MInd is not in the brain

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MInd is not in the brain Anonymous Wed Jul 5 05:36:24 2023 No.15543221 [Reply] [Original]

Rather, the brain is in mind.

It is an icon representing your mental activity to other mental agents in the universal mind. An icon will of course coorelate with what it represents, so neural correlates are accounted for in this view.

Just like that, the hard problem no longer exists. The brain is accounted for. Mind is accounted for. The world is accounted for.

You are the shard of an infinite universal mind. Some call it god. Some call it all. Some call it one. Some call it nothing.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 05:42:02 2023 No.15543228
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>>15543221
>Just like that, the hard problem no longer exists. The brain is accounted for. Mind is accounted for. The world is accounted for.
Where is it accounted for? You just dogmatically said "it just is, okay?" Your flawed idealism is just as anti-intellectual as Dennett's eliminativism. In fact they're trivially isomorphic. The only framework yielding ontological answers and epistemological insights is Cartesian dualism with quantum mechanics as its mechanism of interaction.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 05:47:12 2023 No.15543235

>>15543228

> Where is it accounted for?

1. Consciousness is the fundamental ontological substrate, and therefore does not need explanation. Every worldview has to have at least one unexplaibed, rockbottom, entity. For the idealist, it is consciousness.

2. The brain and its correlations with experience are accounted for because the brain is the image or icon of your conscious process. An icon of course correlates with what it represents, so neural correlates are accounted for.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 05:54:11 2023 No.15543247

>>15543221
So the mind is God? and consciousness is divine? and God (the mind) is represented by the brain? And the mind and brain, though independant, always follow each other by virtue of the brain being the minds Icon?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that what you mean? because you write in a very retarded convulated way. And the concept itself sounds a bit retarded as well.
Also, a side question, have you taken any hallucinogens recently? Psylocibin, DMT or even weed? or something else?

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 06:00:53 2023 No.15543253

>>15543247
>So the mind is God?

Your mind or consciousness is a closed off section or shard of a universal fabric of conscious. Call that universal mind whatever you like.

>God (the mind) is represented by the brain?

Your mind is represented as the icon or symbol called the body or brain. God's mind is also represented as a symbol or icon - the world around you.

> have you taken any hallucinogens recently?

No. Pure introspection into my consciousness. I gained knowledge looking inward.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 06:09:03 2023 No.15543259

>>15543235
>1. Consciousness is the fundamental ontological substrate, and therefore does not need explanation.
"It just is, okay?"

>2. The brain and its correlations with experience are accounted for because the brain is the image or icon of your conscious process.
A baseless assertion, not an explanation.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 06:23:29 2023 No.15543277

>>15543253
>universal fabric of conscious. Call that universal mind
What is the essence of this 'universal mind'? What is it's existence reliant upon? If not God, what is it?

>God's mind is also represented as a symbol or icon - the world around you.
So God has a mind as well? Does it also come from the same Universal Fabric as us, or is it different? If it does, do we share a mind with god, just as we share a mind with each other?
Also, if the world is but God's brain, then that 'universal mind' can certainly not be part of creation. So again, what is it's tangible existence? And what is God's body if his brain is the world? And by virtue of us being part of the world, aren't we but meagre parts of God's brain?

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 06:28:48 2023 No.15543280
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>studied hard
>Had a shit office job but make good money
>Have a son with wife
>He is sever autist
>He is 9yo
>Can't talk only makes weird noises
>Only play with baby toys
>He have to wear diapers because somedays he refuses to go to the bath
>Some days he becomes agresive amd destroys the house
>He only sleeps 3-4h
>No sex with wife (sex drive goes to 0 when you don't sleep a full night for years)
>Only fun thing of my life is playing some vidya in the bus to work
>Regret not being a comfy happy neet.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 06:33:31 2023 No.15543283 >>15543221 Yeah alright, that's very cool I guess.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 06:48:00 2023 No.15543299 >tranny thread

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 09:55:56 2023 No.15543511

>>15543221
Just reverse the problem..

Its not anymore how A produces B but rather how B produces A.. and no you cannot hide behinde mysticism. We can observe how things work (no matter if they are representation or not).
So the question for idealism is then: How does a mental substance create representation of physical substance.

Idealism is just 180° version of materialism.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 09:57:25 2023 No.15543513 >>15543221 nope. >>>/x/

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 09:59:55 2023 No.15543517 File: 70 KB, 892x765, cia_mind.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Everyone above 120IQ knows it OP Everyone below 120IQ will insist you're the stupid one

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:03:24 2023 No.15543520 >>15543517 Why do you people allways play IQ card? You are like 5th anon in two days that does this (and is proponent of idealism). This is very interesting observation (and no not a positive one dont flatter yourself).

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:05:16 2023 No.15543524

>>15543520
Because you people are too stupid to understand idealism, so you cling on to your failing paradigm and the IQ is merely a meme representing your overall stupidity. If you're intelligent enough, you figure out that reality = mind at 6 years old, if you're retarded you won't figure it out ever, because you're just too dumb

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:07:09 2023 No.15543525 >>15543524 But anon i know people with 130+IQ and are materialists.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:08:11 2023 No.15543526

Here's an extremely easy proof that reality = mind that an intelligent 6 year old would understand.

1. Everything you ever experienced, you experienced through the mind
2. All the concepts about the material universe, you experienced mentally
3. Everything you think you know about the universe is constructed within your mind
4. Everything you ever can experience about the universe, comes through your mind
5. Therefore, mentation comes before everything else and without a mind, you cannot even talk about reality

You'd have to be a true retard not to get it. Yet here we are, so many brainwashed people thinking matter comes before mind. Keep screeching how matter creates mind though, it's delightful.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:08:56 2023 No.15543527 >>15543524 I mean look at your picrel There are fields in fundament of reallity thus reallity is hologram (a complex one). And you claim you have 120+IQ? Nigga please i know people who crack beer every day in 08:00 and wouldnt draw such conclusions.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:10:30 2023 No.15543528 >>15543525 >>15543527 The IQ is a meme, I don't care if you have 200 IQ, you're still retarded if you think physics comes before mentation. Mentation creates physics, it cannot be any other way.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:16:37 2023 No.15543532

>>15543526
>. Everything you ever experienced, you experienced through the mind
>2. All the concepts about the material universe, you experienced mentally
>3. Everything you think you know about the universe is constructed within your mind
>4. Everything you ever can experience about the universe, comes through your mind
>5. Therefore, mentation comes before everything else and without a mind, you cannot even talk about reality

1. The experiance is representation of external world (meaning there is something outaide the mind)
>If you want to disprove this, lets take out visual cortex of yours and ask you what you see.

2. Idk what this even mean. Concepts are not experience. Concepts are predicated on experiance. Meaning, you construct representation of representation.

3. To bad i cant construct unicorn with my mind...

4. See 1,2,3.

5. Lol nope.. again easly testable hypothesis. We will wait for you to have kid, take his brain out and then we will wait until he concludes what you are saying.

Every single premiss of yours is flawed garbage that can be easly disproved. How about you bring me a persone who is blinde since birth and ask him to tell me how mona lisa looks like?

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:17:57 2023 No.15543533

>>15543532
This is why I said you have to be intelligent to get it. You're clearly not.

I don't want to debate you because it's a waste of time, but I will leave you with a thought experiment. Suppose there is a universe with no one to observe it. How you can tell this universe exists?

I doubt you'll figure it out but I suppose it's worth a try.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:19:30 2023 No.15543535 >>15543528 >Mentation creates physics Yeah.. people fell from earth before Newton discovered gravity

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:21:04 2023 No.15543537

>>15543535
You're really amazingly stupid, and you don't fucking get it at all. 100 years from now when idealism is the norm arguments like yours will look childish, but for now you still have the majority of retards supporting your paradigm, so you think you look bright. To people who have figured this out and are ahead of our time, you look like an idiot.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:21:17 2023 No.15543538 >>15543533 If you think (if you think at all) that ignoring facts to keep ulive your narative is intelligent behavior then i am very concerned.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:22:09 2023 No.15543539 >>15543538 All the facts you've ever known, you've known because you experienced them with your mind. Unfortunately your mind is so retarded it doesn't understand that simple "fact".

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:22:39 2023 No.15543541 >>15543537 Hey buddy.. dont get all angry now just because you feel threatened outaide your echo chamber

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:36:18 2023 No.15543552 >>15543221 Elemental Elementalism 1.1.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:41:03 2023 No.15543558

>>15543539
Again.. you dont experience with your mind. Your mind uses experience to create representation of external world. We know this trough shit tones of experimentation.
If i take youe visual cortex out you wont have visual experiance and quale that are conected to it.

Please atleast have some respect and learn the definitions so we can have normal conversatiom where you dont reframe things to fit your worldview.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:43:00 2023 No.15543561

>>15543511
>Its not anymore how A produces B but rather how B produces A.

No it isn't. Matter is the external appearance of mental processes.That stop sign outside my home is an icon representing mental activity. Same with the grass. Same with that stone. Matter for the idealist are images, symbols, icons - all of which are visual conscious experiences.

There is no hard problem in idealism because everything is consciousness. You could try to say the same thing as a materialist, but the qualialess matter you speak of is defined in such a way as to have nothing to do with consciousness, so that worldview is doomed to the Hard Problem.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 10:50:15 2023 No.15543569

>>15543558
If I take a bunch of electronics out of your TV set, it won't work right either. You're only proving your ignorance and inability for abstract thought of any kind. You're arrogant and you think because your culture told you X, that X holds universally. Well guess what jackass. The universe couldn't give a shit what you believe. It works mentally. And if you still don't believe me pop 5 grams of shrooms in silent darkness and see for yourself.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 11:11:14 2023 No.15543602 >>15543561 And i am asking you how does mental substance create matterial appearance?

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 11:13:31 2023 No.15543605

>>15543569
No i am trying to show you that you assumptions are false.
You do not experience with the mind, the mind is created out of experience.
It is commonsense really.
You are not consciouss of things you do not experiance.
You know what.. i juat had enlightement. Why should i spend my time arguing with a fool?
Good day gents

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 11:20:27 2023 No.15543609

>>15543605
>No i am trying to show you that you assumptions are false.
I'm trying to show you that yours are false. The problem is mine is in the minority, so you subconsciously just assume you're right and call it a day, without giving the position I'm defending an honest thought.

>You do not experience with the mind, the mind is created out of experience.
That makes no sense. Experience is the mind.

>It is commonsense really.
No, it's not. You're using weird semantics in order to confuse myself and satisfy your own bias. You're not using critical thought at all.

>You are not consciouss of things you do not experiance.
No shit.

>You know what.. i juat had enlightement. Why should i spend my time arguing with a fool?
Indeed.

>Good day gents
G'day.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 13:02:22 2023 No.15543690 >>15543517 >CIA Ah yes, the gang of high-school dropouts who have nothing better to do but scour 4chan for le mean messages

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 13:04:18 2023 No.15543693 >>15543221 >>>/x/ is that way fucktard

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 13:20:32 2023 No.15543710
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I am not conscious, and neither are you.

I am not conscious, and neither are you.

I am not conscious, and neither are you.

I am not conscious, and neither are you.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 13:51:33 2023 No.15543736 >>15543602 Material appearance is an image. Images are conscious perceptions. There is no entirely new category to explain.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 15:32:47 2023 No.15543833 >>15543736 So in summary, what you are saying is: >Everything is mental but it represents it self as physical to consciouss observer which is mental himself. ?

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 15:40:05 2023 No.15543838

>>15543609
>you subconsciously just assume you're right and call it a day, without giving the position I'm defending an honest thought.

Not at all i was idealist my self who was persuaded by facts to stop holding such view.

Easyest part of my life was to conclude thst everything is mental. And sometimes anon i do want to slip back into this narative. But it simply does not solve problems. I still have urge to create map representing mechanics of this reallity no matter if it is this or that that is not based on such simple (and i dare to say superficial) answers.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 16:47:26 2023 No.15543956 File: 68 KB, 750x821, d4y86wx7qja61.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] The image that btfo'd /sci/

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 17:08:28 2023 No.15543982 >>15543956 >use my mind to imagine becoming a billionaire immediately >it doesn't happen idealists btfo (unironically).

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 17:44:25 2023 No.15544071 >>15543982 >>it doesn't happen are you absolutely sure about that? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H_6QdNALVc This video isn't some random one off or fluke kind of thing. This phenomenon is studied and it is repeatable.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 18:35:33 2023 No.15544177

>>15544071
This is very very weak argument anon.
While it is true motivation can produce certain behavior. Its causal role is (IN not OF) mind. Meaning, it is a brain process for which there is much research done.

Apart from that, if i got your point corect, you wanted to show how mind changes reallity. It does but not in a sense of your claims. Yes, we can be motivated by our thoughts to do certain behavior and trough that change SOMETHING in reallity. But that is indirect influence.
If it where a direct influence, you could just trough thinking change color of an red applee into a blue one. Now that is direct change of reallity.

Not to mention, there are things you cannot change (if we are going down thag path). Such as laws that govern reallity. You cannot influence with your mind if grabity will exist or not.

So in summary, you have alot of explaining and clarification to do before throwing "Mind has causal role" premiss.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 18:45:12 2023 No.15544203 >>15543228 >You just dogmatically said "it just is, okay?" lmao this retard doesn't understand what a postulate is.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 18:47:25 2023 No.15544210 >>15544203 >postulate = I can assert any bullshit and don't need to provide any proof or argument Cool story bro. How many people do you intend to convince this way?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 18:48:09 2023 No.15544213 >>15544071 i said become a billionaire immediately. that means in the next second. my mind can imagine it, yet it's not achievable.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 18:49:23 2023 No.15544216 >>15544210 lmao this retard literally doesn't understand what a postulate is.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 18:51:59 2023 No.15544219 >>15544216 >noooo, stop questioning my bullshit, it's a postulate, your not allowed to question postulates, you evil chud How many liters of soi did you drink today?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 18:55:15 2023 No.15544224 >>15543221 >I was raised Catholic and have the Greek brain disease where words are literal magic things

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 18:58:00 2023 No.15544227 >>15544219 lmao this retard is so sure of himself yet he can only argue against made up strawmen quotes.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 19:01:57 2023 No.15544231 >>15544227 Prove me wrong, lmao. Oh wait, you can't. Everything I'm posting is a postulate.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 19:57:28 2023 No.15544341

Talking to an idealist feels like talking to a chatbot pre GPT.

>How does consciousness arise?
>It just is.
>Okay, how does the physical world arise from consciousness?
>It just does.
>Why does the physical world follow the same laws consistently?
>It just does.
>Why is the physical world consistent across different observers?
>It just is.

Idealists are unable to answer a single question. Their entire theory is based on making everything an axiom and refusing further investigation. Zero explanatory power. Pure anti-intellectualism.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 20:07:48 2023 No.15544376

>>15544341
You dont need to explain shit if you postulate a reallity riden of same laws under which the "illusionary" reallity works anon.
Its lawless land. Anything goes. And i still wait for an idealist to give me his deduction on how did he conclude anything by only knowing that only thing we know is our consciousness.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 20:43:27 2023 No.15544453 >>15543228 Didn't read his post?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:00:34 2023 No.15544510 >>15544453 You're stupid.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:03:37 2023 No.15544523 >>15543221 Kind of, but consciousness is not subjet to space, so it's not exactly that either is "in" the other. A brain is just a means for consciousness to experience life.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:04:42 2023 No.15544528 >>15544523 So what exactly happens when persone is in coma? Does this consciousness entity become detached from the body?

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:05:23 2023 No.15544531 >>15543693 Except this bread is specifically about the /sci/ brainlets that cry about "muh hard problem!!!!", fucktard. /x/ already knows all this, OP is trying to educate /sci/tards such as (you)rself

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:18:19 2023 No.15544565 >>15544531 How can someone so enlightened be so angry, that is what i do not understand.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:27:11 2023 No.15544584 >>15544528 Not sure, likely same as when asleep >>15544565 Because humans do a lot of fucked up stuff to this world. And because I was replying to an anon who so rudely called OP a fucktard so I was just giving him back what he gave out.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:30:26 2023 No.15544596 >>15544584 OP is a fucktard and so are you. You /x/ morons keep shitting up this board with your anti-intellectual and anti-science garbage. Go back where you came from. If you reject facts and logic you're wrong here.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:42:41 2023 No.15544618 >>15544596 You are a fucktard and are the one that rejects facts and logic. Imagine thinking that physical reality could create consciousness LOL dumbfuck

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:53:49 2023 No.15544657 >>15544618 Keep strawmanning. I never said this. Fucktard.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 21:55:39 2023 No.15544663 >>15544510 >no argument Top kek

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 22:02:59 2023 No.15544689 >>15544663 It was a factual observation. Your intellectual inability to understand my post implies that your IQ is low.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 22:13:20 2023 No.15544711 File: 60 KB, 631x658, 1688566216340593.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 23:21:05 2023 No.15544878 >>15544689 Wow this guy >>15544203 was right

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 23:24:15 2023 No.15544885 >>15543221 >Rather, the brain is in mind. Circular argument fallacy.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 23:26:07 2023 No.15544890

The big mystery is how your mind creates stuff. If you can figure out that mystery you will have the power to control your external world and no longer suffer from it. It is true that is the big goal. Its not even goofy or cartoonish... why should you have to starve or get sick or suffer? If you can figure out how to stop going through this shit then you win. I mean you obviously don't figure it out by being a pedantic shithead.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 23:30:30 2023 No.15544903

Logic is really the structure of language. It is how we explain ideas and such. Since language and words can be powerful they tried to restrain it with pedantic logic. But it isn't a strict logic it is a fluid logic. Language is poetic. But when you are too scared of writing poetry you might be tricked into thinking being pedantic is what matters.

>>	Anonymous Wed Jul 5 23:32:59 2023 No.15544906 File: 17 KB, 200x198, NPC_wojak_meme.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15543221 Yes computer program is not a cpu

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 23:44:50 2023 No.15544927

>>15544890
The problem is that the ‘external’ world is the internal world created by your own brain. We would be zombies if we did not reconstruct realities to be consistent to how we process information around us. I think there exist ways to modify that existing reconstruction, maybe so that you are in paradise or some bliss, which may not even be necessary if the underlying reality is consistent on its own to being heaven without having to modify the functions of the brain that structure our reality. The underlying reality that gives rise to the perceived reality by the brain though is much more limited by physical laws, so it’s much harder to implement a world where you can have godlike powers or things that aren’t consistent with our mutual understanding of the universe.

Anonymous Wed Jul 5 23:49:30 2023 No.15544936

>>15544618
imagine thinking shit without evidence. don't you need an explanation for WHY wouldn't your consciousness be created by fucking physical reality? why would you make something up and also believe in it, with no fucking proof? isn't that like seriously retarded? are you mentally a child?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 01:43:31 2023 No.15545061 >>15543982 Why do you think everything goes in Idealism? That's just your metaphysical prejudice.

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 04:14:35 2023 No.15545261
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>>15543221
True, and NDEs prove this. As one NDE researcher said that he does not know anyone who has read the literature on NDEs who has not been convinced by it.

NDErs say that we are eternal and will go to heaven unconditionally when we die and that idealism is true and this is a simulated existence.

And NDEs are more real than this world, in every way. For example, they are more consistent experiences, illustrated well by this quote:

>"For me, life is sort of like the haunted house. ... You're eternal, you have billions of lives, so knowing that you're going to come in just for one to have an experience, though it may be judged as tough, or difficult, or scary, you actually chose it because you knew it was just going to be an experience, you know it's no big deal. You understand on the other side that this part, life, is actually the dream, and you just wake up after. It's no different than one dream you had last night, out of a lifetime of dreams. This life that you're having right now is just one, it's just a blip."

So just like life is more consistent than our dreams (dreams last a few moments, life has been the same for decades), so too is the NDE reality more consistent than life (life has been the same for decades, the NDE reality has been the same for forever, for way more than trillions of years). Here this point is elaborated more on:

https://youtu.be/U00ibBGZp7o

And it is instantly evident to NDErs that heaven is real too, even atheists:

>"It's real to us when we're in it, but once I was there in heaven I realized that's more real, that felt more real, and it made much more sense to me than anything here. This is kind of nonsensical at times. In heaven, it's so clear, so real, so rational, so logical, but yet emotional and loving at the same time. Immediately I knew that was real and this was not. Immediately."

From https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mysteries-consciousness/202204/does-afterlife-obviously-exist

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 06:09:03 2023 No.15545430

>>15545261
>NDErs say that we are eternal and will go to heaven unconditionally when we die and that idealism is true and this is a simulated existence.

My gosh look, hear me out, people had a trip because chemicals in brain went shit wild near death, they have seen shit so that must mean everything is true.

>Empirical evidance
>No evidance of such sort
>Only subjective takes

How do you even keep on with this stuff

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 06:11:55 2023 No.15545433

>>15544584
>Not sure, likely same as when asleep

Likely? And what exactly is happening when we sleep anon?

>Because humans do a lot of fucked up stuff to this world.

You mean like calling people retards because they disagree with you? Calling them low iq?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 06:15:45 2023 No.15545438 >another day has passed and the eliminative idealist cucks haven't answered a single question >they still be hiding behind dogmatism and ad hominems

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 06:17:56 2023 No.15545441 >>15545438 >Another day passed and idealists think arguments are not arguments if they go against theyr dogma >They still use bully tactics to push narative instead of providing deductive evidances for the claims they make

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 09:08:31 2023 No.15545595 >>15545061 because it goes in my mind

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 10:38:35 2023 No.15545645 >>15545595 NTA but ... you can't even fully control a lucid dream, what makes you think you could control waking reality?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 10:55:11 2023 No.15545654 >>15545645 idealists claim reality is determined by the mind, and i have a mind.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 16:35:24 2023 No.15546066 File: 51 KB, 474x453, th-1181398074.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 16:48:21 2023 No.15546080 >>15543221 So when I smash your fucking head until you pass out I'm actually directly beating a portion of the universal mind? That's cool I guess.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 16:56:33 2023 No.15546092 >>15544890 >If you can figure out that mystery you will have the power to control your external world and no longer suffer from- AAAAAAAH I JUST GOT RUN OVER BY A CAR, MY FUCKING LEG

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 17:01:39 2023 No.15546100 >>15546080 You never do this though.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 17:04:55 2023 No.15546102 >>15546100 Sadly true. If there was some bully to hang every idealist upside down and smack some sense into them for a bit they would stop confusing the directionality of cause and effect.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 17:13:18 2023 No.15546111 >>15546102 Haha keep on coping and seething dude.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 19:24:36 2023 No.15546452 >>15543235 >does not need explanation >there is no hard problem if i just declare that i dont need to explain it philosophy ladies and gentlemen.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 19:30:58 2023 No.15546471 I am still waiting for deductive argument for any knowledge derived from only one fact: >Consciousness is only thing we know Week 5th curently Cmon idealists buy me. You just have to give me a straightforward info deduced from this sole fact.

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 19:33:27 2023 No.15546479

>>15546471
Your mistake is believing that consciousness works on the same principles as the material world. It does not. If you did a potent psychedelic once in your life you'd understand this. It cannot be explained or evaluated. Because in that domain the very reason you use to cut things apart is invalidated. But your head is so firmly up your own ass that you'll never figure it out, unless you actually smoke a bowl of DMT, then maybe you will figure it out.

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 19:49:17 2023 No.15546514

>>15546479
Not deductive argument

>But your head is so firmly up your own ass that you'll never figure it out, unless you actually smoke a bowl of DMT, then maybe you will figure it out.

Yet my head is up my ass?
Maybe ill figure it out?

Provide me a deductive argument or dont reply to me with your subjective interpretations. If i wanted interpretations i would use psychadelics still to this day and even better go ask children in 5th grades.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 19:51:07 2023 No.15546519 >>15546479 How come the psychedelics work? Or any psychoactive for that matter?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 19:52:30 2023 No.15546520 File: 46 KB, 600x600, 12b456dab8f83b1e6f07c0713566c6c2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>15546479 >It cannot be explained or evaluated

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 19:55:59 2023 No.15546533 >>15546519 This is probably stream of answers: >Because they are signs representing "insert some mind stuff" >i know that because i did DMT trip and didnt deduce it trough logic >If you dont get it you are lowIQ (psychological aspect of brain ;) )

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 20:06:58 2023 No.15546561 >>15546533 My favorite is when supposed idealists say shit like "oh you shouldn't eat/drink [insert whatever processed junk food] because the toxins will accumulate and calcify your pituitary gland"

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 20:16:09 2023 No.15546582

>>15546452

How many times do I need to tell you dishonest tools.

Every theory of the world will boil down to one or more unexplained GIVEN(s). An ideal theory will have the least givens.

If you explain one thing in terms of another, in terms of another, in terms of another, you have to hit bedrock.

We choose consciousness to be the bedrock. You, foolishly, choose matter to be the bedrock. I'm not dishonest enough to ask smugly "okay, how does matter arise" because that your ontological bedrock.

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 20:17:53 2023 No.15546588
File: 547 KB, 860x838, pepe.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>>15543235
>because the brain is the image or icon of your conscious process. An icon of course correlates with what it represents, so neural correlates are accounted for.
what means?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 20:18:33 2023 No.15546591 >>15545595 idealism is not neccesarily solipsim. Who all of reality goes on in my mind alone or your mind alone?

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 20:24:08 2023 No.15546610

>>15546588

Let's put on our Materialism goggles for a moment to explain.

Fire does not do anything. It is just the image of combustion.

Lightning doesn't do anything. It is just the image of electrical discharge.

Let us put on our Idealist goggles now.

In the same way that fire and lightning are just images of a fundamental process, the brain is just the constructed image of the conscious activity of an entity. It does not do anything.

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 20:47:49 2023 No.15546671

>>15546610
But combustion and electrical discharge are material (micro-)processes that, in aggregate, appear through our material senses (eyes) as fire, lightning.
So you mean that the conscious activity itself constructs the brain as a representation of itself? Why does it need to do that? After all, you can have conscious activity without knowing you have a brain, like kids who haven't learned about it. And your conscioussness can be altered without you being aware of it, when someone spikes your drink or whatever.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 21:01:45 2023 No.15546716 >>15546582 >An ideal theory will have the least givens. By that criterion idealism is the worst possible theory. It explains nothing and takes literally everything as a given.

>>	Barkun Demi-GodofSCI !hax6YPhEF6 Thu Jul 6 21:05:32 2023 No.15546722 No offense, the chances are you ain't wording it properly anyway, might as well go onward derping until it naturally flows out. You got a long way to go...(I'm not that far off the ultimate subliminal pain soothed word)

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 21:57:53 2023 No.15546867

>>15546514
>provide me objective evidence about subjective experience
You are so stupid, it's fucking hilarious. Literally go and do ayahuasca in the middle of the jungle and then when you come back with your pants down maybe you'll fucking understand that what you're asking for is absurd. Your paradigm CANNOT encompass consciousness, it is too weak. It like trying to explain quantum principles using Newtonian physics. It's an impossibility.

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 22:18:05 2023 No.15546901 >>15546519 Why wouldn't they fucking work? Ever took a drug in your dreams and it worked? Well, if they work in a dream, why not in reality?

>>	Anonymous Thu Jul 6 22:30:18 2023 No.15546922 >>15546514 >projection of my imagination asks other projections to prove they exist Now you fuckers are getting it. None of you exist. I like this patch.

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 23:32:35 2023 No.15547020

>>15546901
>Ever took a drug in your dreams and it worked?
Nope. Even eating/drinking in dreams doesn't work (doesn't satiate or get rid of the taste of stale saliva in my mouth.)
>Well, if they work in a dream, why not in reality?
I'm asking how come they work in reality. "Why not" is not an answer. We call them psychedelics because they consistently produce specific effects that other things don't.

Anonymous Thu Jul 6 23:47:35 2023 No.15547037

evolutionary speaking it would work out if some plant gave you a trip that would "set you straight" so you can keep chugging along and raping women.
whatever you get to see/feel during the trip, has to work so you quit whining like a little bitch, that life is hard and shit like that. might even give you eh purpoise in life. as long as it works it stays.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 00:21:14 2023 No.15547077

>>15547020
I took LSD in dream once and got pretty much into the same exact headspace inside of a dream. The only difference was it was interrupted earlier because the dream switched to something else, but for a time it felt exactly the same as LSD would, same type of bizarre waving of reality and concepts and synesthesia.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 00:30:18 2023 No.15547087

>>15547077
LSD flashbacks are a well-known phenomenon, you had some brain glitch during sleep that stimulated one and the processes that construct your dreams represented it as "taking" LSD because obviously that kind of stimulation was already associated with taking LSD in memory.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 00:34:34 2023 No.15547093 >>15547077 >>15547087 Either that or he just woke up thinking he dreamed about that. What, you thought your memories of your dreams are reliable?

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 00:35:39 2023 No.15547095

>>15547077
>>15547087

>LSD agonizes serotonin receptors
>experience gets logged in memory structures of brain as highly stimulating and novel, thereby cementing itself in memory long-term and granting hypersensitivity to neural pathways that depolarized during drug experience

>Later on, something happens to partially emulate sequence of neural depolarization similar to that of drug experience

>Hypersensitivity in neurons associated with drug experience leads to depolarization of same neurons in same or similar order, leading to flashback experience lasting only a fraction of original experience

>Basically PTSD but without the negative emotional experience

It's called HPPD, and it's a band

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 00:38:32 2023 No.15547102 >>15547037 Nigger I'm not asking the evolutionary reason why it works, I'm asking HOW it works. Why does ingesting specific chemicals make "you" (allegedly just a part of muh universal overmind) trip out and/or die.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 00:44:12 2023 No.15547104

>>15547102

Depends on the drug bitch! Phenethylamines like LSD or mescaline literally cross the blood brain barrier and act as some of the serotonin group neurotransmitters in our brain thereby giving us an amplified and unusual version of what is theoretically a naturally possible experience. Alcohol and Xans block up certain synaptic junctions to GABA transmission and GABA is basically the oil that greases the wheel of the mind, so we literally slooooow the fuck down when we drink or xan out. Coke and Meth juice the fuck out of the dopamine wells in your nucleus accumbens. The list goes on

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:04:49 2023 No.15547120

>>15547102
let me explain:
there two categories of people. truth-seekers and must-protect-feefees.
the truth seekers have adopted models of sorting reality so they get to Truth, no matter what that is.
the must-protect-feefees have developed models which shield them from certain things. kinda like duping yourself into believing shit.
now, when you take psychedelics, they specifically affect your brain, instead of your dick. so they basically just pump up certain parts of the brain, so the result is that whatever was there, is now supercharged.
yes, you do "drop the ego", BUT...you are working with the same models for reality which are specifically crafted to either show you the Truth, either to bullshit you and thus protecting your feefees.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:05:41 2023 No.15547124

>>15544890
>? If you can figure out how to stop going through this shit then you win.
getting high is a way of being free. your mind is like an ocean. constant waves crashing at the surface. all sorts of crazy things deep underneath.

a drunk mind leads to a sober heart

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:07:19 2023 No.15547126

>>15544903
>Since language and words can be powerful they tried to restrain it with pedantic logic.
Ye's coffee table analogy to kimmel was spot on. your enemies always have this nasty habit of twisting your words and using them against you

imagine your mind can split open the same way your wrist or ankle can break

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:14:37 2023 No.15547136

>>15547120
>must-protect-feefees.
pigs are always like this and parrot things like 'stick stones break my bones words never hurt me' surely something their pig mother taught them to protect them from meanies. why are some people pigs.

>>15547120
>the truth seekers have adopted models of sorting reality so they get to Truth
it's reading between the lines. like i said earlier. don't you enemies have nasty habit of twisting your words and using them against you? this is where the obsession with rapping comes from.

real eyes and ears can hear evil.

>>15547120
>the must-protect-feefees have developed models which shield them from certain things
this is exactly what Ye was talking about with the coffee tables on the jimmy kimmel show

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:19:46 2023 No.15547141 >>15545261 This t. Had an NDE

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:19:59 2023 No.15547143

>>15547136
I'm not denying yourself into bullshiting yourself so you feel better. sure bro, have at it. just don't interject me with your bullshit when we're talking about science. you don't have that right, and I won't spend extra energy on protecting your feelings. I don't want to spend that energy on you, I can use it for something better. you're just creating a shitshow and you are a waste of useful energy and braincycles. you're not welcomed in scientific intellectual spaces if you whine like a little bitch. it's not that I am "hurt", it's that I'm aware of the extra burden you present, and I refuse to support you. fuck off.
you can read between the lines in fucking astrology.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:21:13 2023 No.15547147 >>15546520 Wittgenstein was speaking about the entirety of communication when he said this, not ontological proofs.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:28:14 2023 No.15547156

>>15547143 me
imagine we never look at certain things, or never look the right way, because there's people's narratives we need to protect, and we never get to fucking solve cancer.
and even if we eventually do even if way later, how the fuck do you justify the extra avoidable deaths of people who might have been saved if we just hurried the fuck up?
are you seriously putting your feeling above other people's lives? how the fuck should we accept such a monstrosity of behavior? in fucking science???

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:34:11 2023 No.15547162 Death to all materialist nihilists

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:38:32 2023 No.15547165 >>15547162 yes but material reality seems to generate all your muh spirit bullshit so you should be thankful

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:39:05 2023 No.15547166 >>15547165 It's the other way around

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:42:46 2023 No.15547171 >>15547166 did the voices in your head tell you that? or any of the ghosts and aliens?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:44:18 2023 No.15547173 >>15547171 no, my pragmatism told me that my perspective shifted over time to that which I found to be most beneficial

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:47:05 2023 No.15547176

>>15547173
>my perspective shifted over time to that which I found to be most beneficial
you are not wrong here buddy. I said the same thing.
problem is, some of us accept getting some bruises on the way, in the hopes of getting to objective truth.
I am unironically for your safe-spaces and your little corners where you can feel safe. I'm ok with the idea. problem is when this fuckery comes and slows down science, that's a big problem. you seriously need to justify such behavior.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:53:17 2023 No.15547190

>>15547176
your objective truth is kind of silly
why do you think I mentioned nihilism?
it's the clearest example of what kind of harm such seeking out of "objective truth" has to offer
because of science we have significantly progressed materially, but what's the point of that, if it resulted in most of our life's becoming empty and dull?
what are you trying to achieve?

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 01:58:02 2023 No.15547192 >>15543526 I mean we exist in the illusion created by the mind but that doesn't mean the illusion isnt just an interpretation of a material reality converted into a form we are capable of understanding.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 02:00:21 2023 No.15547194

>>15547190
just because you are afraid of anything new does not mean that is for the better of the human race, to just avoid certain subjects. we must be stronger than that and conquer our weaknesses.
all of your judgements are based on what you already know, you are seriously missing information that could completely change what you think should happen. you cannot account for missing information and be sure you took the right decision. it's quite retarded.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 02:00:39 2023 No.15547195 >>15543535 Would this mean in the elder days when most people viewed the world through the view of magic and myths that magic existed and retroactively disappeared once we converted to a more empirical world view?

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 02:04:03 2023 No.15547196

>>15547195
it's the other way around. people are still doing it because it started with it, and it's very hard to ignore.
it's kinda like sex drive, it's there, and must be satisfied, you have a system dedicated to that shit. you will know it's there.
you can either be a god and control yourself, or give into chimp impulses and edge it constantly on all kinds of stimulants. religious zealots are religious edging coomers that are under the influence of that part of the brain. they have no control over it, it controls their decision making.
we need to seriously understand the implications.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 02:11:49 2023 No.15547200

>>15547195
>magic existed
no, it was just only that they didn't have knowledge about the environment they were in, and so magic was the best approximation they could come up with.
magic is still the best aproximation we can come up with, if we lack knowledge. some alien shit would look magic, because that's what we humans do. start with the stupidest most obvious simple explanation and we start to develop it and ask questions. we'd still call magic shit we don't understand.
humans worshiped the sun from the very beginning and we basically evolutionary added the religious part. if anyone questioned the sun god off in the volcano. no children, eventually you get a part dedicated to that shit. just look at some fucking dogs, we did that shit, why would you think we didn't do it on ourselves? of-course we forcefully added that part that deals with worship and religion stuff.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 05:42:05 2023 No.15547468 >>15547156 >how the fuck should we accept such a monstrosity of behavior? you never been around the block? it's called being a coward

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 06:03:31 2023 No.15547493

>>15546671
>So you mean that the conscious activity itself constructs the brain as a representation of itself?

Yes.

>Why does it need to do that?

I simplified it a little. The entire body is the image of the conscious processes of an entity. The reason why you would want to represent the conscious activity of other agents is straightforward: for survival and reproduction.

The body is the most important image of course, but we can manipulate other conscious agents with our conscious activity to reveal other images of their processes like the brain.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 06:08:58 2023 No.15547497

>>15546867
Ahhh yes the clasic you are so stupid argument.
Yet i want deductive argument. Give me either argumentation or evidence or fuck of from this board.
First i have let under the radar lack of evidance now i am supposed to give you pass for lack of logic? Nope.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 06:10:00 2023 No.15547499 >>15546922 Define: >Exist For me oh you grand philosopher

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 06:12:58 2023 No.15547501 >>15547195 Clearly not for something existing does not depend on human belife. If you think that it does, then ill start beliving all of you are actually materialists.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 06:17:30 2023 No.15547509

>>15546901
Its is proven that you cannot simulate experiance in the dream that you have not experianced it in waking life.
Meaning, if you never felt how snow feels in your hands you will never simulate it in dream.
Dreams are constructed out of things you know. And yes, dreaming deamon or some shit counts in that also.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 09:39:35 2023 No.15547714

>>15547497
You're stupid merely because you cling to logic as the be-all and all-powerful. Your tiny mind cannot conceive of things that cannot be logically explained, even though it is surrounded by such things continuously - for instance the fact that you feel things or that you have free will. Yet your mechanistical way of thinking insists, no - demands, that everything should be wrappable into a logic statement such that you can write it down or put it in a neat box with a label on it. Well, if you weren't so fucking retarded, you would see the fallacy of this. But since you are, the only thing you can do is smoke DMT and see for yourself just how far up your own ass your head is.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 09:40:36 2023 No.15547715 >>15547509 >Its is proven that you cannot simulate experiance in the dream that you have not experianced it in waking life I've never experienced flying in real life but I've experienced it countless time in a dream.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 09:49:36 2023 No.15547720 >>15547165 Even science knows this isnt true

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 09:55:59 2023 No.15547725

>>15547720
you wouldn't even accept what you are. you wouldn't be able to tell who is you and who is a perfect clone of you. neither of you would have the faintest idea. I mean both would swear they are the original one. if we make it a double-blind then no one would ever know who the original you is.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 10:07:00 2023 No.15547730 >>15547720 that is literally the only way out for you. to have spiritual shit emerge from material shit. you have no other option, if you want to stay relevant go with that.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 10:13:12 2023 No.15547742 >>15547493 >for survival and reproduction. ah yes so it's all material after all. All you have said is that we have perceptions of bodies. You really dont seem to have sorted out your views on the topic. Read more.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 10:21:14 2023 No.15547757 All the materialistfags ITT should explain how matter came from nothing to begin with, until that moment you are all a bunch of faggots who can't explain even the premise upon which your worldview is buil

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 11:07:23 2023 No.15547810 >>15547757 Sorry, G_d isn't real and when you die you don't go into a magical eternal paradise. No amounts of rebranding religion as idealismses will make that fantasy real, it is only hubris of some tool-using monkeys who came down from trees.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 11:12:06 2023 No.15547819 >>15547810 >deflects from the argument instead of addressing it And yet you claim scientism is not a religion.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 12:25:31 2023 No.15547920 >>15547714 Again.. not an argument nore evidance only ad hominem.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 12:27:11 2023 No.15547922 >>15547715 Yes but you have observed flying (TV, real life [airplaines or birds]) thats the point. Same as falling. You fell once from small hight and now you have experiance of it and can manipulate it in dreams.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 12:30:22 2023 No.15547927 >>15547757 So what actually forbids something to come out of nothing when laws of nature and logic dont apply to nothing since it is nothing?

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 12:54:22 2023 No.15547960

>>15547927
It breaks logic, yet materialistfags will claim logic is completely fine. Singularities of all sorts break logic, yet materialistfags continually look away from that fact, and then they laugh at idealists for saying logic can't explain everything

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 12:55:46 2023 No.15547962 >>15547757 matter is eternal.

>>	bodhi Fri Jul 7 13:04:37 2023 No.15547970 mind is in my peen

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 13:06:17 2023 No.15547971 >>15547970 That explains why your mind is so tiny.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 13:06:24 2023 No.15547972 >>15547962 "And it just exists, because it just does, ok?" My hobby: pushing materialists out of their comfort zone

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 13:10:50 2023 No.15547975 >>15547972 >"And it just exists, because it just does, ok?" idealists make the exact same leap about mind. so you cannot complain about it.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 13:19:11 2023 No.15547992

>>15547975
Yeah but at least we're not smug about it

>hurr durr matter is all there is, but we can't explain where it came from

At least idealists construct arguments based on unknowability, rather than just ignore the fact that your basic ontological structure has never actually been confirmed past the superficial "uhh, it just is, ok?"

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 13:26:16 2023 No.15548003

>>15547992
>Yeah but at least we're not smug about it
they are.
>hurr durr mind is all there is, but we can't explain where it came from
>At least idealists construct arguments based on unknowability, rather than just ignore the fact that your basic ontological structure has never actually been confirmed past the superficial "uhh, it just is, ok?"
idealist argument is not any stronger than the materialist one.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 13:32:31 2023 No.15548009 >>15548003 It is stronger when you factor in the DMT hyperspace and not just handwave it away as some kind of hallucination. It's also strong if you genuinely consider Kastrup's arguments.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 13:41:29 2023 No.15548026 >>15548009 >It is stronger nope.

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 14:36:01 2023 No.15548070

>reality is fundamentally mental
i have patience for this view.

>reality is fundamentally mental, and you can manifest anything using the law of attraction, you have free will and you make reality!!!!
but this is the garbage that too many 'idealists' actually believe, which i have zero patience for.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 14:37:47 2023 No.15548071 >>15547960 You mean logic existed when thwre was nothingnesa? Even if i told younjust now that loogic is something and not nothing? Please stop...

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 14:40:08 2023 No.15548074 >>15548070 Same.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 14:59:45 2023 No.15548105 >>15548070 No serious idealist claims the latter, although synchronicities are a thing, but they are probably a higher order event that we can't ever hope to understand

Anonymous Fri Jul 7 15:14:22 2023 No.15548119

>>15548105
Tbh no serious idealist should claim anything beyond former friend.
For i see no way of gaining any kind of objective knowledge beyond the fact that only thing we can know is our consciousness. Everything else is just a possibility and nothing more.

>>	Anonymous Fri Jul 7 18:55:46 2023 No.15548468 This thread was moved to >>>/x/35233129

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/sci/ - Science & Math