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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/sci/ - Science & Math

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1561422 No.1561422 [Reply] [Original]

I fucking hate these morons who say agnostic as if it goes theist-agnostic-atheist. It's not a one-dimensional axis, it's a two-dimensional axis with left-right being theist/atheist and up-down being gnostic/agnostic (see image). Saying you're agnostic is like just saying the Y value when someone asks you for the ordered pair (X, Y) on an X-Y axis.

SAYING YOU’RE AGNOSTIC DOESN’T TELL US IF YOU’RE A THEIST OR AN ATHEIST. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY FAGGOTS

>> No.1561427

u mad brah?

>> No.1561428

It's the same deal as with the "Left-wing" "Right-wing" divide. People just like 1-dimension axes for some reason.

>> No.1561430

And here I was thinking /sci/ was really nice the last few days. Oh well, I guess some things never change.

>> No.1561439
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1561439

>>1561428
You mean this graph? Yeah I agree. Left-right on this refers to fiscal policies while up-down refers to social policies. Green is the only correct quadrant.

>> No.1561452
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1561452

>>1561439
>Green is the only correct quadrant.

>> No.1561458

>>1561439
>>1561452
Hold up, ima let you finish, but the red quadrant had the best music video this year

>> No.1561460
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>>1561452
... do i get a brofist? Exact same place as ghandi...

>> No.1561463

>>1561439

I think you mean blue.

>> No.1561465

>>1561458
sauce?

>> No.1561468

>>1561463
>implying that Saddam Husein wasn't blue

>> No.1561469

>>1561460
Yes you do.
ITT: Political quiz thread hijack
http://www.politicalcompass.org/

>> No.1561474

>>1561463
gb2/new/

>> No.1561475

Professor Bernardo De La Paz had it right.
Rational Anarchism FTW!

>> No.1561476

>>1561452
If you ain't Green, your probably a total jackass

>> No.1561477

Blue causes me physical pain, its basically enforced stagnation

Purple is the teaparty, and thus, not a real opinion at all

Green is basically your standard megaleft, progress without boundaries, but that will lead to lack of discipline

Red is controlled progress, the finest of all human creations, and engineered growth to ensure that the final product is exactly what you want it to be.

>> No.1561488

>>1561477
red is what we are in right now, you call this
> the finest of all human creations, and engineered growth to ensure that the final product is exactly what you want it to be
i call bullshit

>> No.1561489
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1561489

>>1561477
Red was tried, with disastreous consequences.

also, captcha is fucking with me.

>> No.1561494

>>1561477

Blue will save us all.

>> No.1561497

>>1561488
>red is what we are in right now,
are you from Cuba, Vietnam or North Korea?

>> No.1561498

>>1561494
>Blue will kill us all.

>> No.1561509

>>1561498

Nope, save us all.

>> No.1561511
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1561511

Red sucked
Blue sucks
Purple will DEFINITELY suck
Green will be awesome but ONLY if we have robots or some shit doing pretty much all the work. Otherwise that will suck too.

>> No.1561524

>>1561439

Purple, nigger.

>> No.1561526

Red = Cuba
Blue = USA
Purple = Somalia
Green = Norway

>> No.1561533

Down at the very bottom, on the boarder between green and purple. Maybe a lil' purple.

>> No.1561541

>>1561526

Somalia, socially libertarian? What the fuck.

>> No.1561551

>>1561526
>Blue = USA

Many of the states (West Coast, New England, etc) are green. The South is blue.

>> No.1561553

>>1561422
And just exactly which part of your post is related to science and math?

Anyone who replies to this thread is the cancer killing /sci/

>> No.1561554

>>1561526
>USA
>Authoritarian
The USA isn't authoritarian. People regularly claim the president is illegitimate to serve, 9/11 was an inside job, criticize the military-industrial complex, etc. We have huge amounts of freedom.

>> No.1561556

>>1561439

Really should be at least 3 dimensions for social, political and economic.

>> No.1561559

>>1561541
pretty sure you can fuck a goat and marry your sister there.

>> No.1561564

>>1561554

USA is a christfag police state and the election are a sham. You can get thrown in prison for taking drugs, how is that freedom? TBF it's like most "free" societies.

>> No.1561566

>>1561559

have your daughter circumcized at twelve and stoned for adultery.

Somalia is barely a country, it's a weak-assed government with a load of tribal clans.

>> No.1561574

>>1561422

I don't agree that they're gradients along an axis but I also don't agree with morons parotting bullshit they heard from what they perceive to be an intellectual authority figure and trying to pass it off as their own intelligence. If I'm the type of person who thinks you can't know if there's a god (an agnostic) why would I then turn around and take a stance on it (either theist of atheist). If I don't think you can know, I won't decide.

Now as far as language is concerned you're wrong again. Language changes over time. Do you call yourself gay when you're having a good day? I'm gunna go out on a limb and guess no. If you don't go around raging about how people aren't using "thee" and "thine" like a preening little faggot then you really don't care about preserving the language as it is forever you just care about people thinking you're smart... which pretty much makes you a preening faggot anyway.

:3

>> No.1561579 [DELETED] 
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>> No.1561583
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>> No.1561581

>>1561564
>USA is a christfag police state and the election are a sham
We're really not, don't be afraid to come here and spend your tourist dollars. Its true you can't do drugs in public, but if you're white its a pretty great place.

>> No.1561580

>>1561574

Don't matter if you know if there's a god or not, you still have to think there is one or not. You can't logically think that one either exists and doesn't exists at the same time, just because there's no definite answer

>> No.1561593

>>1561583

Agnostic theist is the most retarded stance I've ever seen.

>> No.1561601

>>1561526
I hope you are aware that Norway practices socialism. Socialism is not a libertarian ideal.

>> No.1561611

Don't have intrinsic belief in the subject? Lack any deeper care regarding it? Don't pray just in case or out of heartfelt belief? Don't perform sacrifices to appease some "other" force or just to secure yourself? Don't live according to any religiously ordained rationales whatsoever?

Well then, welcome to the insurmountable horror of abominate thought-forms that is the lack of religious belief and faith known as atheism.

Feel free to be as obnoxious or carefree as you wish, because we sure as hell don't give a shit or belong to any shared, incredibly secret, club that in any way has something as silly and utterly nonsensical as a governing "atheist culture".

>> No.1561621

>>1561580

Is that your expert opinion? That it "don't" matter? If I start with the premise that I don't think I can know then whatever guess comes after is meaningless and so there's no more point to defining myself in terms of whether or not I guess that a god exists than there is to defining myself and living a certain way because I flipped a coin and it landed heads side up. If I can't know for sure I stop there because I don't give a fuck.

I don't think I'm a bad person. If there were a god he wouldn't be so cruel as to have put me here with so many morons.

Also underage b& gtfo. :3

>> No.1561632

>>1561593
"I can't say that I really know that there's anything out there, watching over and giving a damn about us, but you sure as hell can't prove that there ISN'T something out there, and to me, that's more than enough reason to hold some hope out for something greater existing out there"

Meh.

>> No.1561635

>>1561621

Your worldview either contains a god or it doesn't It can't both contain one and not contain one, just because you don't know the answer. We don't know for certain that fairies don't exist, that doesn't mean we can't think they exist or not.

>> No.1561643

>>1561632

That would be agnostic deist. Agnostic theist would be like "ah no evidence whatsosver, so their could be a god, therefore I'm going to pray to Yahweh and eat this cracker that's the body of a psuedo-historical character.

>> No.1561659 [DELETED] 

>>1561635
Atheist doesn't mean your worldview doesn't include God. Agnostic means your worldview doesn't include God. Agnostic means you subscribe to a doctrine or belief of God's non-existence.

>> No.1561667

>>1561643
If you think there's no evidence whatsoever, why do you believe there's a creator of the universe? That makes no sense whatsoever. If there's no evidence you should have no belief.

>> No.1561671

>>1561659

Conveniently managed to swap the meanings of both words.

>> No.1561680

>>1561635
Atheist doesn't mean your worldview doesn't include God. Atheist means you subscribe to a doctrine or belief of God's non-existence. Agnostic means your worldview doesn't include God, as you have no knowledge of God.

>> No.1561683

>>1561667

I don't, I'm just making a distinction between agnostic-deist and agnostic-theist. But one is significantly more retarded than the other.

>> No.1561689

>>1561680
What happens if your world view doesn't include a God but that even if the universe was created by an intelligent being you would not feel any need to worship it?

>> No.1561695

>>1561680

Wrong, the atheistic worldview does not contain a god - it works fine without one. The agnostic worldview may also lack a god, or it may contain one. Agnostic just means the person makes clear they are not certain, which, I would believe, is a position quite a lot of atheists share also.

>> No.1561696

>>1561541
>The USA isn't authoritarian
patriot act, wiretapping, war on drugs, free speech zones...

>> No.1561694

>>1561683
A deist is a theist, genius.

>> No.1561704

>>1561694

A theist is a deist, a deist is not necessarily a theist. ln2ln

>> No.1561705

>>1561689
None of these words have an implication of what you feel inclined to worship, but rather what you believe. You could be a theist, but completely irreligious.

>> No.1561718

>>1561704
No, you have it backwards. Deism is a subset of theism. Theism is belief in God or gods. Deism is a more specific belief in a monotheistic God and the further belief that God can be known or learned about through rational means apart from divine revelation.

>> No.1561731

>>1561718
Which again makes deism and agnosticism directly incompatible. You can't believe that God can be learned about and believe God can't be known about.

>> No.1561732

>>1561704
deism = agnostic theism

>> No.1561739

>>1561718

You have it completely the wrong way round, sir. Look it up. Thomas Jefferson was a deist, not a Christian etc.

>> No.1561745

>>1561731

He had it the wrong way round. That's why I said agnostic-theism was retarded earlier.

>> No.1561751
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1561751

>> No.1561754

>>1561732
Wow, no, not at all. Deism is specifically anti-agnostic. Even more than generic theism.

>> No.1561753

you mad?
even tho you're right you should calm down a bit ololol

>> No.1561750

>>1561731
once again...
gnostic <-> agnostic ...adresses knowledge
theist <-> atheist ...adresses belief

you can believe (theist), without knowing for sure your belief is right (agnostic)

>> No.1561775

>>1561750
Believing without making any claims to knowledge is extremely rare, and so the two cannot be described as independent axes. Although it may be possible to have an agnostic theist, I have never met one, and it would be unusual for someone saying they believe something they have no knowledge about.

On the other hand an agnostic deist would be impossible. Deism says specifically that one has knowledge of God through rational means, and that such knowledge is possible.

>> No.1561779

>>1561754

Deism just means the belief in a deity or higher power (classical speaking, a creator deity that does not interact with the world). It can loosely overlap with agnosticism.

>> No.1561790

Agnostic doesn't just mean you don't have absolute knowledge. It means you are unwilling to commit to an opinion.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/agnostic

>> No.1561796

>>1561775

That is just two particular uses of the words deism and agnosticism - rational discovery and a god being unknowable. But when most people use the word agnostic they mean lack of knowledge and when they use deist they mean an unspecified god.

>> No.1561800

>>1561751

That is surprisingly accurate. Well done.

>> No.1561805

>>1561779
Deism further means you believe that understanding of God can be gained through rational means without any divine intervention needed. That part is what makes it incompatible with any sense of agnosticism.

>> No.1561816

>>1561796
I've never heard of deism meaning an unspecified god; I've only heard of it meaning the monotheistic God that is the creator of the universe, and that is knowable apart from revelation.

99% of the time anyone uses the word "agnostic", they do not mean "lack of knowledge", but the dictionary definition, which is non-commitment to an opinion.

>> No.1561818

>>1561805

This is just a semantic issue. Deism can have various meanings:

Noun
deism (plural deisms)
(philosophy) The belief in the existence of a god, by or through reason.
The belief in a god or gods who set the universe in motion, then ceased to interact with it.
(uncountable) The religious philosophy and movement that became prominent in England, France, and the United States in the 17th and 18th centuries that rejects supernatural events (prophecy, miracles) and divine revelation prominent in organized religion, along with holy books and revealed religions that assert the existence of such things.

>> No.1561824

>>1561818

I imagine that the first and last definitions would be "Deism" with an upper-case "D"

>> No.1561836

At least now that we are discussing something psuedo-scientific this thread is no longer cancer.

>> No.1561844

>>1561816

That sense of deism is completely wrong. Revelation etc is theism. Deism holds that there is no interaction with god at all.

That sense of agnosticism is right though.

>> No.1561861

>>1561824
The 1st and 2nd definitions are just elements of the 3rd definition... although the 2nd definition is more common more recently. Using any definition, it can be capitalized or non-capitalized.

The 2nd definition is more a later development of deism. People like Ben Franklin called themselves deists, but believed in divine providence. The main point of deism has always been that understanding of God comes from reason and not from divine revelation.

>> No.1561874

Troll thread

>> No.1561883

>>1561844
see
>>1561844

re Ben Franklin. Jefferson was probably also a Deist, though he never stated it specifically. Both believed in the involvement of God with the affairs of men (divine providence). I think the principle of non-involvement was a later development in the meaning of deism.

>> No.1561895

>>1561836
We're still not talking about anything even remotely related to science or math.

>> No.1561896

>>1561861

I agree, though I would think that at least 3. ought to be capitalized because it is a philosophy and a historically classical movement.

>> No.1561903

>>1561883

What's your source for that? I'd heard that neither of them believed God's involvement with man or His creation. Jefferson has also written some things that sound a bit atheistic. Perhaps his views of things evolve throughout his lifetime.

>> No.1561907

>I fucking hate these morons who say agnostic as if it goes theist-agnostic-atheist. It's not a one-dimensional axis, it's a two-dimensional axis with left-right being theist/atheist and up->down being gnostic/agnostic (see image). Saying you're agnostic is like just saying the Y value when someone asks you for the ordered pair (X, Y) on an X-Y axis.

>SAYING YOU’RE AGNOSTIC DOESN’T TELL US IF YOU’RE A THEIST OR AN ATHEIST. IT DOESN'T WORK THAT WAY FAGGOTS

typical atheist telling people how to think

>> No.1561924

>>1561907

Typical troll post.

>> No.1561929

>>1561751
That... is the most accurate political chart I have ever seen.

>> No.1561943

>>1561929

I don't think Hitler was a great choice. Didn't the Third Reich kind of lack a definite economic system? What about Robert Mugabe

>> No.1561952

>>1561903
There's lots of sources...

TJ's 2nd inaugural: "I shall need, too, the favor of that Being in whose hands we are, who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land..."

He also often speaks of praying for his friends and his country in his personal letters.

In Ben Franklin's famous letter to Ezra Stiles, "Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped."

>> No.1561963

>>1561943Didn't the Third Reich kind of lack a definite economic system?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany#Economy

There was a lot more thought that went into Nazi political philosophy than many people realize. Not, you know, always productive rational thought, but thought nonetheless.

>> No.1562007

>>1561963

Cheers.

>> No.1562013

>>1561943
>implying Mugabe had a definite economic system more detailed than "fuck whitey"

oh you

>> No.1562021

>>1561952

Thanks, though I remain fairly skeptical regarding som eof Jefferson's words.

>who led our forefathers, as Israel of old, from their native land..

e.g. whether or not that's just a turn of phrase. He did, after all, slice up the Bible and remove all the fantastical and supernatural elements that he thought a rational person shouldn't believe.

>> No.1562023

>>1561477
you got it right, bro/comrade
And I've always been and always will be a top red corner.

>> No.1562038

>>1562021
Yeah, I'm not claiming he necessarily believed in the events of Exodus, just that that he believed he needed the favor of God.

>> No.1562047

>>1562023
Top red corner? Like North Korea and the former Soviet Union? Great choice, bro.

>> No.1562071

>>1562047

wut

I didn't think N. Korea even has an economy.

>> No.1562130
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1562130

Purple FTW

>> No.1562151

>>1562130

Greater social freedom would b better though.