/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.16063111]

>have to take calculus and learn how to solve irrelevant stuff like physics problems to pass it if I want to have a job as a programmer
What kind of retard decided that calculus should be mandatory for a CS degree? And then some schools even make you take actual physics classes on top of that. Is this all just some kind of elaborate scam to keep you in college longer to make more money off of you while teaching you irrelevant things you will never need to know in your career?

[Anonymous No.16063115]

>>16063111
it's all just a meme. if you can write an if-clause and a for-statement you're ready to go. computers are fast enough nowadays.

[Anonymous No.16063164]

>>16063111
CS is a branch of mathematics you retarded undergrad faggot

[Anonymous No.16063234]

If you can learn one (1) "hard" topic you can prove yourself and others you may actually learn much more. Basically a brainlet filter. Be a faggot about it and stay filtered and left behind. Else, stand out among your peers and become a gigabrain chad

[Anonymous No.16063246]

>>16063111
Taking calculus (particularly integral calculus), physics, engineering, etc. is more about developing problem-solving and critical thinking skills. Developing an intuition for being able to identify the appropriate tool to solve the problem you're presented with the in an efficient and effective manner. Same goes for most of the non-major classes that get thrown at you in these STEM-adjacent majors.

[Anonymous No.16063260]

>>16063111
To filter petulant babies like you who think downloading mods on minecraft makes them a programmer

[Anonymous No.16063272]

>>16063164
>>16063115
>>16063111
Its true, programmers dont need to study physics. Also dont need to study chemistry, or geology, for some reason physics is always forced like its more critical/
A normal programmer doesnt need to know any math. Its really a waste of time.
>branch of mathematics
what branch and who cares? Who decides these things?
No one uses math in computer science except the people that make computer simulations. Its a dying field anyway, becoming commoditized with zero innovation. The real value in computers today (as a business) is creating content to sell ads, i.e the public TV business model, its now a branch of the entertainment industry.

[Anonymous No.16063290]

>>16063272
>programmers dont need to study physics
Depends on what you want to program.
If you're a UI code monkey or something similar you're on the wrong board.

[Anonymous No.16063296]

>>16063290
>Depends on what you want to program.
No program requires physics unless its explicitly a physics simulator or a scientific calculation of some sort, but those can be done by programmer-physicists collaborations.

[Anonymous No.16063303]

>>16063290
>If you're a UI code monkey or something similar you're on the wrong board.
eh, don't you dare speak bad about what I do for a living.

[Anonymous No.16063305]

>>16063303
Lol. Das racis

[Anonymous No.16063306]

>>16063303
(He keeps special ones to himself)

[Anonymous No.16063321]

>>16063272
>A normal programmer doesnt need to know any math
If by a "normal programmer" you mean a Pajeet, then sure. Competent Western programmers routinely use their understanding of computational complexity for everything, communication complexity for nearly everything, and things like the theory of queue networks for understanding and designing server farms and high-workload — software. Queueing theory is applied to singular computers too, see models of UNIX process lifetimes or the resources it takes to serve a stream of clients. All of this has real analysis as a prerequisite.

- http://dimacs.rutgers.edu/~graham/ssbd.html
- https://www.cs.cmu.edu/~harchol/PerformanceModeling/book.html

[Anonymous No.16063329]

>>16063321
>Competent Western programmers routinely use their understanding of computational complexity for everything, communication complexity for nearly everything, and things like the theory of queue networks for understanding and designing server farms and high-workload — software. Queueing theory is applied to singular computers too,
Cool but this isnt physics or mathematics

[Anonymous No.16063332]

>>16063111
Two semesters of graduate real analysis should be mandatory to be a coder no matter what. We need to weed out as many brainlets as possible.

[Anonymous No.16063335]

>>16063332
Can't teach an old dog new tricks.

[Anonymous No.16063337]

>>16063332
>We need to weed out as many brainlets as possible.
why?
People pay for programming classes, why do you need to filter them?
Free state universities filter people with admission tests, why do you need another filter? If they are bad at programming they just fail their tests.

[Anonymous No.16063338]

Are you suggesting I stop for poor existential. Hmph. Maybe I will.

[Anonymous No.16063340]

>>16063338
And I am now instead writing a knowledge book for Governments to buy?

[Anonymous No.16063344]

>>16063337
because coding is already oversaturated as it is. This is exactly what cooperations want so you can give them 10 miles and receive a cookie in return. It's simply supply and demand.

[Anonymous No.16063345]

>>16063111
>why do I have to learn things that aren't immediately relevant to my desired career?
Because you didn't sign up for a vocational program, or on-the-job training from your future employer. You enrolled in university, for a Bachelor of Science degree, so the expectation is that you're going to broaden your horizons a bit and maybe even learn something about math and science.
Unfortunately, many employers now treat university degrees as a necessary credential for new hires, so universities are flooded with people who are just there for a job and have no interest in knowing anything.

[Anonymous No.16063369]

>>16063329
You're more than a little bit retarded. Real analysis, probability theory, and mathematical optimization are mathematics. The topics listed — analysis of algorithms, queueing theory — are essentially that, with a pinch of domain specifics.

[Anonymous No.16063374]

>>16063246
Jesus fucking christ, imagine being the person who wrote this post.

[Anonymous No.16063409]

>>16063296
Fart on me not near me fart of me fart with me

[Anonymous No.16063438]

>>16063369
>. Real analysis, probability theory, and mathematical optimization are mathematics
none of that is programming

[Anonymous No.16063442]

>>16063296
I ought to add, King Terry tried to have such a collaboration with physics girl

[Anonymous No.16063457]

>>16063111
Be glad you are not an Europoverty, because here the calculus is upgraded to real analysis for a CS degree.
Pretty sure this only to filter out all the Sirs.

[Anonymous No.16063462]

>>16063246
>Taking calculus (particularly integral calculus), physics, engineering, etc. is more about
Filler

[Anonymous No.16063472]

>>16063457
Why do europeans get paid so little compared to americans if the bar is so much higher there?

[Anonymous No.16063478]

>>16063472
tell me why you think abusing students implies paying them more after they graduate
Just wheres the logic? It must be an innate sense of cosmic balance, more suffering=more bettering?
Typical slave morality

[Anonymous No.16063480]

>>16063478
Well if it's so difficult to get a CS degree then there must be a shortage of programmers in europe and so their salaries should be higher.

[Anonymous No.16063494]

>>16063480
>Well if it's so difficult to get a CS degree then there must be a shortage of programmers in europe and so their salaries should be higher.
Its a very weak effect. The supply isnt controlled by how hard the degree is, but by how many students get admitted.

[Anonymous No.16063502]

>>16063438
>A normal programmer doesn't need to know any math
>>Competent programmers need to know real analysis, probability, optimization
>none of that is programming

[Anonymous No.16063505]

>>16063502
>Competent programmers need to know real analysis, probability, optimization
this is just not true

[Anonymous No.16063507]

>>16063272
You are outrageously wrong, and stupid anon. You will genuinely be an awful programmer and no one should hire you.

[Anonymous No.16063511]

>>16063505
Which part of >>16063321 did you fail to read?

[Anonymous No.16063513]

>>16063511
>>16063507
I read it and i respond that its just not true.
You are just forcing this idea that programmers need to know math and you argue with word salads. No one is impressed by it.

[Anonymous No.16063517]

>>16063111
If you don't plan on using calculus in your future employment, why even go to college for cs? Why not just become a successful web developer now?

[Anonymous No.16063526]

Its an IQ test, hate to break it to you but you failed

[Anonymous No.16063527]

>>16063321
and this is why I see my self-taught programmer friends finish projects on their own within month that teams of cs-degrees-holders need two years for.
you're all up your asses with bullshit considerations real programmers do not even know have a name because they are so fucking obvious.

[Anonymous No.16063532]

>>16063513
Not the previous poster, but you are fucking stupid and you're going to be a horrible programmer. Anything serious, is going to require understanding stats and probability at the very minimum. Say your boss wants you to implement an RSA security protocol for a piece of communication software you're building, are you going to tell him you don't know how modular manipulation works? You're legitimately just really stupid and arrogant.

[Anonymous No.16063535]

>>16063374
Modern students are so lacking in critical thinking skills it's horrifying. They can't solve any problem they aren't handheld through and they deem anything that isn't a very specific skill applicable to their very specific field, or a very specific answer to their very specific question as irrelevant and filler.

No wonder they're all so fucking hopeless.

[Anonymous No.16063538]

>>16063532
>. Anything serious, is going to require understanding stats and probability at the very minimum.
Bullshit
Probability? Like chances of getting tails or heads when flipping a coin? Lmao

[Anonymous No.16063541]

>>16063111
Uni doesn't exist to shit out code monkeys.

[Anonymous No.16063542]

>>16063532
The same "programmers" who think their education should consist of learning nothing but how to brute force code phone apps are the same "programmers" who are outraged that their jobs are going to be among the first to be fully replaced by fucking AI.

[Anonymous No.16063543]

>>16063532
>Say your boss wants you to implement an RSA security protocol for a piece of communication software you're building, are you going to tell him you don't know how modular manipulation works?
You dont need to know any math to do this. The math is already "built in" the libraries.

[Anonymous No.16063552]

>>16063538
>>16063543
I really think you ought to change your degree, communications seems more your speed.

[Anonymous No.16063554]

>>16063543
>The math is already "built in" the libraries.
Understanding how those built-in functions actually work or arrive at their results is often important. Least of all because understanding how they work informs you whether it is an appropriate or inappropriate method for doing what you're trying to do.

[Anonymous No.16063557]

>>16063554
>Understanding how those built-in functions actually work or arrive at their results is often important
Nice idealism but it isnt useful in practice
>>16063552
Not an argument

[Anonymous No.16063573]

>>16063557
I know you're trolling anon, but you're also most likely a terrible programmer. Seriously, link a single piece of work you've written. Show me your Github, or shut the fuck up.

[Anonymous No.16063581]

>>16063527
We aren't talking about Pajeet projects. We're talking about load-bearing systems that competent programmers design. Distributed algorithms in use at e.g. Amazon even have to be formally verified.

[Anonymous No.16063583]

>>16063557
>Nice idealism but it isnt useful in practice
Sure, until you inevitably end up with some broken code spitting out unusable results because you're trying to use some library function that's completely inappropriate for what you're trying to do.

I'll bet you're the type of person who'd try to fix a watch with a hammer.

[Anonymous No.16063586]

>>16063557
>Nice idealism but it isnt useful in practice
>uses the default hash function in a language hashmap implementation and wonders why it takes ages

[Anonymous No.16063595]

>>16063581
yah, you all suck you soul-less bureaucratic robots. Big corps suck and their products always come out underwhelming. Guess why that is? Because of people like you. You have no soul.

[Anonymous No.16063612]

>calculus
>differential equations
>linear algebra
>geometry
>physics
>mathematical logic
>complex analysis
>discrete math
It's my second year studying "programming" and so far we've had these math subjects in the curriculum. Granted, most of them will end by the end of this semester and on the 3rd-4th year it'll be mostly programming, but i'm curious, is this math-heavy experience during first years of studying comsci common in other countries as well or is it a relic of soviet STEM education which was always math-heavy regardless of specialty? I am from Russi

[Anonymous No.16063614]

>>16063612
russia*

[Anonymous No.16063624]

>>16063595
>>serving hundreds of millions of people with acceptable performance and practically no downtime
>underwhelming
Pajeet can't into correctness and scale.

[Anonymous No.16063628]

>>16063624
This whole thread reeks of curry.

[Anonymous No.16063659]

>>16063612
>>16063614
The US has roughly 4,000 (four thousand) degree-granting вyзы. Students in Russia learn far less math than US students do, when you compare вyзы in similar academic percentiles. Programming majors at the MГУ, MГTУ, MФTИ or even BШЭ learn less math and less modern math than students at comparable US institutions, the likes of Stanford or MIT. Students at тeхникyмaх and кoллeджaх also learn less than US community college attendees. You compare first-rate Russian institutions and second-rate US institutions, this isn't correct to do.

[Anonymous No.16064284]

>>16063111
if you're not there to learn, why even bother with the degree at that point? go off and make your fortune, op.

[Anonymous No.16064497]

>>16063595
We suck because we think you ought to actually be competent in your field? Fuckin neck yourself fag.

[Anonymous No.16064512]

>>16064497
no. you suck because when it comes to practicing your field you all underperform.

[Anonymous No.16064551]

>>16063628
I'm not an Indian, but I find it funny that people here criticize bad coders who are adverse to math for being Pajeet-like when Indian people usually have to learn a lot more math and physics just to get into university than Westerners do, and often end up getting into postgrad programs in high-ranking Western universities like MIT, Oxford, and LMU simply because of how obsessed they are with standing out above the crowd. Pajeets can and will learn anything you make them learn. The only people who shudder at the thought of learning math are spoiled middle-class kids from Western countries who think higher education is an obligation rather than a privilege.

That and also niggers.

[Anonymous No.16064566]

>>16064551
>Indian people usually
No, you dumb poo-poo nugget. There are 1.2 billion of them. The ones who get into MIT aren't the Pajeets here, they're Tamil Brahmins sitting on top of a billion of SC/ST/OBC. These latter are the Pajeets who remain in Bangalore and have been or are an ass hair's close being to made obsolete by today's LLMs.

[Anonymous No.16064592]

>>16063329
>too retarded to understand math is a tool not the mean
Go back to coding UI, monkey I need another div here

[Anonymous No.16064598]

>>16064551
>Indian people usually have to learn a lot more math and physics just to get into university than Westerners do
We've had three Indian grad students at my department in as many years, and they've all been dumb as posts. Every single one has ended up flunking out of the program.

[Anonymous No.16064646]

>>16063583
>>16063573
These are not arguments, these are just insults. You cant really defend your idiotic ideas so all you can do is say "well, you dont agree with me so all you do must be retarded". You are tacitly agreeing with me by being unable to defend your argument on its own merits.
Programmers need to know elementary logic and, best case, knowledge of number theory if they are attempting to write libraries that deal with security and cryptography. This still means they have zero need for real analysis, unless they are specifically doing mathematical calculations.
How many programmers actually need to do that? One in 1000? And these kinds of things are just something for niche specialists, meaning they should be learned in post-graduate degrees or as elective subjects, and are not something mainstream programmers need to know as a core competence, and likely should be done in collaboration with mathematicians at research institutes or companies with deep pockets like google.
It could be useful for programmers to have an extremely shallow base of mathematics just to know who to call in case they face some mathematical problem, i.e a mathematician or a highly specialized programmer. This wont be ever needed for over 99% of programmers.

[Anonymous No.16064879]

>>16063624
You know how else you can serve hundreds of millions of users with no downtime? By writing software that runs locally on their computer. I can do that on my own without the backing of a corporation. There’s nothing noble about devoting your career to tricking users into switching from local software to unnecessary web apps and subscription services running on “the cloud” just so a trillion dollar corporation can make even bigger profits for their investors next quarter.

[Anonymous No.16064889]

>>16063624
>>serving hundreds of millions of people with acceptable performance and practically no downtime
this isnt a challenge for a person.
You seem to think the software industry is just one person that will destroy the internet because he never studied dedekind cuts

[Anonymous No.16065422]

>>16064879
>Too dumb to understand his own fallacies
t. brainlet : my user can play pacman on their local computer, I'm serving millions of using with no downtime!

[Anonymous No.16065526]

>>16063111
i think the idea is you're going to write programs that calculate stuff, so you need to understand how the calculations work?
imagine you apply for a job at spacex and you don't even know what space is? they're not gonna take the time to explain it to you
i mean you don't have to know english to write code either, but you still need it to actually work a job if you're in an english speaking country

[Anonymous No.16065640]

>>16063272
>A normal programmer doesnt need to know any math.
A programmer needs to think algorithmically, so they absolutely do need a strong maths foundation.

[Anonymous No.16065853]

>>16065422
The point is that 90% of software doesn’t need to run in the cloud and only does so companies can scam people with subscription fees. All that infrastructure work to scale these services is useless towards the ultimate goal of delivering a good product that benefits users.

[Anonymous No.16065955]

>>16063532
>>16063532
I'll just make websites. Frontend

[Anonymous No.16065956]

>>16065853
If you app doesn't have any traffic then don't use cloud?
I don't get your point, if you want to deploy large scale and multiregion without cloud you're just adding layers of complexities. Sure, you can rent directly from data centers, setup your own monitoring tools with alerts, data storage, rbac etc but at the end of the day you have to maintain all those, you might save some bucks if your company is MAANG but if not you're just reinventing the wheel. Maybe you've just never worked on large scale that's the problem.

[Anonymous No.16065961]

>>16063541
True, we have boot camps for that

[Anonymous No.16065965]

>>16065956
>you might save some bucks if your company is MAANG but if not you're just reinventing the wheel. Maybe you've just never worked on large scale that's the problem.
i would bet there are benefits to owning the infrastructure yourself

[Anonymous No.16065980]

>>16064646
>real analysis
Literally no university in the world makes computer science majors take a real analysis course on par in difficulty with what math majors have to take. At most, they just have to take like 2 or 3 calculus courses so they can prove they're not mentally retarded potheads, and in return they get some intuition for how shit like optimization and gradients work.
Don't be surprised whenever you see physics and electrical engineering grads hogging up all the embedded systems programming jobs, or economics and industrial engineering grads hogging up all the data science jobs that were originally meant for CSfags. It's because you people are so unwilling to put effort into learning more math than the average convenience store cashier that you make yourselves unfit for jobs you're literally being groomed for.

[Anonymous No.16066104]

>>16065980
>Literally no university in the world makes computer science majors take a real analysis course on par in difficulty with what math majors have to take.
Some in Germany do.

[Anonymous No.16066261]

>>16063612
No you don't study "programming" at uni, any rando can do that after a bootcamp.
You grind your way to become a developer, or a computer scientist. I myself had to backpedal for calc, alge and even physics(mostly waves and optics) to get into AI and HMI.
>t. codecel from vietnam

[Anonymous No.16066282]

>>16063115
Getting a CS degree is different from being trained to be a code monkey like you.

[Anonymous No.16066284]

>>16063272

[Anonymous No.16066304]

>>16066284