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/sci/ - Science & Math

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Anonymous Thu Apr 27 12:35:29 2023 No.15398353 [Reply] [Original]

Materialism is wrong, but idealism still does not address the hard problem. It merely flips it around. Under idealism, why should the thing-in-itself that is represented by my brain be self-aware? It is the exact same problem.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 14:57:05 2023 No.15398641 >>15398353 >Materialism is wrong Why?

Anonymous Thu Apr 27 15:04:09 2023 No.15398659

>>15398641
Edit:
Do you know why HPC cant be solved huh? Ill tell you. BECAUSE YOU IMPLY THAT THERE ARE TWO DIFERENT TYPES OF SUBSTANCE THAT CANNOT INTERACT THAT IS WHY.
HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO SOLVE SOMETHING IF YOU REFUTE EVERY ANSWER IN START OF FORMULATION

Anonymous Thu Apr 27 15:15:54 2023 No.15398678

>>15398353
>why should the thing-in-itself that is represented by my brain be self-aware?
Retard. That's not idealism. Idealism = there is one thing that appears as everything, like a computer screen that appears as a universe of time, space matter etc. Any other definition of idealism, especially a definition that refers to the one thing as consciousness, is a grift designed for plausible denial, like tricking their audience into magical thinking that they are immortal, God or whatever.

Anonymous Thu Apr 27 15:53:33 2023 No.15398749

Close. "Too complex" isn't right. It implies the answer is "in" the universe, in the material existence we have access to. But that's not the case. And in any case complexity is not a barrier to understanding in principle. An understanding of consciousness eludes us because it is a property of some reality beyond our capacity to understand, which is different from "complexity". Your brain could be universe sized and it would make no difference: consciousness would remain beyond your reach.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 15:54:39 2023 No.15398752 Philosophy has never solved any problems.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 15:56:22 2023 No.15398755 >>15398353 >Idealism = there is one thing that appears as everything Monism is not identical to idealism. Idealism is in general stating mind is primary over matter, that's all.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 15:57:30 2023 No.15398759 >>15398752 Go ahead and come up with a scientific explanation for a first moment in time, a first unit of space, how purely material and physical substances give rise to qualia, etc. You will be famous and cool!

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 16:01:14 2023 No.15398765 >>15398353 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8aWBcPVPMo

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 16:13:29 2023 No.15398780 >>15398659 That's why Cartesian dualism is the only acceptable answer. There are two types of substances and they interact via quantum mechanics.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 16:21:46 2023 No.15398789 >>15398780 No it is not. Ltrly it produces even more problems. Some such as "problem of other minds" , "interaction between two supstances". https://youtu.be/zi7Va_4ekko Here Searl take on it. He is a bit grumpy but he does a good take.

Anonymous Thu Apr 27 16:26:11 2023 No.15398793

>>15398789
>quantum mechanics.
Also this. What does that even mean anon.
i) If it is answerable trough quantum mechanics then clearly there are no two supstances.
ii) Many proposed such thing past years but it all comes down to "its quantum magic" without furthere explanation.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 16:39:30 2023 No.15398812 >>15398641 because you're a bug

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 16:45:20 2023 No.15398820 >>15398812 >because you're a bug Why?

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 17:07:15 2023 No.15398862 >>15398765 Pure self-indulgent, masturbatory, intellectually dishonest sophistry.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 17:31:47 2023 No.15398897 >>15398789 >>15398793 Your consistent failure to write the word "substance" accurately reflects the intellectual level of your posts. I will not waste my time debunking your retarded non-arguments. You're not smart enough to understand.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 17:34:03 2023 No.15398903 >>15398897 No it does not. Do not pull grammar card you are not a kid.

Anonymous Thu Apr 27 20:42:20 2023 No.15399344

>>15398353
>Materialism is wrong
obviously
>idealism still does not address the hard problem
there is no hard problem under idealism
>It merely flips it around.
incorrect
>Under idealism, why should the thing-in-itself that is represented by my brain be self-aware?
that's you projecting materialism onto your flawed conception of what idealism is
idealism isn't that at all, there is no "thing-in-itself" under idealism, that only exists in Kantian dualism

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 20:44:06 2023 No.15399347 >>15398755 idealism is a form of monism, yes as opposed to various forms of dualism, or even trialism, or even pluralisms beyond that >Idealism is in general stating mind is primary over matter, that's all. incorrect

Anonymous Thu Apr 27 21:09:41 2023 No.15399405

>>15398353
> but idealism still does not address the hard problem.

It does not need to. In idealism there is no such problem of emergence from a category of thing that is not consciousness - that is an issue for Materialism.

>Under idealism, why should the thing-in-itself that is represented by my brain be self-aware? It is the exact same problem.

The thing represented by your brain and body is your consciousness. You're essentially asking "why is consciousness conscious?".

Because it is what it is.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 21:11:13 2023 No.15399411 >navel gazing thread

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 21:11:32 2023 No.15399412 Why does propofol seem to suppress 100% of my conscious experience? If there were some outside factor, it seems like there would be experience involved.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 21:30:48 2023 No.15399452 >>15398353 >Materialism is wrong, unproven assertion.

Anonymous Thu Apr 27 21:43:31 2023 No.15399478

>>15399452

Its pretty damn clear, and it is time to move on. Materialism is the least serious metaphysical position on the table - although it gets its support from the masses who parrot it.

You define reality to be quantitative, and thus, having nothing to do with qualities. You then find yourself, surprise, in a situation where you can't pull qualities out of quantitive world that is incommensurable qualities.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 21:52:55 2023 No.15399499 >>15399478 >Its pretty damn clear, Nah

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 22:11:57 2023 No.15399535 >>15399412 >Why does pulling the plug stop my radio? If there was some outside "radio waves" the music should just continue playing.

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 22:21:49 2023 No.15399557 >>15399535 i hope you realise this is materialism

>>	Anonymous Thu Apr 27 22:25:42 2023 No.15399563 >>15399557 Only to a brainlet who doesn't understand abstract analogies.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 28 00:52:50 2023 No.15399798 >>15399499 Then you have a smol brain. Sorry to tell you that mate. You'll come around when your popsci masters change their tune too.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 28 00:54:33 2023 No.15399800 >>15399798 >You'll come around when your popsci masters change their tune too. I doubt they ever will. The regime is based on state atheism, and atheism requires materialism otherwise it's even more incoherent than it already is.

Anonymous Fri Apr 28 00:56:37 2023 No.15399801

>>15399344

>there is no hard problem under idealism

Why does my consciousness represent itself in the form a human body?

>there is no "thing-in-itself" under idealism, that only exists in Kantian dualism

Kant was a transcendental idealist. Not a dualist. There always must be a thing-in-itself. Even if you are a solipsist, you acknowledge that SOMETHING (your mind) exists. Are you asserting that NOTHING exists? Then how do YOU exist?

>>15399405

>
It does not need to. In idealism there is no such problem of emergence from a category of thing that is not consciousness - that is an issue for Materialism.

Why does my consciousness represent itself in the form a human body?

>The thing represented by your brain and body is your consciousness.

Same question.

Anonymous Fri Apr 28 00:58:45 2023 No.15399805

>>15399800

That is true. There is zero incentive for any of the powers at be to abandon materialism, since their entire base of power (the way society is structured as a whole) is based on a materialist view.

Not to be a "look at the sheeple" person, but it definitely would not suit the people that run society to have everyone suddenly realize "hey, none of this stuff is real, and it only matters to the extent that it serves what really matters, which is loving each other."

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 28 01:01:38 2023 No.15399810 >>15399805 >"hey, none of this stuff is real, and it only matters to the extent that it serves what really matters, which is loving each other." New Age "love is love" navel gazing is worse than materialism.

Anonymous Fri Apr 28 01:07:05 2023 No.15399814

>>15399810

99% of new age stuff is a grift, but seriously, when you strip everything else away, the only thing that is left is us and how we feel. And why not make each other feel happy? I believe that my core being is peaceful and loving; our core being is corrupted by this sick world and our sick bodies/minds.

Anonymous Fri Apr 28 01:14:41 2023 No.15399819

>>15399801
>Why does my consciousness represent itself in the form a human body?

>>15399801
>Why does my consciousness represent itself in the form a human body?

Let say you see your friend Jim 6 feet from you. The image of Jim's body in your awareness is the result of your consciousness interacting with the consciousness of Jim's, and during that interaction, your conscious activity is changed in such a way as to represent that interaction as the image of Jim's body; In other words, you are constructing Jim as a representation of the interaction of conscious activity.

There is another level to this question - why that particular body of Jim? The brown hair, the scar on his right arm, etc.

I think that evolutionary processes within the universal consciousness have shaped us to register certain conscious activity as human bodies. You may want a precise scientific model of what the dynamics of conscious activity that would lead to conscious structures like humans to perceive conscious interactions in this way, which is fair. But that is an open problem of scientific modelling - not a Hard Problem in the sense of the Hard problem of consciousness.

Anonymous Fri Apr 28 01:37:46 2023 No.15399844

>>15399819

Yes, you described the problem. It is a big problem. Let's set aside the loaded term "hard" for now.

Think about this; I can somewhat control my body. I can move my hand when I want to. But sometimes it twitches on its own or reacts to stimuli faster than I can even decide. I also do not control or generate all of my thoughts. I can think certain things, or stop thinking for a bit, but I do not generate my own thoughts necessarily all the time.

Our nature seems to be that we can direct our attention. Yet, our attention is limited. This means that we are limited. Why? If my brain is simply a representation of my consciousness, then why and how would my consciousness represent thoughts that I am not choosing to think? How and why could I represent thoughts to myself that I am not choosing to think? It is extremely paradoxical.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 28 02:09:31 2023 No.15399888 Yeah I moved on to "It is literally a dream" and don't care about muh mind stuff anymore.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 28 02:14:41 2023 No.15399892 >>15399411 this. there is not science content in this thread, just pomposity from delusional know-it-alls who like to hear themselves talk

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 28 02:16:07 2023 No.15399894 oh look another not /sci/ thread that the mods won't delete

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 28 02:33:02 2023 No.15399915 >>15399844 >But sometimes it twitches on its own or reacts to stimuli faster than I can even decide. severs spinal cord at C4 There ya go. Don't gotta worry about that twitching no more.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 28 02:38:02 2023 No.15399931 >>15399894 Heres a thread about science that the mods did delete >>15388780

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 28 04:07:36 2023 No.15400103 >>15398659 That's why I use HGNU/Linux instead of HPC.

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