the matter, but there remains the question of how credible it is that such devolopment, from mere random blotches to the current form, could take place through NS in anything short than billions of years, considering the very low effect that moving from a blotch to something closer to a hexagon would have on the supremacy of a hive.

Such supremacy would be very credible if sudden shift occurred, in a more or less large population, from a random shape to a hexagon. But the fact is that the gradual changes would be microscopic.

As anon suggested, I will take a look at Selfish Gene inshallah, to see which explanation it gives to the subject.

>> No.2147235

Well, durr, there probabbly was some autistic bee that thought that hexagons would be the best shape possible.

>> No.2147245

>>2147227
>by mere random blotches


it's not random. The most efficient behavior prevails.

>> No.2147269

>>2147245
Yes, but the only credible way for a hive to a population due to the efficiency of the shape of their honeycomb cells is if they spontaneously and simultaneously shifted to something consideraby more efficient than what other populations have, which is not the case since any natural change in the shape of the cells would be much less significant than to lead to any kind of genetic prevalence. I'm actually just repeating what I've said earlier.

>> No.2147298

>>2147153

>implying natural selection is the only mechanism in evolution

>> No.2147306
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2147306

>OP doesn't understand how natural selection works!

>> No.2147313

>>2147306
Could you please explain how it works, and how that relate to our subject?

>> No.2147351

>>2147269

No

It would not spontaneously happen. Assuming the bees actively chose to do this, even small and gradual changes in hive efficiency would give the bees an advantage over other colonies.

That advantage is just reinforced over time.

>> No.2147354

>>2147313
you cant explain stuff like that inside a 4chan thread
go read
HARD MODE darwins 'on the origin of species'
EASY MODE dawkins 'selfish gene'

>> No.2147376

>>2147351
I might be wrong, but I think you're saying that a certain population of bees has chosen to build cells closer to a hexagonal shape in order to prevail over other populations. You're assuming that bees have an intellect analogous to that of man, which is quite absurd, with all due respect .

>> No.2147387

>>2147354
I'm willing to do that sometime in the future inshallah. Meanwhile, could you grace me by pointing out to which misanderstanding I have displayed in the original post?

>> No.2147429

>>2147376

They didn't just make hexagon shaped combs from day one and they didn't choose for it to be that way. It was an extremely gradual refinement process towards the most efficient design.
Intelligence has nothing to do with it

Certain ants grow farms of fungi to help them digest cellulose.
Beavers build dams that are maximized for heat flow.

By your logic only humans can build efficient dwellings and maximize their energy input while minimizing their energy output

>> No.2147438
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2147438

>>2147387
the questions are posed poorly
to get a quality answer, you must pose the right questions and go about finding the answer in the right way.
dawkins uses a very simple approach in his book.
if you want a full understanding, start at ch 1 and stop when you read the chapter about bees

you could actually skip darwin. his approach is spectacular in proving evolution (dawkins does that too in "the greatest show on earth") but is not focused on the true implications.
dawkins is all about neo-darwinian synthesis
which is the new, improved, souped up darwin that basically states
"STABILITY = EXISTENCE"
and shows how that works from cosmology to geology to life to society to memetics

p.s. MEME is a word he invented.. its in the selfish gene. well after the chapter about bees, if i remember correctly