/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.1981889]

Three unproven assumptions of society - Democracy is good. Freedom is good. Equality is good.

Exactly what kind of logical reasonings are behind these statements?

[Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. No.1981897]

Freedom and equality ARE good.
Not so hot on democracy though.

[Anonymous No.1981903]

is this /sci/ related?

[Anonymous No.1981905]

because you want them to think that
they are equal (bullshit riches can buy anything)
can choose what they want to do (you have to work or you die)
choose who they want (which poly is different?)

[Anonymous No.1981909]

>>1981897

This is what I'm saying. Something isn't just good. It's good because of X. As beings in a logical universe we must work with logic.

>>1981903

Because there isn't a /philosophy/ board.

[Anonymous No.1981910]

>>1981897
>democracy
voting is pretty cool, i think you mean capitalism

[Anonymous No.1981914]

They're technically unproven, but there's a lot of evidence to show that they are the best systems. Every society using democracy, freedom, and equality prospers. Those who do not fail.

The Soviet Union had a massive empire without democracy or freedom, and they failed miserably. Most countries in Africa are ruled by dictators who hoard their countries' meager wealth for themselves, leaving the populace too poor to develop an economy or even fend for themselves.

[Anonymous No.1981918]

Freedom being good and democracy being preferred are simply what happens when people in society realize that they are in control, not the elite 0.01% who govern everything.

Kings were overthrown and monarchies abolished. Totalitarian states get overthrown vertically from its citizens and horizontally from FREEDOM SPREADING 'MURRICA. Essentially, now that people know where the power comes from at the start, the game is up and they have to throw citizens a bone.

They still are in control mostly, but placate the masses by maintaining the illusion of control.

[Sarcastro No.1981926]

depends on the difference of these being good, and these appealing to society, in theory they are all good but theory and practice are quite difference. besides I would say you cannot really label them as good and bad, they all have good points and bad points, ethics, society, morals etc, they are never black and white

[Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. No.1981929]

>>1981910
Technocracy/Democracy mix is the best.
>>1981909
If there was no freedom, you'd be completely constrained to what you can do dictated to you by another person/people's.
If there was no equality, people can treat people however the fuck they want, usually with no fear of repercussion, short of civil war.

[Anonymous No.1981946]

>>1981914

>Every society using democracy, freedom, and equality prospers.
Correlation perhaps, but not necessarily causality.

>>1981926

>you cannot really label them as good and bad

Why then have we appeared to?

>>1981929

>If there was no freedom, you'd be completely constrained to what you can do dictated to you by another person/people's.

That's taking it to the extreme though. The emerging value appears to be that freedom is inherently good, which I would debate.

>If there was no equality, people can treat people however the fuck they want, usually with no fear of repercussion, short of civil war.

I see no relationship between equality and opression. Isn't it possible to have a just and fair ruler?

[Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. No.1981960]

>>1981946
>I see no relationship between equality and opression. Isn't it possible to have a just and fair ruler?
A man can dream...

[Anonymous No.1981962]

>>1981946

Freedom being inherently good can easily be debated. Take someone who has been a slave all their life, and present them freedom from any master.
Odds are, they wouldn't know what the fuck to do with themselves and beg to be a slave again.

[Anonymous No.1981965]

Democracy sucks.
Equality is bullshit.
Freedom is god-tier. It's self-evident, fool.

[Anonymous No.1981966]

>>1981962
lol -- how many slaves you know?

[Anonymous No.1981968]

>>1981960

Hmm, I disagree. It seems to be in human nature to be predisposed towards corruption and power.
Sure, it has its basis in evolutionary psychology (i.e. more money, more power equals better chance of survival), but it seems to have permeated every part of society.

[Anonymous No.1981969]

>>1981962

Or as an extreme example - consider two people, John and Harry. Harry would never attack John. In a free world, John has the choice to kill Harry, a decision that is always morally unjustifiable.

I'd argue that there is no justification for John to have the choice to kill Harry, even if he chooses not to.

[Inurdaes !V1sPhobos. No.1981972]

>>1981962
>Odds are, they wouldn't know what the fuck to do with themselves and beg to be a slave again.

[Anonymous No.1981977]

>>1981966

How many slaves do you know that would prove my theory false? Note that I said that it would only be the case if the slave had been a slave from birth and had not had any idea of a life outside of slavery, before being presented liberation.

[Sarcastro No.1981981]

>>1981946
sorry I should have said it is hard to label them as good or bad, my focus was more my statement that they have good and bad points, they aren't as simple as just good or bad

[Anonymous No.1981982]

>>1981972

What's so hard to believe about this statement? That a lifetime of conditioning won't magically dissapear when presented with a different set of values?

This did actually occur, always, when there were widespread releases of slaves. In Ancient Greece and Rome it was basically uniform that freed slaves stayed on as servants.

[Anonymous No.1981999]

>>1981909

Had they ever tried that? Having a /phi/ board, I mean?
I think I remember someone saying that it worked for a while, but then it just got swamped with atheist vs. christian threads.
Actually, I still see that happening today, so there's no need to make one, haha.

[Anonymous No.1982068]

>>1981889


you don't need the word "good" OP

they are just things that individuals desire, so we end up getting them

[Anonymous No.1982090]

From a utilitarian point of view, the fact that people chose democracy over other forms of government means that democracy does the most to increase "aggregate happiness".

In any case, a "model-independent" definition of "good" is impossible state without resorting to tautology, so it is impossible to "logically deduce". Hence we have to resort to some approximation of good. The utilitarian definition of good differs from the neoliberal definition of good, and hence their choice for "ideal government". The point being, that the definition of good heavily depends on your philosophy. Hence it is impossible to apply absolute logic in determining the best form of society.

[Anonymous No.1982126]

Democracy = Mob rule
Freedome = More Importent than Equality

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j7p8GB_W78

[Anonymous No.1982432]

OP you have assumed that your three statements are assumed by society, but on closer examination you will find that is not the case.

[The Good Fart Joke !wYoePP/yWA No.1982520]

>>1982126
You need equality in order to provide freedom for all.

[Anonymous No.1982550]

>Democracy
>>1982126
Mod rule - wisdom of the crowds - sounds good and nice, but I'd very much like if it was corrected to the rule of the mob composed by the people who at least finished highschool.

The very problem of democracy is that it rewards charisma, not intelligence.

>Equality
Equality has an inherent problem, if all are equal, are animals equal? Are minerals equal? What right to we have to explore them?
The inherent problem of equality is that it hempers the winners, and in evolutionary terms, our species didn't get this far by carrying the weak on the backs of the strong.
Lastly, equality has a childish idea of "everyone wins lol". For someone to win, someone must lose, it's basic logic.

I think that the best we can do is give everyone the same CHANCE. Free high quality education, healthcare, etc. We give you the best rod in the block, if you can't fish, don't blame the rod.

>Freedom
Now this is a bit tricky. In the broadest terms possible, it means that you must give me something of equal value than that which I gave you.

It means that if I waive my possibility of killing you, you must waive yours of killing me. This is pretty much the basis of law, we all agree to waive certain freedoms in order to have a functional society.

In terms of trade, it means nothing less than fair trade. If you "pay" me (not only in montary terms) less than you should, you are doing a form of exploration. The problem is that many (actually most) things have a subjective value, and the measurement of it is complicated.

In order that all people are given equal chance of development, freedom seems to be a pre-requisite.

[Anonymous No.1982586]

>>1982550
Get the fuck out, furfag.

Humans are all equal because they're the same species.

[Anonymous No.1982594]

>>1981897

Hey dick wipe he asked WHY they were good and your reasoning not, "hurr durr dey iz good!".

[Anonymous No.1982611]

>>1982586
worms and humans are equal because they're the same kingdom.

[Buzzkillington No.1982614]

>>1982594
Something that good simply does not need explanation.

[Hasit No.1982621]

>>1982586

Humans are indeed the same specie but not equal since equality is seen trough the eye of the beholder. You may be equal in fizionomy but not in intelligence.

[Hasit No.1982626]

>>1982611

Well worms are D in the trophic chain so when you die you'll have to deal with them so it's Food>human>worms (Hope it's clear and not just something amusing :))

[Anonymous No.1982627]

ITT: OP has never heard of axioms. Even math has them.

[Anonymous No.1982630]

>>1981918
Yes, we removed their "political processes" horizontally and forcefully.

[Anonymous No.1982645]

>>1982550
The miracle of the aggregate tends to find an informed consensus among an ignorant population (and the same decision they would have made if they were all smart and fully informed), even if they're just using heuristics and incomplete information. Assuming you are sticking with the responsible parties voter model, it means they will decide on the distinct choice that best fits their views every time.

Also, there has never been a famine in a democracy. Enjoy your failed fair and benevolent ruler model. Slaves won't revolt. Dumbasses.

[Buzzkillington No.1982668]

>>1982621
All humans are equal and deserve the same opportunities and rights as other humans. You do show signs of a superiority complex that you should check into any day now.

[Anonymous No.1982694]

Illuminati is bad mmmmkay

[Anonymous No.1982705]

>>1981960
or that man could buy a computer
>>1982627
Theres still a reason for why you chose a specific Axiom
As pointed out here already that reason usually is: because it just works

Freedom is kinda self evident though. without freedom you wouldnt be able to complain about too much freedom or lack thereof
democracy is just the political system that seems to lead to the best amount of freedom
and equality is also needed for that

[Anonymous No.1982709]

>>1982621
pretty senseless statement.
were not equal because I have more hair!
were not equal because I have a lower IQ!
were not equal becasue if we do the same things in the same situation I get a different outcome!


wich of these 3 would you say makes the most sense?

[Anonymous No.1982716]

>>1982709
We are equal because we are both at the mercy of the world in which we live from our own respective positions. Even though in a side-by-side comparison we are not identical, we are still equals in the sense of our intrinsic value beyond the immediate and readily visible surface of our being.

[Anonymous No.1982760]

Theyre not logical reasons, they based on emotions, on what people want. People want freedom and equality, Democracy is just a form of freedom and equality (depends on the democracy, but ours is sposta give us equal say, sorta)

Would you like to be a slave with no means to change your situation? If not, then you fully understand the logic behind these ideals. Its extremely trivial.