/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.1786956]

atheists, i have a question for you.

let's say you are in a position of helplessness, and I have a loaded gun pointed at you. No one is coming to your aid, your security systems are defeated, and the law will never catch me for the crime of killing you and your family, and of robbing you of everything you have. You are begging, pleading for your life. If God doesn't exist and I have no soul which will be eternally judged, why should i grant you mercy? If God's image isn't in you, then it's no different from killing a rat or protozoa. there is no absolute moral imperative for me to hold back from doing ANYTHING to you.

[Anonymous No.1786968]

>>1786956
You have it right, this is why some religious people find it imperative that religion stays, but they fail to realize compassion and empathy aren't a religious trait. I couldn't harm anyone in this world if I tried, I love people, I love learning, I love helping others through troubles for no reward. I am an atheist and this seems like a surprise to people like you after they ask, sense I never mention it my self. I am somehow expected to be immoral or without emotion just because I lack a belief in the supernatural, or rather, have a firm belief in having something substantial to believe in. It is as if I am not expected to be human somehow, but I am.

[Anonymous No.1786977]

>>1786956
exactly.

the only thing holding you back in that case is your empathy.
nothing outrageous about that.

[Anonymous No.1786982]

>>1786977
mind you, you'll still be considered evil by most people, atheist and theist alike.

senseless slaughter as being cool was hip for Aztecs and shit...it's gotten less popular now.

[Anonymous No.1786988]

I intend to deserve my death, so I probably wouldn't be begging you to not kill me, but that's probably hundreds of years away

[Anonymous No.1786990]

>>1786982
also, also
I think the indians had some trouble with that...or at least their religion, since kirshna, I think it was Krishna, was all like.
yo, if they reincarnate anyway, then I'll be killing only their physical forms, yo. That's cool, right?

So yeah...even religion can be odd like that.

[Anonymous No.1786999]

>>1786982
The Mayans would wage civil war constantly and do sacrifice of their winnings. They were pretty hard core. Neat fact: we haven't discovered even 1/10th of their temples in the jungles.

[Anonymous No.1787001]

>>1786988
>mfw you die the day before the singularity

[Anonymous No.1787002]

>implying I would beg for mercy

I could beg for mercy for my family, children and such but for me alone? Not really, I would take the first opportunity to beat the shit out of you and if I died in the process, ah well.

But yes, there is no objective morality that would make killing another human being "evil" or "bad". All we have is subjective, as well as our code of ethics which stems from our ability to feel empathy and understand the feelings of another person.

Believing in a magic guy in they sky doesn't suddenly make you a moral person, being human and living a human life among other humans does.

[Anonymous No.1787007]

>>1787002
I wonder how much this has to be repeated in order for it to sink in?

[Anonymous No.1787011]

>>1786956
>God's image
>souls
This is where Christians actually believe societal morality comes from!

[Anonymous No.1787024]

>>1787011
>mfw you burn in Hell for eternity

[Anonymous No.1787026]

>>1787007

Till the end of time. Unfortunately.

It always amused me how fixated are religious people on the idea of "absolute truth" and "objective and final judgement".

This is probably the worst effect of religion. Making people expect and demand final, unchanging and eternally true answers to the most difficult questions about the most relative situations.

[Anonymous No.1787031]

>>1787024
>your face IRL

[Anonymous No.1787030]

As an atheist I have a sense of compunction that can not be overridden by a lecherous old man in a frock or turban who claims a moral superiority. Theists abdicate their moral responsibility which means that they are capable of wickedness without compunction.

[Anonymous No.1787032]

>>1787024
>my face when every Christian is also going to hell for what they do to God's earth.

[Anonymous No.1787036]

>>1787024
>God's face when, if he existed, he would send everyone currently alive to hell

[Anonymous No.1787041]

>>1787030
Huh? How do I abdicate my moral responsibility? How do you have one?

[Anonymous No.1787043]

This thread reminds me of a billboard that I pass on my way to work everyday. It shows some church douchebags popular in my country with big white letters spelling:

"COURAGE OF HOLINESS"

THE RAGE.

Yeah, the COURAGE to feel superior to everyone else. Jesus christ, do these people have no shame at all?

[Anonymous No.1787050]

>>1787043
Maybe you should have attended the sermon to find out if by "holiness" they meant feeling superior to everyone else.

[Anonymous No.1787056]

>>1787041

My responsibility is my and my alone. It's subjective and it came from my upbringing, character and experiences of my life. It is responsibility to myself and to they way I want to be.

Because I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I acted without paying attention to my inner daemon as Socrates had put it.

[Anonymous No.1787058]

>>1787050

Yes they did, I used to be forced to go to church by my parents until I was 9 when I finally decided once and for all that this is clearly bullshit.

[Anonymous No.1787081]

>>1786999
>Haven't discovered 1/10th
>Haven't discovered
>Somehow knows the total amount anyway
>mfw

[Anonymous No.1787083]

>>1786956

No moral imperative to you maybe. As an atheist, and a humanist, I feel empathy for my fellow human beings, a feeling that exists beyond any intellectual position, nurtured and hardwired by evolution. I find the act of murder repulsive in it's own right, because I can empathize with the victim.

I wonder at all the theists who would become pedophiles without the threat of hell hanging over them all their lives. I sincerely hope they feel empathy, but so many of them profess not to in STUPID FUCKING ARGUMENTS LIKE FAGGOT OP's.

[Anonymous No.1787087]

>>1787056
A religious person's responsibility is also theirs and theirs alone. Most religions also include the person being held responsible after death for how they lived their life.

I'm certainly not going to persuade you from acting from your conscience. But without the belief that morality is ultimately based in something absolute, it seems to me there would be times that the belief that the conscience is, after all, arbitrary, would prevent it from standing up to temptation to do something that was not in accord with it.

[Anonymous No.1787089]

WITHOUT GOD THERE IS NO OBJECTIVE MORALITY HURR DURR.

So boring. Morality is a pile of stupid shit anyway, the most powerful arguments essentially reduce to "but don't you just SEE that it's like that, man?"

[Anonymous No.1787091]

>>1787058

I had the same experience, except I was dead scared of hell from 7-9 years of age (fundie mindset) from having read the bible as a young un. Also I used to pray for help against bullies instead of being a man. After a day of being mocked for my intellect and geekiness, I prayed and censored my every thought that this was taking too fucking long. The thought censoring took a strong grip on my mind but was eventually shattered after I read Phillip Pullman's Dark Materials and then when I heard about the creatards in the USA (having a very high regard for science).

Came out atheist at 15. Now a staunch defender of naturalism, humanism and science.

And yeah I know nobody cares.

[Anonymous No.1787093]

>>1787087
The point is we do think about how we treat each other regardless or else before religion came to be, we'd of been long fucked over.

[Anonymous No.1787094]

>>1787002
rofl you are a gayarse. You talk like John Rambo but in reality you're a little faggot on 4chan. You'd beg for mercy at the first chance you got. Besides, good luck finding your 'chance to beat the shit out of [them]" when you're tied up and looking into the eyes of some giant Russian who knows how to fight.

Fuck you. Underage ban him please.

[Anonymous No.1787095]

>>1787083
That's the problem right there. Anyone can act morally when their in a state of feeling empathy. But the idea of religion is to base it on reason, so that right action happens even if one isn't feeling empathy at the moment.

[Anonymous No.1787098]

>>1787089
To elaborate what I'd do in such a situation: I'd obviously appeal to whatever idea is the most likely to stop the guy. If I know he's a devout Christian, I'd use christian notions etc.

WHAT A GREAT PARADOX OMG I REALLY GOT TOLD HERE HUH?

[Anonymous No.1787097]

>>1787095
*their=they're

[Anonymous No.1787096]

>>1787041
If you say your morals come from a holy book you are abdicating your moral responsibility to whoever wrote that book. If you have as most theists do; a priest, mullah, or spiritual leader of your belief you accept their interpenetration of what ever book your holy book. This means that when the leader of your cult says you may beat your child or that you must mutilate their genitals the normal feeling of revulsion about conducting such a disgusting act is suspended.

[Anonymous No.1787101]

>>1787094

And you are an insecure bully who cannot stand the thought of anyone daring to oppose Der Fuhrer, leader of the Celestial Diktat.

Tengen Toppa Gurren-Lagann does not end well for the Anti-Spirals.

[Anonymous No.1787107]

>>1787030
You used compunction incorrectly in that sentence. Stop trying to elevate your writing with words you looked up in a dictionary and/or words you fail to understand the true meaning of.

[Anonymous No.1787108]

>>1787087

It's not arbitrary, It's a
absolute for me because I CAME UP WITH IT. My own moral judgement is the only on the matters. Even if I accepted right now that there indeed is a deity that has some kind of idea about objective morality I would still be IN THE EXACTLY SAME POSITION. Because the only way I can perceive the world is SUBJECTIVE. Even if god came down into my office and told me how morality works I would still interpret it and decide if I accept it or not based on MY OWN MORALITY.

Same fucking thing goes for you.

[Anonymous No.1787110]

>>1787096
Are you saying that your morality is completely original? It's not derived from anything? Not parents or society or anything you've ever come across? If you are, you're full of shit. If you're not, then you're morality is equally as "abdicated" as someones who has based theirs off a scripture, or a set of theological works, or other interpretation of scripture or reasoning about God that they have found to possess wisdom.

[Anonymous No.1787113]

>>1787058
>>1787043
I'm guessing you live in America.

Clearly the context is holiness being synonymous with 'goodness' - a core Christian value. Stop being so butthurt. How on earth do you think they are supposed to feel 'better than everyone else' when 82% of your country are Christian alone (according to the most recent survey conducted).

THE BUTTHURT.. YES LET IT FLOW.

[Anonymous No.1787122]

>>1787113

Not really, east europe.

But thanks for playing.

[Anonymous No.1787126]

>>1787108
That makes no sense. If you "came up with" the idea that stealing is wrong, then it is arbitrary, not absolute. You could easily "come up with" an alternate, like "stealing is wrong unless it's this awesome stapler that I want, because that's not really stealing". Without any external absolute, you would be justified in making that change. You are the final authority, so if you will it, then that is the moral standard. If you believed that your conscious was derived from an external moral absolute, you would hopefully be forced to confront the fact that you are bullshitting yourself, and that you can't change morality by willling or just "coming up with" something else,

[Anonymous No.1787133]

>>1787126

Except you pick the idea that increases the wellbeing of you and your fellow man. This isn't very hard, people. We have an instinctive AND a rational desire to see ourselves and others prosper. This is independent of religion and even species; piranhas do not practise cannibalism.

[Anonymous No.1787140]

>>1787113

Holiness is essentially slavishness (the property of having no balls)

So they value slavish obedient sheep instead of independent, free human beings.

[Anonymous No.1787139]

>>1787126

It's arbitrary for someone else, and yes, my moral values could have been as well completely different if I was born in a different time, or a different place and had different experiences.

But MY MORAL JUDGMENT IS THE ONLY ONE THAT I HAVE.

This really isn't that difficult.

[Anonymous No.1787149]

[Anonymous No.1787162]

>>1787107
No I did not.
>>1787110
>Are you saying that your morality is completely original?
No my morality is shared by most right thinking people I have met.
>It's not derived from anything?
It derived from my sense of empathy and my sense of compunction (in 4chan terms:knowledge I will have trolls remorse).
I will not beat a child because I know that I would not want that to be done to me and I know I would feel guilt/regret.

[Anonymous No.1787167]

>>1787149

That's it. I'm becoming an abreadist

[Anonymous No.1787171]

>>1787162

This, you can feel guilt and remorse without a magical daddy in the sky.

Get over yourselves christfags.

[Anonymous No.1787183]

>>1787091
Didn't anybody every explain the generally accepted notion across all religions? "Pray not for things, but for strength and courage". It's like praying for a bicycle and complaining when you don't get it. American fundies != Christianity. They're the same type, from what I hear, that hate gays, don't believe in the Big Bang Theory nor Evolution. The Catholic church even claims there may be ET's. So may I ask, what are you defending science from?

Retards gonna be retards, bro.

>>1787108
No you wouldn't. You wouldn't at all. A deity that has created the entire universe stands before you telling you how to live and you're going to hold it to your own standards? You'd most likely shit your pants and do whatever he says 100 %.

>>1787096
First of all, if you want to be respected try not calling all religions cults. More to the point, religious leaders are like guides. They have no control over anyone. All they do is share their interpretations which we in turn make judgements on. We can choose to accept or deny them. Why do you think people leave, join and convert into religions? Aren't their 'cult leaders' supposed to control them perfectly?

>>1787122
So why are you butthurt then? They are a fine and well respected community in Eastern Europe from what I understand.

>>1787133
I, and many others, would question that direct line of thought. Generally it's good, but I don't think we try to help ourselves as a species so much as we do our families and those within our own cliques. It's precisely why Anarchism is aids.

[Anonymous No.1787191]

It's hard to break free because of the crimestop going on in the theist mind. Any rational thought contradicting their religion is ignored and raged against, no matter how painful this process is, because their fear of hell trumps everything.

Their minds are like North Korea's censorship, nothing gets in.

[Anonymous No.1787193]

>>1787162
So your sentence read:

I am morally unsure about what is right to do (or remorseful, though unlikely it was this) because there are old men in robes teaching morality to others.

At best you fragmented that because we still have no idea what over. Your ideas aren't linked and I can't see how that would lead to personally affecting your judgement.

[Anonymous No.1787196]

>>1787183

>A deity that has created the entire universe stands before you telling you how to live and you're going to hold it to your own standards? You'd most likely shit your pants and do whatever he says 100%.

No I wouldn't. I'm sorry to hear that you would cower in fear before that kind of authority figure but that's not my thing. Just because it created the universe doesn't mean it's benevolent, kind or moral. And might does not make right. Sorry to break that to you.

[Anonymous No.1787202]

>>1787183

If god won't intercede against injustice then by anyone's moral standard's he's lazy at best and actively malevolent at worst.

And I will hold him to my standards. If my standards did not apply equally to everyone then they would be useless as a guide. God does not get an exception. If he really does speak to terrorists and command them to act, he's guilty just as much as we know osama bin laden is.

There is a very good book called Nineteen Eighty-Four, which demonstrates a leader that can never be held to account, never be held to any moral standard.

[Anonymous No.1787204]

>>1787196
LOL, I think you need to think about that more.

[Anonymous No.1787205]

you shouldn't kill me because i wouldn't kill you

ass

[Anonymous No.1787207]

>>1787204

0/10

You were doing well but now you slipped. But keep training and come back when your troll-fu is a little stronger.

[Anonymous No.1787216]

>>1787205
That doesn't seem like a compelling reason.

[Anonymous No.1787219]

>>1787207
what you're failing to understand is the ludicrousness of the proposition that the entity who created right and wrong might be wrong about what is right and wrong.

[Anonymous No.1787223]

>>1787219

Hahahahah, now you're getting better.

But seriously. God might have his own idea of what is right and what is wrong, and it might be in perfect accordance with how he created the universe, but the doesn't mean that I hold the same values and it doesn't mean that he got it right.

She might as well have created a world in which the idea of right and wrong is completely twisted and illogical.

[Anonymous No.1787228]

>>1787196
Did you just get your first signs of pubic hair? How can anyone honestly be as dumb as you.

You would probably piss your pants if a big guy threatened to beat you up.

(inb4 hurr nobody can I'm best fighta in da US oF AYE!11)

[Anonymous No.1787230]

>>1787216
yet its the basis of civilized society

[Anonymous No.1787231]

Sounding quite evil there, OP.

Many religious folk think the way you do and truly do not comprehend genuine empathy for one's fellow man. Superstitious fear just might be the only thing keeping you in line.

A different time or a different belief system and you'd be one of history's monsters.

[Anonymous No.1787233]

>>1787228

It's not about being strong. It's about values and things you believe in. I will repeat, might does not make right.

[Anonymous No.1787235]

i wouldnt beg for my life, a person that kills other people without an reason would probably do it, because they want to feel the power over the other person, it would only make him feel better...theres no other reason for someone to be a murderer since we dont eat other people
having a religion is an reason since more than 2000 years to kill each other...the world would be better without religion

[Anonymous No.1787238]

>>1787219

>implying that an entity created everything and cant be detected

>implying that this entity didn't need to be created

>implying that if we think that this entity is evil with the standards it supposedly gave us, that we are wrong and that it is in fact exercising one set of standards for its playthings and another for itself.

[Anonymous No.1787239]

>>1787223
God seems similar to me if he exists, a total psycho. Create universe of HUGE vastness, make 1 planet with lifeforms, design them to fight each other, torture their life by giving them all natural depression, low mood levels. Give them many a religion to feel the wrath and might of me, and make them fight over me.. Mhmm got my entertainment going good. Oh I know, they're going to do space travel, Light speed LIMIT! Fuckers can just drool at that unlimited space out there, its ALLL mine! You can't stop me! I am the supreme ruler, creator and.. I forgot, it don't matter I'm sucking up all the happy from your misery! =D

[Anonymous No.1787241]

>>1787183
>First of all, if you want to be respected try not calling all religions cults. More to the point, religious leaders are like guides. They have no control over anyone. All they do is share their interpretations which we in turn make judgements on. We can choose to accept or deny them. Why do you think people leave, join and convert into religions? Aren't their 'cult leaders' supposed to control them perfectly?

Each church has a group of leaders with a certain degree of independence. It sounds like the leader of your particular flock is not making any moral judgment about your actions. That would be a truly exceptional religious leader.
Some religious leaders instruct their followers to mutilate the genitals of male children. If that is not done they can not be a part of that faith. They loose their friends and their community shuns them.
Many people are indoctrinated as small children to do what their religious leaders tell them to do. The leaders are given very high status in society so that when these children become angsty teenagers they fall prey to mullahs who convince them to blow themselves up in markets. To suggest that these mullahs don't control these indoctrinated youth is silly.

[Anonymous No.1787245]

>>1787223
The point is that that position is completely irrational. There is no right or wrong that exists just because you think it is right or wrong.

[Anonymous No.1787256]

[Anonymous No.1787258]

>>1787245

Yes it does. I mean, I may not have free will in the worst case but I do have my own ideas of what is wrong and what is right. And they are mine and only mine, they can be influenced by the reality I live in but it doesn't change the fact that they are completely subjective for me. And it is as close to objectivity as I will ever get. Which is not too close to be frank.

God has his own ideas about right and wrong and I have my own and I have the right to hold them. And if the said deity doesn't agree with that right then how can you cal it good or benevolent?

[Anonymous No.1787266]

Objective morality is not possible because the world full of sentient beings is subjective and relative at every step.

Deal with it.

[Anonymous No.1787269]

>>1786956
OP.
There exists no purpose for existance, the amount of arguments that are against you pulling the trigger are just as futile as the amount of arguments that are 'for' pulling the trigger.

What exactly are you trying to question? Why you shouldn't be a prick?
Because we're civilized. Or are you telling me that Christians have no comprehension of this?

[Anonymous No.1787270]

>>1787258
God absolutely gives you the right to be wrong. But you are still wrong if you're wrong. If you know what is right but choose to know what is wrong, then you are exercising your right to be wrong, but being wrong is not rational. For God substitute logic. If your belief violates logic, no matter that you think your subjective is as close as you can get to to the objective, you are objectively wrong, because logic is objectively right.

[Anonymous No.1787272]

You all were trolled. :)

[Anonymous No.1787287]

>>1787270

Morality and ethics isn't really a field influenced by logic my good sir. It's all subjective because it has it's roots in your subjective feelings and emotions.

And why are you assuming that the said deity HAS to be right? It doesn't. You just assume that and that is quite dangerous. Because you really can't know if god is the good one and the devil is the bad one if you decide to get all your morality from one of them. How exactly can you be sure that god is the good one? You can't.

And might does not make right as I have to constantly repeat.

[Anonymous No.1787320]

>>1787287
>It's all subjective because it has it's roots in your subjective feelings and emotions.
There's your problem. If your morality has its roots in subjective feelings and emotions, it may change with your feelings and emotions, which themselves are not always moral.

>And why are you assuming that the said deity HAS to be right? It doesn't.
It does. That's what you're not getting. It is the author of morality, just as it is the author of logic.

>And might does not make right as I have to constantly repeat.
Repeating it doesn't make it relevant. Right makes right. The creator of good, the source of good, is and determines objective good. What we do is to understand objective good and follow it. By using our reason in that process, we can hold to what is good even if our feelings and emotions are trying to lead us astray.

[Anonymous No.1787339]

Grats OP, you've just discovered moral nihilism, AKA the truth.

[Anonymous No.1787350]

Just because I am an athiest doesn't mean I can't try to convince you I'm not

[Anonymous No.1787353]

>>1786999
how do we know how many we've discovered before we've discovered them?

>>1786982

>senseless slaughter
>less popular now

you have got to be trolling; look at Rwanda, Cambodia, Former Yugoslavia, Somalia, Sierra Leone, even the nazi regime is fairly recent. Modern man is only getting better and better at killing fellow humans.

[Anon No.1787373]

Cbf reading priors but I say, hidden premise is that Divine Command Theory is true, which it blatantly isn't, there ARE absolute moral truthes INDEPENDENT of God, so you'd still be a fucking psycho for murdering me.

Browsing a theist website and looking at their arguments for God will get you absolutely nowhere. Go home middle class american child.