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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1634200 No.1634200 [Reply] [Original]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=po0ZMfkSNxc&feature=PlayList&p=965C53D2B4BCCCF5&index=0&a
mp;playnext=1

Why can't we have more discussions like this /sci/? It seems so much more reasonable...

>> No.1634211

Why does Dawkins stand in all of his interviews? It's awkward. They're both standing there for an hour.

>> No.1634218

An Astrophysicist Priest?

>wtfamireading.jpg

>> No.1634239

is their a tl;dr for these videos?

>> No.1634261

For all the eloquence and soft spoken manners Dawkins ends up using the same arguments as in any other interview. Disappointing.

>> No.1634276

>>1634261
Hearing Dawkins talk about Theology is like hearing a Creationist talk about Science.

Makes me miss Bernard Shaw and H.G. Wells...

>> No.1634280

>>1634218
What, you're never heard of the Vatican observatory?

The blending of science and religion is absolute perfection regardless of the reasons, whether it be to dispute, refute, or combine either or both of the two into something more useful than either is alone.

And Dawkins is way past his prime, he's turned into a tired old man that just keeps repeating his position using the same arguments without care if they're right or wrong.

Dawkins has become a Republican Creationist.

>> No.1634293

>>1634280
You...you may be my favorite poster on /sci/

thank you...

>> No.1634316

>>1634280
wtf you talking about? Haven't you heard? Science =/= Religion

>> No.1634321

>>1634316
Those two are extremely intertwined and always will be.

>> No.1634323

>>1634321
no they won't.
religion is dying out exponentially.

>> No.1634326

>>1634321
So why is it on /sci/ its always Creationist Strawmen vs Enlightened Athiest?

>> No.1634338

>>1634276
I was saying that despite his pleasant disposition, Coyne's arguments for religion are as childish as any others I've heard watching Dawkins' interviews.

Dawkins doesn't use any new arguments because he doesn't have to. That's what I found disappointing.

>> No.1634339

>>1634323
haha...oh no...no

Maybe in Western Europe but it's spreading like Wildfire in Africa and SE Asia.

The Number of Catholics world wide increased to 1.13 Billion this past year, Islam this past year finally "overtook" the number of Catholics world wide.

For comparison's sake the global catholic population in the 1950's was roughly 500 million.

You could probably make a pretty hefty textbook of people who have "prophesied" that they were living in the era when Religion/Faith died.

>> No.1634340

>>1634316
>Scientology
But on a serious note Science wouldn't exist without religion, and religion* will never cease to exist regardless of the advancement of science.

*I do mean religion as a whole, not any individual religion, because let's face it, certain religions are either going to adapt in the next 25 years or their very means of existence will be squashed into something that resembles personal beliefs again; thus ending mass organisation started by certain churches.

>> No.1634345

>>1634338
I imagine Coyne feels the same way, its simply the same damn talking points that have been made ad-nasueam since the 18th Century. Nothing new has been brought to the table.

>> No.1634351

>>1634326
Because /sci/ prefers bashing religion to actual discussion regarding scientific topics.

>> No.1634360

>>1634339
that's only because population is increasing.

if you take raw % of religions, and don't count buddhism as a religion, atheism is on a huge rise.

>> No.1634361

>>1634351
It's a shame! I mean we could be discussing with people like this guy:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe5kVw9JsYI

but we choose to have a circle jerk over our own intellectual superiority over "the plebs"

>> No.1634366

>>1634339
>implying bribing niggers with food counts as conversion.
That's like Islam recruiting niggers in prison.

We can't rely on the swing believers that are niggers to count to one religion or another, they'll believe whatever gets drilled into them harder, or whatever gets them food, depending on their situation.

>> No.1634371

>>1634360
but you could make the same case at the dawn of the 20th or the dawn of the 19th Centuries. I mean i'm not disputing the claim that more people profess to be "Non-Religious" but I would say it isn't exactly unique in Human History

>> No.1634376

>>1634360
LMAO. If you count Evangelicals as Atheists, Atheism is even MORE on the rise.

>> No.1634379

>>1634376
Hell if you count Hinduism as Athiests, Athiesm is suddenly one of the largest "denominations".

>> No.1634381

>>1634218

The big bang theory was coined by a priest.

Learn your science, FFS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georges_Lema%C3%AEtre

>> No.1634384

>>1634381
HOW DARE YOU PROPOSE A DEVOUT RELIGIOUS MAN COULD CONTRIBUTE ANYTHING TO GLORIOUS SECULAR SCIENCE?

RJAGJDFJGAJGFAJGFA...

>> No.1634387

I don't want to be on this board anymore

>> No.1634391

>>1634381
>After the war, he studied physics and mathematics, and began to prepare for priesthood. He obtained his doctorate in 1920 with a thesis entitled l'Approximation des fonctions de plusieurs variables réelles (Approximation of functions of several real variables), written under the direction of Charles de la Vallée-Poussin. He was ordained a priest in 1923.

well...holy shit

>> No.1634392

>>1634384

Relax bro.

Hey, did you know about Mendelian genetics? The basis for all modern genetics?
That dude was a monk.

>> No.1634394

>>1634392
so why does /sci/ create this false dichotomy between Science and Religion?

>> No.1634397

>>1634381
Theories aren't coined, they're developed. Other than that, you're correct. In fact the Big Bang theory was shunned for decades because it was a creationist-sounding theory that came from a priest.

>> No.1634399

>>1634394
Because it's filled with children.

>> No.1634400

When you think about it, if humanity continues for the foreseeable future then religion is just going to end up as a completely abstract, cherry picked moral framework. There will always be people lagging behind the curve (oh shit, there are other universes? No I don't believe that, I can't understand it!).

Eventually, the specifics of it are going to lose relevance and subside and all that will be left is the common sense moral code we have anyway.

>> No.1634402

>>1634384

he named it big bang because he thought it would make the theory sound less scientific and people would denounce it. He didn't take into account that scientists are retarded and actually think the universe could be formed from a giant explosion out of nowhere

>> No.1634407

>>1634397
It's interesting isn't it, that the scientific community can be just as "dogmatic" as the much vilified religious community. Why I would wager that's an aspect of our own humanity and intellectual pride but that may be a stretch

>> No.1634413

See, all these "religious" clergymen-Scientists are Roman Catholics.

Catholics are less nutjob-like when it comes to Science. Doesn't stop them from being morally bankrupt sometimes, but they're certainly not the Southern Baptist "evilushun duznt exist" types. Far from it.

>> No.1634420

>>1634376
Buddhism may be a religion, but it is also technically an atheist belief as it denies, and/or involves no supreme being/"deity"/"God"

Which means you cannot count Buddhism as a religion. And if you do, you must also count it as atheism, because it IS an atheist spiritual philosophy.

>> No.1634423

>>1634413
So if they are also the majority why don't we deal with them more? The Southern Baptist Church (last time I checked) was a more regional group. The Catholic Church is a huge global institution with actual power.

Although I really have no beef with the Church, I went to Gonzaga and was thoroughly impressed with my Jesuit teachers.

>> No.1634424
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1634424

>>1634402
>he thinks the big bang was an explosion and not a slow expansion

>> No.1634429

>>1634420
Depends on the branch of Buddhism. I mean you still have things like "Nirvana" and other metaphysical assertions that go beyond the natural realm.

>> No.1634430

>>1634424
>slow
idonthinksotim.jpg

>> No.1634431

Oh please. The fact that a scientist made contributions to science and also happened to believe in God does not make the case for religion any better.

>> No.1634434
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1634434

>>1634424
>slow

>> No.1634435

>>1634430
ithinksotim.jpg

>> No.1634437
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1634437

>> No.1634440

>>1634429
To Buddhists, it's a spiritual heaven. To a scientist, it's simply a state of mind.

Either way, they don't have a deity, meaning you can count buddhism as atheism and as a religion.. or neither, it cancels out either way. At least when talking about world wide % of God believers.

>> No.1634443

>>1634423

Well that's because southern baptists are a loud group of idiots that should be ignored by everyone. Any rational person would arrive to this conclusion, except Americans who watch Fox News, apparently.

>> No.1634446

>>1634413
It's a pretty impressive list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_scientist-clerics

>>1634431

I don't think that's the point of this thread. It's mostly just the view that hey, not all religious are people who think the earth was only 6,000 years old and dinosaur bones are somehow planted by Satan. Hell even that view is a recent view, at the Scopes trial their was no mention of a young earth, the issue was entirely on Human Evolution and not the theory itself.

>> No.1634447

>>1634443
or /sci/ judging by the amount of Creationism threads on any given day...

>> No.1634455

>>1634440

Depends on what you mean by "Buddhists."

Buddhism as taught by the Buddha was not a religion. He also refused to get into metaphysics.

"Popular" Buddhism is a religion. There's prayer, etc. Tibetan Buddhism is even worse.

The Buddha's last words, in no particular order:

That was the most delicious meal I ever ate.

Do not pray to me when I die, for when I am gone, I really will be gone.

Be lamps unto yourselves; work out your own salvation with diligence.

>> No.1634456

As an Atheist, it's really making me think twice listening to the George guy. He seems rational concerning Genesis and mentioning the fact that it's not supposed to be taken literal, and that most things mentioned are impossible. He does make good points.

At the end of the day, a God is a plausible idea, after all, something must have created us. Then again you can argue what created God? Perhaps a God was here forever.

Either way, we can't know for sure, and when strictly sticking to the scientific method, God is not real and I will refuse to believe in such a thing. But this priest seems more of an agnostic than a catholic.

>> No.1634462

>>1634456
Nope, he's just espousing the Catholic purview. He has said nothing that Thomas Aquinas would raise an eyebrow at.

>> No.1634464

>>1634440
Actually when talking about % of world wide God believers, buddhists should be counted as non-believers.

Add that to modern statistics of atheists/agnostics (15-20%) and you'll get a good 30-35% of the modern world are non-believers in a God.

>> No.1634469

>>1634456
>this guy sounds like he's smarter than me. he's eloquent and knowledgeable
>see you at church

>> No.1634472
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1634472

The issue is that you have nations like China where they are officially Atheist (Much like the former USSR) and yet the NPR just recently posted a report saying the amount of Christians in China is growing exponentially.

I think the most secular nation in Europe is the Czech Republic.

>> No.1634478

>>1634456
Google him.

Look at the contributions he made to science.

Holy fucking shit. He studied in Harvard.

>> No.1634485

he's saying the same shit as every other christian, he's just better at it

>> No.1634487

>>1634478
See this list
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Roman_Catholic_scientist-clerics

he isn't exactly "Uncommon" from a Catholic View. Hell on the Colbert Report they had Fr. Guy Consolmagno S.J. who wrote this:
http://www.amazon.com/Heavens-Proclaim-Astronomy-Vatican/dp/1592766455

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guy_Consolmagno

>> No.1634490

>>1634472
God damn it.

Stop America from sending their fucking missionaries there. I know Chinese and I've watched a program documenting one of the missionaries. He converts whole villages (poor ones) and teaches them how to farm better and how to cook nutritional western food.

Just like that, a small village of about a hundred people gets converted. And a little while later, he has a banging hot Chinese wife.

Thousands of missionaries go to poor villages of China every month. That's more than 100,000 Christians a year, and that's not including other factors.

China seriously need to begin collecting America's debt. Poor people are too prone to converting religions.

>> No.1634492

>>1634487
>"Religion needs science to keep it away from superstition and keep it close to reality, to protect it from creationism, which at the end of the day is a kind of paganism - it's turning God into a nature god."

I think I like this guy...

>> No.1634493

>>1634490
How dare they aid suffering poor people. What asshats!

>> No.1634497

>>1634493
in reality, the only reason they even help them is to convert them easily.

>> No.1634498

>>1634490

No problem, it's state controlled, I don't think the Central Government would mind if they were eliminated or something. These types of people are despised by the richer proletariat populace who look at them with disdains as lowly, lazy, stupid. ignorant farmers.

>> No.1634503

>>1634498
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=128546334

It really is just the Plebs..

>> No.1634505

>>1634497
Well, you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

>> No.1634508

>>1634487
That's a pretty large fucking list.

>> No.1634509

>>1634472

I don't know man, Buddhists and Chinese Traditional Folklore aren't exactly religions.

If you sum it up, I think you still get about 35% considered as atheist/agnostic. I've seen people wearing American Flags as their style and adorning Islam and Christian ornaments as a fashion statement.

>> No.1634512

>>1634509
I would think that's more of a sign of increasing consumerism.

>> No.1634520

>>1634509
>>1634464
yep. about 35% of the world can easily be considered atheists/agnostics/don't give a shit

it's just in western american society it doesn't seem like it. + many people who are "i don't give a shit" or secretly agnostics don't want to say they are.

>> No.1634525

>>1634503

The poorest farmer does not have the luxury of owning a substantial business or have the ability to sublet to a willing/needy tenant.

In an inner-city State, the "rich" at the least, control the services industry, but at the very least, the limited asset of supply and distribution.

In depending on the persons' viewpoints, one can draw the conclusion that the farmers outside of the city-State are unwanted rodents exempt from the contractual One Child Policy.

>> No.1634526

Not a single pedo joke yet? wtf /sci/...

>> No.1634530

>>1634512

Well, wouldn't consumerism still be counter-intuitive to a supposed religion?

>> No.1634534

>>1634530
It would, although I think your even seeing some of the "mega churches" adopting a more consumerist ethic. Just look at Joel Olsteen or anyone on TBN. The Prosperity Gospel is basically Christianity if it was created by Nike and Coca-Cola.

>> No.1634540

>>1634512

Forgot to mention, especially when you're using everything in the most sacrilegious and un-patriotic way possible.

>> No.1634542

"I was having a conversation like this with a close friend of mine, you know, Carl Sagan, and I told him that my faith was a gift from God. He asked me, he said George, then why did you get this gift while I didn't?"

>> No.1634545

>>1634534

The new socialist republic, the state endorsed/sponsored "free" market; it is not "free," very much condones this as a valuable and necessary sacrifice for the stability and unity of the State.

>> No.1634550
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1634550

Young Dawkins is sexy.

>> No.1634553

>>1634542
One has to be receptive bro

>> No.1634561

It's true, Chinese traditional folklore isn't fucking religion.

They take folklore at face value; as stories.

If you go up to them and say " _______ doesn't exist ", they would lol at you. They know it doesn't exist, it's just a fairytale.

>> No.1634564

>>1634553
Receptive to hallucinations.

>> No.1634567

Dawkins is a fraud.

>> No.1634568

>>1634564
>>1634545
>>1634542

g'damnt, the Topic isn't over the existence of God, it's why don't we engage people who are of an intellectual bent rather then the lowest common denominator.

>> No.1634575

Something that irritates me about Dawkins is the way he thanks them whenever they fuck up in their reasoning. You can almost hear him laughing on the inside "thanks for that concession you retarded christian, that'll do on that topic."

>> No.1634576

>>1634568
Welcome to /troll/, enjoy your stay.

(/sci/ is the worst board on all of 4chan, you need to know this)

>> No.1634578

>>1634567
elaborate please. I haven't read any of his book, but I've watched some of his interviews.

>> No.1634579

>>1634568
Secret troll was secretive?

>> No.1634583

>>1634568
That was a quote from "someone of an intellectual bent" being engaged by someone else "of an intellectual bent" on the topic of religion. What more can you ask for?

>> No.1634586

>>1634503
>Christian dance
>Chinese undertone, I mean, look at what the fuck they're wearing

Religion is important to them because it gives them something to believe in, when times are gloomy and dark. I mean, 1.3 million people were displaced for the construction of the mega-structure Three Gorges Dam. They weren't compensated at all. The ones who were got shit.

If China didn't treat its citizens as shit, none of them would've turned to religion in hopes of a better future. The people fear death, and religion eases their fears.

tl;dr - STOP KEEPING THE PEOPLE DOWN.

>> No.1634587
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1634587

I don't know, I spouted stuff without actually watching the video, I only read peoples' comments.

lol

>> No.1634588

>>1634578
Dawkins is a great evolutionary biologist and an excellent author. You're being trolled. At any time on /sci/ there are maybe two people who give half a shit at all about science and reason, and ninety-eight people pulling shit out of their ass and slapping it into a post.

Seriously, /sci/ is *the most easily* (and frequently) trolled board on 4chan.

>> No.1634594

>>1634586
Instead of being a super mega #1 exporter, try to take care of your own citizens before booming economically overseas.

>> No.1634595

>>1634586
You seem to be implying religion is a bad thing, which would imply you hadn't read any of the links in this thread or watched the video at the top.

Way to go /sci/!

>> No.1634597

>>1634578
http://atheism-analyzed.blogspot.com/2008/11/dawkins-fraud.html

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3571996/the-truth-delusion-of-richard-dawkins.thtml

>> No.1634600
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1634600

>>1634586

Sup, cause China can.

>> No.1634609

>>1634597
Yep, let's just call him a "fraud" because he tries to use logic and reason to disprove our mystical sky wizard.

>> No.1634612

>>1634609
Did you even read those links?

Reading =/= Skimming

>> No.1634614
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1634614

http://www.religion-online.org/showbook.asp?title=2287

Ya'll /sci/ducks seriously need to read this. Changed my life, mang.

>> No.1634620

>>1634614
What an atrocious looking church, but huzzah yet ANOTHER Jesuit in this thread, this time Chardin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Teilhard_de_Chardin

>> No.1634621

So to summarize, George believes he will continue to exist after death (but doesn't believe in a soul), that God is superfluous (but intervenes from time to time to create miracles eg. freeing of us of sin) and criticizes religious people for always wanting to bring god into the picture (the same way he does). He's a smart guy obviously, but where is the internal consistency in all this?

Yes, he's a nice guy and I would take him over these fundamentalist nutcases any day but we are concerned about truth here.

>> No.1634623
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1634623

>>1634597
His resume/repertoire seems long and extensive. His rather overwhelming long list of publications and seemingly legitimate and exceptional awards appear to corroborate his supposed good stature. Of course this is notwithstanding my explicit and, sadly unintentional mishap of lack of hindsight or solid grip on the pertaining materials on this exquisite subject matter.

tl:dr I'm relying on you, anons.

>> No.1634629

>>1634621
http://www.firstthings.com/onthesquare/2006/06/sb-60206-the-rev-george-coyne

>> No.1634645

>>1634597

"One Less God:
This Atheist argument is known as the “one less god” argument, and it is called a Category Error Fallacy. A Category Error Fallacy is the ascription of incorrect characteristics to one of the objects of discussion (sort of like comparing apples and oranges). In this case it is ascribing “atheism” to a Christian’s non-belief in say, Zeus.

Atheism is most correctly described as being based in Philosophical Materialism, which is the denial of non-tangible, non-material realities. (While some Atheists deny this, none are able to refute it.) So the real comparison being made is between a Philosophical Materialist, and a Non-Philosophical Materialist. These are antithetical, they are opposites, and are not the same at all.

The Christian is in no way comparable to a Philosophical Materialist, who believes that nothing exists in any reality except that which is physically tangible. The Christian is most definitely a theist who believes in a rational creator for the rational universe - which creator is not Zeus.

The statement that Christians are “merely atheistic of all the same gods as atheists, except for one” is both incorrect and absurd. If it is confusing it is because of its basis in the Category Error Fallacy (also known in some quarters as the Mereological fallacy)."

This is some quality material.

>> No.1634648

>>1634645
Meh sounds reasonable to moi

>> No.1634651

>>1634645

Uhhh, anon, you're not helping, it's easier to write literature than to read this stuff.

>> No.1634654

>>1634651
Take a PHL-101 Class, it'll help.

>> No.1634661

>>1634645

The site reads like it was authored by an autistic child with an obsession for philosophical nomenclature.

>> No.1634671

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/3571996/the-truth-delusion-of-richard-dawkins.thtml

Notto disu shitto agen

I think everyone is just over-thinking things. It doesn't matter if Richard Dawkins' was defeated/cornered in an argument with Lennox.

The arguments are superficial and irrelevant. Scientific facts should be viewed through a framework with the least dogma as possible. Don't even say that viewing it in such a framework is flawed, just accept it and gather evidence for hypotheses/"theories."

Everything else is just a wild goose chase and an absurd obfuscation.

>> No.1634675

>>1634661
Have you read the Catechism or the Summa Theologicae? It's just how they talk! I just about had an anuerism trying to decipher Thomas Crean's "God Is No Delusion"
http://www.ignatiusinsight.com/features2008/tcrean_interview_feb08.asp

>> No.1634678

>>1634661
I agree.

>>1634675
Kinda' like the university textbooks that get crammed up my shithole every semester.

>> No.1634682

>>1634678
Or perhaps when arguing Philosophy and Metaphysics you tend to use the nomenclature.

>> No.1634689

>>1634682
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

No one can understand that shit! no one!.

>> No.1634693
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1634693

>>1634682

I never took philosophy, but some of my chemistry textbooks feel like they were written by some ass-pie.

>> No.1634697

>>1634693
It's just academia

>> No.1634720
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1634720

>>1634620
Jesuits weren't that bad, they introduced some astronomy and mathematics.

>> No.1634793

Is it true that all Jesuits know kung-fu?

I heard they can snap your neck in half anytime if they wanted to.

>> No.1634811

>>1634720
Just ask the Japanese! They were brutally suppressed by Tokugawa