My rage was so high that it flipped over to lol. http://www.faithclipart.com/guide/christian-apologetics/christian-arguments-against-atheism.html inb4 "science vs religion thread"

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Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:26:10 2010 No.1678608 [Reply] [Original]

My rage was so high that it flipped over to lol.

http://www.faithclipart.com/guide/christian-apologetics/christian-arguments-against-atheism.html

inb4 "science vs religion thread"

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:30:10 2010 No.1678624 > To date, there has been zero conclusive scientific or philosophical arguments that disprove the existence of divinity. One who professes to be a strong atheist must then prove that he or she is omniscient (all knowing). WTF am I reading??

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:31:10 2010 No.1678631 File: 72 KB, 410x559, 128356767321.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >I went some where I knew would make me angry, now I'll bitch about being angry. totaly a science vs religion thread

>>	• aє†нєя • Mon Aug 30 21:31:10 2010 No.1678633 Why does it look like the higgs boson.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:38:10 2010 No.1678665 >>1678633 an event horizon mockup scenario. looking at what would be the horizon while standing "up" from the hole (red). Blue, and the other circles are outside light sources. Thanks OP I lost that image and the source.

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:44:10 2010 No.1678691

>>1678665
sorry.
It is intended to show the bending of light as we would see it upon entering the horizon. the white line, if i remember correctly is the light that is trapped in the "purgatory" of unable to break free from the gravitational pull, yet unable to fall into the object.
>Black hole Obtains: satellite make entirely of light.
>Is this awesome? Y/Y

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:45:10 2010 No.1678696

>It can be concluded that a strong atheistic worldview, no matter how eloquently explained, is impractical and illogical. Clinging to a strong atheistic view requires that one must reject scientific and philosophical evidence currently known and yet to be known.

What? WHAAAT?!

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:51:10 2010 No.1678724

I was fine with this, which is all pretty true, yet with the argument remaining moot in that the same argument can be made against theists.
That is, until I came across:
>It can be concluded that a strong atheistic worldview, no matter how eloquently explained, is impractical and illogical. Clinging to a strong atheistic view requires that one must reject scientific and philosophical evidence currently known and yet to be known.
wtf am i reading and is this reasoning not explained?

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:52:10 2010 No.1678728 >>1678724 *why is this

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:53:10 2010 No.1678735 Sounds like someone just sat down and made up a bunch of shit that sounded good at the time and then stated it as fact. Kind of like a fiction writer explaining the laws of their made up civilization without explaining that it doesn't apply to us.

>>	Carl Sage'n Mon Aug 30 21:55:10 2010 No.1678750 File: 176 KB, 533x400, opretarded.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] THIS ISN'T SCIENCE!!!

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 21:56:10 2010 No.1678753 I love how theists assume that the burden of proof is on atheists, when they are in fact making claim that god does exist, placing the burden on them.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 22:03:10 2010 No.1678779 >>1678735 Or the bible/quran/torah/etc/etc

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 22:06:10 2010 No.1678794

http://www.faithclipart.com/guide/christian-apologetics/the-bible-as-a-marvel-of-literature.html

>The Bible is a marvel of literature. The content is controversial, the statements are absolute and it contains no contradictions within. No other document in the world can come close in comparison with the Bible and it is no surprise that it is the most read, the most cherished, and the most accurate text ever. The continuity within the books of the Bible are statistically improbable which makes the Bible stand head and shoulders above the rest.

> ... The stories contained within the passages have proven over and over again to be archaeologically and historically correct.

>The Bible reads like a book from one plot point to the next. What makes it so unique is that it was written in more than a 1,500-year span by different authors, in different styles, in different moods, in different geographical locations, and by authors of different walks of life. Amazingly, the Bible is free from contradictions in every controversial subject posed. It is truly the Book of Books.

<snipped stuff about Star Wars>

>The improbability of the continuity of the Bible is mind boggling. Christians can be assured that the Bible is in fact accurate in it historical context, proven by archaeology, and complete in its textual context. The Bible without a doubt is the infallible Word of God, free from contradiction, and trustworthy beyond any other document ever.

This leads me to want to ask the author one little question.
HAVE YOU EVER ACTUALLY READ THE BIBLE?

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 22:12:10 2010 No.1678820 >>1678794 doesn't war and peace have more characters than the bible? and it was all written by one person... lets all have a sprinkling of sage...

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 22:32:10 2010 No.1678914

>>1678794
>Earth existed before the first stars
>So did plants

>The flood covered the highest mountains
>A boat 450 feet long held 14 of dozens of different species of cattle, 2 of EVERYTHING ELSE, and a 400 year old man's extended family
>The flood covered every mountain on earth, even though there isn't nearly that much water in existence.
(Well, anywhere near earth)

>Bats are birds
>Insects have four legs
>The Israelites fought people 13 feet tall
>The earth has corners

>I am the only god
>Egyptian and Babylonian gods exist

>David's army outnumbered the Roman army centuries later, and the US army today

>When Jesus died, there were three hours of complete darkness, a huge earthquake, and zombies in the streets.
But, despite huge amounts of historical and archaelogical work on the period- the Romans kept meticulous records- there is no record of this anywhere outside the gospels.

Should I keep going?

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 22:41:10 2010 No.1678939 File: 25 KB, 620x347, FinnScream.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1678794 >>1678914 how could anyone possibly believe this I just don't... what the hell is.... my brain is full of fuck man

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 22:45:10 2010 No.1678957 >>1678914 >Bats are birds >Insects have four legs >I am the only god [citation required] >The earth has corners This means the 4 compass points, moron

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 22:54:10 2010 No.1678986
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>>1678957
>[Citation needed]
Leviticus 11
11:13 And these are they which ye shall have in abomination among the fowls ; they shall not be eaten, they are an abomination: the eagle, and the ossifrage, and the ospray,
<Long list of birds snipped>
19 And the stork, the heron after her kind, and the lapwing, and the bat.

Leviticus 11, again
21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
22 Even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind.

ONE. TWO. THREE. FOUR. FIVE. SIX.
HOW HARD IS THAT?

Isaiah 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Deuteronomy 6:14 Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;
6:15 (For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you) lest the anger of the LORD thy God be kindled against thee, and destroy thee from off the face of the earth.

Sauce: King James Version

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:03:10 2010 No.1679015 These christian beliefs are comedy gold, keep em coming.

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:04:10 2010 No.1679018

>>1678986
>Leviticus 11:13
The word you're translating "fowl" is `owph. It means 1) flying creatures, fowl, insects, birds. This includes bats.

>Leviticus 11:21-22
"all fours" is a translation from an Hebrew idiom for crawling. The Hebrew and English idioms are very similar, so one would think an intelligent person would pick up on it unless they were trying to be ridiculously pedantic.

>Isaiah 43:10
"None before me and none after me" is not equivalent to none others existing.

>Deuteronomy 6:14
Saying not to follow other gods doesn't imply there are none.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:05:10 2010 No.1679023 >>1679018 >I am a scholar of Ancient Hebrew [Citation needed]

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:07:10 2010 No.1679043 >>1679023 http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5775&t=KJV

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:08:10 2010 No.1679045

>>1678624
"> To date, there has been zero conclusive scientific or philosophical arguments that disprove the existence of divinity. One who professes to be a strong atheist must then prove that he or she is omniscient (all knowing).

WTF am I reading??"
Even if you assume that all proofs for God are false and that all religion is wrong, you STILL do not disprove God. Disproving positive evidence for God in no way disproves God. Your anger is unfounded as that statement is 100% accurate, there is no disproving God, and there cannot be.

Don't misconstrue what this statement is saying. At the bottom level you can be agnostic, but to say anything about the existence or lack of existence of God is a claim to know something. Any claim to know something requires a reason to claim it. There is no reason for claim that God does not exist, therefore Atheism is incompatible with logic. Just say you do not know as an agnostic would say.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:12:10 2010 No.1679055 >>1679018 >"None before me and none after me" is not equivalent to none others existing. >one would think an intelligent person would pick up on it unless they were trying to be ridiculously pedantic. Problem, apologist?

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:15:10 2010 No.1679067

>>1679045
>Disproving positive evidence for God in no way disproves God

Actually it does. If there is no evidence that somehing exists, then it doesn't exist (e.g. the magical dildo fairy).

If you have no evidence you must conclude something doesn't exist. There are infinite possibilities for things that could exist. Those possibilities have as much evidence for them as the concept of a god. Which is none.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:20:10 2010 No.1679082 >>1679067 >If there is no evidence that somehing exists, then it doesn't exist lolwut? argument from ignorance fallacy much?

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:21:10 2010 No.1679085

>>1679043
I concede the point regarding the translation of the word 'omph.
However, it's worth noting that this does little to defeat my thesis: That the quoted article's assertion that the bible is utterly free from historical, scientific, or TEXTUAL (including translation) errors is, in a word bullshit.

As for issues of self-contradiction, I was demonstrating the fact that god, in the Book of Isaiah, insists that he is the only god. One would think an intelligent person would pick up on this, unless they were trying to be ridiculously pedantic.
The quote from Deuteronomy, on the other hand, is an admission by YHWH of the existence of other gods, and a command to forsake them all in his favour.

This is a contradiction, not of some minor point easily explained away as a translation error, or by the fact that Moses never bothered to pick up an insect and count the legs, but of one of the most important tenets of the christian faith.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:22:10 2010 No.1679088 >>1679045 IT would appear that statement was directed specifically at strong atheists.

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:22:10 2010 No.1679091

>>1679067
Take any introduction to logic course. The conclusion that God does not exist does not follow the premise that there is no evidence. There could be no evidence for something, yet it exists.

I only seek to show you that you have assumed something simply because you do not want it to be true, and that you do not have a foundational reason for what you believe.

>>	Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:24:10 2010 No.1679104 File: 102 KB, 1024x768, zeus.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] ZEUS SMASH!

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:27:10 2010 No.1679113

>>1679085
>or TEXTUAL (including translation) errors
That's not what textual means. Any book can have someone make a bad translation of it. A translation isn't a property of the book.

The whole OT is filled with the issue of the Israelites going after the local gods and idols in the land they are inhabiting. There is never even a question that those gods/idols exist. The Isaiah passage is not suddenly saying they don't. It's saying there were none before me and there will be none after me. It's part of the message that YHWH is eternal, the beginning and the end.

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:33:10 2010 No.1679140

>>1679113
Okay.
Staying just within the book of Isaiah, take a look at 44:8, and 46:9.

44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

>Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
>There was never a question that those gods exist.

Satisfied? I can keep going.

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:33:10 2010 No.1679145

Some people say that it is impossible to disprove the existance of God. Therefore by this logic, it is impossible for God to not exist, so therefore he must exist, that is the only alternative.

But then what is God. There are infinite possibilities for what God could be. How can you prove something exists or not when you don't even know what that something is ("I'm testing if God exists, but I dont actually know what God is").

The God in the Christian Bible exists according to what is said in the bible. It's been proven that the bible is wrong in many many ways; e.g. the world is actually older than stated in the bible, as scientifically proven, therefore the bible is wrong, therefore its God doesn't exist. However the God of the bible could exist if he was a liar, and lied about things in the bible. But then this is a circular argument, for if God lied about things in the bible, his very existance might be a lie: i.e. it is a lie that the liar exists.

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:41:10 2010 No.1679183

>>1679091
>Take any introduction to logic course. The conclusion that God does not exist does not follow the premise that there is no evidence. There could be no evidence for something, yet it exists.

Your logic is completely flawed. You say something could exist without evidence. How do you know something exists if there is no evidence to indicate to you that it does exists? The answer is, you don't.

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:51:10 2010 No.1679228

>>1679145
I would define God to be the collective conscience of not only mankind, but all possibility thereof, or outside of our reality. God is infinite, we are finite. God has the knowledge of all possible experiences and we are but one experience. All finite beings that are, or could be, make up the mind of who God, the father is. God as a being is timeless, and unchangeable.

God is not of infinite possibilities, but is the very being which is infinite. There is only one infinite mind of God and that stands above all "possible" man-made concepts of what you are considering God could potentially be.

I am not a trained apologist of the bible, but the bible is not claimed to be incapable of incurring error. There has been translational and grammatical, and purposeful manipulation of the text. The world of God is a living word. The living word is Jesus, and he is the example of how our lives ought to be lived and revealed in times past. The bible is a guide to the foundations of inner knowledge that has been reveled in the heart of those God has chosen to reveal himself in. Who we are is from God, all things that are in our reality are there because if they were not, you would cease to be who you are. If anything was different, you would be different. Such is an argument against ones own existence.

Anonymous Mon Aug 30 23:51:10 2010 No.1679229

>>1679113
I was not attempting to blame the original authors of the Bible for millenia of bad translations of bad translations. However, the original article under discussion mentioned translation in such a way as to imply that the english bible suffers from no errors in translation. As you have just demonstrated, this is not the case.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 00:15:10 2010 No.1679350

>>1679228
Nothing you say makes much sense, its just jibberish which you use to convince people to support your ill-defined belief.

>God is infinite, we are finite
Proof? You have none to support this idea. Infact you have no evidence he exists in the first place.

>the bible is not claimed to be incapable of incurring error.
therefore we shouldn't take anything it presents as fact, including the existance of god.

>Who we are is from God
therefore god makes people murder and steal?

Everything you say is vague, you could write it down and the next person who reads it could interpret it differently. Your arguments lack logic. You use emotion to convince people of your arguments, as you have no logic to back you up.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 00:35:10 2010 No.1679458

>>1679140
Okay, you're right, that says there's no God but God. I wonder what a typical ancient Hebrew would say to that. For a Christian or a modern Jew, it doesn't present any difficulties, as they believe there is only one God, but for the most part the Old Testament is written in the context of a people who believed that YHWH was one of many real gods, but to whom the actual creator was revealing himself as YHWH Elohim.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 00:38:10 2010 No.1679479

>>1679350
>>God is infinite, we are finite
>Proof? You have none to support this idea. Infact you have no evidence he exists in the first place.
Not who you responded to, but as the ancient Greeks argued, there is an absolute logical necessity for there to be an infinite, from which all finite things derive their existence. This infinite is what we call God, and the necessity of the infinite is the proof that he exists.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 00:42:10 2010 No.1679502

>>1679350
I was not attempting to "prove" God. I was attempting to define him. The proofs are out there, and you have open access to finding them so I won't go into that. God can be known from inner truth away from any outward "proof", I don't even need to "prove" God to you or anyone for it to be valid. How the creator God reveals himself is not for you to dictate. God has revealed him self in the manner he wanted to, I will not argue with it.

>therefore we shouldn't take anything it presents as fact, including the existance of god.
That is like throwing out all scientific observation cause there has been error made or discarding an entire history book because of a mistype. The foundations of Christianity are plainly preserved. The individual claims of contradiction or translational error can be found in the field of Christian Apologetics. The information is out there for any serious concerns. I can confirm my discernment for the truth through the inner knowledge that has been instilled in me.

>therefore god makes people murder and steal?
I believe all finite beings are given there manifestation of existence from God, yes.
If all that is was not as it is, you would not be you. Who you are is determined from your experiences, circumstances, choices, feelings, and knowledge. If things were different then who you are would be different. You as you know yourself would not exist.

The very claim that God is evil is one that assumes absolute morality exists. The morality you use to judge God is of finite nature. The reality that evil exists is further proof that God exists. If God had not written morality on our hearts, we would be unable to even make such a claim against him. The nature world does not have a problem with survival of the fittest or any such thing.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 00:44:10 2010 No.1679519
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>>1679479
>If there is an absolute logical necessity for something to exist, it must exist. This is irrefutable.
Okay.
>There is an absolute logical necessity for something infinite to exist, by which finite things may be defined. This is irrefutable.
I'd ask to see your proofs, but I'll take this one on good faith.
>This infinite thing is a big beared magician in the sky, who doesn't like homosexuals or bacon. This is irrefutable.
See, this is the part where I always get lost.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 00:56:10 2010 No.1679592 >>1679479 okay lets assume that finite things derive from infinity. how can you be sure that this infinity has a conscience or purpose, and that praying to it can solve your problems?

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 00:57:10 2010 No.1679601

>>1679519
>This infinite thing is a big beared magician in the sky, who doesn't like homosexuals or bacon. This is irrefutable.
>implying I said that.
If you just want proof of God, that's different from proof that the Bible or any other scripture came from God. If you're looking for proof of a beard, I have no idea where the concept of God's beard even comes from. Actually... I did read some obscure old kabbalistic text that had seven chapters devoted to describing the mystical qualities of God's beard. Jews are big on beards.

tldr; proof of god is easier than proof of divine origin of scripture.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:00:10 2010 No.1679631 But, this is just a rational look on the word "atheist", and has zero arguments in it... What the fuck, why would you rage? I applaud this!

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:03:10 2010 No.1679639

>>1679592
Obviously some don't make that leap. Some regard this infinite as something like the Tao or a non-personal version of the Logos. Ultimately, it's going to come down to one's experience. That includes ones experience with various scriptures. If one experiences a connection with the infinite through a given religion's scriptures, then the person is going start viewing that infinite and understanding that connection through the framework described in that scripture. And I think that's legitimate. The scripture proves itself to the person by acting as a means for experiencing a connection with the infinite.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:05:10 2010 No.1679654

>>1679502
>I don't even need to "prove" God to you or anyone for it to be valid.
No you don't need to discuss it with others, however you could be wrong, so discussing with others could give you access to new information that will support or dissprove your arguments.

>The proofs are out there, and you have open access to finding them so I won't go into that.
In other words you have no proof.

>How the creator God reveals himself is not for you to dictate
So he reveals himself, which proves his existance. How exactly? Again you have no proof of the existance of God.

You use the same vague manner of discussion, which cannot be followed in a logical sense.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:08:10 2010 No.1679663 >>1679654 Hello RED. It seems you have encountered a wild theist. Be warned, RED, logic-type attacks are not very effective. -Oak

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:15:10 2010 No.1679693

>>1679654
The Cosmological argument, Ontological argument, Existence of Evil argument, Prophesy, time paradox, Inner knowledge, Miracles, history (Jews, Bible, Secret Societies, worship of demons). The Illuminati actively serves Lucifer believing him to be the "true" God. The New World Order is no lie, and is prophesy in action. The return of Israel to its land. Secret Society disclosures, demonic possession, witchcraft, ect.

I cannot convince a heart that is hardened and unwilling to see the truth. It is not in my power to do so. My job is only to provide the truth, and hope that it is God's will that you listen.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:19:10 2010 No.1679715

>>1679693
Sooo, it's ultimately up to God whether we accept the evidence for his existence.
The acception of which would save us from HELL.
And yet it's OUR fault, when God is the guy calling the shots?

That's like burning a sockpuppet for saying a bad word.
It makes absolutely ZERO sense when YOU were controlling the fucking puppet.

Basically, your god is either stupid, or an asshole.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:20:10 2010 No.1679720 >>1679693 6/10. I was halfway through typing a response to your previous post. Would troll again. >>1679663 Go, EPICURUS! EPICURUS used UNABLE OR UNWILLING? APOLOGIST was burned!

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:22:10 2010 No.1679730 >>1679720 Dammit, someone should make a religion-mon game. All religions would obviously be represented by some pokemon, and all attacks switched with relevant ones. I can't help but snicker when the creationists would evolve.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:26:10 2010 No.1679761

>>1679715
Yes, it up to God the father who he gives to his son. Those who are saved are determined before the universe began. Ultimately all people with confess Jesus as lord. The final purposes of God will be to glorify the person of God, the fathers son.

All authority in heaven is given to the son, and the title deed to the universe is his. Those who do not believe will have there place in the consummation of the age, Jesus will expect his authority and justice for all to see.

In the end times those left will be in open defiance to God. Armageddon is the last struggle for mankind.

Humanity is at war with God. Humans want to live apart from God and have freewill of their own. Only a few will find reconciliation with God the father through his son, Jesus whom he loves, and gives us to.

In the end ALL the glory will be to God. You are what you are. An argument against that is an argument against your existence.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:28:10 2010 No.1679777 >>1679761 i just know this is a troll now.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:31:10 2010 No.1679787
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>>1679720
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

By what standards do you use to judge God? The vary existence you have was given to you. Without the experiences you have, you would not be you, think about it. Morality comes from God. This "proof" against God does nothing but further proof God.

To say that God is evil, is to say evil exists.
To say evil exists is to say there is a standard for morality.
To say there is a standard for morality is proof of God.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:32:10 2010 No.1679788

>>1679693
If I go to hell I'm going to blame you for failing to convince me that God exists.

>>1679663
>It seems you have encountered a wild theist.
He/she may be a wild theist, but I enjoy the discussion because I have nothing better to do.

>>1679761
what is this I dont even

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:34:10 2010 No.1679795

>>1679787
I judge him by the standard that you shouldn't do harm.
God is, by definition, omnipotent.
IPSO FUCKING FACTUM, he can do absolutely anything imaginable, without hurting even a single cell in the universe.

Anyone that does harm when they don't NEED to, is an asshole.

Therefore, I conclude very easily, that your God, sir, is a fucking asshole.
And WAY worse than Hitler.
I mean, hitler was a cozy bunny compared to th guy who made sure humans were able to end eachother's life in the first place.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:36:10 2010 No.1679801

>>1679761
Yes, it up to Eternal President Kim Il-Sung who he gives to The Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il. Those who are saved are determined before the universe began. Ultimately all people with confess Kim Jong-Il as The Dear Leader. The final purposes of Eternal President Kim Il-Sung will be to glorify the person of Eternal President Kim Il-Sung, the Eternal President's son.

All authority in heaven is given to The Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il, and the title deed to the universe is his. Those who do not believe will have there place in the consummation of the age, Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il will expect his authority and justice for all to see.

In the end times those left will be in open defiance to Eternal President Kim Il-Sung. Armageddon is the last struggle for mankind.

Humanity is at war with Eternal President Kim Il-Sung. Humans want to live apart from Eternal President Kim Il-Sung and have freewill of their own. Only a few will find reconciliation with Kim Il-Sung the Eternal President through his son, Kim Jong-Il whom he loves, and gives us to.

In the end ALL the glory will be to Eternal President Kim Il-Sung. You are what you are. An argument against that is an argument against your existence.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:37:10 2010 No.1679804 >>1679787 >To say that God is evil, is to say evil exists. Sure, as a concept. >To say evil exists is to say there is a standard for morality. Well yeah, there are many. >To say there is a standard for morality is proof of God. whatisthisidonteven

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:41:10 2010 No.1679824

>>1679795
Atheists, including Epicurus, apparently like to define omnipotent to include defying paradox and such. That's not how the other Greeks defined it, and it's not how Christian theologians have defined it. If you want to say God isn't omnipotent by you're definition, go for it. But the answer to Epicurus's question is that God created the human race with free will so that they could freely manifest good. Allowing for that is the ultimate act of benevolence and God's purpose in creation, but it necessitates the existence of evil.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:44:10 2010 No.1679841

>>1679824
Non-Koreans, including George Bush, apparently like to define omnipotent to include defying paradox and such. That's not how the other Greeks defined it, and it's not how North Korean Historians have redefined it. If you want to say Eternal President Kim Il-Sung isn't omnipotent by you're definition, go for it. But the answer to George Bush's question is that Eternal President Kim Il-Sung created the human race with free will so that they could freely manifest good. Allowing for that is the ultimate act of benevolence and Eternal President Kim Il-Sung's purpose in creation, but it necessitates the existence of evil.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:45:10 2010 No.1679848

>>1679795
What God has done is only indirect. He is the father of all created beings. Some, such as Lucifer desire chaos and separation from God. To them, heaven is hell, and hell is heaven. Would you rather return to your creator, or live in separation from him? That is the choice you are making.

The being of God has three distinct persons. The father, son, and holy spirit. Just like we are all human beings, we are individual persons. "God" is what something is, and the person of God is who it is.

Jesus himself is the perfect spotless lamb. Jesus is the perfect moral example of all people of all time. He sacrificed himself to gain the fellowship with those the father gave him. We will share in the love of God as adopted sons, whom all authority that was given to Jesus declared right standing in the highest court, the court of God.

The father created all created things. Jesus, the fathers son, shares in the will and knowledge of the father. Only Jesus having both God and Man natures is able to approach the father. All of humanity has fallen and is unable to return to his presence. Only those who the father has predetermined to give to the son will be able to return.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:45:10 2010 No.1679849 >>1679824 so why punish

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:51:10 2010 No.1679880

Everytime there is a disussion between athiests and god beleivers, the latter of the two pulls out increasingly confusing logic as the discussion progresses, to the point where athiests (like me) give up, because everything they say is like a poem gone wrong. Such vague terminology is impossible to follow, and is infact the reason why the bible is so open to interpretation. Thats why I like science better, its more precise and somewhat easier to understand.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:52:10 2010 No.1679887

>>1679848
What Eternal President Kim Il-Sung has done is only indirect. He is the Eternal President of all created beings. Some, such as America desire chaos and separation from Eternal President Kim Il-Sung. To them, heaven is hell, and hell is heaven. Would you rather return to your creator, or live in separation from him? That is the choice you are making.

The being of Eternal President Kim Il-Sung has two distinct persons. The Eternal President, and The Dear Leader. Just like we are all human beings, we are individual persons. "Eternal President Kim Il-Sung" is what something is, and the person of Eternal President Kim Il-Sung is who it is.

The Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il himself is the perfect spotless lamb. The Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il is the perfect moral example of all people of all time. He sacrificed himself to gain the fellowship with those the Eternal President gave him. We will share in the love of Eternal President Kim Il-Sung as adopted sons, whom all authority that was given to The Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il declared right standing in the highest court, the court of Eternal President Kim Il-Sung.

The Eternal President father created all created things. The Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il, the Eternal Presidents son, shares in the will and knowledge of the Eternal President. Only The Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il having both Eternal President Kim Il-Sung and Man natures is able to approach the Eternal President. All of humanity has fallen and is unable to return to his presence. Only those who the Eternal President has predetermined to give to The Dear Leader will be able to return.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:53:10 2010 No.1679891 >>1679880 also, it's tesatble, and usually pretty accurate

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 01:58:10 2010 No.1679921

>>1679849
I don't believe God punishes. In the OT it is presented in those terms, but think of the OT is a projection of reality onto a subspace that could be understood in such such simple terms, because such a revelation was necessary. I think hell is real state, but it is not about punishment.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:02:10 2010 No.1679948

>>1679921
I don't believe Eternal President Kim Il-Sung punishes. In the unrevised Korean history it is presented in those terms, but think of the unrevised Korean history is a projection of reality onto a subspace that could be understood in such such simple terms, because such a revelation was necessary. I think hell is real state, but it is not about punishment.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:03:10 2010 No.1679949 File: 84 KB, 500x376, 1282959392122.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1679921 >but think of the OT is a projection of reality onto a subspace...

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:04:10 2010 No.1679958

>>1679880
Yes, naturalism in general more easily grasped. It's a simpler world view. But then Newtonian Gravity offers the same advantages over General Relativity. Just like the latter makes us take a more challenging view of space and time, spiritual concepts make us set aside space and time from our thoughts altogether. They also have the disadvantage that they cannot be adequately encapsulated in human language. Hence the "poetry". But if these things reflect reality, we shouldn't let these difficulties deter us.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:07:10 2010 No.1679977

just one question to believers.

If you're not a believer, but you never had the chance (let's suppose you have been all your life on the wild, or perhaps your parents NEVER teached about the good deeds of awesomechrist).

It's your fault?
a) will god throw you in the hell?
or
b) will god allow you in heaven, as it was not your fault?

Let me explain you WHY god is bad either of the answers.

You're not forgiven:
you're punished for something that was really your fault. God is a jerk.

You're forgiven:
Then if everyone stopped worshiping god, no one would go to hell, as they would not have any fault.
God system is flawed.

Of course, there is no proof that goes doesn't exist.
But this is enough proof that he is not omnipotent(because he can't make a working system, or is somehow limited with something we don't know) or that he is not Good (because he put us in these situations)

To this point, i'm not sure if god exists or not, but i wish he didn't, he would be a jerk.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:07:10 2010 No.1679979

>>1679949
What I'm saying is that the it is a complete reflection of reality, but is expressed in terms that themselves conform to the comprehension of the ancient Hebrews. So to understand it's underlying meaning you have to look beyond the presentation.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:07:10 2010 No.1679980

>>1679958
Yes, non-Korean law in general more easily grasped. It's a simpler world view. But then Newtonian Gravity offers the same advantages over General Relativity. Just like the latter makes us take a more challenging view of space and time, North Korean Nationalist concepts make us set aside space and time from our thoughts altogether. They also have the disadvantage that they cannot be adequately encapsulated in human language. Hence the "poetry". But if these things reflect reality, we shouldn't let these difficulties deter us.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:08:10 2010 No.1679985 >>1679979 What I'm saying is that the it is a complete reflection of reality, but is expressed in terms that themselves conform to the comprehension of the ancient Koreans. So to understand it's underlying meaning you have to revise the history.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:09:10 2010 No.1679992

>>1679977
I don't believe either of the answers is true. Like the ancient Egyptians put it, judgment is like a weighing of the heart. It's not primarily about beliefs. You will be introduced to whatever truths you need after death. If you heart is light you will accept them; otherwise you will reject them.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:13:10 2010 No.1680009

>>1679992
I don't believe either of the answers is true. Like the Eternal President Kim Il-Sung put it, judgment is like a weighing of the stomach. It's not primarily about beliefs. You will be introduced to whatever battles you need until death. If your stomach is empty you will accept them; otherwise you will reject them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:16:10 2010 No.1680030 >>1680009 You're making yourself look like an asshole. It's not remotely funny.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:19:03 2010 No.1680048 >>1680030 Then stop trying to use religious arguments as proof. Use proof as proof instead. If I can just search and replace your argument and have one that applies just as well to North Korean Nationalism, you're barking up the wrong god.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:22:51 2010 No.1680057 >>1680048 Then stop trying to use North Korean arguments as proof. Use South Korea as proof instead. If I can just search and replace your Korea and have one that applies just as well to Japan, you're barking up the wrong China.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:23:10 2010 No.1680058 >>1680030 You're making religious arguments on /sci/. It's completely funny.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:23:10 2010 No.1680060

>>1679977
You would fit well with the Luciferian religions. They believe in God but are in spiritual warfare with him, wanting independence.

The length of your life is no right. You have no guarantee of anything. Since all of humanity is sinful, no one will get to heaven by his works or thoughts or deeds. Whether you are a baby, live in isolation, or any other circumstance, you are doomed to hell.

It is only by the grace of God that any will enter into the kingdom of heaven. To be saved you must believe and live your life based on what has been revealed to you. The salvation Jesus has imparted is once and for all time. It encompasses both past and future.

The Jewish people knew not of Jesus, but of a coming savior. What has been revealed by God is credited as righteousness to the individual.

The bible says that no man is without excuse for the truth of God. His work is evident in all of creation. We were born with innate sense for God.

How Jesus will judge is no something I know. Those with the law will be judged with the law. Those without the law will be judged without the law. Those with access to the information they needed for salvation will be judged accordingly. Those who were limited in this, will be judges as such.

I do not hold to the principle of free-will. Apart from the Father I say we have no free-will. To a finite mind, we seem to have free-will. It takes comparison to omniscience to limit our free-will. The father knew the outcome of all creation before he made us. The end has already been established.

The question you need to ask yourself is, do you wish to return to the light of love, to be reconciled with God? Or Do you want to live independent of God's will. To be separated from him. The only path to God is the path he provided for us. We can not be reconciled to God by our own way, or means.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:24:10 2010 No.1680069 >>1680058 What do you think /sci/ is for if not religious arguments?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:25:10 2010 No.1680073 >>1680069 Trolling them, duh.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:25:10 2010 No.1680074 >>1680030 You're making yourself look like a South Korean. It's not remotely funny.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:25:10 2010 No.1680075 >>1680058 I think you're just trying to mock arguments that you find threatening to your worldview, but don't have a response to.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:28:10 2010 No.1680089 >>1680060 See? is like i have been not readed at all. God is love, god is the path because some random book says so.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:30:10 2010 No.1680099 >>1680060 The problem is, THERE IS NOTHING REVEALED BY GOD. You need to see god, you can't believe a random man that gives you scriptures just because he says that he has the word of god.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:31:10 2010 No.1680102

>>1680060
You would fit well with the American religions. They believe in Kim Il-Sung but are in spiritual warfare with him, wanting independence.

The length of your life is no right. You have no guarantee of anything. Since all of humanity is sinful, no one will get to heaven by his works or thoughts or deeds. Whether you are a baby, live in isolation, or any other circumstance, you are doomed to hell.

It is only by the grace of Kim Il-Sung that any will enter into the kingdom of heaven. To be saved you must believe and live your life based on what has been revealed to you. The salvation The Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il has imparted is once and for all time. It encompasses both past and future.

The South Korean people knew not of The Dear Leader Kim Jong-Il, but of a coming savior. What has been revealed by Kim Il-Sung is credited as righteousness to the individual.

The North Korean Law says that no man is without excuse for the truth of Kim Il-Sung. His work is evident in all of creation. We were born with innate sense for Eternal President Kim Il-Sung.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:31:10 2010 No.1680106

>>1680060
How Kim Jong-Il will judge is no something I know. Those with the law will be judged with the law. Those without the law will be judged without the law. Those with access to the information they needed for salvation will be judged accordingly. Those who were limited in this, will be judges as such.

I do not hold to the principle of free-will. Apart from the Eternal President I say we have no free-will. To a finite mind, we seem to have free-will. It takes comparison to omniscience to limit our free-will. The Eternal President knew the outcome of all creation before he made us. The end has already been established.

The question you need to ask yourself is, do you wish to return to the light of love, to be reconciled with Eternal President Kim Il-Sung? Or Do you want to live independent of Eternal President Kim Il-Sung's will. To be separated from him. The only path to Eternal President Kim Il-Sung is the path he provided for us. We can not be reconciled to Eternal President Kim Il-Sung by our own way, or means.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:32:10 2010 No.1680109 >>1680099 And who says otherwise? People accept believe in a particular scripture because through it they experience a connection with God, not because some random person recommends it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:33:10 2010 No.1680113 >>1680075 No, this is my response. You don't deserve more effort to refute. It's obviously correct. You must convert to North Korean Nationalism.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:34:10 2010 No.1680119 >>1680109 And who says otherwise? People accept believe in a particular revision of history because through it they experience a connection with Eternal President Kim Il-Sung, not because some random person recommends it.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:35:10 2010 No.1680123 >>1680113 No, this is my France. You don't deserve more effort to refute. It's obviously correct. You must convert to homosex.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:35:10 2010 No.1680124

>>1680099
The truth can be experienced and known through internal knowledge. The bible is my foundation of inner-knowledge. Any proof or such things is only secondary to the reality of the truth I myself have experienced. The bible is an accurate depiction of that which God has revealed to individuals since the creation of man.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:35:10 2010 No.1680127 >>1680123 Exactly. Now you're getting it.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:37:10 2010 No.1680133

>>1680124
The truth can be experienced and known through internal knowledge. The North Korean History is my foundation of inner-knowledge. Any proof or such things is only secondary to the reality of the truth I myself have experienced. The North Korean History is an accurate depiction of that which Eternal President Kim Il-Sung has revealed to individuals since the creation of man.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:37:10 2010 No.1680136 >>1680127 Nicolas Sarkozy. Now you're gay.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:39:10 2010 No.1680143 >>1680124 This is precisely the part they don't get.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:40:42 2010 No.1680147 >>1680136 And you're a North Korean Nationalist. Debate's over. Christianity is disproved.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:52:18 2010 No.1680196 North Korea is Best Korea

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:55:10 2010 No.1680208 >>1680060 What are the Luciferian religions? You mean Satanism? and...

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:57:10 2010 No.1680215 JESUS CHRIST EVERYBODY!!! Jesus explicitly said that your sins are forgiven. You know what that means? You don't have to feel guilty about anything. WHAT IS THE PROBLEM WITH THAT?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 02:58:10 2010 No.1680222 >>1680215 Well, he said if you forgive others your sins will be forgiven. But I don't forgive others. I take full vengeance.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:01:10 2010 No.1680243 its very very simple. there is a god. Dental of this god will send you to hell. Enjoy hell you blind retards, i'll be up in heaven watching you bun. fucking idiots.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:02:10 2010 No.1680254

>>1680215
Jesus did not die for the sins of those not given to him by the father. He only died for the sins of those given to him by the father.

>>1680208
Mystery Babylon. The Illuminati, Catholicism, and other false religions are giving their worship to Lucifer, who is symbolized with the sun. Nordic, Pagan religions ect. With the New Age movement you are seeing the one world religion in opposition of God, who worship Lucifer emerge. It is a combination of all false religions.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:03:10 2010 No.1680261 >>1680243 >>Dental of this god will send you to hell. >>Dental of this god >>Dental what god are you talking about?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:04:10 2010 No.1680267 >>1680243 >dental

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:05:10 2010 No.1680272 >>1680261 The god of teeth, obviously, are you slow?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:06:10 2010 No.1680279 File: 18 KB, 435x206, GodsTeeth[1].jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1680243 >Dental of this god

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:07:10 2010 No.1680286 >>1680254 >Jesus did not die for the sins of those not given to him by the father. He only died for the sins of those given to him by the father. No idea what this means to me. I thought Jesus died because we killed him.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:08:10 2010 No.1680288 >>1680254 So you think Catholics want independence from God?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:08:10 2010 No.1680289 >>1680279 >>1680272 >>1680267 >>1680261 i meant denial you fucktards i thought that would be obvious its just a fucking typo go to hell.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:08:10 2010 No.1680290 >>1680286 It's a dumb christian dogma thing. Basically, somehow having jews nail jesus to a tree means that people who were magically floating in limbo can suddenly get into heaven.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:08:10 2010 No.1680291 But why do they call it a god when it doesn't exist?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:10:10 2010 No.1680302 File: 23 KB, 523x528, 1281938725679.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1680291

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:11:10 2010 No.1680314

>>1680288
The Catholic system, yes. Not all Catholics necessarily. Catholics have a works system for salvation which will not save. The Catholic system is run by secret societies to mislead the church, who worship Lucifer. The truth is out there for all people if they truly desire relationship with God.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:12:10 2010 No.1680319

>>1680290
whatever, forget that argument.

The whole point I was trying to make was that Jesus tells us, (and it is true because it is true, not because He said it) that we don't need to feel guilty for the bad things that we have done.

WHO HAS A PROBLEM WITH THAT? That's something everyone wants.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:13:10 2010 No.1680326 File: 9 KB, 214x235, images[1].jpg&amp.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1680319 I have a HUGE problem with that. Pic related, here's someone who doesn't feel guilty about raping your kids and killing cops.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:14:10 2010 No.1680328 Anyone that gets involved in these religious debates is a tool because you can't win.Ever heard the expression if you argue with idiots they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience? This applies here.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:14:10 2010 No.1680329 >>1678608 >inb4 "science vs religion thread" you mean "in after" right? cuz you just started it you stupid fuck

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:16:10 2010 No.1680333 >>1680326 So what? What's that got to do with you?

The Flying Dutchman☧ !wB724ctUVw Tue Aug 31 03:16:10 2010 No.1680335

>>1680254

>Catholicism

...really? Troll throttle in full with this one.

>>1680286

Okay, very simple, especially for you science folk-
1. God's kingdom of heaven is perfect. As in perfectly pure.
2. Humans sin by fucking up.
3. Sin separates you from God, because sin in unclean.
4. Man cannot bridge the gulf between himself and God.
5. The result of sin is death.
6. So God institutes a system, so that sacrifices can be made as a redemptive and atonal bridge to God.
7. God makes a promise to send the one true "bridge" to Him.
8. Jesus dies in our place for our sins, and makes it so that Man has a way to God

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:17:10 2010 No.1680340 >>1680326 Those glasses don't really go with the image he's trying to project.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:17:10 2010 No.1680343 File: 263 KB, 1600x1200, 1270990744087.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>1680333 Typical christfag, only thinking 'bout themselves and what effects their person ticket to teh havens.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:18:29 2010 No.1680346 But that means god created something that wasn't perfect! BURN HIM!

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:19:33 2010 No.1680348

>>1680319
This is not Christianity. Those who are in distress because of their sins and are repentance for the things they have done are the ones who believe. These people want reconciliation with God, but realize they have fallen, and are unable of themselves to gain salvation. They are the ones who know what it is Jesus has truly done for them. While we were yet sinners, God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son, so that he may die so that we could live.

He did not die for us to go on sinning, to gain wealth, power, or to feel good about ourselves. Jesus tells us to keep our eyes on the things of heaven while we go through the trial of life, not if we go through them. Suffering and pain and persecution are tools that refine the spirit of believers and strengthen their faith.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:21:18 2010 No.1680356

Hey, know what else is bad? Pride.

Because humans are so full of sin, we deserve whatever happens to us and any thought of improving our living conditions would be an affront to the natural order imposed by god, who, afterall, forbade humanity from gaining knowledge.

Because knowledge is eeeeviiiil.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:21:59 2010 No.1680362 There are at least 4 non-troll Christians in this threat atm. This must be a /sci/ record.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:22:42 2010 No.1680366

>>1680335
This is my problem with the bible.Being human is a sin punishable by burning in hell until the end of time.It sounds like some piece of shit made that up to control the populace at the time(who were very gullible back in those days) and has no place in modern times.

If god hates human nature so much why did he give human's impulses and free will?

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:24:09 2010 No.1680385

>>1680366
Because what you choose freely, and from reason, you become. By giving us free will he therefore gave us the ability to become goodness, which is part of him, part of the infinite. But this ability is inseparable from the ability to become evil. It's not about punishment. Becoming evil is what leads to the state of hell.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:24:47 2010 No.1680381

>>1680348
Look, the GOOD NEWS is that being freed from your sins frees you from a guilty conscience, not from your conscience.

WHO DOESN'T WANT TO STOP FEELING GUILTY? No one. Who wants to stop feeling guilty by doing the right thing? Not many people, but still

you make it sound like hell to these people, but it is called good news for a reason.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:26:33 2010 No.1680395 >>1680348 Furthermore, Jesus didn't die for anyone's sins. He said that everyone will have to carry their own cross, and die for his sake.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:27:35 2010 No.1680398

>>1680385
Hell wasn't about invented until the book of revelation.Before, death was referred to as the abyss.As in, nothingness.No demons sticking a pitchfork up your ass while you're boiling alive in lava, no, when you died you ceased to exist.The guy that wrote revelation was on a shroom trip.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:27:35 2010 No.1680399 >There are two core belief systems in the world; atheistic and theistic. Stopped reading there.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:29:03 2010 No.1680411

But why does god not reveal himself to all people in an irrefutable way, like on a live television program, and verified 100% able to break the laws of physics by the scientific community?

You know - so people will take him seriously and follow him? He does want that right? Or is god the Ultra-Troll?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:29:03 2010 No.1680413 >>1680398 The concept of hell existed since even before the OT was written. It's called by many names.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:30:06 2010 No.1680419

>>1680366
>If god hates human nature so much why did he give human's impulses and free will?

You want the explanation that deals with concepts inherent to Christianity? Then we would have to go into what you consider "free will."

You are born into sin, sin passed on by your father. Your father is a sinner, one of them.

But if you deny your lineage through your father, and instead accept that he is not really your father, you have a chance to save yourself. In other words, just because everyone else is doesn't mean you have to be.

And free will because any action based on compulsion isn't genuine.

>>	The Flying Dutchman☧ !wB724ctUVw Tue Aug 31 03:31:48 2010 No.1680421 >>1680411 Who's to say He doesn't and you choose to ignore it, or declare it an illusion?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:31:48 2010 No.1680422 >>1680411 Because if you're persuaded by external means it isn't likely to do anything for you. You have to recognize something within yourself, so that thing can transform you from within.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:34:35 2010 No.1680431

>>1680411
Furthermore, what if a being like that appeared and asked you to do things which you knew to be wrong? What then makes him God?

God is equivalent to Goodness. God is not a thing which has the characteristic of Good, God is the same as Goodness. Therefore, you will be able to know what is and isn't God by first finding out for yourself what the truth is.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:34:35 2010 No.1680432

>>1680413
Hell, hades, call it what you will but the "place after death for those god hates" wasn't invented until revelation by some drug addicted quack.Even martin luther had severe misgivings about the entire text.

Read the bible without preconceived religious conviction.Notice how out of place revelation is.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:34:57 2010 No.1680438 If god wanted people to believe in him, everyone would be christian. Omnipotence.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:35:00 2010 No.1680445 >>1680421 >>1680422 Christians prove nothing, as usual

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:37:06 2010 No.1680456

>>1680422
>self-evident truths are better
Here's a hint why you're wrong.

One could say that two plus two is always four. One might even say that humans can innately recognize numbers up to three or four based off of some pretty good psychological experiments.

But two plus two is ten in base four. And this is just as true as two plus two being four in base ten.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:37:45 2010 No.1680455

>>1680411
>Implying God has to reveal himself how you see fit.

If miracles were common place, they would just be scientific observations. MIRACLES ARE EVERYWHERE. That there is something, rather then nothing is a miracle. All of creation points to God, the creator. The proof is so obvious, and your heart is so hardened to the truth that you do not see.
The work of Jesus was completed at the cross. Until the last who will believe is saved, he will not return.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:40:54 2010 No.1680465

>>1680432
I guess you haven't read Luke 16:19–31.

The Hebrews were divided on the subject of the afterlife, but in other cultures the afterlife and hell is well established going back to the beginning of recorded history. In the Egyptian religion hell consists of Apep consuming your heart.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:42:21 2010 No.1680475 >>1680465 Not to mention that Jesus told many stories with allegories to some kind of suffering. >>1680432 I don't think Revelations is out of place.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:42:59 2010 No.1680474 >>1680456 >But two plus two is ten in base four. And this is just as true as two plus two being four in base ten. Wow. Major fail. Ten is always ten. In base four, 10 is four, not ten.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:44:23 2010 No.1680479 >>1680475 Right, Jesus told many stories ending with people being through into the "outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth".

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:44:23 2010 No.1680480 >>1680438 What kind of a God would be worth worshiping if he wanted anything?

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:49:21 2010 No.1680501

>>1680475
revelation was originally not even going to be included in the bible.That was a large debate in the early years of the church whether or not to consider it canon.They eventually chose to make it canon so they could control the people easier(what better way to control than to scare the shit out of them in life AND death?)

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:51:06 2010 No.1680507 >>1680480 If God exists then he has the entire universe at his disposal which is so large a human cannot possibly comprehend.What makes you think he gives a shit about man? inb4 mindless bible thumping

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:52:09 2010 No.1680511

>>1680501
When revelation was made regular part of the typical cannon, christians were still being killed in arenas by romans. It's kind of silly to say it was selected to control people. It was selected because John wrote it, and anything legitimately written by apostles was selected.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:53:51 2010 No.1680515 >>1680507 God is infinite. No detail is too small for him to give a shit about.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:56:21 2010 No.1680526

>>1680507
Well, I think that "not giving a shit about man" is a little harsh,
I'm just trying to draw the distinction between the way God actually is, and the way people perceive him.

After all, we're used to people WANTING things from us all the time, our parents for example. God is the perfect parent in that he wants nothing from us, but continually prods us to do the right thing. In other words, he isn't in it for any other reason than because its the right thing to do. (This is perhaps a more accurate description of the Holy Spirit within us, but because I find it difficult to talk with atheists about anything other than what their conception of God is, I used the word God.)

In other words, let us imagine that you have a perfect human father who is constantly and with infinite patience showing you what to do, how to be. It isn't that he "doesn't give a shit" about you, although, if, in the end, you choose to die without acknowledging what is right, it won't effect him. But in reality, he doesn't want anything from you, he is doing it because it is his duty to do it and he "enjoys" doing what is right.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:56:38 2010 No.1680524 >>1680515 What does this even mean..Get some real arguments bud and stop trying to appeal to faith.This is the /sci/ board and we have none.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 03:57:03 2010 No.1680530 >>1680524 What do you mean, what does it mean? An infinite being isn't limited in resources or attention capabilities.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:02:18 2010 No.1680547

>>1680526
God does not exist.God has never spoken with me, God has never appeared before me, God has never been captured on camera or proven in any legitimate scientific experiment.on the off chance he does exist, God does not interfere with the universe therefore why should we give a shit about him?

and hell are you kidding me? If human beings have laws against cruel and unusually punishment why doesn't God have them who supposedly has infinite wisdom? If God does not have infinite wisdom he cannot be called omniscient.If God does have infinite wisdom then he is more like a Devil and not worthy of worship.

I'm anticipating your replies

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:02:36 2010 No.1680545

>>1680501
Yes, I don't really know one way or the other. Personally, i believe that it is true, and not allegorical, but I don't know for certain. There are many things in the Bible that I have personally verified and understood from the first person, meaning, I have witnessed that they are true.

But as for John, I don't doubt that it is possible for revelations to be true, I just don't know.

I don't see what real effect it has either way. It doesn't really affect me, I think the Bible already has parts in it that point to a day of judgement, and there are several other parts of the bible that mention the antichrist. (As being ANYONE who doesn't believe that Jesus came in the flesh.)

Still, it is more intellectual for me than anything else.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:05:24 2010 No.1680557 >>1680547 God does have infinite wisdom, and he does interact with you. If you seriously try to understand the link you have with him you will eventually find it.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:09:57 2010 No.1680578

>>1680557
God does not interact with me or anyone else.All preachers are charletons that steal money from the gullible.My father used to give a third of his paycheck(he worked on a salary) to our local church and the preacher gladly accepted it.This preacher even took trips around the world to israel and other places at other peoples expense.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:10:21 2010 No.1680584 >>1680545 The catholic church is notorious for exploiting its followers.I personally believe revelation was written by a madman using The apostle John's name.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:13:09 2010 No.1680594

>>1680547
First, I didn't mention hell in that post, but I believe that it shows a deep misunderstanding if you think that hell is punishment.

I don't know that we should give a shit about him, but we should give a shit about ourselves and what is right. I don't really know what it means to give a shit about him. God will take care of God. It makes no sense to worship him, (although I did use the word worship earlier, as I didn't have a better word at the time)

So, all that being said, what should we give a shit about? If you are content with your life, then it isn't a really pressing matter. But if you search for what is true, it will invariably be found written in the Bible.

But seriously, what should we give a shit about?

Anyway, what you are essentially saying is that God doesn't touch our world, so why does it matter? If he does not touch our world, then certainly he can not be said to be real. So, what is real?

Concern yourself with whatever you want to concern yourself with, but you should prefer truth to lies. FIND OUT WHAT IS TRUE THEN.

The people who wrote the Bible had nothing. They started from scratch. If you want to find out what life is about, you too can start from scratch.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:18:03 2010 No.1680604

>>1680584
Meh.

Like I said, it doesn't really matter to me. Although, it is interesting that it seems to be a "self fulfilling prophecy" as many people, I'm not sure of how many, are either staunch believers in the armageddon, antichrist scenario, or at least know of it and have some fear of it.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:20:27 2010 No.1680607

>>1680594
You ask what should we be concerned about? We should be concerned about living our lives to the fullest without hurting others.Not wasting our lives living like poverty stricken retards(like it says to in the bible) so we MIGHT be able to get into heaven.Of course it would all be for nothing if heaven doesn't actually exist which means you wasted your life.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:22:33 2010 No.1680615 >>1680604 the guy who wrote revelation definitely had skill as a fear monger and manipulator.His revelation can basically apply to any era in history past present or future.He had great foresight.

The Flying Dutchman☧ !wB724ctUVw Tue Aug 31 04:24:21 2010 No.1680621

>>1680607

>Poverty stricken retards

Uh, WRONG

Joesph of Arimithea and Nicodemus were both rich Pharisees, before following Christ and were still rich. Anytime Jesus was talking negatively about the rich is when they put their money above God. Nothing wrong with being rich, as long as you hold God above money.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:28:51 2010 No.1680628 >>1680621 money doesn't buy happiness but it comes pretty damn close.Nothing worse than being a poor ass beta.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:30:36 2010 No.1680632

>>1680607
Alright, live your life to the fullest, no one is stopping you. Do you really need to know about heaven and hell in order to do what is right? But first you must determine what right is. As I said, this is where the characters in the Bible started. They had nothing to go on in the beginning but themselves. This is proof that you need nothing in order to discern the truth.

If anyone can know it, why not you? If no one can know it, find that out for yourself.

There is something that you must love above all other things. Truth, God, whatever. It should be obvious to you that you must favor It above anything else in order to get anywhere.

Anyway, don't worry. Merely hearing that such a thing exists will unravel a chain of events which you cannot control.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:32:25 2010 No.1680640 >>1680632 It is not a truth or fact unless it can be proven.Also I like how you threaten me with supernatural retribution, typical religious kids response when faced with logic.

The Flying Dutchman☧ !wB724ctUVw Tue Aug 31 04:33:25 2010 No.1680641

Fun fact, the author of Ecclesiates came up with this, after his years of indulgences, working, toil and pleasures-

Live your life to the fullest.

So that little "You're not living my life to the fullest because you're religious" argument can suck me dry.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:38:40 2010 No.1680652

>>1680640
>It is not a truth or fact unless it can be proven.
So find out what can be proven. Be objective.

Anyway, the point is that you don't have all the answers, and you think that they aren't in the Bible. So look for them elsewhere!

Anyway, who would need God if they had a problem they could fix by themselves?

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:39:04 2010 No.1680656

>>1680641
Hm... but I've heard reports that ecclesiastes is not exactly in its original state. He goes on and on about how life under the Sun is toil and whatnot, and then someone else threw in there "So drink wine, be happy, etc."

I'm not positive if there is a conclusive opinion on this, and I'm not sure what value it would be if there were one, but I remember reading that somewhere, and it never really left me.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:41:49 2010 No.1680659 >>1680652 Why would I believe a 2000 year old book based on jewish oral legends that had talking donkeys and talking snakes and borrowed HEAVILY from other ancient sources?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:44:58 2010 No.1680668 >>1680659 Why would you believe ANY book? If you are looking for something, LOOK for it. If you are not, then what need do you have for a God?

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:47:06 2010 No.1680676 >>1680668 Believing the bible is non-fiction is like asking someone to believe the lord of the rings is a factual account of the history of the earth.

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:48:10 2010 No.1680678

>>1680652
>So find out what can be proven.
Once you give up clinging like Descartes, you quickly find that really nothing can be proven without making certain assumptions.

Like your senses. Take a straw. You can perceive the straw to be straight by vision and touch. But stick that same straw in a glass of water, and the diffraction creates an optical illusion; the straw appears bent. Your sight can no longer be held as a completely reliable way of knowing the world. We can reconfirm our belief that the straw is straight, say, by touch, but all of the senses can be fooled. Or even entirely fabricated.

We experience the world through our senses. How, then, can we be sure we aren't just a brain in a vat with entirely false input being provided to us?

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:53:21 2010 No.1680687

>>1680678
Yes, what then? Does it mean that you cease to exist? No. But even so, what are you in that case?

In reality, this thinking changes nothing, the problem is still there and it is the same.

>>1680676
SO WHAT? How then will you live your life? If you are happy, then be happy.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 04:57:34 2010 No.1680706 >>1680687 Stop believing in fairy tales and stop coming on /sci/ trying to convince people to believe in them too.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 05:01:46 2010 No.1680712 >>1680222 to the maximum?

Anonymous Tue Aug 31 05:02:49 2010 No.1680715

>>1680687
>In reality, this thinking changes nothing, the problem is still there and it is the same.
Actually, it changes lots of things.

If I can't even prove that I'm, say, not a butterfly simply dreaming I'm me, how could I hope to prove that gravitation (under relativity) is a property of space-time, or that God exists or doesn't exist.

I'm not sure you even understand what I'm getting at, much less why it matters.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 05:04:34 2010 No.1680723 >>1680621 how remarkably convienient, the rich man's god loves the rich! I suppose god must prefer the rich to the par, that's why he gives so much to them.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 05:05:37 2010 No.1680727 I really want to believe God exists.But God was never there when I needed him most.This isn't a emo crybaby post because I'm a grown man.

>>	Anonymous Tue Aug 31 05:07:04 2010 No.1680730 >>1680727 I would be completely willing to disregard everything I know about science if god would just reply. Until he does, I'm an atheist.

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