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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1867559 No.1867559 [Reply] [Original]

Think about it...

>> No.1867564

I did, and you're wrong.

Saged

>> No.1867572

>>1867564
You're not supposed to put a d after sage, dumbass.

>> No.1867583

>>1867572
derp

>> No.1867598

Thought is not random at all.

>> No.1867746

>>1867598
That's what you think.

>> No.1867756

Is there RANDOM bouncing of atoms?

>> No.1867758

If the big bang was recreated and happened exactly as it did in our universe, everything would turn out the same, all atoms are driven in the course dictated to them by the laws of nature. Free will is an illusion.

>> No.1867763
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1867763

What?

Lets say you are actually correct. How does true "randomness" imply control?

10/10

>> No.1867779

>>1867758
does the uncertainty principle disprove this?

>> No.1867782

>>1867779
It's a limit on current theories and technology

>> No.1867785

True free will is the realization that you are and always were and always will be God

>> No.1867805

<implying atomic movement is random
<implying thought is from atoms
<implying freewill is thought
<implying random is freewill

on a related note, some say that freewill is knowing you have none, and accepting that.

>> No.1868323
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1868323

>> No.1869185

>>1868323
Come on, what are you, 5? Or just a /b/tard?

>> No.1869406

"Random" = we haven't been able to recognize a pattern

>> No.1869436

>>1867779
The uncertainty principle is about our abilities to make certain predictions at the subatomic level. It doesn't necessarily have any implications upon a deterministic universe, it does smash Laplace's Demon, which relies on perfect predictions and being able to wind things back in the exact manner they occurred. Laplace's Demon was killed long before the uncertainty principle though, by entropy. You can't rewind the universe to in the exact reverse that it happened becomes of entropy.

>> No.1869440

Random? No. We aren't in an environment of trillions of degrees where quantum sub-molecules lose their sense of order entirely and truly bounce randomly everywhere. It's an interesting concept, but not one that is based on scientific facts.

>> No.1869459

>>1868323
fuckin lol'd

>> No.1869481
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1869481

>random bouncing of atoms

i dont know what part of this statement made me rage the most

>> No.1869494

consciousness is an emergent property of our brains. Even our brains are made of atoms. this property is not inherent of the atom itself., neither the elements , nor the molecules. its generated by the interaction of several systems.. the fact that they are made of atoms is merely circumstantial

>> No.1869496

>>1869440

Meant to say subatomic particles.

quantum sub-molecules...lol

I really did think about it OP, and have concluded that it's these kind of statements that come from people that THINK they understand physics, but really don't.

>> No.1869498

>>1869481
I think it's the fact that you're so "smart" you're socially awkward.

>> No.1869509

if you think that the answer of why humans are sentlient creatures could be found by observing atoms, you are a fucking tool that deserves to be shot for the good of humanity

>> No.1869519

>>1869498
>I think it's the fact that you're so "smart" you're socially awkward.

lol what? i had a hard time understanding this. Kiddo, try to put your thoughts in order before typing, it might get a more coherent sentence compared to slamming the keyboard with your head, which is what you obviously did.

Also

this
>>1869509

>> No.1869541

>>1867559
Define "Random"

>> No.1869545

>>1869509
>>1869519
>Christfags that are too stupid to think for themselves so bible is the answer to everything

>> No.1869552 [DELETED] 

We still don't know (100%) if it is totally random.

Look up de Broglie-Bohm theorem. (Bohmian mechanics)

Its another interpretation of quantum mechanics, but unlike the usual Copenhagen Interpretation which basically states that quantum level objects have intrinsically random behavior it offers the explanation of local hidden variables within Schrodinger's equation that actually describe this behavior.

The de Broglie Bohm theory states that the reason the Copenhagen QM works is because over a long time, (i.e. since the beginning of the universe), these local hidden variables have reached a sort of equilibrium with each other and have balanced out.

The consequence to this is that if you were to know the all of the specifics of a quantum level object near the beginning of the universe, you could track its exact movement to this very moment using these hidden variables alongside normal QM.

>> No.1869556

>>1869545
>>atheist implying Christians must believe the Bible explains EVERYTHING.

The Bible is not a book that was meant to explain EVERYTHING in the first place. God gave us the ability to discover scientific principles for a reason.

>> No.1869569
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1869569

We still don't know (100%) if it is totally random.

Look up de Broglie-Bohm theorem. (Bohmian mechanics)

Its another interpretation of quantum mechanics, but unlike the usual Copenhagen Interpretation which basically states that quantum level objects have intrinsically random behavior it offers the explanation of local hidden variables within Schrodinger's equation that actually describe this behavior.

The de Broglie Bohm theory states that the reason the Copenhagen QM works is because over a long time, (i.e. since the beginning of the universe), these local hidden variables have reached a sort of equilibrium with each other and have balanced out.

The consequence to this is that if you were to know the all of the specifics of a quantum level object near the beginning of the universe, you could track its exact movement to this very moment using these hidden variables alongside normal QM.

Before someone mentions Bell's experiments to argue that these local hidden variables don't exist, those tests really only proved that the LHV's are definitely in balance today and would be near, (if not totally), impossible to determine the values of. (Unless we were to find a place in the universe in a 'near-beginning' state)

>> No.1869570

>>1869545
lol why do you imply theres 2 answers (religious,non religious)?
one is your stupid , oversimplified and poorly written statement, that you got from a "new age quantum physics interpretation" article of vogue magazine and to make things worse you shamelessly misunderstood.

but dont worry, this type of behavior is typical and actually expected of 12 year old kids.

>> No.1869573

>>1869556
>Implying that Im not also a christfag myself
I'm just not a fucking idiot that has trouble understanding chemistry and physics. Did you know that both are extremely simple because they are common sense? The only problem that you should have is remembering formulas and terms.

>> No.1869583

>>1869541
The way people go on about it, "random" is a effect without a cause, thus pretty much a retarded concept.

>> No.1869594

>>1869569
PROTIP: the behavior of subatomic particles says nothing about consciousness

the most suitable analogy for you to undestand is this

Imagine that you are looking at a city from a satelite. you see all this complex dynamics happening, traffic, buildings being built, others destroyed, new roads, people, etc etc. all the complexity that a city had.
would you look at the bricks that where used to built the city to explain its complexity?

>> No.1869598

>>1869570
The brain works with electricity. Do you know that humans know quite a bit about electricity, but not everything? Same with the brain, the fact that this isn't one of the first things that comes to mind shows how stupid you are.

>> No.1869599

>>1869594
>implying society is more complex than bricks

>> No.1869614

>>1869598
you are either a troll or an idiot. if you are serious, you are obviously trying too hard by explaining complex problems with what you just learn from your physics 101 undergrad course.
for any choice i wont bother to enlighten you anymore than what i already did.

>> No.1869620

>>1869599
they are.. you dont even know what complexity is.. thats why you would have to learn the hard way.

dont worry even some of my phd math/bio class mates had trouble dealing with these issues.

>> No.1869621

>>1869614
You are trying to imply that something physical can't be explained. There is no way that something can't be explained. Nothing is impossible, you faggot.

>> No.1869625

>>1869573

o.O.. No need to continue on gunny-sacking and patronizing me on things you don't know about me...like you did with the other two posters to whom you referenced in that first disrespectful post: making rash assumptions about the character of anonymous people. That's child's play, my friend.

>> No.1869640

>>1869594

Actually it does.
Everything can be broken down into sub processes, lets think about consciousness.

We are conscious because we have a brain. The workings of the brain can be broken down all of the way to quantum level. Without going into neuroscience, it works off of sending electrical impulses between nodes called neurons. These electrical impulses arise from chemical reactions between ions. These ions are reactive to each other in a way that can be described using quantum mechanics.

Non-determinists like to argue that free will might exist because the behavior of particles at a QM level is fuzzy and this fuzziness is somehow controlled by our consciousness. What I just posted about (>>1869569) was talking about how there is a possibility that nothing, including sub-atomic particles, is 'fuzzy'.

Also, the bricks that the city is made out of DOES influence traffic and everything around it, and indeed the whole universe. It's just that the effect is so incredibly subtle to our observation that we leave it out justly.

>> No.1869646

>>1869640
Checkmate christian

>> No.1869695

i see what you are trying to say. but going deeper into levels of sub-particles wont explain it why biological systems exist, or why we are conscious. The oversimplified model of neurons sending signals to other neurons, by some sort of "high command" is very misleading.
if you really analyze its dynamics, you will find out that the proteins/molecules that are in the synapse are communicating with other molecules in other synapse, sure they are electrons, and yes, these molecules are formed of atoms, but the capacity of exchanging information only happens at that level. you wont find out a schematic or any information or resemblance about consciousness at the QM level. because it just dont belong there

>this fuzziness is somehow controlled by our consciousness
>>1869640 new age bullshit detected, its all part of the wrong idea that reducing everything to its components and treating bio systems as machines is fruitful, thank god that the current research in neuroscience and bio is abandoning that old point of view.

>> No.1869711
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1869711

>>1869695

i think point missed?

>> No.1869750

>>1869695

quantum is proven, there's no new age bullshit about it

>> No.1869778

DETERMINISM AND INDETERMINISM DOESN'T HAVE SHIT TO DO WITH THIS.

Even in a completely indeterministic universe what we call free will doesn't seem to exist. The chemical reactions happen in your brain and from the reactions your thoughts are formed, NOT the other way around.

>> No.1869797

ITT:
People who have forgotten about OP's original post and that it is related to both physics and determinism.
People who do not understand physics and how it is linked to Determinism.
People who do not understand what Determinism is.