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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/sci/ - Science & Math

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15377486 No.15377486 [Reply] [Original]

She makes a good point, if sex and gender are unrelated then why is it necessary to mutilate and destroy sex organs in order to express gender? Do the psychologists and surgeons have a justification for this?

>> No.15377528

>OP is trying to find the logical consistency in a mental illness
Why are you wasting your time like this? Don't you have anything better to do?

>> No.15377618

>were still on this
Man: adult human male
Male: small gametes
Women: adult human female
Female: large gametes
Done. Fuck off back to psychology and sociology classes to spread your butter soft sciences all over shit.

>> No.15377680

because that's how every religion works, retard. Worldly rituals (mutilating genitals) buy you good goy points in the heavenly realm (you become your desired "gender").

>> No.15377717 [DELETED] 

I wasn't a "typical male" growing up and many small minded retards just wrote me off as gay. Even Chandler from "Friends" says the same happened to him. He "had a quality" that made women especially assume he was homosexual. In Chandler and I's time men like this were left alone to find their way. Many of us turned out to be perfectly heterosexual just not, mainstream. There used to exist men who would write poetry and even extremes like being a drag queen. But go ask RuPaul, he will tell you he's a man with a penis. So the male of society was allowed to express himself across a wide range of presentations and still "be a male". This applies to women as well per the example of the almost extinct Tom Boy.

Societal pressures from "parts unknown" are narrowing the windows and pushing people into boxes, forcing them to choose sides ironically with one of the choices being a null choice. I've noticed very few people stay non-binary and use it as a transition stage to a new gender. I even recall a comedy sketch about an ambiguous gender individual named Pat. The premises was no one could tell in Pat was a man or a woman, Patrick or Patricia? Pat always refused to answer and just affirmed that they were Pat. Some would argue this is predictive programming but I would say it shows how before people could be ambiguous and it wasn't really anyone's business. People were always scared to death to ask Pat's pronouns, imagine that today! Folks are scared NOT TO ASK! They wear it on their uniforms to make it easy, kek.

Long story short it's all about this base idea of forcing you to choose sides and be as invested as possible. That's why it makes them furious when you opt out of the whole discussion, they insist you state pronouns and refuse to be ignored.


>> No.15378147
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I don't know if it's you, but there's some anon on this board who gets mad whenever anyone criticize trans ideology. He basically spergs out and starts talking about how people are legitimizing mental illness by engaging with trans ideology, but I'm 99% sure he is just a tranny larping as le pol and trying to shut down any criticism of the trans agenda.

Low IQ normies, SJWs, qtards, civnat neocons, and other NPC types might not be interested in logical arguments, but many other people still posses the ability to think critically for themselves, and we are speaking to those people.

Being able to intellectually articulate and defend your position and values is a good thing, and something we should all aim for. There is nothing more central to white identity than the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom, so trying to discourage that or demoralize people is peak kike/tranny behavior. I'm sure it's difficult for non-whites to understand, but we value reason and logic for it's own sake. That's part of how we understand and navigate the world. The point isn't to engage with trannies or kikes, or appeal to them intellectually. Logic is not just a rhetorical tool. The reason white people rely on facts and logic is not because we're trying to appease other races or appeal to globohomo ideologues, or for any other rhetorical purposes. Logic and reason does not serve a rhetorical purpose. White people rely on logic and reason because it serves an epistemological purpose, it has nothing to do with rhetoric. Logic allows us to better organize, evaluate, and understand our own world view. Again, this has nothing to do with debating non-whites or gays or justifying ourselves to non-whites, and it does not serve any rhetorical purpose. White people rely on logic and reason not because it appeals to degenerates, but rather because we ourselves find it appealing.

>> No.15378155

Meant for >>15377528

>> No.15378166

I have no idea what you're on about, but trannies are demonic, calling them "mentally ill" is comic understatement.

That has nothing to do with OP being an autistic idiot, trying to find order in evil itself.

>> No.15378205

>Do the psychologists and surgeons have a justification for this?

>> No.15379043

Begone, vile rat.

>> No.15379048

the death throes of the eternal loser. all your little whining and moaning on the internet. you think youre so clever, you think you just so managed to escape the "bureaucracy" but you didnt. you never will. we are going to vaccinate you. yes we will do that. we are going to forcibly give your children gender reassignment surgery. yes we will do that. we are going to feed you nothing but grains and insects. yes we will do that. there is nothing you can do. enjoy the limited time you have shitposting on the internet for the "kekz and lulz". we will be the ones having kekz and lulz when youre chained and imprisoned, finally working for once in your miserable short life. and yes it will be oh so glorious. i cant wait.

>> No.15379141

Because trannies are disingenuous. Think about the what FtM and MtF mean and why they're not WtM and MtW. Trannies want to control the definition of gender and then make sex into a synonym for gender so the concept of biological sex ceases to exist and only their social construct gender remains.

>> No.15379177
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She also believes your pet should choose its species... if it was born a dog it can still live as a cat, you just need to BELIEVE!!

>> No.15379299

It's rephrasing the problem "if gender isn't real why do you want to be an (archetypal) opposite gender"

>> No.15379865
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>> No.15379870

Why don't we just make it transexual or transgender.
Transsexuals'want to change their se. Transgenders identify as another gender.
If you are both you are a transexual transgender.

>> No.15379894

>why is removing them necessary
It’s not and never has been. Maybe read some history first? I dunno, maybe you assholes want to be seen as dishonest retards..

>> No.15379912

Nobody arguing for transgender rights has made the claim that there is no gender. They claim that gender roles and societal views on gender are constructs of society and they’re not wrong. They want to behave as a gender opposite the one they were assigned at birth and I don’t understand why we can’t just live and let live. Societies have had 3rd genders and trans genders for thousands of years without collapsing and falling into the ocean. I don’t know why this is such a big deal other than the fact that the modern conservative right needs a boogeyman to scare people into voting against their best interests and transgenders are that current specter.

>> No.15379957

The issue here is not science. This is entirely political. Furthermore the topic is just one front of a much larger political conflict. Politically it is about power and exerting control from a position of power.

Debating the issue of transgenderism is as unproductive, and as scientifically irrelevant, as debating flat earthers.

The fact that one party can even force a debate on the topic, let alone establish legal instruments, is a symptom of their political power in ascent.

>> No.15380134

Because it is gender affirming. Most women have a vagina, so it is euphoric for transwomen to have one too. Same reason why they often wear stereotypically feminine clothing.

>> No.15380538

>and I don’t understand why we can’t just live and let live.

Perhaps we should "let and let live". Perhaps we should not. Independently of this debate, the fact is that the *change* from a society with barely visible transgenderism to one of highly visible transgenderism is, in itself, a point of contention. This contention would not exist from the perspective of someone in either the pre- or the post-transformation phase, but only during the acute transformation. This induces several problems:
- if the transition occurs over, like, 5 years, perhaps the damage done would be very limited and acceptable. But you notice how from people a) not being NPCs without free will (so you can't just roll out a software update to them -- usually) b) or of low intelligence/critical thinking ability or c) low civic engagement or d) valuing any debate about novel development, it follows that a period longer than "very few years" is a very desirable outcome. If you reject this claim, you have to concede at least one of these 4 points as being "desirable".
- what if the switch from pre-TG to post-TG society takes 100 years? Would a 100 years of sociopolitical trench warfare be worth it? Let us illustrate this on a different example: if a fringe cause like 'furry rights' can only be won via 2 months of corrosive social debate, would you deem it worth it? What about over 100 years?

This was point 1. "The issue of the differential". Notice how I have not even yet addressed TG itself.
Point 2 is "Are there downsides to such revolutionary gender ideas, and are they worth it?"
The idea that gender is a) a 'thing' and b) mutable are deeply corrosive. You notice this with the social contagion of the rate of FtM teenagers exploding 40-fold.

>> No.15380542

That most of these cases are not genuine follows from logic: if it is merely due to higher social acceptance, MtF rates should have exploded similarly. Furthermore, teenagers and people of predisposition for mental issues will be more receptive for such "fancies" that do not map onto actual transgenderism, or any neurological divergence for that matter (also compare the faux epidemic of "dissociative disorder", etc.) What is happening that these issues (TG, some mental disorders) have passed a point of "extraordinary social cost", to merely "low" or even "no social cost". Again, this follows directly from the maxims that the pro-TG crowd posits, that these things should "become acceptable"
What could be the gain of simulating such conditions? Various. Clout. Identity construction. Or no productive motivation whatsoever. Consider also how this just regards the individual: this dynamic becomes multi-dimensional once you also incorporate the social environment into the equation, where other people might induce an otherwise non-receptive individual into adopting the mental identity, again due to various dynamics (believing this advances "a cause", communal identity reinforcement, clout-by-proxy, fetishistic factors, etc.).

Furthermore, proposed gender revolutions are corrosive towards the functioning of traditional gender roles. These of course have not arisen in a vacuum, but are a function of humans being mammals. For example, the fact that women are more nurturing follows from biology. By extension, women will be more predisposed to enter fields with such an element. Via contraposition it follows that fewer women will enter fields that are least relevant to nurturing disciplines (you may take this to be STEM, martial services, or whatever "trad masc" field you prefer).

>> No.15380552

>Societies have had 3rd genders and trans genders for thousands of years without collapsing and falling into the ocean.
Perhaps they did fall into the ocean? The societies that had these transformations arguably are not the same as these with the state before the acceptance of the "third gender" idea. It is hard to untangle this in the mind of someone of moderate intelligence, but: note that I am not making any normative judgment about the desirability of the pre-third gender e.g. Indian society, and the post- one. I am rather arguing from the point of view from someone that lived in the pre- society. Perhaps, to them, this change was too radical to be compatible with the claim "this is a society I can identify with"? The entire crux of this debate is that the validity of such social issues are fully amoral: they exist on an orthogonal axis from the main "less ethical" to "more ethical" axis.
The fact that someone disagrees with some social de novo development is already, inherently, reason enough to consider it "morally admissible and most likely relevant". This is a consequence of that person being a participant in society, and part of the social construction.
If you want to show their reservations are unfounded, you cannot naively attempt to argue from first principles (e.g. "the golden rule"), as, as demonstrated, via first principles such social debates are fundamentally inert and independent of the main ethical axis. You need to counter their individual reservations. E.g. "I find it is too dangerous to allow this ideology, as it preys too much on the mentally weak".


>> No.15380575 [DELETED] 
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you don't play "let and let live" with pedophilic predators because they will inevitably try to prey on your children, its better to just wipe them out.
tolerance is a spook

>> No.15380723

ChatGPT still has some way to go I see.

>> No.15380733

I know. I have major issues to connect with normies, as in, making texts that don't seem like utter Chtulhu gibberish to them (believe me, I have already filtered it a lot). There are studies that show that people with a 30 IQ difference essentially have nothing in common anymore, when it comes to thoughts and conversations. What I am saying literally does not compute to the 105 IQ anon/troon/SJW. Even if you wanted, you can just have surface conversations, as you need to arbitrarily insert an "API" between the two sides.

>> No.15380749

Who isn't letting transsexuals live? It's they who demand, very loudly and under threat of cancellation, ie personal and financial destruction, that everyone adapt their habits and even language (up to basic grammar) to their whims about identity. If you can be forced to refer to a scruffy hunk in a wig by "she/her", you can be forced to say any absurdity. And in the end, accept any exercise of power by your social superiors.

>> No.15380889

>Listening to retarded far right on t**tter

>> No.15381756
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it isn't that they are 'unrelated' it is just that they 'aren't the same thing'

all you trans-obsessed people make yourselves look functionally retarded with your attempts at disingenuous 'gotcha' arguments.

>> No.15381956

Adult men showing their penis to five year old girls is what trannies consider "just live and let live". If you were serious about being "left alone" you'd favor the death penalty for trannies who insist on access to children. But because access to children is part of your identity, you won't do that so can't be left alone to abuse children. No one really cared about trannies until they started going after children but that you defend such behavior shows everyone why you can never be "left alone" as that endangers the children you lust after.

>> No.15381982

Can there not be a difference between biological sex and gender?

>> No.15382016

medical technology can't really give them a vagina though, just a crude farce.

>> No.15382615
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>> No.15382985
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Because trannies are either
A) homophobic and think the solution is to change their sex so that they're no longer practicing homosexuality, or
B) have deeply internalized societal expectations of gender behavior because of excessive need for peer validation i.e. they can't stand being a girly guy or tomboy girl

>> No.15383111

>There is nothing more central to white identity than the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom

>> No.15384156

>I am 135+ IQ person expecting high level intelligent discourse and discussion of my dissertations on a board overwhelmingly inhabited by children, retards, trolls, and the mentally ill.

Yup, that sure stacks up.

>> No.15385561 [DELETED] 

you seem upset, explain why the statement upsets you so much

>> No.15385567

they are connected to gender, hence the necessity of gender affirming surgery for people that are affected by gender dysphoria

>> No.15385571

You have really high generalized opinions of an entire race of people when the grand majority don't contribute anything.

>> No.15386598

It's not. If you want it done than so be it. But gender dysphoria is based on social definitions of man and woman and women are expected to have vaginas, so gender dysphoric trans women believe they need one too. In a perfect world gender would mean little to nothing.

>> No.15386604

>don't contribute anything
why do you presume that everyone is born in debt to you? what have you done to deserve all these contributions you demand?

>> No.15386656

>nothing more central to white identity than the pursuit of knowledge and wisdom
>we value reason and logic for it's own sake
>Logic allows us to better organize, evaluate, and understand our own world view
That you honestly believe these are central themes to white identity is laughable. It's not a majority, not in the current years, and it's certainly not central to being white. Don't you have some rightwing cult to subvert?

>> No.15386745

Thanks for proving that most trans don't actually see any difference between sex and gender.

>> No.15386758

Noticed this too, they will jump to rattle off their spiel about how they are distinct, then use the terms 'male' and 'female' in violation of their own definitions.

Basically, the pathological dishonesty that is required to make the trans ideology work in the first place.

>> No.15387386

>Why don't we just make it transexual or transgender.
>Transsexuals'want to change their se. Transgenders identify as another gender.
>If you are both you are a transexual transgender.
Exactly. This is the correct formulation.

t. cisgender transsexual

>> No.15387495


>> No.15387498

>fag ideology is illogical
Whoa crazy you just figured this out?

>> No.15387500

A. Gender and sex are inseparable
B. Gender roles are a product of evolution, they serve a purpose in terms of survival and thriving

>> No.15387510

Lol, the only functional purpose for the constantly healing/closing surgical wound is sex. The only purpose is to be fucked "like a woman" but it'll only ever be a simile for a vagina. It's mental illness+fetish

>> No.15387543

>>They claim that gender roles and societal views on gender are constructs of society and they’re not wrong. They want to behave as a gender opposite the one they were assigned at birth and I don’t understand why we can’t just live and let live.
If gender roles are scripted and forced, an actual deconstruction of them would be to simply behave without respect for those conventions. Actively trying to embody opposite gender conventions reinforces stereotypes of what it means to be a man or woman.
>>15382985 is pretty on the nose. Having to transition to do things like "grill like a man" is emblematic of crippling social anxiety disorder where the individual has to not just be a "girly man" or "manly woman" but fully embody a stereotype to get ahead of criticism from peers. It's analogous in its logic to the mentality of "lol i didn't even try so i can't fail"

>> No.15387546
File: 136 KB, 349x452, caveman.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

CDC and WHO say is true, so is true
woman literally man but removed penis

>> No.15387599


>> No.15387817

Trannies are fucking weird.
>Simple as

>> No.15387832

Not the same doesn't mean they aren't connected. It's difficult to take the right seriously because they put forward these half-cocked retarded postulations indicating either inability to grapple with the subject matter or a disingenuous attempt to push a narrative under the guise of discourse. Just think for two fucking seconds before you speak. Is that really too much to ask for?

>> No.15388282

>It's difficult to take the right seriously
Hard to take seriously people who think males are women. Create whatever construct you want in your head but no male will ever be a woman. You can call yourself the God of science and the arbitrator of reality but no matter what you say, no male will ever be a woman. Why should anyone care what a creature such as yourself takes serious when you've already announced you're not a serious person.

>> No.15388538
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>> No.15389824
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simple as

>> No.15389878

An infected axe wound that needs constant dilating for it to stay open isn't a vagina.

>> No.15389895

Rhetorically, there is a good point for an argument there, but, also, rhetorically, rhetoric does not work on those people. The real good point is dead trannies and dead tranny surgeons.

>> No.15389906

>scare people into voting against their best interests
For sure, if people don't understand how mass importation of the third world to suppress wage growth is in their best interest then they should not be allowed to vote.

>> No.15391763

Communist propaganda isn't meant to make sense, it's meant to humiliate and force you to agree with blatant lies

>> No.15391775

>conservative right needs a boogeyman to scare people into voting against their best interests
And the left wonders why they can't rally the actual working class besides food service and retail workers
>they must just be too stupid to bow at the glory of my intellectualism

>> No.15391911
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Uh-oh! Looks like the chuddies have leaked from /pol/ and are obsessing about trannies again! Did you get bored about the vax threads already.

>> No.15392508
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>> No.15393192

>if [misinterpretation of what some poeple claim to be true] then why [nonsensical statement that nobody actually claims to be true]
She doesn't make a good point. She is arguing against a strawman. No wonder it seems illogical to her when she is the one who intentionally constructed it as such.

>> No.15394608
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>> No.15396139
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>> No.15397851

If gender transition were genuinely possible then sex organs would be as transplantable as a kidney or a liver or any other organ. But a male crossdresser and a female crossdresser can't just swap sex organs and become the opposite gender, so gender transition isn't possible.

>> No.15398514

atheists don't believe in right or wrong, they only believe in getting what they want.
"thou shalt no lie" is not a commandment to them

>> No.15398985
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Gender and sex are functionally the same thing.

The correlation between biological sex and gender identity is ~99%

The correlation between shooting yourself in the head with a shotgun and dying of same is ~98%

>> No.15399010


>> No.15399376


>> No.15400293

ideally it wouldn't, but current society associates them and so for some people the easiest way to deal society not accepting their gender because of their sex is to try and be more like the other sex

>> No.15400296

its not as simple as this. gender is basically a constellation of associations. What you are saying is more like:
because everyone realizes intuitively its a huge fucking hassle not to be 'normal', people just repress their abnormal tendencies - to them they emphasize the parts of themselves that fit the stereotype, and ignore or downplay the parts of themselves that don't fit. In this way their self image can conform to whats normal and they feel at ease with themselves. Some people however are too different to do this and there is some threshold where the repression is not enough for your ego to maintain and now you have to do something about it. For some people that thing is transitioning.
Nobody actually fits the gender stereotype of their sex perfectly.

>> No.15401635

No, thats completely wrong, there are only two genders

>> No.15401847

>there are only two genders
Nice source, chud

>> No.15403102


>> No.15403173

I want my foreskin back.

>> No.15404626
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how much money do you have?

>> No.15405518

They don't

>> No.15406296

silly anon you have mistakenly come too the conclusion that radfems and trannies believe the same thing, there is a reason after all why it's called TERF and just TEF

>> No.15407565
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>> No.15408599
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They do

>> No.15410233
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>> No.15411259

>The correlation between biological sex and gender identity is ~99%

>> No.15412600
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>> No.15412622

It's not necessary to remove them.

>> No.15412630

Some pedo skank with fake boobs and sex appeal with public channel accessible by kids is criticizing others kek

>> No.15412877


>> No.15412906

then what

>> No.15413330
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>> No.15413409

why not, nigger? explain why not or I'll fucking kill you, you porch coon

>> No.15413920

>Mocking suicide is le funny
/pol/cels are so cringe

>> No.15414582
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stonetoss is epic

>> No.15414597

Then nothing

>> No.15414603

amogus door 2nd panel
to (2) ez

>> No.15414606
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Can't believe we have to waste our time discussing such bullshit and people will actually argue against plain common sense because some fag crossdressers wanted to bring their bedroom kinks into public.

At best: they're sex perverts who shouldn't ever be let near kids or vulnerable women; at worst: they're mentally ill, a danger to society, and need to be locked in padded rooms.

>> No.15414712

Glad you agree trans men are men

>> No.15414726


Only yours.

>> No.15414948

>Do the psychologists and surgeons have a justification for this?
yes. money.

>> No.15414952

not reading all that shit.
that said, trannies are viscerally disgusting and that is all the justification one needs. no further logic or rationale necessary.

>> No.15414958

>constellation of associations
gay as fuck, not reading any further

>> No.15415149

You say that but transpeople destroy communities. Have you seen reddit? Have you seen the lesbian dating app HER? Both are full of powertripping "women" with y chromosomes and beards. If trannies were willing to live and let live their presence wouldn't be an issue.

It means little to nothing to most real women in the west thanks to feminism. Women fought to make gender roles less restrictive for their sex, why can't men do the same?

>> No.15415211
File: 396 KB, 1080x1350, Trans_Children.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>Nobody actually fits the gender stereotype of their sex perfectly.

An eight year old boy saying he wants to be like the Ice queen from the movie Frozen is NOT him asking for his parents to remove his nuts so he can be a tranny!!!

>> No.15415450

And a kid dressed up in slightly girly clothes isn't getting his nuts cut off.

Sex-reassignment surgery in children literally does not happen. It's illegal literally everywhere. What they do is put them on puberty blockers until they're 18 and an adult and THEN they make the decision whether they want to go off the meds and have a late but perfectly normal puberty as their biological sex, or change to other hormones and possibly get surgery.

Oh but I guess that whole "they can't make up their minds because they aren't adults" argument doesn't work anymore, does it?

>> No.15415619

If you did take us seriously while still being insane enough to believe lies like "sex is a spectrum" (or even worse "sex is bimodal") I'd be a bit concerned.

>> No.15415624

Puberty blockers aren't just "meds" you fucking retard. They fundamentally alter the cognitive and musculoskeletal development of the child who is prescribed them and we are completely flying blind with respect to their safety.

Safety data in natal girls who were given puberty blockers to delay natal puberty from early onset to normal onset tells us literally nothing about the safety of using puberty blockers to PREVENT normal onset puberty in natal boys.

"Passing" is not worth mutilating and permanently altering the cognitive and physical development of children you retard.