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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1507180 No.1507180 [Reply] [Original]

Could it be possible that transgender people have the same sort of mental illness as self amputees and people with fursonas?

Usually all these groups tell similar storys about how they feel the way they do so maybe they are related somehow?

>> No.1507206

Well, jackass, let me ask you a few questions: Should we allow adults to smoke and drink alcohol? Should we let adults make investments in what we think are shitty business plans? Should we let adults ride motorcycles?

>> No.1507219

>>1507206
lol wut?

>> No.1507223

>>1507180
maybe its not a mental illness, just a variation in sexual behavior and gender identity.

>> No.1507226

>>1507180
Explain yourself.

>>1507206
Explain yourself.

>> No.1507230

>>1507180
define mental illness and post definitive examples of said similar stories.

>> No.1507244

>>1507180
[examples needed]

>> No.1507246

Who cares if it's a "mental illness"? If they're consenting adults, let them do what they want. Nobody has ever died because a guy wanted to put on a fursuit or a dress. "It's icky and threatens my masculinity" is not a good enough reason to categorize something as an illness.

>> No.1507253

>>1507230
A mental illness to me would be any change in the brains thinking process that causes a negative effect.

also example of a self amputee who felt something didn't seem "right" about himself
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNps5_ndHzY

>> No.1507263

>>1507246
Im not saying there icky or should not be allowed to be transsexual or have a sex change you moron. Why don't you try actually READING a post next time instead of closing your eyes and making up your own.

>> No.1507266

>>1507253
define negative effect and give more examples of transgender and people with fursonas that give exactly the same reasoning.

>> No.1507267

>>1507253
Who cares? He isn't hurting anyone. Let him do what he wants.

>> No.1507271

>>1507263
>Could it be possible that transgender people have the same sort of mental illness as self amputees and people with fursonas?

>Who cares if it's a "mental illness"?

>> No.1507273

>>1507267
technically, he is hurting himself. that doesn't mean that he does not have the right to do that, but it is false to say that he is not hurting anyone.

>> No.1507276

Their identities are not aligned with what they physically appear to be. Their hardly mental illnesses, that's a problem with the body.

Well, there still may be some weird crap behind the fusona and self-amputee stuff, but transsexuals identify as the opposite physical sex very early on, and it's linked to hormonal differences and neuroanatomy and neurophysiology characteristic of the opposite physical sex.

>> No.1507283

>>1507273
If he truly wants to cut off his own limbs and would be happier that way, he's not hurting himself any more than someone who gets botox injections or liposuction or rock hard fake tits.

>> No.1507285

>>1507266
Define Defining things

>>1507267
Last time I checked this was a SCIENCE BOARD. I thought the point science was we try to figure out how things work

>> No.1507286

>>1507273
hurp derp you knew exactly what I meant, Mr. Semantics.

>> No.1507294

>>1507273
>>1507283
>>1507267

Can you guys shut up?

I DONT FUCKING CARE IF HE CHOPS HIS OWN HEAD OFF ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS WHY HE CHOPS HIS OWN HEAD OFF.

>> No.1507298

>>1507273
People hurt themselves all the time in play or sports or plastic surgery or weight-lifting or training for a good job. Mental illnesses require a more rigorous concept of hurting yourself, at the very least.

People with mental illnesses experience consistent mental suffering due an abnormality in psychological functioning. A person who is gay for example can certainly be troubled if the community is the Westboro Baptist Church, but clearly we wouldn't say that means he has a mental illness. Similarly, a transgendered might get some heat from haters, but in a normal environment (when they pass) they typically report happiness.

>> No.1507304

ITT: Why /sci/ shouldn't exist.

>> No.1507307

>>1507294
Simple dick face!!!

THEY ENJOY IT!!!

JUST LIKE SADISTS AND SADOMASOCHISTS!!!

>> No.1507313

>>1507294
Transsexuals are born the way they are. Hormones in the womb.

>> No.1507315

Debating whether Gender Dysphoria is a mental illness is a massive can of worms.

>> No.1507319
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1507319

/sci/ I am disappoint.

Is there somewhere else I can go to discuss actual science?

>> No.1507325

>>1507315
But why? The name Dysphoria is RIGHT IN THERE doesn't that say something?!?!?!?!?!

>> No.1507329

>>1507325
It's there to describe how the transgender most likely feels, they are not in a state of harmony.

Not euphoric ergo in a state of dysphoria

>> No.1507343

>>1507283
>>1507286
>>1507298
It is not incorrect to say that someone who cuts his own limb off is hurting himself. It is incorrect to say that you can gauge the suffering he would have continued to endure had he not cut the limb off. As it is his body, it is entirely within his rights (in my opinion, even if the law disagrees with me) to do whatever he wants to himself, including killing himself, so long as nothing he does causes physical harm to others.

Now, whether or not the stress from a person's suicide causes another person to have a heart attack and die a year, a month, or a day earlier is irrelevant. Having a close friend, relative, or significant other who is transgender, a self-amputee, or someone with a fursona could also cause stress and is also irrelevant.

But do you honestly think that if some solution were found to these feelings of body dysphoria, the people involved would not use that solution? Do you believe that the people with body dysphoria want to feel different? Whether or not one is causing oneself harm is definitely relevant to this discussion, and in no way was I trying to nitpick. I was trying to make sure everyone understands what is involved in this discussion.

>> No.1507354

>>1507285
i was trying to make sure all of our terms are defined as per proper scientific inquiry. if you feel that simply believing you are a reincarnated wolf and want to be that wolf is a negative effect, it needs to be clear. i do not know what you consider to be a negative effect in the context of dysphoric individuals and being a fuckhead about it is not moving us any closer to a conclusive answer.

>> No.1507360

>>1507180
ITT: OP secretly wants to be a woman and wants nigger dicks up his ass, but can't come to grips with the reality of it so he bashes transgenders instead.

>> No.1507366

>>1507319
Go take over some disused board? One of the text-only boards perhaps? I don't think anybody will mind that much?

>> No.1507389 [DELETED] 

>>1507354
Ok fine. I would define a negative effect as anything that impedes normal thought processes. A person who feels like a wolf trapped in human body or a person who feels that they need one less leg or to be a different gender seem to have an obsession of some kind that prevents them from moving on.

As normal furry might say gee I wish a I was a tiger and leave that at that Stalking Cat (aka that guy with the tiger tattoos allover his face) feels the needs to change his appearance until something in his subconscious tells him thats enough.

All these people seem to have no actually control over there own impulses and thats why I feel they may be linked to a similar malfunctioning part of the brain.

>> No.1507398

>>1507354
Ok fine. I would define a negative effect as anything that impedes normal thought processes. A person who feels like a wolf trapped in human body or a person who feels that they need one less leg or to be a different gender seem to have an obsession of some kind that prevents them from moving on.

As normal furry might say gee I wish a I was a tiger and leave that at that Stalking Cat (aka that guy with the tiger tattoos allover his face) feels the needs to change his appearance until something in his subconscious tells him thats enough.

All these people seem to have no actually control over there own impulses and thats why I feel they may be linked to a similar malfunctioning part of the brain.

>> No.1507403
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1507403

>>1507398
Pic related
fucking captcha

>> No.1507426

>>1507403

Is that a man or a woman or what?

>> No.1507440

>>1507426
You never heard of tiger man?

God did you like never read any of those Guinness World Records or Ripley's believe it or not as a kid?

>> No.1507454
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1507454

>>1507223
nah, it is an illness, as, it's the non-acceptance of the body you have, versus a body you think is ideal.
might wanna also include anorexic girls [and even guys now].

>>1507230
why trying to define something as an illness when you got retarded doctors saying like "it's not a disease, it's the society that won't understand them !"


i think transgenders/fursuiters/anorexics or the random guy who's going to practice self castration or toe amputation, if not ears or even fingers, have totally a form of schizophrenia.

>> No.1507462

>>1507440

In all honesty, no to all three questions.

>> No.1507466

>>1507426
It's a guy who said he identified more with being a cat than being a human throughout his life and got body mods to fit the mental image he had of himself.

>> No.1507469

>>1507283 If he truly wants to cut off his own limbs and would be happier that way, he's not hurting himself

Firstly, yes he is; self-amputation is pretty goddamn harmful. Secondly; he's harming those around him who now have to spend their lives taking care of a cripple.

How the hell is letting someone saw their own legs off a better idea than getting them some goddamn therapy?

>> No.1507477
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1507477

>>1507319
Psychiatry or psychology is a science! okay it's more about the software than the hardware (medecine) but it remains one.

>> No.1507478

>>1507466

lol keep that man away from Craig Venter!

>> No.1507479

>>1507454
Well you're clearly fucking retarded aren't you.

>> No.1507486

>>1507398
well body dysphoria and gender dysphoria are two different things. And most dysphorics are different in how they believe their body should actually be. the latest i heard said that most experts believe transgenderism is a result of certain hormones acting on the fetus during certain points in a pregnancy. I seriously doubt those same hormones can cause someone to believe they are a wolf or dolphin, but it does seem theoretically possible that a transgender could confuse the feeling that they are a man trapped in a woman's body (or vice versa) with the feeling that his or her arm is "not right."

It could be that they see their masculine (or feminine) arm as too feminine (or masculine) and mistake those feelings for the belief that they would be better off without that arm at all. If the feelings of dysphoria go away after the removal of a limb, then perhaps I'm wrong. But perhaps the person has simply mentally compartmentalized all of their feelings of dysphoria into the removal of that limb, and it is enough to alleviate their symptoms.

In the end, all I can say is "maybe" to the question of whether or not transgenderism and self-amputation are related, and "probably not" to the question of people with fursonas. It seems more likely that the fursona is a social mechanism for people who lack interpersonal relationship skills to cope. Otherwise it could simply be escapism. I suppose it depends on the depth to which they take it.

>> No.1507493

>>1507479
explain why!

>> No.1507495

>>1507398
Hahaha. Transsexualism is definitely not an "impulse". You have to go through therapy for years before you'll even be prescribed hormones. You have to live as the opposite sex for several years before you can get SRS. No one who changes their sex has ever done it on a whim.

Also, "normal" is a completely meaningless, ambiguous word that might as well just be replaced with "whatever I personally do not understand and have personal prejudices against".

>> No.1507498

>>1507479
He is pretty goddamn retarded, but anorexia and bulimia are both symptoms of body dysphoria.

>> No.1507501

Don't fucking compare gender dysphoria with furry retardness.
Being a transexual is somewhat reasonable considering said person wants to be the opposite gender, probably because hormonal errors during development, I think there are examples of this in other species other than us.
And wanting to be a completely different animal is another story entirely, furries can be result of deep psychological problems that makes them have such a rejection of being human.

>> No.1507515

>>1507493
because schizophrenia can cause self-harm but it would also be obvious if someone was suffering from it and not body dysphoria.

>> No.1507516

>>1507469
Because therapy isn't a magical cure-all panacea and sometimes the only solution is to give them what they want?

>> No.1507542

>>1507516
It's important to determine whether or not the person is really suffering from some type of dysphoria, or if they are simply doing it for the attention.

>> No.1507549

>>1507501
You know furries and otherkin are completely different things, right? Most furries are teenagers who just like drawing shitty pictures of animal people and occasionally wearing fursuits at conventions for fun. Of course, your only exposure to furries is 4chan wank and "look at this freaky fringe website all furries must be like this" wank as relayed to you by 4chan, so you wouldn't know that.

>> No.1507554

>>1507486
>it does seem theoretically possible that a transgender could confuse the feeling that they are a man trapped in a woman's body (or vice versa) with the feeling that his or her arm is "not right."
>It could be that they see their (or feminine) arm as too feminine (or masculine) and mistake those feelings for the belief that they would be better off without that arm at all.

If that's the case then why just cut off the one arm? Wouldn't you start lobing of all masculine parts.

This is exactly why I feel hormone cannot be the "source" of the problem and think that trangenderism is just one manifestation of a bigger problem (like schizophrenia)

>> No.1507555

>>1507498
I know, I've fucked an anorexic chick, not fun.

But one or two being genuine mental illnesses don't make them all mental illnesses.

>> No.1507558

>>1507542
There are many more easier ways to get attention than cutting off your limbs or your dick. The world would certainly be an easier place if we could handwave everything other people do that makes us uncomfortable with "he must be doing it for attention", but unfortunately that isn't how it works.

>> No.1507568

>>1507554
Do you even know what schizophrenia is?

>> No.1507571

>>1507558
Yeah, and there are easier ways to get attention than pretending you have cancer too, but that doesn't mean people don't do it.

>> No.1507574

>>1507454
Anorexics starve themselves because they falsely believe that they are fat (by the time it crosses into anorexia) and engage in a never-ending quest for thinness that may end in death. Transsexuals want to have the body of the opposite sex. It's normal to want the body of a male or of a female, it's part of your identity. It's not any more a problem of the mind than it is a problem with the body.

You don't understand what schizophrenia is.

>>1507469
You don't know what self-amputees feel and you will never know. They know what they want better than you do, and would take another solution if it were available.

>> No.1507583

>>1507515
okay now i agree with you, always used to believe dysphoria as a symptom or a form of schizophrenic behavior.

it's all about identity acceptance, on different degrees.

>>1507501
maybe it have a different name but for me it remains on the same bucket as an identity perception and disorder may it be a conflict of gender, races or species.

but anyways i'm not Freud and it's not reading some Dolto that will make me a psychiatrist or even someone who know shit in this domain.

>> No.1507584

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZLulEgXLOU

>> No.1507588

>>1507554
If you had read further, I explained why I believe they do not keep "lobing of" all of their masculine limbs.

>> No.1507592

>>1507571
Pretending you have cancer doesn't involve permanently removing your limbs. Pretending you have cancer doesn't really even affect you in any significant capacity. At most you shave your head, and pretend to be sick in front of people. They aren't even remotely comparable.

>> No.1507593

>>1507495
>Transsexualism is definitely not an "impulse". You have to go through therapy for years before you'll even be prescribed hormones.

What does having to wait a long time have to do with anything?
When I say IMPULSE I don't mean impulse as in OMG shoes gotta have them. I mean an impulse that a person with ocd has to do things repeatedly, a feeling that is uncontrollable an persistent.
But whatever I can tell your not even reading your just getting mad instead of trying to work this out with me logically.

>> No.1507603

>>1507593
that would be a compulsion, not an impusle

>> No.1507613

The point you're missing OP is that many "mental illnesses" are actually just behaviors that are outside of social mores. A few decades ago, homosexuality was in the DSM. Now it is not.

Normative behavior is determined by cultural standards, not by science. Psychology is not a science, no matter how much it tries to pass itself off as such.

>> No.1507616

This is twice I've seen a troll thread at the top of the stack about trannies.

Let the APA handle it and fuck off.

>> No.1507621

>>1507571
Transsexuals hide who they are, either after the transition, or before because they know people will ostracize them or even harm them if anyone finds out.

>> No.1507629

>>1507613
Saying clinical psychology = psychology is like saying medicine = biology.

>> No.1507632

>>1507592
Are you serious? People give false confessions that would land them in jail for life if the police believed them. People with factitious disorder will even inject themselves with bacteria to give themselves infections. Some of them go so far as to undergo surgery. So if you're done talking out your ass, can we continue?

>> No.1507635

>>1507588
>But perhaps the person has simply mentally compartmentalized all of their feelings of dysphoria into the removal of that limb, and it is enough to alleviate their symptoms.

occam's razor
Why cant it just be that transgender is just another sub category that would explain why self amputees don't identify as another gender or chop of multiple parts.

Also I think it would be best If we all namefaged ITT because it is becoming a cluster fuck in here.

>> No.1507636

>>1507613

i thought it's only gone because fags stuck their noses in and lobbied it out

>> No.1507639

>>1507603
Sorry my bad compulsion then.

>> No.1507643

>>1507621
>>1507592
Jesus christ are you two retarded? I am saying that we need someone to verify that people are actually suffering from gender dysphoria not saying that transgenderism is fucking fake.

>> No.1507644

>>1507593
An impulse like in wanting to have sex or eat food or keep your penis (I assume you're male)? If we're being so general we can only call it motivation.

>> No.1507655

We can't define everything that isn't "normal" as a mental illness. "Normal" people don't browse 4chan or play dorf fort or argue about whether or not transgenderism should be a mental illness because it's squicky, so by that standard we should all be considered diseased. Let us hold hands and revel in our newfound illness.

>> No.1507656

>>1507635
Occam's razor cannot be applied to a person's reasoning.

>> No.1507659

>>1507643
Then you should probably say that. That DOES happen. People must pass by two psychologists who say they do indeed are/want to become female (or male), they aren't just confused or faking it, and they have suffered long-term distress by their condition. They also must live as a female for a full year! Only then can they get sex reassignment surgery. As for hormones, I believe they can get a prescription whenever.

>> No.1507667

>>1507643
And where did I say that it shouldn't be verified? People with gender dysphoria obviously do get therapy. They NEED to get therapy in order to get [legally prescribed] hormones and SRS. The way you said it made it seem like you were accusing the majority of transgendered people of just making up their shit for attention.

>> No.1507671

>>1507613
see this
>>1507398
and this
>>1507593

Also one could argue that homosexuality can become a mental illness if that person develops and obsessive fetish due to societys taboo about being gay.
I personally believe that the only "heath/normal" homosexuals are the ones that feel they choose to like the same gender like bisexuals.
(ok I don't think I did a very good job explaining myself on this one ether but im not here to talk about homosexuality really I think all humans are bisexual but lets please not get into that)

>> No.1507676

>>1507636
That's another way to put it I guess.

I'll mention for the 87% agnostics/atheists on here, for some perspective, that atheism was also considered a psychological disorder until some decades ago.

>> No.1507680

>>1507656
And why not?

>> No.1507683

sigh...

Trans here and kinda "sane" about it, haven't done anything about it yet and I'm not sure I'll ever do. For many years I tried to find a reason to why I'm this way, but after some time I figured out it just didn't matter, one thing that is absolutely constant about all trans people is that IT CAN'T BE FIXED. I think I may be trying to postpone something that is inevitable though...

>> No.1507701

>>1507206
is either a time traveler or a seer who saw which direction this thread was headed.

>> No.1507704

>>1507671
Uhh. What. That isn't how sexuality works. There are no homosexuals who "choose" to be [primarily] attracted to the same sex, no more than you "chose" to NOT be [primarily] attracted to the same sex. Why the fuck would you even WANT to be gay when it's such a heavily stigmatized and oppressed group?

>> No.1507710

>Because therapy isn't a magical cure-all panacea and sometimes the only solution is to give them what they want?

>It's important to determine whether or not the person is really suffering from some type of dysphoria, or if they are simply doing it for the attention.

>>1507659
>>1507667
That was my first post on the matter. Where in there do I give any type of indication that I believe people with gender dysphoria are faking it? Because I'm pretty sure I am indicating that I believe it is a real condition and that some people can pretend to have it so it is a good idea to differentiate between the people who are suffering from it and those who are pretending.

please point out which post I made that sounds accusatory.

>> No.1507714

>>1507683
You might want to look into hormones pretty soon. The longer you put it off, the worse the results will be. You can do a trial run to see if you're happy with it.

>> No.1507716

Did you know that mist child abuser gro up to be chold abuser theirselves?

Did you know that if you lack a father growing up then you are more likely yo be gay?

Sexuality is a choice, though not necessarily a conscience one.

>> No.1507720

>>1507680
Because then everyone's reason for doing everything is simply "because they wanted to." It is the simplest explanation and based on Occam's razor, it must therefore be true.

>> No.1507722

>>1507710
The post you responded to didn't state that people SHOULDN'T get therapy, just that it doesn't always work.

>> No.1507729

>>1507716
What is a mist child, and how does it relate to cholds?

>> No.1507735

>>1507714
Yeah, but if you take hormones for some time you become sterile. It's a pretty big choice to make and not one that should be rushed into.

>> No.1507744

>>1507655
>because it's squicky

Stoped reading right there
This isn't about "squickyness"
This isn't about making tranys "feel bad"

This is just a discussion on weather or A is related to X and Z and trying to figure out why A's feel like A's. Or at least that whats it's supposed to be about. I am ignoring all posts about the morality of chopping off limps for that exact reason.

>> No.1507745
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1507745

>>1507716
No, research does not support your statements.

>> No.1507757

>>1507722
Exactly. I was pointing out why therapy is necessary.

>> No.1507760

>>1507716
Did you know that the more older brothers your mother gave birth to before you, the more likely you are to be gay?

Did you know that homosexual peoples' brains symmetries resemble the opposite sex?

Did you know they have identified genes in moths, rats and other animals that when modified will cause them to sexually pursue other animals of the same sex?

>> No.1507762

>>1507720
No that's called being way too broad with Occam's razor.
If a humans brain is like software and not a magic thinking box you should be able to use Occam's razor to solve smaller problems with in the mind.

>> No.1507767

>>1507714
ehhh... I thought HARD about it but you know, this world is not perfect, so I know any attempt to transition might ruin my life completely, some years ago I'd not think twice but now things are different...

>> No.1507768

>>1507735
Assuming he's male and post-pubescent, estrogen doesn't really do all that much to permanently change the body. You'll grow breasts, but that will stop as soon as you go off hormones. Taking hormones doesn't stop you from producing testosterone.

>> No.1507770

>>1507716
my father died when i was 15, is this the reason why i'm still single? ;~ ;

>> No.1507773

>>1507716
Exactly. It's all about choice. I believe that adult human beings are capable of judgement, and should be treated this way - not as children needing to be protected from their own foolishness by the state.

>> No.1507777

>>1507770

It is bound to have an effect on you. I do not know what though. try not to make this personal.

>> No.1507780

Anyone get the impression that humanity is too sick to survive.

>> No.1507782

Did you know that Roman aristocracy was expected to have sex with slaves but not other Romans.

Did you know that many straight poeople have gay sex in jail.

Sexuality can be a choice.

>> No.1507783

Mental illness is effectively defined through utilitarian means and doesn't have much in the way of objective criteria. Basically, if it does harm, it's a mental illness. Does it do harm? Well, that's another discussion entirely.

>> No.1507789

>>1507762
Jesus man. I was pointing out how vague it is to say "Occam's razor" when talking about human behavior. Because it is not clear what the simplest explanation is. Got it?

>> No.1507790

>>1507716
What is this I don't even.........

>> No.1507791

>>1507773
seconded. i think the human brain can make a choice between :
- i like dicks and males, i'm gonna have sex with a male.
- i like females and bewbs. i'm gonna have sex with a girl.

or
- i like both.


i really doubt hormones have a real influence on the decisions we make. it sure have an importance but the final decision is left to ourselves.

>> No.1507797

>>1507768
Since you don't know that most transgender mtf individuals take both anti-androgens and estrogen, I'll also assume that you don't know what prolonged exposure to either does to a physically male body. Perhaps you should look it up sometime before you discuss it?

>> No.1507801

>>1507782
Did you know many straight people are in jail for numerous years without any contact with women and have no other option for sex partners? Did you know many of those people are forced or coerced into sex under duress?

Choosing to have sex with a man is a lot different than choosing to actually be attracted to men.

>> No.1507806
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1507806

>>1507782
Can everybody do me a favor and just ignore this guy so we can stay on topic. This has nothing to do with anything we are talking about here.

>> No.1507812

>>1507791
>i like dicks and males, i'm gonna have sex with a male.
the latter clause is a choice, the former is not.

>> No.1507821

>>1507801
yeah. remember midnight express ?


sometimes, a hole is a hole...

>> No.1507825

>>1507791
Gay people CHOOSE to like people of the same sex? Tell that to christians who say they are "struggling with homosexuality." They didn't choose, they are just attracted to other men (or women)

Tell pedophiles, sadists, voyeurs, and fetishists who have gone through extensive psychotherapy and been completely unable to change their preferences that they chose to like what they like.

>> No.1507838
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1507838

My god what have I done....

>> No.1507841
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1507841

>>1507478
Yeah, Craig would be all like "what the fuck is this shit? Kill it with synthetic bacteria!" and then catman would be dead.

>> No.1507854

>>1507783

Pervese sex acts are damaging to society as they cause a break down of traditional values.

Gay people are more likely to be involved in drugs, crime and have dysfunctional families.

From an utalitarian viewpoint, pervese behaviour should not be tolerated.

>> No.1507856

>>1507768
You don't seem to know much about HRT, do you?
In the Hormone Repalcement Therapy there are 2 substances used, anti-androgen to stop the ballz from producing more testosterone and estrogen to replace it. The estrogen then will start changing a lot of things, boobs sure is the first thing that come to mind, but there is more, it will "kill" your libido, tour muscles will flatten and be more like girl muscles, your body fat will change places too, bodyhir will decrease but not dissapear, it can only be dealt with with laser or eletrolisis, hair will become thiner, and there is the possible bad stuff like cancer and heart deseases, but who cares... LOL

>> No.1507866
File: 142 KB, 432x432, philosoraptor free will.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1507866

It all boils down to this philosophical question:

Should we allow people to do things that we believe will hurt them or not? Should we protect people from themselves?

>> No.1507867

Without gays, straight people wouldn't exist. It's an essential opposite. The same as black and white. If white people didn't exist, there would just be people. We live in a universe of opposites. How fucking long do you have to live to realize that. Get your head out of your propaganda books and take a good fucking look outside.

>> No.1507870

>>1507854
>Pervese sex acts are damaging to society as they cause a break down of traditional values.

Have these values been proven beneficial?

>> No.1507873

>>1507866

I argue no. Their is no such thing as individualism, we are a product of our culture. Laws should be conservative in nature to keep the status quo. Change is damaging.

>> No.1507874

>>1507867
You're retarded.

>> No.1507878

>>1507825
well, kinda. it's just a question of tastes and affinities. example : some people enjoy chocolate, some others dislike it. gah, too fat, too much sugar... no one forces you to eat chocolate, there's apples, bananas... you have the choice. later you decide to buy a delicious cake with chocolate creams of all varieties and you enjoy it because you like it.

you can't compare that kind of choice with things that are more relevant of psychiatric cases like having weird fetishes, being a pedo, a zoo, or a sadist.
childhood and past events leads to that kind of behavior, it's what we usually call a mental disease, at various degrees. low, or high, up to some guy that's gonna make a chainsaw massacre in a kindergarten singing his love for jesus christ.

>> No.1507888

>>1507866
Motherfucker

THAT'S NOT WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff

>> No.1507891
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1507891

>>1507867
yes, you're retarded. cause biologically speaking, there are males and females because both can reproduce and perpetuate the species. by default, all creatures tend to be heterosexual. only a small percentage tend to differ, then it's up to them.

>> No.1507895

>>1507888

Anon is the thread, not you.

>> No.1507900
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1507900

>>1507867
>If white people didn't exist, there would just be people. We live in a universe of opposites.

>> No.1507906

>>1507873
>Their is no such thing as individualism, we are a product of our culture.

Yes and no. We are also a product of our genes and of chaos - unpredictable random events. Incidentally, there can also be unpredictable random events that affect our genes - mutations.

>Laws should be conservative in nature to keep the status quo. Change is damaging.

Occasionally, the status quo is damaging. Was the transition from monarchy to the democratic republic damaging?

>> No.1507909
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1507909

this thread has become dildos...

>> No.1507914

>>1507906

In some countries yes. Look at french and russian revolutions. The brits did it much slower, had equally results but much less bloodshed.

>> No.1507916

>>1507866
In a UK study, almost 90% reported happiness after sex reassignment surgery. As for those taking hormones, that's something you can stop whenever you want. Clearly, they want what they're doing.

>> No.1507922

Gay - Straight
Male - Female
Up - Down
Left - Right
Adult - Child
Baby - Elder
Black - White


Ehm. How long until people start understanding that these opposites are NOT just coincidence.

>> No.1507925
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1507925

>>1507909
LOOK AT ME EVERYONE
NOW LOOK BACK TO YOUR RETARDED POSTS
NOW LOOK BACK TO ME

THIS THREAD IS NOW A DILDO IN YOUR ASS

thanks alot assholes /sci/ you make me want to vomit

>> No.1507927
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1507927

>>1507888
it can be another branch of this thread's subject:

who are we to judge what people does with their sexuality or bodies as long they doesn't interfere or offend others ?

cause the big debate is totally about it.

is it sane to let people become what they want without questioning their choices ? even if that leads to their own destruction or even inspire others to do so, as liberal we can go ?

or instead should we format everybody in some kind of normality, may it be justified by psychiatry, society's morals or some religion. no differences. no deviant sexuality. it can be acceptable but how do we first define what's normality if there's, as we said ITT such a thing...


there's no normality, only one amongst a thousand face of madness.

>> No.1507940

Realtivity is a new concept. People evolved to believe in morals objectively. People always form govenments and religions because they need a stucture to adhere to. Different cultures and behaviours threaten society.

Being gay is ok but it is not ok to be gay in our society.

>> No.1507944

>>1507916
Great, you've found the problem: One man's idea of harm is another man's idea of happiness. This is why I think people should be allowed to do whatever they desire to their own bodies - because absolute, objective criteria for what is beneficial and what is harmful do not exist, and legislating on the matter would only be taking one group's opinion and imposing it through force on everybody else.

It's funny that the people who advocate banning transgender procedures also tend to support the free market, a system built around the assumption that different people value different things, in which individuals can buy and sell close to whatever the hell they want. This is allowed even to their own detriment - foolish investment choices, buying a television which they then sit in front of all day growing fat, buying fattening foods - hell, these people support letting everyone buy GUNS.

I actually agree with them on the market stuff, I'm just a little bit less self-contradictory...

>> No.1507951

>>1507925
OP, scroll down.

Look in the lower-right-hand corner. Make sure you're in this thread and not on the front page.

There, do you see it? Delete button.

I dare you to do it.

>> No.1507955

>>1507856
But if you go off estrogen and anti-androgens, you'll start producing male levels of hormones again and it will all come back. Obviously estrogen changes the body, but the resurgence of testosterone will reverse most of them.

>> No.1507956
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1507956

>>1507922

>> No.1507985
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1507985

>>1507951
I have a better idea lets try this

>> No.1507995

>>1507985
Don't you hate what your thread has become?

Delete it.

>> No.1507996
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1507996

>>1507951
seems like OP is his nick.

like my nick, i'm not really a patachu. it's text i typed and firefox saved it.

>> No.1507997

>>1507955
Well, yes, but breasts will stay no matter what, only with surgery you would be able to remove them and your sperm will be TOTALY dead after six months of estrogen, it's ireversible.

For female-to-males, their voice goes deeper, they develop beard and get bald and those too is irreversible.

>> No.1508000

>>1507867
What kind of a fucking dipshit mindset would you have to be in to think that black people and white people are opposites? In the context of colors, yes, black and white are opposite, but it ends there, shithead. If you haven't noticed, black people are not literally the color black, and white people are not literally the color white, that's just a vague fucking description of human skin shade. In your reasoning, a doberman is the opposite of a labradore. Fucking how??? GTFO.

>> No.1508004

>>1507927

"who are we to judge what people does with their sexuality or bodies as long they doesn't interfere or offend others ?"

i was with you right up until you used the word "offend". interefere with others, sure. offend...? i don't think so. people are offended by shit they're never experienced or even understand.

>> No.1508009

>>1507996
God damn it you're right. He's not the real OP.

NOW WHO'LL DELETE THIS TERRIBLE THREAD? FUCK.

>> No.1508022

Transgenderism is seen across cultures throughout history.

>> No.1508023

>>1507997
That's why I mentioned breasts as a permanent change and was only referring to estrogen. Testosterone is much less reversible.

>> No.1508024

>>1507995
No that would only make you feel like you won.

I rather just keep it here and watch you all fight in your own feces like monkey pig hybrids.

>> No.1508059 [DELETED] 

Check ma dubz

>> No.1510083

bump

>> No.1510096

>>1508022
So are all sorts of birth defects and mental retardation. What's your point?

>> No.1512166

Anyone actually smart here today who wants to put their two cents in?

>> No.1512182

>>1507180
>Possible

>Likly