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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1597164 No.1597164 [Reply] [Original]

How far can gravity reach?

Is there an upper limit on the distance at which gravity can act? I expect that for the larger distances we've observed, Newton's law of gravitation basically holds. But is there any reason to believe that their could be a limit?

I'm not asking about the time it takes gravity to act at a distance. Assume, for the question, an infinite universe and an infinite amount of time.

It's a naive question, I guess. I imagine that photons, unhindered, can travel forever. But as gravity is a binding force of sorts, I imagine a sort of tension between a mass and the graviton (or whatever type of particle transmits the attraction). Does this tension continuously approach zero at infinite distance, or is there a cutoff of sorts?

>> No.1597167

There's no cutoff. Gravity has infinite range, in both the Newtonian and Einsteinian model.

>> No.1597168

>>1597167

I don't even care if you're right or not, fuck off tripfag.

>> No.1597173

Well seeing has how galaxies hold together, but galactic clusters drift apart...

I'd say there's a point where it doesnt quite effect powerfully enough to be reasonably considered

>> No.1597183

>>1597167

>There's no cutoff. Gravity has infinite range
>Gravity has infinite range
>infinite range
>infinite

See the problem here?

>> No.1597184

The force of gravity weakens the further we are from the Earth. But as we escape the earth we get closer to other large masses (other planets) and so the attraction to those planets "increases". So I suppose you could say there's a limit on the attraction to Earth, but gravity always affects us. That gravity is a force that keeps you on the ground is just a social construct -- it depends on the mass of the object. The Earth pulls us down because it is so large.

>> No.1597186

>>1597168

Why the hate? he actually contributes to this board.

>> No.1597190

>>1597183 See the problem here?
Nope. Why is infinite range a problem?

>> No.1597192

There is no upper limit, there has been speculation that at really huge distances it acts in a repulsive way to explain the exansion of the universe but we just say that's dark energy now and it tidies things up.

Gravity works at the speed of light.

Over short distances there's really no proper explaination of gravity (we're talking quantum level) and hence it's irreconcilable with QM :(

>> No.1597201

>>1597190

Its a conceptual issue. Infinity is not a distance, and there is no such thing as infinite distance.

>> No.1597202

>>1597173
The local clusters keep together due to the geodesic motion of it's constituents, while the drifting apart is caused by the expansion of the spacetime itself. But both is described by Einsteins theory of gravity.

>> No.1597203

>>1597201
you best be trolling nigga

>> No.1597206

>>1597201

Except that since it never stops acting on object no matter how far apart they are you do usually say that it can act over infinite distance, or if you want to be picky it works at unlimited range

>> No.1597209

>>1597201
Nope Josef, don't start discussing some "hey I've had this amazing philosophical thought in the shower when I was 15" topic .........

>> No.1597210
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1597210

This thread will now be hijacked by tripfags.

>> No.1597214
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1597214

>>1597210
Also, bitches don't know 'bout mah Inverse-square law.

>> No.1597215

OP here again. So does the means of transmitting the force have zero effective connection to the originating mass? Let's say it's a graviton, for the moment. Is the force that it exerts on a body determined only by the graviton's direction of travel? (i.e. the existence of the originating mass has no effect once the graviton has departed?)

>> No.1597222

>>1597215
We don't know yet.

>> No.1597227

>>1597201
There's a difference between "actual infinity" and "ongoing infinity", the latter being a very real concept and simply meaning "never stopping", while the first one is more of a mathematical concept which isn't really relevant to real world issues anyway.
(But a very convenient concept to have in set theory, nevertheless.)

>> No.1597228

>>1597215

Distance is key, the further apart the two masses are teh less the effect will be, as was said it's an inverse square law.

e.g. you m1 and m2 are 1 meter apart they experience a force of 1 newton. move them 2 meters apart the experience 1/4 newtons since the distance is double the force is divided by 2^2

>> No.1597231
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1597231

>>1597210

Fuck yea!

>> No.1597234

>>1597215
As far as we know, yes. For example, should the Sun suddenly disappear (however this may come to be), it would take about 7min until earth would stop circling it, as it would take 7min until we won't see it anymore.

>> No.1597235

>>1597215

As far as we know now, yes the graviton is independent of the original mass one emitted.

That being said, it is very difficult to test this sort of thing. I suppose what you're asking can be thought of in this way:

Suppose you have a planet-sized object. It exerts a gravitational force on all other mass in the universe.
The speed of propagation for the force is the speed of light, so it would take billions of years for the force to exert itself on distant galaxies.
Suppose you split the planet up into trillions of pieces and separated them by a great deal. does the force stay the same for the distant galaxies?

Yes it would, according to our current understanding.

>> No.1597238
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1597238

>>1597164

>> No.1597241

>>1597228
I imagined that distance was irrelevant when it came to individual gravitons. Like light. The brightness of a surface further from a source is not less because the photons striking it have less energy, but because less photons are striking it.

>> No.1597242

>>1597234

Maybe it disappears due to your fictional infinite distance.

>> No.1597247

There is a cut off and it is the same as the observable universe. gravity travels at the speed of light so once the expantion exceeds the speed of light the two places in the universe are cut off forever.

>> No.1597250

what have we seen to illustrate the infinite rage?
Is our sun having a measurable tug on a distant galaxy?

>> No.1597258

Assuming that gravity cannot propagate faster than the speed of light in a vaccuum, the cutoff range of gravity is the same as light, or about 14 billion light years. Past this distance, the expansion of the universe is so great that the gravitational field of on object at one end of this distance will never reach space at the other end,

>> No.1597260

Gravity reaches as far as Uranus

>> No.1597261

>>1597234
perception of the event and the actual OCCURRENCE of the event aren't the same thing.
If the Sun were to blink out, the Earth wouldn't be circling it anymore IMMEDIATELY regardless of if we saw the Sun disappear 7 minutes after the fact.

>> No.1597273

>>1597235

So every single thing with mass is shooting these magical "gravitons" at every other thing with mass? Every atom, every proton, every neutron, etc? And with that absurd amount of gravitons flying in every direction scientists can't even find a single one? lol science, you guys are fucking stupid

>> No.1597274

>>1597261
No. The Earth would keep moving on its orbit until enough time elapsed for gravity to notice the Sun is not around anymore.

Unless you were arguing semantics and saying that it can't circle the Sun because there is no Sun to circle.

>> No.1597275

>>1597261
According to special relativity, that is false. Prove Einstein wrong.

>> No.1597278

>>1597261

Well regardless of how you define "circling", the motion of the earth would by not deviate from its prior trajectory for about 7 minutes. Its motion through space would be absolutely unchanged during that time.

>> No.1597289

>>1597274
If the Sun were to suddenly disappear (not implode or move...just blink away), we would be flung out of our ellipse immediately. It's not like how a cartoon, upon walking off a cliff, has to look down before he falls.

>> No.1597298

>>1597289
>FTL propagation of information in a non quantum entangled system

>laughingscientists.xls

>> No.1597301

>>1597289

Umm no, can't you read? Gravity has infinite range, because because of the law of conservation the mass of the sun would still be somewhere in our universe affecting the earth with gravity. Because it has infinite range. The Earth will just change direction to circle the new location of the sun.

>> No.1597303

>>1597289

Why do you find it so hard to believe that the force of gravity propagates at a finite speed? Surely you don't believe such instantaneous fairytales in regards to the EM force? Why would gravity be any different?

No information can travel faster than light.

>> No.1597304

>>1597273
We don't have a working theory of gravitons, that's just some formulation the OP uses. All the particles come from quantizing their respective fields but we can't quantize GR so no graviton.

(Yes I know that one can argue that a tensor field would give raise to a spin-2 particle but there is, as far as I know, no actual calculation in the case of GR yet.)

>> No.1597305

>>1597303

Gravity is not information you dumb faggot, you can't write it down in a book

>> No.1597313

>>1597301
>>1597305
Thanks, adding your tripcode to block list.

>> No.1597315

>>1597305

> I don't understand the meaning of information in physics.

>> No.1597318

>>1597305
Wow, I actually fell for your trolling...
But would you be so kind to stop? You are confusing those that don't really have a clue how modern physics work...

>> No.1597320

>>1597313

You're welcome

>> No.1597321

>>1597305
this must be that infinite range hurr guy.

>> No.1597323

>>1597301
My god.
You're trying to apply a law to something that is utterly hypothetical. If the Sun were to VANISH. GONE. No LONGER EXISTS.
Conservation of mass has nothing to do with that.

>> No.1597329

>>1597247
I anticipated that answer, and I reckon you're right. But it avoids what I were truly trying to ask.

>>1597235
That makes some sense to me, thanks.


I suppose I should have anticipated the disappearing sun tangent.

Essentially, what I was getting at is this: Our descriptions of fundamental forces change or fall apart as we are able to observe smaller and smaller scales. Could they also fall apart at as yet unobserved very great scales? Will our future understanding of the forces be limited only to how small we can see, not how far we can see? (I realize this sounds a little flighty. That's why I phrased it using gravity as an example, to make it a bit more concrete.)

>> No.1597331

>>1597323
My god.
You're getting trolled. Hard. Hook line and sinker.

holy shit, captcha: Saturnino sumorb. OP's image, my face, etc. HOW DOES IT KNOW??????

>> No.1597336

>>1597329
>Could they also fall apart at as yet unobserved very great scales?

There are already plenty of things General Relativity fails to explain on very large scales.

>> No.1597337

>>1597318

Honestly people that depend on /sci/ for answers to questions as simple and fundamental as how gravity works are going to bother digging deeper anyway. If they are truly curious they will go read a book on it instead of depending on a bunch of stupid faggots with tripcodes that only half understand any of it themselves. I will only confuse those that are too lazy to learn anyway, fuck them.

>> No.1597349

>>1597329
>Could they also fall apart at as yet unobserved very great scales?

Possibly relevant: From our observations and calculations, we currently believe our universe to be flat (stretching out in every direction, not looping around), with an oft-cited "2% margin of error". However, it is possible that the universe is so incredibly vast that it really is closed (loops back around, like if you were to travel around a globe), but on such a massive scale that the 13.7-billion light year radius we can see is just a tiny insignificant slice that appears flat.

>> No.1597351
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1597351

FUCKING GRAVITY, HOW DOES IT WORK?

Read a book you lazy fuck.

Peace out faggots

>> No.1597355

>>1597173 I'd say there's a point where it doesnt quite effect powerfully enough to be reasonably considered

That is not what the term "upper limit" means.

>> No.1597363

>>1597349

You best be trollin' with that flat universe shit.

>> No.1597368

>>1597238
This picture will never NOT make me laugh

>> No.1597371

<3 this thread

>> No.1597372

>>1597337
>are going to bother digging deeper anyway
I wouldn't count on that.

Seeing how everyone spurts what they think is right without anything to back them up, it's pointless to try to discuss a topic which one isn't already proficient in, as there is no way to distinguish the idiots from the trolls from the guy that really know their shit.
This topic is a perfect example.

>> No.1597381

>>1597336
Could you provide examples? I'm curious.

>> No.1597387

>>1597363
>You best be trollin' with that flat universe shit.
You best be trolling claiming you think flat universe is trolling.

DUH HOW DOES UNIVERSE FLAT?
http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_shape.html

>> No.1597389

i could stand here for hours just to ask the question...
is everything here make believe?

>> No.1597394
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1597394

>>1597381
Anything that involves dark matter or dark energy in its explanation is something that General Relativity can't properly explain.

For example, this plot of the rotational velocity of stars in a galaxy, we would expect the dashed line behaviour, instead we get the solid line.

>> No.1597395

test

>> No.1597396

>>1597394
And, as usual, I forget 4chan doesn't support transparency.

>> No.1597398

disregard that, i love cocks.

>> No.1597405

>>1597394
I'll have to disagree on that. Lots of phenomena aren't contradictions to GR itself, but to our concepts of reality. Allowing complex masses, negative energies etc explain a lot, however those things seem counter-intuitive. It could as well be that we're not understanding the full impact of GR yet.

>> No.1597415

>>1597405
Yet those are not concepts on GR proper. However this problem will be dealt with, it has to be through a reformulation of the theory.

>> No.1597418

>>1597301
Gravity diminishes with the square of distance Really large distances: ALMOST NO FUCKING GRAVITY. Did you know same is true for the electromagnetic force? it's range is also infinite.

HOW COME YOU'RE NOT PULLED TO THAT MAGNETAR MILLIONS OF LIGHT YEARS AWAY OMG THE RANGE IS INFINITE AMIRITE?

>> No.1597419

>>1597394
Was going to answer basically what
>>1597405
did.

I've been wondering, what field are you working in, Josef?

>> No.1597424

>>1597183
The function describing the strength of gravity can never reach 0. That's why.

>> No.1597425

>>1597418
That's because the universe on large scales has no net charge I think, this doesn't apply to gravity.

>> No.1597433

>>1597418
>infinite

Only it isn't. Its range is limited to distances less than where the expansion of space exceeds the speed of light in a vacuum.

>> No.1597446

>>1597433
Depends on the solution you are working with. The Schwarzschild cross section is infinite for example.

>> No.1597456

>king of sci

>> No.1597464

>>1597433
What is space expanding into? Checkmate.

>> No.1597472

>>1597387

Our universe isn't two dimensional.

>> No.1597474

>>1597456
>implying you're the king of anything,
you're just a paranoid unloved fat ass ugly freak

>> No.1597485

>>1597472
Flat doesn't mean two-dimensional. You should finish at least highschool level science and mathematics courses before posting to /sci/.

>> No.1597486

>>1597164
>>1597474
>>1597456
>>1597456
>>1597456

>samefag

>> No.1597493

Did Aether quit /sci/? I can't tell anymore, because everyone knows his trip now.

>> No.1597512

>>1597485

flat 1 (flt)
1. Having a horizontal surface without a slope, tilt, or curvature.

Flat. Like a 2 dimensional plane? Our universe is not flat, you are stupid.

>> No.1597513

There is no cutoff as such, but there are two potential things which can cause the same-ish problem:
1) the strength is inversely proportional to distance squared, so further away becomes less powerful very rapidly.
2) no information can travel faster than the speed of light, even a gravity field. Therefore, just as there is a limit to how far we can see in our universe (some places are so far photons haven't even reached us yet). The same limit says we currently are completely unaffected by their gravity... but that is not to say we wont be affected at some time the future, but then problem (1) takes effect again.

>> No.1597518

>Honestly people that depend on /sci/ for answers to questions as simple and fundamental as how gravity works are going to bother digging deeper anyway.

Oh so you've figured out gravity have you?

You know, if you really believe this, you could probably get a Nobel prize.

Seriously, publish your findings, sir.

>> No.1597529

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-dESxFjjmQ

>> No.1597533

I'LL NEVER SOFTEN MY GRIP.

>> No.1597536

>>1597518

Things with mass pull on other things with mass.

Wow, that was hard. Where is my prize faggot?

>> No.1597537

COWARD
>>1597533

>> No.1597539

I'M GONNA LIVE.

>> No.1597542

I'M GONNA FLY.

>> No.1597544

>>1597536
Yeah. Because that's ALL there is to gravity, right?

Why does it pull? "Because it has a large mass.". Yeah, awesome awesome, douchebag.

>> No.1597546

I'M GONNA FAIL.

>> No.1597550

lmao, aether trying to derail a science thread

silly aether, you cant science

go make another religion thread

>> No.1597551

I'M GONNA DIE.

>> No.1597563
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1597563

>> No.1597567
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1597567

i am the real aether.

>> No.1597568

<div class="math">\frac{k}{r^{2}}</div> is never 0 for <div class="math">k\neq 0</div>

Newton got it right. This shit definitely works, else we couldnt have sent stuff into space.

>> No.1597569

>>1597563
fuck i lol'd and i don't know why

>> No.1597571
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1597571

I'm the real aether too

>> No.1597575
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1597575

>> No.1597577

guys, i think im the transitional species into the next stage of evolution

>> No.1597578
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1597578

>> No.1597583
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1597583

>> No.1597593
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1597593

>> No.1597599
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1597599

>> No.1597602

I like science. Do you like science?

>> No.1597608

>>1597599
>>1597593

10/10


also i like science

>> No.1597612
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1597612

>> No.1597620
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1597620

>> No.1597633

>>1597567

PAY ATTENTION TO ME!

PLEASE!

>> No.1597634
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1597634

>> No.1597643
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1597643

mfw it says TIME in the circle

>> No.1597650
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1597650

mfw i highlight it

>> No.1597659
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1597659

mfw you still call me troll

>> No.1597665
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1597665

>> No.1597666

>king of sci

>> No.1597669

>>1597666
Get back to you're fucking habbo hotel.

>> No.1597673

sage

>> No.1597675

We as humans are acted on by all mass in the universe through gravity. Done, fixed. If it's too hard to wrap your mind around then don't bother coming to /sci/.

>> No.1597679

so you guys dont even respect einstien?

>> No.1597686

>>1597679

im so trolling the fuck out of you guys now

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeEEEeee-

>> No.1597695

>>1597686

It's only trolling if you are sucking my cock.

>> No.1597710

einstien is still with us,
he invented the greatest invention ever,
the machine to find the wisest person in the world...
and guess what? it wasn't u guys.

>> No.1597725

>>1597710

It was the Colonel Sanders, He helped us with the niggers keeping them at bay.

>> No.1597740

so you go ahead and vote one as your president.

>> No.1597744

I like to fuck dogs

>> No.1597752

you got yourself in this mess whitewash... you can get yourself out of it

>> No.1597756

I masturbate to Einstein every night, I cant help it his hot bod is so sexy I just want to cover myself in mustard and sing to him everyday as he sucks my toes.

>> No.1597768

>>1597752

I meant I don't wash my nuts, I like the way it smells after a while cause when my dog licks my balls it's like ecstasy.

>> No.1597778
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1597778

>> No.1597782

>>1597756
Same, I also lick Aether's nuts while he jacks off to Einstein.

>> No.1597785

>>1597778

aren't I sexy?

>> No.1597787

Whoops my silly samefag Aether ass forgot sage hahahahahahahahha

>> No.1597795

>>1597787

It's cause I like to shove hotdogs up my ass

>> No.1597796
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1597796

>> No.1597797

>>1597782

YES LICK MY NUTS!

>> No.1597813

Would there be a point where gravity only works in sputters when a single [insert the force mediating particle of gravity here] would come in contact with either mass every million years? is that enough of a ceiling for you?

>> No.1597815

I cant stop believing!

>> No.1597821

>>1597815

I'm just a small town girl!
Living in the lonely world!!

>> No.1597835

>>1597813

It's when a mommy and a daddy really love eachother and they start kissing but then mommy is like "I don't really love you" And Daddy goes "NOO!!" and he grabs her hands and forces them above her head and starts to remove her clothes and she screams "No no no!" but I think she was imitating Daddy and then daddy starts to push on her between her legs and she starts to yell out like are cat fluffy when she wants the other kittys attention. So then mommy starts crying and daddy keep pushing harder! untill he makes this really weird sound and does one last thrust and this white stuff comes out of mommys pee pee and she curls up and keeps crying.

That was how I was made. By gravity.

>> No.1597839

>>1597835
LOLING HARD

>> No.1597855

>>1597839

It's only funny until someone looses and eye.

>> No.1597867

>>1597835
You're a credit to your people tripfag

>> No.1597873

Is the real Cody in this thread?

>> No.1597875

>>1597873

I am the real Cody!

>> No.1597880

>>1597875
No really LOL.

>> No.1597896
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1597896

IS CODY IN THIS FUCKING THREAD OR NOT WE'RE TRYING TO PLAY TAG

>> No.1597897

>>1597880

I don't know maybe I chased him off. I couldn't help it when he said
>>1597686
so I replied with the "It's only trolling if you suck my cock"
but thing is I don't have a cock cause I'm a girl with a vagina.
Then I saw he posted his name.

It was an easy troll. Even more me.

>> No.1597902

>>1597897
When he said what?

>> No.1597903

>>1597897

Even more for me

Sorry forgot a word.

>> No.1597906

>>1597902

"im so trolling the fuck out of you guys now

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeEEEeee-"

>> No.1597928
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1597928

I'm not sure that was Cody, he's not that much of an idiot. Anyways thanks, off to find him, I'll be back ;3

>> No.1597942

>>1597928

He started it, but okay?

>> No.1597947

>>1597942
Started what?

>> No.1597949

>>1597947

I have no idea.

but I am bored now, :(
my trolling has ended.

why are you trying to find him?

>> No.1597958

>>1597949
We're playing tag. I found him in /a/ already so now he's looking for me.

>> No.1597963

>>1597958

How do you know it's him?

>> No.1597974

>>1597963
Every board we go to we have to make a post, so I lurk through all the boards and CTRL F cody. It's pretty easy for me because Cody is usually in /a/ or /y/ LOL

>> No.1597979

>>1597974

Ah, that sounds... interesting?

So you are hiding here?

>> No.1597997

>>1597979
I was, he just found me in /ck/

Brb again.

>> No.1598006

>>1597997

Okay?

Why are we still talking? No offense but never done this before...

>> No.1598017

Oh sorry a friend of Cody's is a friend of mine :'D

>> No.1598039

>>1598017

I don't know who cody is?

>> No.1598048

....? You aren't that guy Sharron or whatever, LOL? He told me about you? Or is this not the real Aether?

>> No.1598056

>>1598048

This isn't that person. I trolled that person.

My name is Amiiee. O...o and I am a girl.

>> No.1598065

>>1598056
OH LOL SORRY ABOUT THE CONFUSION. Aether is some guy Cody mad fancies and he said he trolls here a lot. But yeah okay thanks for clearing that up.

>> No.1598073

>>1598065

Yeah I was trolling the troll. That's how I roll.

>> No.1598081

NOUNS AND VERBS

>> No.1598097
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1598097

>>1598073

>> No.1598099

Because gravity propagates at the speed of light under General Relativity, although the extent of gravitational influence is limited, the size of a clump that can be held together is limited. If the extent of the matter is larger than this limit, the information is too old to be able to pull it in a direction that would keep the clump together.

This was used to figure out the actual sizes of the clumping in the cosmic microwave background radiation, which in turn told us how far away it was coming from.

>> No.1598109

>>1597650
>>1597650
>>1597650
>>1597650
>>1597650
>>1597650
>>1597650

>> No.1598121
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1598121

>>1597164

>> No.1598128

wow the real aether is back

>> No.1598131
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1598131

>>1598121
Aw you're adorable in a homicidal, freak looking way.

>> No.1598136

>>1598121
Why do you look like such a cunt face? Fuck you're ugly, no surprise you had to resort to science.

>> No.1598144

>>1598131


He is a god damn idiot.

>> No.1598150

>>1598144
Probably, more than likely if Cody fancies him.

>> No.1598152

Oh god....

>> No.1598235

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqnWyG9jxcs

>> No.1598397

LOL WUT

>> No.1598491

can i be queen of /sci/

>> No.1598558

Grace I fucking hate you.

>> No.1599079

LOL OOPS SORRY I DIDN'T KNOW HE DIDN'T KNOW.

>> No.1599091

>>1597164
yeah if youre not in contact with the surface then gravity doesnt apply