/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.15863932]

How come Mars cools off so rapidly at night? You'd think, given the enormous amount of greenhouse gasses (principally CO2) in Mars' atmosphere, that locations on Mars would cool off much more slowly at night than they do on Earth since Mars has much, much more CO2 in it's atmosphere than Earth does, over 20x more on a per unit surface area basis, yet Mars has a massive whoppingly large gap between daytime high temperatures and nighttime lows. Theres nowhere on Earth, not even the most arid regions, that regularly experiences daily 70ºC temperature swings, but on Mars thats the norm.
Is it possible that the greenhouse gas qualities of CO2 are negligible or insignificant? Water vapor is the principle greenhouse gas on Earth, if CO2 was completely impotent as a greenhouse gas then that would explain why Mars has such massive daily temperature swings in comparison to the much more moderate ones on Earth. Some humid regions on Earth have daily average temperature variations as small as 5ºC while arid locations swing by as much as 15ºC on average. There is nothing anywhere approaching the temperature variations seen on Mars.

Attached is a location on Mars near the equator with it's monthly temperature statistics normalized to an Earth calendar for ease of comparison

[Anonymous No.15863933]

you make sense there hmmm

[Anonymous No.15863935]

>>15863932
Yes. CO2 is not a greenhouse gas but water vapor is. The low amount of water vapor in the atmosphere of Mars causes it to lack a greenhouse effect.

[Anonymous No.15863936]

You can find all the answers in this thread that just hit autosage: >>15790655
I'm sure you didn't see this and that this isn't just a replacement thread for that other one.

[Anonymous No.15863947]

>>15863936
Hm you're right. That thread reinforces the conclusion that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas. Thanks!

[Anonymous No.15863955]

don't ask question guy just give your money to Israel and Klaus Schwab

[Anonymous No.15863959]

>>15863947
Please delete your thread as to not clutter page 1.

[Anonymous No.15863980]

Kinda sucks that Mars has no greenhouse effect, it would be a lot more inhabitable if it did

[Anonymous No.15864011]

>>15863980
Well, it does have a greenhouse effect. It's just much smaller due to the low atmospheric density.

[Anonymous No.15864186]

>>15864011
there is no water vapor cycle either that dominates the greenhouse effect. with that the relatively small effect the weak greenhouse co2 has on temperature is multiplied on earth. co2 alone needs very high pressures like on venus to get the job done.

[Anonymous No.15864189]

>>15863932
1. there is little to no water vapour on mars
2. thicker atmospheres help distribute heat
3. thicker atmoshperes also increase the range of infrared radiation that can be absorbed by co2 through pressure broadening.

[Anonymous No.15864190]

It's greenhouse gas, because of how atmosphere works on Earth, that it's greenhouse gas here, doesn't mean it's greenhouse gas everywhere. It's about stuff like diffraction light and stuff. It's not just the amount of CO2 but whole thing working miracles.

[Anonymous No.15864200]

>>15863932
This video explains the greenhouse effect pretty well: https://youtu.be/oqu5DjzOBF8

[Anonymous No.15864203]

>>15863932
Mars has an incredibly thin atmosphere in comparison to the Earth. Therefore it's not able to retain heat nearly as well as the Earth since less atmosphere means less thermal storage capacity. Think of Mars like a desert, it can get really gor during the day but since there's very little gas in the air to store that heat it gets very cold at night.

[Anonymous No.15864992]

>>15864203
I thought CO2 is like a blanket that traps heat in, how come it doesn't work like that on Mars when Mars has so much more CO2 than Earth does?

[Anonymous No.15865102]

>>15864992
he just explained why
jesus fucking christ I hate this board

[Anonymous No.15865288]

>>15865102
Did you just assume their gender, you bigot

[Anonymous No.15865291]

>>15863932
All these surface level boomer theories are so retarded man
Can you do more research besides watching a youtube video while falling asleep on your melatonin?

[Anonymous No.15865555]

>>15863932
>You'd think, given the enormous amount of greenhouse gasses (principally CO2) in Mars' atmosphere, that locations on Mars would cool off much more slowly at night than they do on Earth
no I would not think that

[Anonymous No.15865565]

>>15865555
why not? don't you believe in greenhouse gasses? or do you just presume that CO2 isn't a greenhouse gas?

[Anonymous No.15865589]

I wonder if someone’s paying for these endless threads. They keep posting the same bullshit even though they keep getting proven wrong every single time

[Anonymous No.15865678]

>>15863932
mars atmosphere is thin and sparse, like your hair

[Anonymous No.15865689]

>>15864200
That is a well known crackpot channel pushing determinism and other nonsense.

[Anonymous No.15865696]

>>15865678
LMAO

[Anonymous No.15865715]

>>15865291
What part of CO2 is not a greenhouse gas you don't understand you ignorant piece of shit?
We need troops to go into every school, college and university to beat into a corpse every anti science woke moron like you.

[Anonymous No.15865751]

>>15865696
What the fuck is that?

[Anonymous No.15866027]

>>15865102
why are you here if you hate /sci/ so much? are you here with ill intent? planning to be nasty to the board that you hate so much?

[Anonymous No.15866035]

>why does the planet with 1/100th of the atmosphere of earth not hold any head

[Anonymous No.15866080]

>>15866035
According to popular scientific theory CO2 is a greenhouse gas and its the greenhouse gases in an atmosphere that cause it to retain on not retain heat rather than the mass of gas. Earth's atmosphere is primarily nitrogen and oxygen, but those two gasses are credited with playing no part whatsoever in Earth's greenhouse effect, the tiny percentage of the atmosphere that is water vapor is said to be responsible for nearly the entirety of the greenhouse effect on Earth with methane & CO2 making up the final percent or so. So on Mars, with the atmosphere being entirely CO2, the most popular theory of greenhouse gasses suggests that Mars should have an enormous greenhouse effect regardless the atmosphere's low density since it has so much CO2 in it's atmosphere.
Are you saying that you think the conventional and most popular theory of how atmospheres work is incorrect and that so-called greenhouse gasses do not account for the so-called greenhouse effect?
If so, OP already addresses that, comparing night time cooling rates in arid and humid regions, which suggests that water vapor is a greenhouse gas. So the so-called greenhouse gasses do seem to impact the so-called greenhouse effect. Mars does not experience a greenhouse effect, so the only conclusion that can be reached from that is that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas. If CO2 were a greenhouse gas then there is no way the intraday temperature ranges on Mars could be achieved.

[Anonymous No.15866110]

>>15863932
If you are actually serious the simple answer is that all materials have a heat capacity, and the more material you have the more total heat is stored at a particular temperature. Mars may have more CO2, but its atmosphere is vastly thinner than the earth's so the total heat capacity of the atmosphere is way lower. Even with a greenhouse effect far less heat needs to escape the martian atmosphere for it to significantly cool down compared to the earth.

[Anonymous No.15866152]

>>15863932
>How come Mars cools off so rapidly at night?
Jews

[Anonymous No.15866224]

>>15866080
Your repeated inability to understand a basic concept doesn’t mean everyone else is as retarded as you are

[Anonymous No.15866470]

>>15865565
He probably understands how the greenhouse effect works in detail, unlike you who just came up with a quantity and baselessly announce "more of this should mean more greenhouse effect regardless of everything else".

[Anonymous No.15866474]

>>15866080
> So on Mars, with the atmosphere being entirely CO2, the most popular theory of greenhouse gasses suggests that Mars should have an enormous greenhouse effect regardless the atmosphere's low density since it has so much CO2 in it's atmosphere.

Not quite right. Mars' atmosphere is thin (less than 1% of Earth's), so even though it's mostly CO2, there's not enough of it to create a strong greenhouse effect. Plus, Mars is further from the Sun, receiving less solar energy.

> Mars does not experience a greenhouse effect, so the only conclusion that can be reached from that is that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas.

This conclusion is flawed. CO2 is a greenhouse gas, but Mars' conditions (thin atmosphere, distance from Sun) don't allow for a significant greenhouse effect. It's not just about the presence of greenhouse gases, but also their concentration and the planet's proximity to its star.

[Anonymous No.15866631]

>>15866474
>so even though it's mostly CO2, there's not enough of it to create a strong greenhouse effect.
Earth has less than 5% of the CO2 that Mars has, how does a tiny amount of CO2 on Earth supposedly create a substantial greenhouse effect on Earth when 20x more doesn't create any greenhouse effect at all on Mars?

>but Mars' conditions (thin atmosphere, distance from Sun)
Mars gets plenty warm during the day, look at the data in OP, but it doesn't hold that heat in at all at night. Instead Mars cool off at the same rate that would be expected if the planet had no atmosphere at all, how is that possible with an atmosphere thats made almost completely out of greenhouse gasses?

[Anonymous No.15866704]

>>15865751
Homo floresiensis.

[Anonymous No.15866841]

>>15863932
CO2 is not a greenhouse gas at 0.006 atm pressure

[Anonymous No.15867421]

>>15866841
source?

[Anonymous No.15867582]

>>15867421
Mars

[Anonymous No.15868615]

>>15867582
Thats right, Mars has no greenhouse effect regardless the massive amount of CO2 in its atmosphere, thats because CO2 is not a greenhouse gas

[Anonymous No.15869554]

>>15866110
So you're saying it makes no difference what the composition of the atmosphere is and only the density of the atmosphere affect how rapidly a planet cools off at night and greenhouse gasses don't have any affect at all?

[Anonymous No.15869999]

>>15863932
I'm so tired of your retarded ass

>CO2 on a per unit surface area basis
Where do you even get this number? Earth has 300x more mol CO2 per square kilometer surface area than Mars

[Anonymous No.15870023]

>>15869999
>trips of wrong
lol
lmao even
Mars has 7.5x more moles CO2 per sq. km surface area than Earth

[Anonymous No.15870062]

How come Mars is 500°C cooler than Venus? You'd think, given the enormous amount of CO2, which is a greenhouse gas, in Mars' atmosphere, that Mars would be hotter. CO2 % in Mars' atmosphere is only 1.5% less than Venus, so what explains the difference?
Is it possible that the greenhouse gas qualities of CO2 are negligible or insignificant?

[Anonymous No.15870082]

>>15865589
the idea is that if you repeat bullshit often enough someone will believe it. it's working and it is making a difference over time. understanding the greenhouse gasses and the warming mechanism isn't trivial especially with the water vapour cycle and how the effect of co2 is multiplied through it. that is the weak point the sophon that started this thread is aiming at.

[Anonymous No.15870154]

>>15869554
I'm not saying composition doesn't matter. It does matter. But if the density of the atmosphere is too low than there is not enough heat stored in the atmosphere for a greenhouse effect to trap in the first place so the fact that it has more co2 doesn't keep it warm enough.

[Anonymous No.15870185]

>>15863932
Water is a much more potent greenhouse gas than co2. The reason carbon dioxide and others matter here on earth is because the presence of water in the atmosphere is dependent on temperature. Water vapor cant warm up the planet enough to sustain its own presence in the atmosphere so it relies on gases that don't condense to stabilize and guage the earth's temperature. On Mars there's only co2 which on its own sucks for trapping heat

[Anonymous No.15871348]

imagine being dumb enough to believe in the global warming doomsday cult meme, how low does your iq need to be for that?

[Anonymous No.15871391]

>>15871348
An IQ of 85 or below is generally where people start being unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.

[Anonymous No.15871891]

>>15866631
>how does a tiny amount of CO2 on Earth supposedly create a substantial greenhouse effect on Earth
it doesn't
CO2 isn't a greenhouse gas

[Anonymous No.15871905]

>>15871891
Explain Venus.

[Anonymous No.15871954]

>>15865555
>enormous amount of greenhouse gasses
source? percentage =/= volume
I actually can't find data of exact amount of CO2 on Mars verses Earth

[Anonymous No.15871961]

>>15870062
a cup full of water could have less water then a cup half full

[Anonymous No.15871981]

>>15871391
>unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.
That's a personality thing more than an intelligence thing, imo.

[Anonymous No.15872021]

>>15871954

[Anonymous No.15872395]

>>15870154
>heat stored in the atmosphere
on mars and earth the atmosphere is mostly transparent and the part of the planet that accumulates solar energy during the day and reradiates it at night is the planet's surface

[Anonymous No.15872406]

>>15872021
I accept your concession.

[Anonymous No.15873613]

>>15871981
its actually an iq thing, personality issues arise from low iq

[Anonymous No.15874480]

>>15870062
Venus' atmosphere is opaque, its not a situation thats analogous to Earth and Mars where the transparent atmosphere allows the Sun to heat the solid surface of the planet

[Anonymous No.15874494]

>>15874480
So Venus should be even colder, given that it doesn't even get direct sunlight?

[Anonymous No.15874500]

>>15871954
The pure mass of CO2 is also not the single number that drives the greenhouse effect in terms of power. The other 99.96% of our atmosphere directly and indirectly contribute to the ability of CO2 to cause the greenhouse effect.

[Anonymous No.15874501]

>enormous amount
Mars's atmosphere is 1% the density of Earth's, ain't nothing getting trapped.

[Anonymous No.15874520]

>>15863932
>How come Mars cools off so rapidly at night?

Mars' atmosphere is really thin. Mars' atmosphere is something, like 90-100 times thinner than Earths. It's like jumping into bed and asking why you're chilly when you're blanket is like a table mat instead of a quilt.

>Is it possible that the greenhouse gas qualities of CO2 are negligible or insignificant?

No, otherwise it would be more like the Moon.
The Moon is a vacuum, possess no atmosphere what-so-ever, and can't hold onto any heat and has temperature spikes that go from 120 Celsius to -253 Celsius at 'night'. That's normal for the Moon, but on Mars your own record temperatures, which I assume are exceptional, don't go quite that extreme.
With all that in mind I'd actually argue the opposite: it's impressive how 'comparatively' warm Mars is despite its' distance from the sun and how thin its' atmosphere is. That carbon dioxide is absolutely doing something.

[Anonymous No.15874951]

>>15874520
Mars' atmosphere is practically pure CO2, so it should be exceptionally insulating regardless the lack of density.

The Moon's day-night cycle takes something like 700 hours, Mars would cool off that much too if it had nights that long. The temperature swings on Mars are pretty much exactly what they would be if the planet didn't have an atmosphere. The hottest time of day on Mars is noon too, thats another tipoff that CO2 has pretty much no insulating qualities at all, if Mars' atmosphere had insulating qualities then the peak heat of the day would be displaced from noon like it is here on Earth

[Anonymous No.15875006]

>>15874951
>Mars' atmosphere is practically pure CO2, so it should be exceptionally insulating regardless the lack of density.
Not how it works.
>The temperature swings on Mars are pretty much exactly what they would be if the planet didn't have an atmosphere.
Correct. It almost doesn't have an atmosphere.
>if Mars' atmosphere had insulating qualities then the peak heat of the day would be displaced from noon like it is here on Earth
Correct. A very thin atmosphere had almost no insulating effect.

[Anonymous No.15876101]

>>15875006
>A very thin atmosphere had almost no insulating effect.
It would if it was made of greenhouse gasses such as water vapor, but it doesn't on Mars because CO2 isn't a greenhouse gas

[Anonymous No.15876188]

>>15863932
This is why AI trained in this forum is unfeasibly retarded

[Anonymous No.15876332]

>>15876188
So you're trying to tell us that you can't explain why Mars cools off so rapidly at night even though the obvious explanation is that CO2 isn't a greenhouse gas.

[Anonymous No.15876358]

>>15863932
the answer is how mass and volume relate to pressure and concentration in the gaseous phase.
mars atmosphere is way lighter than earth's. that, added to a much lighter gravity force leads to the the pressure being much, much lower, so even though the percentage, or even number of mols of CO2 is higher on mars atmosphere, the concentration of CO2 molecules per volume is almost insignificant, resulting in a much lower probability of trapping incoming photons from the sun in the form of heat.

[Anonymous No.15876431]

>>15876358
So what you're saying is that because of Mars' low gravity it requires much more mass of atmosphere to produce the same atmospheric pressure than would be observed under Earth gravity.
So if Mars has 38% of Earth's gravity and 6.5% of Earth's atmospheric pressure that means Mars has to have about 17% Earth's mass of atmosphere to produce that pressure.

[Anonymous No.15876588]

>>15876431
>Mars has to have about 17% Earth's mass of atmosphere to produce that pressure.
yes and mars' atmosphere is 95% co2 compared to only 0.042% on earth, so mars should have a massive greenhouse effect if co2 is a greenhouse gas, yet there is no evidence of any greenhouse effect at all on mars

[Anonymous No.15876599]

>>15876101
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.15876601]

>>15876332
>what is thermal capacity?

[Anonymous No.15876605]

>>15876588
Mars evidently has a greenhouse effect of 5°C.

[Anonymous No.15876610]

>>15876605
That was disproven in the other thread. That figure is based on a wikipedia calculation which is incorrect.

[Anonymous No.15876622]

>>15876610
>no! Spectral measurements showing the small greenhouse effect of the Martian atmosphere are fake
>>15865589

[Anonymous No.15876652]

>>15876622
Uh sure whatever. Go play with your friends Timmy.

[Anonymous No.15876654]

>>15876605
OK, so lets take your cherrypicked, massively overestimated 5º greenhouse effect number for Mars and compare that with whats going on in Earth's atmosphere. Mars has 17% the mass of atmosphere that Earth does, but the proportion of CO2 in Mars' atmosphere is 2375 larger than on Earth. Which means that of the 33º greenhouse effect on Earth, CO2 should account for roughly 0.002º worth, with the rest of it mainly attributed to water vapor.
The greenhouse effect on Earth due to water vapor can be directly observed as pointed out in OP, the greenhouse effect on Earth due to CO2 cannot even though there are regions on the planet with varying levels of atmospheric CO2. So why insist in this unobservable voodoo idea of a greenhouse effect on Earth due to CO2 when the cause of over 99.9% of the greenhouse effect on Earth is directly observable as being attributable to water vapor?

[Anonymous No.15876657]

>>15876654
Because you can't regulate or tax water vapor to justify the controlled demolition of a first world economy.

[Anonymous No.15876690]

>>15876654
Assuming you’re not arguing in bad faith and rejecting empirical observations the reasons that Mars has a wake greenhouse effect are
Mars’s atmosphere is very thin and has no water.
The amount of solar radiation is 40% of the amount reaching the Earth
When CO2 absorbs and re emits IR, there must be other gases to hold that energy and the mass of the Martian atmosphere is much much smaller and thus can’t hold energy effectively.
The problem on earth with CO2 is that it compounds the greenhouse effect of the other gasses in the atmosphere. Water vapor falls out of the atmosphere almost instantly, and it’s controlled by temperature. While CO2 has a much longer residence time. This causes a positive feedback loop where the extra greenhouse effect of CO2 increases the temperature and thus the atmosphere can hold more water.
Prior to the anthropogenic spike of CO2, this back and forth lead to the glacial/interglacial cycles that are triggered by changing orbital parameters. These cycles operate on the order of 100k years.
This is an observed and quantified fact. The amount of radiative forcing is in fact die to increasing CO2.

[Anonymous No.15876709]

>>15876690
>Prior to the anthropogenic spike of CO2
You mean the one in the Cambrian?

[Anonymous No.15876719]

>>15876709
>hurr what about the time not even plants had reached land
Great arguments here

[Anonymous No.15876725]

>>15876719
Well you said spike. Are you talking 2000ppm? 1000? Or do you consider a measly 100ppm increase a "spike" that would have dramatic ramifications?

[Anonymous No.15876746]

>>15876725
Shameless deflection. Answer the arguments from the other post.
And yes, it is a large spike when CO2 rose by 80 ppm in 15k years in this interglacial period and we’ve increased the CO2 by ~150 ppm in 100 years

[Anonymous No.15876753]

>>15876746
>when CO2 rose by 80 ppm in 15k years in this interglacial period
You can't know that it took that long. The resolution of ice cores is much lower than you think it is. In 100,000 years it will appear that our "spike" took thousands of years.

[Anonymous No.15876757]

>>15876753
It might look like the temporary spike didn't exist because of the low resolution.

[Anonymous No.15876762]

>>15876753
Answer the question anon, stop deflecting like a coward.
Ice cores from this interglacial cycle do have sufficient resolution btw

[Anonymous No.15876766]

>>15876762
You're the only one deflecting (and lying about your data, which is far worse).

[Anonymous No.15876768]

>>15876766
You can deflect all you want, it doesn't change the fact that ice cores have enough resolution.
Interesting that you still haven't responded to any arguments.

[Anonymous No.15876784]

>>15876762
>>15876768
The resolution of the ice core for this past interglacial is 100 years. If you were collapse the anthropogenic CO2 emissions of the past 100 years, it would show a spike of ~60 ppm in the ice core record, something that clearly would be receivable in a hypothetical ice core.
The anthopogenic spike is also visible in the most shallow ice core data.

[Anonymous No.15876867]

>>15876690
>Mars’s atmosphere is very thin
its not even all that thin, its thick enough to have intermittent overcast and precipitation just like here on earth, its extremely similar to earth, moreso than any other planet in the known universe. the lower gravity on mars is whats responsible for the lower atmospheric pressure, the total mass of gas surrounding mars is comparable and analogous to earth. mars has way, way more co2 than earth does and it has little to no greenhouse effect. political propaganda graphics won't change that.

[Anonymous No.15876876]

>>15863932
CO2 is a marginal greenhouse gas. The marginal effect is only relevant on a planet with weather fine tuned to our evolution.

[Anonymous No.15876884]

>>15876762
show me the logarithmic graph

[Anonymous No.15876928]

>>15876867

[Anonymous No.15877340]

>>15876867
>Imagine being so retarded that you thought an atmosphere so thin that water would boil in your hand isn't thin

[Anonymous No.15877420]

>>15876928
Shows how bad AI is at judging intelligence.