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/sci/ - Science & Math


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15461080 No.15461080 [Reply] [Original]

Why does he like the rationals so much? Why is division so much more valuable than roots/logarithms/integrals etc.?

>> No.15461091

>>15461080
Because the rational numbers actually exist. You can't hold the square root of 2 in your hand

>> No.15461108

>>15461091
You can't hold Graham's number in your hand either.

>> No.15461117

>>15461108
Yeah but you can at least imagine doing so

>> No.15461122

>>15461091
I can draw a diagonal across a unit square and measure it.

>> No.15461125

>>15461091
Pi is more real than almost all rationals

>> No.15461129

>>15461122
I can draw a diagonal across a unicorn's dick and measure it.

>> No.15461133

>>15461129
"Natural numbers are fictitious" is a new one, but certainly a consistent position.

>> No.15461333

>>15461133
>All formal systems are fictitious.
>The natural numbers are a formal system.
>Therefore, the natural numbers are fictitious.
If your concern is with the individual natural numbers, instead of the formal system of natural numbers (TFSoNN) as a whole, then:
>Every natural number is part of TFSoNN.
>Anything that is part of a fictitious system is itself fictitious.
>Since we have concluded that TFSoNN is fictitious, it follows that every natural number is fictitious.

>> No.15461389

write down a irrational number that isnt concocted from either geometry or analysis, just a normal irrational number
make it a number between 9 and 10

>> No.15461396

>>15461080
what is it you're trying to approximate with these methods?

>> No.15461408

>>15461091
>Because the rational numbers actually exist.
ok, show me exactly 4/5 of an apple

>> No.15461552
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15461552

>>15461408
Apologize.

>> No.15461601

>>15461552
how do you know it's really 4/5?

>> No.15461606

>>15461601

Yeah but how do we know its all of it?

>> No.15461626

>>15461606
How about you answer the question?

>> No.15461646
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15461646

>>15461626
I did...you couldnt see my mimicry was to make apparent the error in thinking of your very question; Ergo; Youre asking the wrong question or are (ignorantly) answer seeking for confirmation bias.

You saw nothing at all for first you would have to see yourself, which you rejected as a fool.

>> No.15461648

>>15461080
>Why does he like the rationals so much?
Why do otherwise intelligent people go retarded, and with motivated intent to be irrational? Same reason as always.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/280387313
The crux of his notion appears to be,
>These numbers are completely inaccessible to us, and always will be. [...] Neither you nor I nor anyone ever living in this universe will ever be able to factor this number, since most of its ‘prime factors’ are almost surely so huge as to be inexpressible, which means they don’t exist.
But... why?
His thinking begin in 2005-2006, see 1999 opinion piece "Real fish, real numbers, real jobs" https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Norman-Wildberger/publication/225795896
>But here's where religion, or Modern Biology, comes to our aid. It may be impossible for us to know whether a given complementary pattern of zeroes and ones continues indefinitely, but it is clearly not impossible for God, or a slimy intergalactic superoctopus, to know.
I think we all know where the hiccup in his brain occurred now.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/267297443
>Evolution versus Intelligent Design: a mathematician's view (2008)
>a long study of mathematics has slowly led me towards a mild form of ID
Bingo. The irrationality of his position, as noted by >>15461333 already, stems from an equally irrational belief. Adult santa aka God.

There's a very interesting coincidence in how the writings of one "kairosfocus" from "Uncommondescent" parallel Wildberger's, though they're not the same person. I suspect, though I cannot prove, that wildberger is in some way affiliated with Scripture Union or some subdivision of the cult-like nondenominational international group. There are way too many parallels, and subdivisions of SU do have mission statement to target children and education as Wildberger is doing. Wildberger's notions aren't new, and weirdly SU-affiliated persons like KF were parroting them about the same time.

>> No.15461654

>>15461646
you resorted to mimickry precisely because you're incapable of providing an answer

>> No.15461661

>>15461648
In case it isn't obvious looking up the articles by Kairosfocus or just being an atheist would've made it so. Theists constantly, chronically, try to arbitrarily defend their "infinite being" and declare by special pleading the universe can't "infinitely be" either. I would not be surprised if, like AnswersInGenesis, there are plenty of academics or persons like Wildberger in academia who are affiliated with groups like Scripture Union peddling their variant of an attempt at this. Just institutionally.

It's highly circumstantial of course but god DAMN does KF write like Wildberger and have the EXACT same bullshit in mind, just from a more strictly theological bent. I did all the digging I could, it seems KF is a totally different person, and I can find zero ties of Wildberger with Scripture Union. Just irritatingly "coincidental" with the modus operandi of Wildberger.
His motive for seeking to eliminate infinity, https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/my-conclusion-so-far-on-the-suggested-infinite-past-beginningless-physical-world-not-plausible-likely-not-possible-heres-why/
The users interest in math education,
https://uncommondescent.com/mathematics/jb-what-is-important-in-math/
Also in comments and similar argumentation e.g. dedekind cuts,
https://uncommondescent.com/atheism/durston-and-craig-on-an-infinite-temporal-past/
And driving discussion by rejecting infinity from real numbers,
https://uncommondescent.com/intelligent-design/the-problem-with-most-theological-doctrines-and-the-theological-argument-for-mental-reality/
Similar to the 2008 article by Wildberger, they advocate intelligent design but not anti-evolution,
https://uncommondescent.com/science-education/intelligent-design-is-not-anti-evolution-a-guest-post/
and many other such comments and articles.

So they're not the same person, but maybe, just maybe, Wildberger is like AIG academics. Just more hidden about it and affiliated with Scripture Union in secret.

>> No.15461666
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15461666

>>15461654
Good Lord, youre fucking retarded...
>1
>Yeah, well, how do you that it is? lel chekcmurt pttthhh.

You belong on /pol/ where you deconstructionist logic will have room to work, here you are an ant among giants.

>> No.15461670

>>15461648
>But here's where religion, or Modern Biology, comes to our aid.

Fucking based, he is a prime canidate for my lectures. I may write him an email and school him for lulz.

>> No.15461685

>>15461666
that's a lot of words to avoid the question

>> No.15461704
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15461704

>>15461685
Ive answered it twice, a Mathematician would have noticed I did...so what are you?

No, you got an answer, tell me what you are so I can properly diagnose your major malfunction.

>> No.15461706

>>15461704
schizos be like
>mathematicians would agree with me
and then proceed to talk in the most vague way possible
LOL

>> No.15461719
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15461719

>>15461706
>vague
Odd way of saying "Im filtered."

Youre not a Mathematician, youre a charlatan who hangs around smart people to make themselves feel like theyre not an idiot.

t.Psychologist too

B^l

>> No.15461722

>>15461719
>real numebers are le bad because they don't exist in the real world! we should base maths on le hekkin rationals because they exist!!!
>ok, then show me 4/5 of an apple
>*brain shortcircuits and resets to the schizophrenic routine*
happens every time

>> No.15461727
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15461727

>>15461722
Continuing arguments from other posters is a sign of schizophrenia. I can help you with an assassment but we should do this over a zoom call with a therapist in your local area.

Please...Anon, help is here if you accept it.

>> No.15461730

>>15461727
>once again avoids the argument
LOOOOOL

>> No.15461731

>>15461730
>the argument
The one you had with others or me? You crossed the two and revealed symptoms.

Help is here but you need to put the Pride-stick down.

>> No.15461733

>>15461731
>The one you had with others or me? You crossed the two and revealed symptoms.
how fucking pathetic, you got completely BTFOd so you have to resort to allucinating that another poster has joined the conversation so you can pivot to unrelated insults

>> No.15461736
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15461736

>>15461733
>>real numebers are le bad because they don't exist in the real world! we should base maths on le hekkin rationals because they exist!!!
Quote me, because you cant...
>allucinating that another poster has joined the conversation
-_-
>so you can pivot to unrelated insults
Le schizo insults? Baseless diagnosis from an uninitiated and unlearned individual? Delusions of ability is a sign, Anon...

A sign that you would be happier if you accepted what you saw in the mirror.

>> No.15461739

>>15461736
dude, no matter how much you read Euclid's Elements in a country which is 4000 years behind the rest of the world you will never become a wise greek mathematician

>> No.15461742

rationals exist. reals are a religion.

>> No.15461744
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15461744

>>15461739
>4000 years behind
>wise greek mathematician
How would you know? Ive been to both places and more, learned their ways and more, walked their paths and more.

And more. And more. And more.

>> No.15461752

>>15461670
>Fucking based, he is a prime canidate for my lectures. I may write him an email and school him for lulz.
The article, which you should read before you do that, is using an analogy to misrepresent mathematics by slandering it with a manufactured comparison to biology. He is not talking about real modern biology he's talking about his hypothetical analogy modern biology.

>> No.15461756
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15461756

>>15461752
>which you should read before you do that
He was in Bali recently, unfortunately I was in Malaysia and Thailand a couple weeks ago but am in Europe now, so we missed each other, and Im not fond of visiting Australia, so I'll send him an email and see if he is still in Bali or some other country.

Nah....I'll just fly to him. Either way, YOLO.

>real modern biology
Where is the trademark symbol?
>hypothetical analogy modern biology
Yes, the field is shifting...Im going to a lecture about just this topic in Spain in a couple months.

Where Biology, Physics and Mathematics converge...Theology is where humanity has traditionaly studied this, bronze age people using it to describe Psychology before the field had been founded, as Psychology is mostly predicated of Physiology which is predicated on Genetics.

Try harder at life...

>> No.15461761

>>15461756
schizophrenics be like
>I have read a bunch of old philosophy and I know the names of a few platonic solids and trigonometric formulas
>therefore I have intimate knowledge about everything in the universe

>> No.15461765

>>15461648
>Bingo. The irrationality of his position, as noted by >>15461333 already, stems from an equally irrational belief. Adult santa aka God.
*tips fedora*

>> No.15461767

>>15461761
Funny thing is I know a lot more about all of it than they seem to, whether there really is some head up ass navel gazing neognostic cult or not. The problem with knowing a lot of things is like knowing a lot of trivia. The real trouble is figuring out whether the patterns you see are real or coincidence, and the net of "possible coincidences" grow proportionate your total set of data.

For some reason though some people just can't help but to buy into their own bullshit, while others recognize that kind of pattern matching for what it is. Fun, but often times chasing imaginary things. It's that same thing that leads PhD's and otherwise decent thinkers to lie for jesus a la AiG.

>> No.15461769

>>15461765
>*tips fedora*
cope and seethe

>> No.15461772
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15461772

>>15461761
k

>> No.15461774 [DELETED] 

OP posted Casey Baines, not Norman Wildberger.

>> No.15461785
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15461785

>>15461767
>The real trouble is figuring out whether the patterns you see are real..
You answered this here;
>Fun.

You vill see vhat ve say you see.

>> No.15461791

>>15461133
A unit square isn't a "natural number"

>> No.15461844

>>15461791
Correct, it is four pairs of natural numbers

>> No.15461857

Imo Cauchy Reals are bullshit but Dedekind Reals without the axiom of choice are okay. I'm not convinced they're uncountable.

>> No.15461858
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15461858

>>15461844
>four pairs

>> No.15461861

>>15461858
I am working in the field of five elements

>> No.15461881

>>15461765
God isn't real lol

>> No.15463092

>>15461601
Because otherwise they would be sued for false advertising

>> No.15463098

>>15461858
(0,0), (0,1), (1,0), (1,1)

>> No.15463136

>>15461080
addition, multiplication, subtraction, etc are defined for rationals
they aren't for irrationals

>> No.15463175

>>15461648
>infinitytard trying to insutl religion

>> No.15463853

>>15463175
Zeno's Paradox is a demonstration of the existence of convergent infinite series, and, by extension, actual infinity.

>> No.15463957

>>15463136
They are well defined for irrationals. The fact that closed forms like, say, pi + sqrt(2) doesn't satisfy you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. As a point of comparison, (TREE(4))^3/(TREE(4)-1) + 1/G(G(64)) is a rational.

>> No.15463991

>>15463957
>As a point of comparison, (TREE(4))^3/(TREE(4)-1) + 1/G(G(64)) is a rational.
yes it is, and so it exists. What's your point?

>> No.15464016

>>15463991
>yes it is, and so it exists.
For what it's worth, Wildberger has argued in the past that it doesn't exist, but I digress.
>What's your point?
It is just as hard to give it as a singular fraction/decimal expansion than any sum of irrationals, so like in the case of pi + sqrt(2), we accept any closed form. The existence of pi + sqrt(2) is actually more reasonable in my opinion.

>> No.15464169

>>15464016
>For what it's worth, Wildberger has argued in the past that it doesn't exist, but I digress.
You can summarize all of Wildberger's arguments against irrational numbers being real as follows,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_incredulity
"I can't personally experience infinity, therefore infinity isn't real"
The man literally thinks generalizing the fallacy makes the fallacy somehow less fallacious.

Probably the most fucking hilarious absurdity of his reasoning is the thought that he won't let you infer that you can loop around in a circle infinitely many times, and that because the universe will experience heat death therefore circles aren't actually circles because you will eventually stop looping.

>> No.15464212

>>15464169
Pretty much. I remember getting annoyed watching a video where he ridiculed radians as a concept and claimed the only reason they're used is because of their utility in real analysis, without mentioning arc length once.

>> No.15464234

>>15464212
If it makes you feel any better there was a post a bit ago, forget where can't find the sources, but amounts to the fact people with really dumb ideas but are otherwise smart are just really fucking bad at analytical reasoning. Since it's a skill and you have to acquire it, like knowing how logic and fallacies work, and correctly identifying bad reasoning. Far less likely the higher your IQ to not know how to do this right, but still possible.