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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1885445 No.1885445 [Reply] [Original]

Hey /sci/ if we are all destined for something, then they're truly no coincidences in life, if that is the case then how can free will exist

>> No.1885451

Hey /sci/ if nothing is destined for anything, and everything is truly a coincidence then how can free will exist?

>> No.1885467

Free will does not exist.

However neither does perfect determinism.

>> No.1885482
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1885482

>mfw OP doesnt know about emergence

>> No.1885485

Our mind is not made of atoms or particles.

>> No.1885492

>>1885445
Free will can exist, because you don't know your destiny. Your destiny is what you will choose by your free will.

>> No.1885498

If you're willing to do some light reading, I may have a link that can answer that question for you:

http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Free_will

>> No.1885499

Ya'll motherfuckers need to read some of Gerard 't Hooft's latest papers on this subject.

>> No.1885514

>>1885485

lmao everything is made of atoms and particles dumb fuck.

>> No.1885516

>>1885499

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerard_%27t_Hooft
(no mention of his work on this subject here)

Why don't you follow up with something helpful?

>> No.1885517

>>1885485

Our mind is made of nothing. It's the name when give to the result of matter in our brain moving around.

>> No.1885532
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1885532

>>1885517
Your mind is electromagnetics at work baka.

>> No.1885550

behaving in probabilistic ways is not the same as being probabilistic.

>> No.1885551

>>1885532
yeah maybe its electromagnetism, but what then manipulates those signals to do as you will, or to think about something you want to think about?

>> No.1885574

ITT: high school diploma holders

>> No.1885582
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1885582

>mfw uncertainty principle

>> No.1885578
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1885578

>>1885551
Chemicals and eletricity produced by the brain which utilize the basic properties of atoms and molecules.

>> No.1885592
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1885592

>mfw people dont know what the uncertainty principle states

>> No.1885593

What it all boils down to is that free will is really only the chaotic nature of subatomic particles.

>> No.1885595

1) Are emotions free will? Do you choose to be angry, happy or horny?
2) Are physical sensations a choice? Hunger, fatigue, pain, vision, etc. If there was really free will wouldn't we be able to shut down certain inputs? (i.e. turn off our eyes without closing them, stop our nervous system causing us distress)
3) mental illnesses, depression, delirium; are these states the result of free will?

If someone drugs you, is your intoxication free will?

>> No.1885600

>>1885593
>Implying that the particles just don't bounce off of eachother.
Magnets have free will guys, praise giraffe

>> No.1885608

>>1885582
>mfw he thinks the uncertainty principle says anything about the world

PROTIP: an analogue to QM is statistical mechanics

>> No.1885611

Why can't a deterministic system exhibit free will? Its final state is predestined but is also determined by the state of the system. In other words, you choose the final state of the system, because the final state of the system depends on your choices.

>> No.1885614

>>1885595
You can stop all of those besides vision, you even see in your sleep, and technically when your eyes are closed. However, intoxication and all of the other things you stated were correct. Humans, how do they work?

>> No.1885615

Can you will?
Will you that you can will?
Can you will that you can will?
Will you can that you will can that you will?
... ?

>> No.1885638

>>1885611

in fact, saying a non-deterministic system can have free will is even dumber because if everything is determined by random chance then NOTHING determent the system so there literally can't be free will that way.

>> No.1885652
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1885652

>>1885485
then can you explain what your mind is made of; if not electrons jumping through a cell to another, storing your past, memory. personality and reasonning ?

what is your soul made of ? extradimensional energy ? gravitational waves ?

>> No.1885659

The thing about the uncertainty principle is this:

its effects are really only significantly applicable to electrons.


sure, biochemical reactions involve electrons, but you must understand a simple fact:


electronic behavior is governed by that almost immovable (in the electron frame) gigantic fucking ball of positive charge called the nucleus.


the only nucleus that shows any appreciable wave nature (in nonrelativistic settings, like chemical reactions inside the body or a flask) is the hydrogen nucleus.


there are a few examples of possible proton tunnelling in biochemical reactions....


beyond this, some molecules move around near some other molecules.

nuclei get close.

wavefunctions overlap and interact according to exchange, symmetry, and correlation, conservation of angular momentum, conservation of spin, kinetic energy etc....


sure, at this point there is an indeterminancy...

but everything is controlled by WHERE THE NUCLEI ARE!!!


and since 99% of the time the nuclei in question are:

oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, iron (heme), calcium, or phosphorous (which are all big, heavy, almost purely classical finite charge distributions that barely move with respect to the electron's movement)....


there is very little quantum indeterminancy that translates on the in-vivo (or invitro) chemical reaction frame.
it takes hours and hours in a clean room, a vac-ion pump/oil diffusion pump (eg ultra high vacuum), and 2 years of a graduate student's time to prepare a system in which you can observe true indeterminancy in a system that involves the movement and vibration of nuclei

>> No.1885721
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1885721

>>1885638
if we accept our brain like a natural electronic computer, technically speaking we would have no free will. we would be guided by our primitive needs : eat. sleep. fuck. poop. repeat until death. eventually fight for territory and no love or other possibility.

also, the global amount of of information stored in the brain would never exceed a couple of days.

thus if we resume our conscience into something proper to our brain and its complexity, in the next 30 years, we could assume a supercomputer could have a conscience.

something doesn't stick. are we sure we don't know any other information carrier than electromagnetism?

[ can weak and strong nuclear force carry something in the genre, too? ...nah, i doubt it. ]

>> No.1885738

I believe in determinism - God does not play dice. Quantum mechanics is nondeterministic but that's because it's not a complete description of how things work. Science may be unsure about certain things but that doesn't mean they are unknowable.

>> No.1885768

The will is what you use to move. Your will is what triggered the whole reaction path from brain to muscle, in order to move according to your will. I mean what is this will, who is the decision maker? People have acted against every single of our most basic instincts, even sex - the most vital to survival! I dont think thats just a brain melfunction.

>> No.1885770

>>1885721
You make an awful lot of assertions with no supporting evidence. Why can a deterministic system eat, sleep, and fuck, but not think? Why can a deterministic system remember a few days but no more than that? I'm not buying any of that. Adding randomness to a system does not magically give it free will and a good memory.

Sure, a supercomputer could have conscience, if it was programmed well enough. One way to give it one would be to write a complete simulation of a human brain. If it can exhibit certain behaviors in emulation, then it follows that it could exhibit them while running native code. An emulator can't do something the underlying hardware cannot.

>> No.1885791

>>1885652
>>1885721
There is no soul and learn to neurology kid. There are billions of synapses in the brain that make it work, its not a fucking abstract idea, people study this. Learn to use wiki etc.

>> No.1885808

>>1885791
>There is no soul
exactly what i wanted to hear

>> No.1885835

It is by will alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the juice of sapho that thoughts acquire speed, the lips acquire stains, the stains become a warning. It is by will alone I set my mind in motion.

>> No.1885839

>>1885808
Prove that there is one, oh wait, you can't. All you have are your childish theories where there is a wealth of information at hand which you refuse to look at. I can't imagine why. Oh, is it because you think you are smarter than a scientist? Get over yourself.

>> No.1885841

>>1885595
This post convinced me there is no free will.

>> No.1885864

My philosophy is: free will doesn't exist, but we should pretend that it does. If you think that you're in control of your actions, you are more likely to make better decisions, if you don't, you are more likely to make worse decisions.

>> No.1885903

>>1885864
If belief or disbelief in free will can affect your decisions, doesn't that imply that free will exists? Your mental state influencing your decisions is basically the definition of free will.

>> No.1885911

So the best thing for me to be doing right now, according to how the universe works, is for me to be on 4chan instead of doing homework? I have no say in this? The best thing for the universe is for me to be fucking around on /sci/?

>> No.1885932

because these atoms and particles are being, they're not simple units. you fucking faggot. if they were simply units, free will would not exist -- but you're such a faggot you think they are.

they are living, or they wouldn't be in 'life'.
i hope that answers ur question u little homosexual skiprat.

>> No.1885938

determinism = divine plan.

>> No.1886004

>>1885903
>Your mental state influencing your decisions is basically the definition of free will.

But the mental state is itself influenced by various factors. I make the decision to think I'm in control of my actions, but only because I thought about it and concluded that it was a good idea. I made that conclusion because of my experiences and reasoning. My reasoning is ingrained in me due to the structure and development of my brain. My experiences were influenced by factors beyond my control but also other choices of mine that were also influenced by my reasoning ability and my experiences which were influenced by factors beyond my control and other choices of mine that were also influenced by my reasoning ability and my experiences et cetera until birth.

>> No.1886026

>>1885932
Let me get this straight:
>humans are alive and have free will
>humans are made of atoms
>therefore atoms are alive and have free will

Let me try that:
Water is wet
Water is made of atoms
Therefore atoms are wet!

>> No.1886061

>>1885911
>The best thing for the universe
There is no 'best thing for the universe.'

>> No.1886114
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1886114

>>1885611
>implying the "choices" "made" were not the result of causality.

>> No.1886132

Gawd,i lost faith in /sci/
So many dumbfags.

There is no free will,even self consciousness/awareness is deterministic.
The human brain is so disgustingly deterministic as everything in macroscopic universe that i wont even bother to explain it.
What you need to understand is the micro world of physics.

Uncertainty principle is a joke,its like we're back thousands of years ago and say that Thunderbolts are god.
We know so little about quantum physics,the problem is that we assume that locality is something standard even in the microscopic world,like many things in physics the deeper you go the stranger it becomes,stranger than scifiction.

Non locality must be a considerable option.

Now the most important that drives us away from determinism:

Our intuition: Cause and effect=past-present.
This is how the known universe works.
Cause and effect works within a time frame.
First you cause and then you get the effect.
BUT.
Time is based largely on GRAVITY,and "gravity" is DIFFERENT in quantum level,thus cause and effect DOES not work like in the macroscopic universe.
Those random phenomena are highly questionable ,cause the case-effect works in a very different way in QM,not our traditional predictability.

Also the universe would be extremely different than it is now.

>> No.1886139

>>1886132
>thinks the impact of gravity on time negates causality

>> No.1886162

>>1885932
So you're trolling still? Haven't you been banned yet?

Basically there is no difference between a carbon atom taken from a human body and a carbon atom taken from a lump of coal. This is one of the fundamentals of common chemistry knowledge. The atoms aren't swimming in blood or anything that makes them magically alive, they're just connected the same way the atoms in a chunk of coal or composite atoms are. 1/10

>> No.1886170

>>1886132
>There is no free will,even self consciousness/awareness is deterministic

You're saying that it's impossible to have free will without determinism. I disagree with your definition of free will. Imagine you make two copies of a person and put them in separate but identical environments. Your definition of free will would give them the freedom to make different choices based on the exact same inputs. I agree with determinism and therefore believe that they would act the exact same way. But I disagree that they are not exhibiting free will.

>> No.1886174

If you were capable of looking at every single atom(possibly might need to be smaller) and pulse in an individual's body and put them in a closed environment, you could predict every single thing they'd ever do. Everything someone does is based on the accessing and organization of the various structures of the brain, the nerves and synapses.

>> No.1886200

>>1886174
I agree completely but this does not mean free will does not exist. Free will is the ability to choose your actions. Just because a given set of inputs guarantees a certain response, does not mean a choice is not being made. Making different choices based on the exact same input would be stupid and random.

>> No.1886242

>>1886170
>You're saying that it's impossible to have free will without determinism.
? Read again.

How should i put it..

1.Determinism: No free will.
2.Randomness: No free will.

1. Everything is determined 100% like it is now.
2. Its chaotic,there is no structure of anything,no will of ANY kind.

FREE WILL IS U-N-R-E-AL IN ANY CASE SCENARIO.

>>1886200
In that way of explanation "free will" "exists".
The difference is only in the semantics.
Not difference in the underlying mechanism whatsoever,its still deterministic.

>> No.1886284

>>1886242
According to Wikipedia, I am a "compatibilist" and you are an "incompatibilist"

>Compatibilism is the belief that free will and determinism are compatible ideas, and that it is possible to believe both without being logically inconsistent.
>Incompatibilism is the view that a deterministic universe is completely at odds with the notion that people have a free will.

These are old arguments.

>> No.1886287

>>1886200
>>1886242
We're not the same people.

>> No.1886296

>>1886287
I know, I am:
>>1886170
>>1886200
>>1886284

>> No.1886315

>>1886284
Whats ur argument then?
I know what wiki says,so?
What do you think makes your point valid?
How do you disprove my point?

>> No.1886329

>>1886284
You do realize that wiki just states what each group thinks of itself ,right?