brain atomizer 3000

[Anonymous No.15558302]

TL;DR: if we atomised you and put you back together perfectly in 1 nanosecond would you die and the recreated you be like a clone? or would you continue as if nothing happened

for more reasoning vvv

the brains neurons are constantly removing and replacing molecules in order to repair itself and fuel themselves
after 5 years, 99.9% the atoms in your body will be different atoms
and if we removed a single molecule, a neuron wouldn't care,
if we replaced all the atoms in a neuron, nothing would change
as your brain and consciousness only works by independent neurons releasing signals occasionally;
if we were to separate all the neurons in your brain for a nanosecond and put them back together, you wouldn't notice, as the brain doesn't work by being constantly connected
as atoms are only relative, and the exact neurons in your brain are indifferent to you being conscious
similarly if we were to separate all the atoms in your brain and put them back together, as atoms only interact with immediate surroundings and your brain is an inexact organism that only relies on discrete and infrequent signals, it shouldn't really notice?

[Anonymous No.15558377]

>>15558302
This would never happen, hence it is redundant for me to spend my time and energy thinking about it.
If it were to happen, then I don't need to think about it, I can just observe what would happen.
Useless philosophy question on a Science board. Ship of Theseus masquerading as Neuroscience. Fuck off

[Anonymous No.15558383]

>>15558302
>hay guise, muh soience fiction comic book fantasy world
>>>/lit/sffg

[Anonymous No.15558390]

>>15558383
>real biological processes are sci-fi

[Anonymous No.15558412]

>>15558377
yea man, i guess we shouldn't think about everything we cant experience
Democritus was a pretty stupid for thinking about the purely philosophical idea of what stuff is made of considering he cant experience atoms
and what happens when we square root -1? who knows, it will never happen, why bother

[Anonymous No.15558438]

>>15558302
yes anon you are right.
notes of interest:
1. it clearly works. if you can see yourself in the mirror, that means that you exist, which implies it is possible for you to exist, as long as that exact arrangement of matter exists. it isn't something which needs to be proven, you need to explain why it wouldn't be you if we recreated your material structure.
2. this is more of an engineering problem rather than medical one. at least in the very beginning. we don't need to understand the information we copy and assemble back. we just need to be very good at doing it through some process which might already exist (but don't quote me on that).
3. with enough collected data we can start making sense of things, way faster than classical medicine is doing it. once you can replicate a body you can just omit the brain and install like a dummy one and you can run all sorts of experiments, way faster, without having ethical issues, there's no conscience in a body with a dummy brain. this exponentially accelerates medical discovery and overall human biology. you want this powerlevel, ASAP.
4. once you get to figure out how to modify the DNA and have great control over most aspects, then you can completely eradicate human disease and other imperfections.
5. you get to be death-proof. that concept does not exist anymore at this point, unless specifically sought for. say society condemns someone to death, you destroy the 3D body + the information itself, which means that person is really dead.
6. forwards time travel in an instant. any stretch of time when you exit 3D and re-enter it, you feel like a short nap. you can skip boring parts. literally. there's still some risk, like maybe we get wiped out by some cataclysm. if there's no one to reinterpret your information to 3D executable form, you are as good as dead, as most likely the rest of people. or someone hates you and hacks the database and deletes you in the meanwhile. there's still ways to really die.

[Anonymous No.15558452]

>>15558438 samefag
+ more.
fucking around, as priority, with biological immortality seems like the wrong way to go about it, right now. that can also be solved as explained above, at one point. just that it doesn't matter as much as you think it does. biological immortality. there's many many more other threats to you, apart from aging. you want death-proof concept, not immortal flesh.
this tech also comes with solid backup solutions for basically the human race.
the perks vs investment ratio on this one is absolutely insane.
this is also a good candidate for the most important thing life did since it appeared on Earth.
we basically defeat death.

[Anonymous No.15558462]

thanks man

[Anonymous No.15558480]

plus if you think about it, you don't even really need to get to perfectly replicate the body. you really only need to get to being scanned. if you reach that point, the whole time between scanning and reassembly can be skipped, which would feel like a nap for anyone going through the process. let that sink in. we're way closer to that, than anyone suspects. it's actually quite funny in a way.

[Anonymous No.15558556]

>>15558412
Sure, you can think about it. Think about it on a philosophy board. Ho to >>>/lit/ or >>>/his/ they have entire boards dedicated to thinking about this. Ask them "What does the Ship of Theseus question mean in relation to Neuroscience and the human mind?" and they'll give you a better answer. This is a science board.

[Anonymous No.15558571]

>>15558302
try to invert it
first a clone is made, and then a full second later you are atomised
during that second would you feel like what's about to happen is death or not?

[Anonymous No.15558596]

>>15558571
>would you feel
well it would kinda suck if we let dematerialization feel bad. wouldn't it?
if you'd need to take a planeride which would feel like literal death each time, you'd rather paddle the ocean instead.
plus there's like a bunch of shit regarding superposition and chances of switching perspective to clone body.
in the end, we have one you who went to get scanned and walked out of the scanner, and another identical you who swears he got into the scanner and woke up into the clone. so seems like a 50/50 chance.
actually the wavefunction for what you will experience next, when you get scanned, contains all the possibilities of reasembly of that data. like if you keep printing you's, you'll get chances of getting into any of those clones, as far as "your counsciousness" goes.
they will all be you, and each of your clones will tell you they literally switched bodies as far as consciousness goes. for them, they really did switch the bodies. and they are identically and exactly you.
problem is that the implications of what I am saying are going head to head with what you think you are, which I don't know how you'd think you could fully encompass by default. you don't really know who/what you are, because you never had the chance of experiencing it, thus you are in the proverbial cave, you have no choice but to say "noooo, something which I can't explain happens and can't work". you just don't know any better. think anon, think. you'd say exactly this if you were in the position I explained, in the cave.
you could argue in midwit tongue that if you get scanned and then your body destroyed, your consciousness moves in the next/first existing version of yourself. it will always be true, for any of your copies. which are not something less than you, they are exactly you, you just need to put in the work to understand what you really are, so you can grasp it.
well yeah, it kinda is paradigm changing, and quite a lot of philosophy if you want that.

[Anonymous No.15558646]

>>15558571
to directly respond to your question, and supposing for humanity's sake you don't feel anything really when your 3D info gets jumbled or yes, in midwit tongue classically "killed", your new instance will be missing that short time.
as in you could print a clone, and without anyone knowing do some shit and shoot yourself after. if your clone doesn't know that, for that you the fucked up thing you did in the meanwhile did not happen.
hence the need for coherence in how you perceive the world and events, and how we perceive you. we only run one instance of you at any time, in 3D space, simple rule and solves a lot of midwit confusions.
if we keep these rules everything works as before, just that we get insane perks. it is a perfectly valid way of using the environment in our favor, with no drawbacks.
also another quite important aspect. through this lens, nobody really died, or ever dies. information is just jumbled. like big time jumbled. it's just that their instances stopped manifesting in 3D space. if somehow we get the tech to reverse that entropy, or to time travel in the past and get like snapshots while they are sleeping or something (lmao) then you can re-assemble them in 3D space, and you'd have exactly them, again.
information is key.

[Anonymous No.15558662]

>>15558646 samefag
more so, it's not something you even need to be stressed about in adoption. if religious (more on that later) hurdles and other such stuff is passed, then naturally first company to offer the service has easy clients in rich fucks with one foot in their graves. of-course they'll do it with one week left.
what will that get you? well you get that same person minus his problem (presuming you can operate digitally on the info), or a younger body from his DNA or something like that. and that dude will yell at everyone that it fucking worked and it's all completely him and fuck yeah.
what do you think midwits will do when they keep seeing half dead fucks but with 20 years old bodies yelling and "feeling" exactly like them. they will all get on the train. the mechanics for adoption happens by itself, no need to even wonder about whether or not people will want to do it. who doesn't want to do it can just ... not do it.

[Anonymous No.15558673]

>>15558662
>religious
they have a way out with all that spiritual stuff being emergent from 3D. I mean they can keep some stuff and adapt, I don't see this as a threat to religion.
also as I forgot to mention, if you are a rich fuck sleeping on few hundred million what the fuck will you do with all that money when you'll inevitably die? get on this and increase the chances for your unlimited cocaine fueled whore fucking potential.

[Anonymous No.15558724]

and that means we will also be able to travel at light speed. spaceships will mostly be used to transport gear. planet wide human transport might be replaced in the future if we get the whole process fast and cheap.

[OP No.15558758]

>>15558556
thanks, I thought /lit/ was for books and /his/ was for napoleon n shit so thought it fit here
good 2 know

[Anonymous No.15558811]

>>15558646
>if your clone doesn't know that
what about if it does know exactly what just happened? would the originals or the clones use this more often?

>through this lens, nobody really died, or ever dies. information is just jumbled
if you span an identical clone of yourself the moment when his brain receives different stimuli than you he stops being identical, so he's his own human being and now there are two separate versions of you
if he stabs you to death he didn't kill you, right? i mean he is your "jumbled information" now

[Anonymous No.15558856]

>>15558302
you would probably lose your memories if its just atoms

[OP No.15558885]

>>15558571
ill have to think about this but for the time being
but I think this would imply that consciousness, and your existence is only because its a continuous chain of signals,

that never really stops even in a coma
and you are only you because you are the only person with that exact chain of continuous consciousness

does that mean if the chain of brain signals all stopped and started again you would die and be "cloned" by your new chain of existence?

[Anonymous No.15558897]

>>15558885
all i have in common with the man i was yesterday is only memories and a body

[Anonymous No.15558917]

>>15558856
what "you" are is your biology that is encoded in your DNA, and the exact place in spacetime where you get spawned as an instance. that determines what happens to you and how you will react to that, culminating in what you now call you.
given enough time and knowledge about our biology we should at one point be able to completely separate your body from the abstract collection of information that is encoded in your brain.
you are that abstract collection of information manifesting you in this 3D material arrangement that is your body. theoretically we can call that collection of abstract information "You" as a sense of identity. that, along with your DNA, is kinda everything that is needed to generate 3D you. if we record all the material properties of you, and reduce 3D you to atoms, your memories are not lost, they exist on a different medium which isn't executable in 3D, in the form the information is in (eg probably many SSDs). when you get reassembled you should have everything that you now have.

[Anonymous No.15558929]

>>15558302
>would you die and the recreated you be like a clone?
Yes. Continuity of consciousness would be broken.

[Anonymous No.15558938]

>>15558929
>trust me bro
it doesn't even make sense. it would be broken like it is every dreamless night and coma and clinical death.
even you will want to do it, on your deathbed. would you chose "just let me die knowing you'll all enjoy life in perfect health" or like "what do you think motherfuckers, lmao of-course".

[Anonymous No.15558972]

there will come a time where clinging to primitive things will get you literally killed by old age. believing and acting based on dogma will be the reason for you literally dying. take a good think at that. in the hopes that somehow after you die you go to some heaven or something along those lines. pretty sure suicide by aging will become a thing at some point, as perspective.

[Anonymous No.15558982]

>>15558302
your mental state might be fucked for a bit cuz it would disrupt the brain. you'd lose your action potentials that are in the process of being sent. this would interrupt your brains synchronous behavior. you could fall into a seizure or coma if it's bad enough.

[Anonymous No.15558985]

>>15558897
>>15558929
grim

you can live without half a brain
I wonder what's the least amount of neurons needed to sustain the chain of consciousness
could we split the brain in two?
who keeps the consciousness in the divorce?

[Anonymous No.15558993]

>>15558917
memories are encoded as electric fields which you would lose in this process

[Anonymous No.15559000]

>>15558985
>who keeps the consciousness in the divorce?
there's various interesting cases in neurology.
>>15558993
you can even destructively read them, works even better for timing. make it painless and you have a winner. all you really need is collect the whole data and at no time have two instances running at the same time. works just fine.
I don't care about your lamentations, most of you will do it anyway if the chance presents itself. stop being bitches about it and let's hurry the fuck up.

[Anonymous No.15559130]

>>15558302
This is a great thought experiment but you just described functionalism. You could replace the atoms with wood chips and the argument would still hold true. It has nothing to do with brains. Take any kind of structured matter like a tree and follow the same logic

[Anonymous No.15559136]

>>15558302
Did someone say atomizer?
https://youtu.be/73t0A8cPRZw

[Anonymous No.15559161]

>>15558993
>memories are encoded as electric fields which you would lose in this process
The brain isn't a SSD.

[Anonymous No.15559165]

>>15558302
Correct; you would be a clone and you would not be aware of it.

Would rather speculate what would happen if you would be atomized, stored digitally as a 1 to 1 copy and reassembled in a later period. You would; essentially 100% be a clone.

>>15558982
Brings up a good point; it would be necessary to put the brain in a comatose state first before atomizing; as you would lose any energy state of your brain during the process. Star Trek beam me up style is pure scifi.

[Anonymous No.15559207]

>>15559165
>Correct; you would be a clone and you would not be aware of it.
why do you make a distinction between original and clone. they should be interchangeable for any reason apart from wanting to know chronologically which of the bodies was "first". hence being the clone "and not be aware of it" is exactly why it doesn't really matter. it's the same thing, it's not a lesser thing, nor a greater one. it's exactly the same thing, so it really doesn't matter which of the two 3D arrangements of matter manifests you. as long as only one of them does at a time, it's always the you you've ever known, in complete totality, dreams and spirit and all that.
we're closer than we realize, to actually test this:
https://openworm.org/
and more interestingly:
https://youtu.be/bEXefdbQDjw
my proposed simple experiment is to like train a network of neurons for say playing doom, then capturing that data and perfectly replicating it, the neurons positions + connections, to high degree, and see what you made knows how to play naturally doom, at the exact skill level as the one you copied it from.
this is clearly a good indicator for what I'm proposing, and I think it's not that hard to pull off, as an experiment.

[Anonymous No.15559246]

>>15559207
>why do you make a distinction between original and clone.
Because as the outside observer; the one running the atomization process on the person, you will observe a complete change of state of that person.

From a structured body to a cloud of particles back to a new strructured body.

Given the Quantum Nature of particles that will never be the exact reconstruction but what was originally atomized. There will be a loss of information unless you find a way to freeze time during that process.

If we are going with the whole ship of Theseus analogy; the old you -physically- is gone, destroyed during the deconstruction/atomization process. The new you is a new physical representation based on the blueprint generated from the atomization process.

You are, objecively, a clone.

From the subjective point of view, you would not be aware of the atomization / rebuild process, given it -to you- would be instantly. Unless told else, you would experience yourself as the original Ship.

[Anonymous No.15559524]

>>15559246
>There will be a loss of information
there is always a constant loss of information.
this discussion means nothing without some defined limits. my best estimation is that a molecular scanner/printer is enough, and I am sure we can use even lower resolution, at least partially. at this level clearly you won't get a theoretical ideal perfect copy, that doesn't mean shit tho, relative to who you are.
cloning does not imply the very least the clone is any less you than your original body is. my original statement says that we suppose we can perfectly scan/print back. that actually is meant to imply that we capture all the needed information, not really all that you can capture.
if you want to scan and 3D print an object, you can just photograph it with your phone and one of those apps. that might be good enough for intended use of said object. you don't really gain any more useful info by scanning it with xray scanner or shit like that, you get my point.
>You are, objecively, a clone.
no, you are not, as you cannot tell the clone from the original, especially in a double-blind experiment. without assembly-specific artefacts you'd have no way of figuring out which is the original and which is the clone. as long as the information is there you don't have any points on this, you're just saying nonsensical strings of words.

[Anonymous No.15559866]

>no, you are not, as you cannot tell the clone from the original, especially in a double-blind experiment. without assembly-specific artefacts you'd have no way of figuring out which is the original and which is the clone. as long as the information is there you don't have any points on this, you're just saying nonsensical strings of words.

And there we disagree on, it is the definition of what a clone is. I would agree with you will not be able to differentiate between the original and the new version. However; the new version will always remain a copy of the original object, based on the information gained from the -let`s assume near perfect- scan.

Let us see it this way, given we only need to extract the structural information of the person, and we could extract that information without destructive measures (eg. atomization), then create a new you on a different location; given that we have all the necessary resource components available to create the new you.

By definition the new you would be a near perfect -copy- of the original you; a clone based on the structural information obtained from the scan. Each version would experience itself as the original version. It is only on the process of atomization of the original that you would be able to define this then as teleportation. You could even generate multiple new versions of you on various locations given the necessary resources as long as the scanned information is available.

It is the destructive nature of this teleportation process that would define the teleported person as the original:

IF the process of teleportation is only executed in one direction
IF the condition of atomization of the original person is met; eg. the original body is lost
IF the condition of desctructive measures are met on the scanned information after print

Only then you would be able to define the new teleported you as the original version.
What is original now is the current information defining you. Eg. new you.

[Anonymous No.15559891]

>>15558412
Listen not to the haters, this is a scientific question and I enjoy reading your posts.

[Anonymous No.15559962]

>>15558480
Am I stupid for wanting my brain be scanned so I can technically live forever? would that still be me or does it even matter if I die? is the "me" from 1 second or 5 min ago is already dead and someone else with the same memory what makes me different from other humans beside my memories? do you think this is why religion is a think so the population can cope with this.

[Anonymous No.15560372]

>>15559962
there is an issue which is kinda weird. there is some fuckery happening when you get scanned.
you'd think you go to scan your brain then walk out, but it seems there might be chances for you to pop in the next clone when you get scanned, IF and whenever a clone is assembled from the information you scanned. for that clone of you, it's like you went to get scanned and popped into the clone's body next instant.
your clone will always have that experience, one second in the scanner the next in the clone (well not second, whatever the process takes as time) which is kind of weird. if that data is ever used to build a clone of you, then you have chances of switching to it when you get scanned.

[Anonymous No.15560385]

>>15560372
uhm anon.. we can't scan the human brain yet, do you live in the future or something.

[Anonymous No.15560440]

>>15560385
>yet
well this is exactly my point, we need to hurry with this.

[Anonymous No.15560486]

>>15558302
I would put it like this; To atomize the subject in a way that guarantees a self-same arrangement the moment later you're evoking a sort of neg-entropic gluon, or a guarantee of the pattern preservation not allowed by nature. This doesn't matter for a hypothetical but until such a force exists, that would be akin to negating the destructive aspect, you'rebfighting a lot of real-world consequences of atomization.

The reason I'm even going there in pure thought is not because I did have breakfast yesterday, but because this is one of those hypotheticals where we have to buck a priori to make it "go."

To paraphrase one anon, you need this to work in unmarried bachelorverse.

>inb4 a computer could do it
At this point you may as well count on Jesus Christ and start plugging him into your models.

[Anonymous No.15560795]

bump