/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.14964792]

>no one has ever been cured by (((therapy)))
When will the world at large acknowledge that that shit is as much of a scam as chiropractors? Or is it career suicide to call therapists scam artists?

I'm not denying the existence of solid mental maladies. Depression and panic attacks exist, sure. But 99% of therapists dealing with it are fucking witch doctors selling snake oil because they read the wikipedia article about buddhism. The 15-yo white girl who's into astrology could deal with shit just as "well" as they do.

Science will never make any progress on mental illness until they acknowledge the fact that they're doing a garbage fucking job of treating it at the moment, and come clean about that fact to the public, instead of siphoning billions from innocent idiots who don't know any better and think they're seeing an actual scientifically sound doctor.

[Anonymous No.14964839]

>>14964792
Honestly that was pretty obvious to me. If I go to a shrink it's simply to have someone listen to my emotional rants. I don't expect magical cures for shit like ocd or autism.

[Anonymous No.14965063]

>>14964792
>therapy
I don't even get what people mean when they say "therapy". What kind of "therapy" is this that they are usually talking about? What exactly is it, what type, what is it classified as?

[Anonymous No.14965070]

I went to therapy for about a year over ten years ago to address my childhood issues. Changed my life for the better and haven't needed therapy since. And I'm someone who you may categorize as resistant to authority. If you want therapy to be successful, the secret is to get over yourself.

[Anonymous No.14965075]

>>14965070
What kind of therapy?

[Anonymous No.14965078]

>>14965075
Mostly talk therapy. I told her from day one that I didn't respect psychology save for CBT, which she also specialized in. I took an active role in researching everything she told me, and she gave me homework when needed. We focused mostly on reframing thoughts. Also joined group therapy at her suggestion which was "semi structured". Half talking, half homework, with personal therapy used to supplement it. I was resistant to it at first but it was immensely helpful and I'm glad I did it.

[nonnarcissism No.14965273]

>>14964792
i agree?

[Anonymous No.14965934]

>>14965078
>>14965070
how is what they're doing any better than going to a guru, or a priest, and them telling you to "reframing your sinful thoughts", etc.. All of those are equally invalid approaches that may or may not work for some people. It's as unscientific as "10 ways to make girls fall in love with you".
That being said, happy it worked for you desu.

[Anonymous No.14966105]

>>14964792
>complains
>provides no solutions

[Anonymous No.14966183]

>>14966105
>Points out snake oil doesn't cure cancer
>Doesn't offer up a cure for cancer
really, anon?

[frenanon No.14966315]

>>14966105
Yes good morning sir, please invest in memecoin for blockchain vaccine cure, and may your day be blessed with radiant light thank you.

What do if someone you know is going to (((therapy)))? Should I try to find out who this (((therapist))) is and investigate?
I almost feel obligated.
I'm sure I'll find no crazy connections with any particular institutions or anyone important.

[Anonymous No.14966397]

>>14966105
destroy industrial society

your tribe is supposed to be your therapist
ancient man went through terrible shit all the time

[Anonymous No.14966431]

>>14964792
Psychology is hard to research because of ethical concerns. What advancements have been made have mainly been in things unrelated to pain and illness such as learning and habit formation because one can ethically create experiments on these
Therapists are not really scan artists because they are honest about what it is upfront.

[Anonymous No.14966541]

>>14965934
For starters, my therapist wasn't trying to sell me anything. If I got cured and never had to see her again, we both would have been happy. Mindfulness is the most useful lesson I took from her. Trust me man, I get what you're saying. Personally it doesn't bother me. I'm a human, and so are you. It's okay to be a human and to need help or guidance. Like I said I'm pretty resistant to therapy, but I poured my heart and soul into it and got payoffs.

[Anonymous No.14966553]

>>14965934
>how is what they're doing any better than going to a guru, or a priest
A Priest might have also helped him with his social life and the community.

[Anonymous No.14966554]

>>14966397
Your priest is supposed to be your therapist. Confession and absolution is about relieving all ills, not just sin.

[Anonymous No.14966557]

>>14965063
I saw a counselor for six months that was licensed in cognitive behavioral therapy and it helped me a lot. All they are is someone to talk to to try and unfuck yourself, they can't do it for you and therapy unironically doesn't work for a lot of people and most of the time it's because they just don't want to/aren't ready/just aren't going to change or try to improve things. It helped me a lot and helped me change my perspective on life and helped me through some hard shit I've had to deal with, and the lessons I learned during it I still use to this day. You can't really just throw pills or therapy at someone and expect it to magically cure anything, they have to want to do the work and get through their own shit and it's mcfucking difficult.

There's also really shitty therapists and counselors and that sucks also, I went through four before I found one that I liked and wasn't a nutjob, pussy, or pill pusher.

[Anonymous No.14967190]

>>14965934
You don’t seem to understand the massive gap between just telling someone to do something and knowing how to actually work with them through it successfully.

[Anonymous No.14967191]

>>14964792
No one can help you with your mental illness. Common practice should be encouranged and enable you to kill yourself.

[Anonymous No.14967204]

>>14964792
A lot of the time a guy just needs pussy.
A guy I know was in therapy for depression and social anxiety for a couple of years and wasn't really getting anywhere. I found out that he hadn't been laid in eight years and that the girls he'd slept with didn't really excite him physically and were settle fucks. I urged him to hire a hot escort. After a few weeks of resisting my suggestion, he bit the bullet, banged a hot escort, and his improvement was basically instantaneous.

[Anonymous No.14967211]

>>14967204
Normie "mental issues" are not real mental issues.

[Anonymous No.14967293]

>>14964792
Based.

[Anonymous No.14968028]

>>14965934
This. Someone you pull off the street has as much chance of defusing a hostage situation as an FBI negotiator, we just shouldn't bother with non science like that.

[Anonymous No.14968497]

>>14968028
proof?

[Anonymous No.14968541]

Altough it's true that there's a lot of:

-scams
-monetary interests
-pseudoscience

It's also true that the vast majority of the population, like you op. Have no idea how to interpret data or the world around them and their opinion on complex matters its at best, useles, at worse useles. Its useless youre useless.

See, a lot of people who have mild issue get help from therapists. But since their issues are not severe you would probably clasify it as a scam/bullshit.

But if youre refering to the most serious cases then, the thing is, serious cases are by definition hard to cure. Yes if a kind word could set a guy who legit tries to blow his brains on a straight path he would have been cured long ago. If he struggles with severe depression for a while then he has a severe problem. And again. SEVERE PROBLEMS ARE USUALLY HARD TO CURE. Think of it like a bullet to the brain, you wouldnt shit on a neurosurgeon because he only saves 1/20 people who got shot in the head, but you would shit on a psychiatrist because he only manages to save 1 out of 20 guys with severe depression. You probably also shit on him because the guy he saves is on med and has a very conditioned lifestyle, because you, being a lazy shit who never attempted anything for real in his sorry ass life, think everything is easy. You veeeery likely also believe in some fruity liberal shit like that "conditions in mental institutions are inhumane, they need love and care and 50 acres of land ". Barring in mind the fact that youre not willing to pay for it, youre probably not willing to be the person who provides care to a guy who will try to stab you and shit in the wound, or someone who will literally attempt to murder whoever he has near because he thinks hes satan, even if its children. Hell you probably watn assurances that you wont run into that guy in the park. Of course YOU dont want to deal with the problem. You just want someone else to deal with these hard problems in an easy and magical way.

[Anonymous No.14968560]

>>14964792
>no one has ever been cured by (((therapy)))
I was. I couldn't even order food at a restaurant without getting scared when I was 17. Post therapy I still have a lot of autistic qualities about me but I can have friends and am generally thought of as pretty funny, confident, and smart. Sorry you have a naturally weak will, anon

[Anonymous No.14968609]

>>14968560
Op will argue that you werent really ill. Or that you got cured but without intervention of the professional. Or whatever bullshit allows him to cling to the illusion that there's a big world conspiracy against him and that the reason his life is shit is someone elses fault.

[Anonymous No.14968857]

>>14968560
>>14968609
OP here, what I will state is the fact that any counsilor or motivational speaker or guru or priest or even fucking Andrew Tate could've got you out of you out of your funk. Their shit is just as "valid" as the pseudo-science you call "therapy". I literally said that mental illnesses are real, no one is disputing that. But therapists are glorified counselors/motivational speakers, and don't have any actual scientifically proven cures. They'll just talk to you like a friend and ask you how you feel, which any faggot could do.

[Anonymous No.14968941]

>>14968857
>what I will state is the fact
you do not have a basic understanding on basic topics, you are barely a functional human being and probably underage. You certainly do not have the habit of reading upon such serious topics as statistics, mental health, epistemology, etc.. which are all necesary to even begin to aproach something with a certainty as big as "the fact is that". So the mere way in which you speak makes your opinion automatically invalid, and i can't reply again or by extension i will also be invalid, because when an opinion is so wrong and uninformed it becomes dangerous to even listen to it, because if we did nothing would ever get done except hearing uninformed opinions.Bye

[Anonymous No.14968982]

>>14968941
I'm a PhD student focusing on Data Science and Psychometrics at Stanford University. I've literally published papers at big conferences on this shit. I am more qualified on this topic than you and everyone you know combined, probably.

Keep seething, keep crying, and keep worshipping your pseudo-scientific cult that is (((therapy))). But deep down, you will always remember the time you were completely and utterly BTFO.

[Anonymous No.14968986]

>>14968982
>>14968941
Also, I've literally taught statistics and probability theory at university for 3 years. So indeed, if you wanted to miss the mark completely, you did a perfect job.

[Anonymous No.14969126]

>>14968982
>>14968986
it's telling that every other poster on other boards larps as chads while /sci/ stemcels larp as.... phd students... lmao...


t. /lit/

[Anonymous No.14969156]

>>14969126
cry all you want, but I ain't larping. I can't post my papers else I'll get doxxed and never get a job, but I can easily prove shit by showing I can solve probability problems that you'll never be able to.

Example: I have two cats. I say one of them is a boy born on Tuesday. What's the probability the other cat is a boy? If you can't give the correct answer to that question, then stfu. It's elementary probability, fwiw.

[Anonymous No.14969228]

>>14968941
>>14969126
If you don't answer >>14969156 within a few hours, I'll assume you were completely BTFO and are too ashamed to ever show your face here again. At that point, I'll just post the answer myself to prove to other anons I'm not an illiterate fagguette like you and have some clout when I say that therapy is a fucking shitty pseudo-scientific scam.

[Anonymous No.14969235]

This was studied intensely by insurance companies in the 80s and 90s. Why would they pay $100-200/hr for a PhD, when a trained coach could get the same results for $50/hr? Unfortunately, they determined that the PhD or PsyD really was more effective. If it was not, insurance companies would not pay. Good luck getting an insurance company to pay for a homeopathist or chiropractor, for example.

[Anonymous No.14969237]

>>14969235
I'm honestly surprised by this. Thanks for giving a good answer. Still not totally convinced, though. It could easily be a PR move by insurance companies who know they'll get utterly fucked if they're not proponents of "muh mental health"

[Anonymous No.14969238]

>>14969228
Yeah, that's just not how /sci/ works. The value of this board is that it is sometimes visited by people who actually have the education, training, and experience to contribute meaningfully and helpfully to conversations. These people typically do not have a lot of time to spare. Trolls have chased away most of them.
You'll just have to be patient.

[Anonymous No.14969240]

>>14969237
They would be proponents of mental health by paying $50/hr to a life coach, if a life coach was as effective.

[Anonymous No.14969245]

>>14964792
there is no cure. the problem is with you. there's not a magic bullet to just fix you. there's no drug to take. there's no words someone can say to you which will fix you.
the purpose of the therapy is to make you accept your reality and how to cope with that.
therapy is not a thing that you endure so someone can fix you, it's a thing that you do so you can fix you.

[Anonymous No.14969253]

>>14965934
That's the funny thing, religion can help people deal with mental illness as well. Not always, mind you. Obviously trying to beat the "demons" out of an autistic sperg isn't going to help anyone, but on the other hand, venting to a priest is better than keeping your sadness, anger, and/or hatred bottled up inside waiting to explode.

[Anonymous No.14969255]

>>14969237
The issue is that while a "therapist" (usually a nurse with a license) might be as bogus as a life coach, there are plenty of behavioral therapists who can do extensive cognitive reprogramming on people, which does work, whereas the layperson life coach or PUA guy who can do that is in the minority of their group. Insurance acts on small margins with giant groups so it's better to pay more for a bigger group of people to get helped even if 20-30% of PsyDs are full of shit.

Though you're better off seeing a priest. A) it's free. B) they're more likely to know how to help you and have their shit together than any life coach or psych.

[Anonymous No.14969257]

>>14969238
cheers, anon.
>>14969240
life coach's have reputations as scam artists though. Therapists have reputations as "muh mental health is important". PR-wise, you're not allowed to advocate to send them to life coach's etc., just as surely as you're not allowed to send them to Joel Osteen's megachurch. Therapists have won the PR war, and even (((insurance)))-fags had to bend the knee to them. Those're my thoughts.

If tobacco companies can get professionals to (((research))) that cigs are totally fine, there's no way in fuck that (((insurance))) companies wouldn't have research to completely discredit therapy, especially in the 90's/00's when therapy was literally snakeoil-tier. I'm almost certain the reason is cuz PR, and also maybe cuz there's free market demand for some sort of "theraputical" service.

[Anonymous No.14969262]

>>14964792
None of CBT is based on actual logic. It's all circular. Plus their observations aren't even backed up by empiricism half the time. It's unbelievable. It's basically the treatment equivalent of taking some random person's advice
>(Source: Dude trust me)

[Anonymous No.14969263]

>>14969257
Insurance companies used to pay chiropractors, in the 80s and before. The professional organizations of chiropractors and schools for training them opposed the decision to drop coverage as vehemently as you'd expect, and they lost. Chiropractic was fairly popular, then, too.
I think that typically, since the insurance companies have overwhelming amounts of money, and since they only survive by paying out less than they take in premiums, they lead much more often than they follow. Especially in the politically incorrect 80s and 90s, media bowed to the interests of whomever had the most money.

[Anonymous No.14969264]

>>14969262
It's very well-studied but the people you're arguing with about it probably don't want to say how they know. The answer of course is that CBT (and a lot of modern behavioral psychology) is based almost entirely on 60s and 70s CIA mind control research done on unwilling participants. It's fruit of a tainted tree and it's harder to get people to want to do it if you make them aware of the fact that it's brainwashing.

[Anonymous No.14969267]

>>14969263
It's definitely different now. You can see it with how squeamish actuaries are getting about the covid jab, where companies want to weasel out of paying death benefits but aren't able to buck the media narrative to drop people for cause since the cause is so politically charged.

[Anonymous No.14969269]

>>14969264
I don't doubt that it works. It's just circular is all, it's unfalsifiable too. You could literally abuse someone with it and gaslight their entire reality if you were evil enough

[Anonymous No.14969270]

>>14969267
There's just an unimaginable amount of government money at stake, globally. Even insurance companies can't stand up to that. It's just another instance of the golden rule at work.

[Anonymous No.14969273]

>>14969269
I would consider the results of the studies to be empirical. I'm not sure what you mean by saying that it's circular and unfalsifiable. Back when you were allowed to perform unethical human experimentation they did tests with control groups and it clearly had a positive experimental result.

[Anonymous No.14969280]

>>14969273
I go with the Skinnerian interpretations against mentalism and all that. I don't believe it's possible for someone to change their depression or anxiety through metacognitive training. It's all caused by the environment of the patient and completely implicit

[Anonymous No.14969286]

>>14969280
I'm not an expert on this, but I believe the goal of what you call metacognitive training is to influence and motivate the client to make particularly helpful changes in their environment by way of a process that includes trying to understand as fully as may be necessary the client's environment, and how they typically function within it. There is evidence that counselors with more experience tend to produce better and longer-lasting results.

[Anonymous No.14969289]

>>14969280
Oh yeah in the case of depression, and often in anxiety, you have to actually get rid of the things causing you stress for it to go away. If society is shit and your job is shit you'll feel shitty, and no amount of brainwashing can make you feel healthy (it'll just mess you up).

But for some conditions, for example anxiety related to traumatic stress where the traumatic event is in the past, it has strong experimental results which I think constitute a genuine cure. Behavioral Psychology can cure behavioral issues, but just like with meds people will apply the solution they know to every problem. You know, hammer:nail.

[Anonymous No.14969290]

>>14969286
>There is evidence that counselors with more experience tend to produce better and longer-lasting results.
This is to say, more correctly and specifically, that the same counselors tend to produce better and longer-lasting results as they progress through their careers.

[Anonymous No.14969300]

>>14969286
I don't doubt CBT works for any normie, I'm just saying it wouldn't work for most of the people here

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism
>>14969289
100%. I think studies should go towards brain-computer treatments or possible explorations of biofeedback. If there were a way to intervene using classical/operant conditioning it would be much more promising than some dipshit telling you to change your conscious beliefs

[Anonymous No.14969307]

>>14969300
>I'm just saying it wouldn't work for most of the people here
I've had counselors refuse me service after the first meeting. I tend to enjoy verbal sparing, and have a basic mistrust of authority. I can be combative, manipulative, deceitful, and cynical to the point of nihilism. I was going for war-related PTSD, but it has kind of gotten better on its own over the past decade or so. Talk therapy is not for everyone.
Freud said, just as an amusing quote, that the Irish are the only people immune to psychoanalysis.

[Anonymous No.14969316]

>>14964792
>no one has ever been cured by (((therapy)))
100% incorrect. Therapy did exponentially more than any psychiatric drug did. You are a sad man, pathetic at best. You blame the world for your own shortcomings.

[Anonymous No.14969327]

>>14969316
Whatever the fuck therapy has done to "cure" people, shit like religion, guru's, motivational speakers etc. have done just as "well". Fuck, just talking to a concerned friend who gives a shit has probably done infinitely better. In fact, just coming from a strong culture of not being a pussy faggot (like in China/Japan) has probably done loads better. Fucking military school has a better track record for producing functional adults than fucking child therapists do.

[Anonymous No.14969425]

>>14969300
>100%. I think studies should go towards brain-computer treatments or possible explorations of biofeedback. If there were a way to intervene using classical/operant conditioning it would be much more promising than some dipshit telling you to change your conscious beliefs
I somewhat think this is a bad take. In my opinion we should be trying to destroy systems that beat the average person down and rebuild ones that instill them with a sense of value and ambition. It's not right to condition someone to feel happy when they're still being crushed in reality, you're just replacing realism for delusion, basically making sane people mentally ill so they can cope with a society run by mentally ill weirdos.

[Anonymous No.14969504]

>>14964792
The first therapist I ever had was amazing. I remember talking to her like I remember a good LSD trip or a beautiful national park. She was a truly sensitive and caring woman who subtly guided my emotions and thoughts somewhere productive that lives with my perspective to this day - all the way down to her office which was large, lit in sunlight, and had you sitting in the center surrounded by quasi-spiritual and wooden decorations on a comfortable couch.

I didn't realize how good she was until I had another. Square room, a box in a hallway, stupid chairs, and a lady that examined me like she worked an office job she didn't like.

"Therapy" is not the magic. What you have to do to be a qualified therapist will not make you a good one. In reality there are people who are emotional healers and sometimes people are blessed enough that those healers go through with the paperwork and schooling to become a "therapist."

[Anonymous No.14969517]

>>14969504
Pretty nice description, anon. I'm glad you had a good therapeutic experience. I hope you find another counselor you can work with, if you need or want to.

[Anonymous No.14969521]

>>14969504
If therapy is an actual science, it shouldn't matter what fuck you get. A serial killer homophobe could perform long division just as well as Terrence Tao at UCLA. The person doesn't matter, the reproducible scientific basis for what they do is what matters.

But (((therapy))) isn't a science, just as surely as Andrew Tate, Joel Olsteen, and your local priest aren't scientists. They're a bunch of people who have some thoughts/opinions, and apply what they THINK is right. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. But there's no cold hard science involved.

[Anonymous No.14969525]

>>14969521
no shit and who cares
I don't need science to pleasure my penis or enjoy a steak either

[Anonymous No.14969538]

>>14969525
That's fine. Nothing wrong with subjective feel-good ideas/fields. But I don't want anyone to pretend that therapy is an actual science. It's a less scientific profession than fucking "gendre studies".

[Anonymous No.14969543]

>>14969538
there's a reason to think of intellectual pursuits as occupying a spectrum between hard and soft - surely you can perform experiments on therapy, but no, you can't going to get some autistic formula for therapy in our lifetimes.

[Anonymous No.14969544]

>>14969521
I'm inclined to agree. Science can be helpful. Surveys and statistical analysis can reveal patterns that therapists might use in specific situations. But at its heart, psychotherapy is an art, and a gift. People can work on their couch-side manner, but if they lack true empathy and wisdom, they'll never be as effective as people who have and employ empathy and wisdom. They tend to be more effective than religious counselors because they do not rely on otherworldly explanations and miracle cures. But a truly empathetic and wise religious counselor can still achieve good results in some cases.
Even medicine is not an exact science.

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736%2815%2960696-1.pdf

[Anonymous No.14969733]

>>14965078
>CBT
this threw me off until i realized you were referring to cognitive behavioral therapy

[Anonymous No.14969847]

>>14968857
>and don't have any actual scientifically proven cures
Why are you saying this when you've never even tried looking for a research study on the matter? Like it or not, there are different methods to helping someone overcome their issues that you can find research papers for. The issue is, you're looking at something that deals with emotions and brain chemistry and coming at it from an extremely autistic lens where you want something purely numerical when you can't boil down a human personality like that. Legitimately low iq

[Anonymous No.14969851]

>>14964792
Therapy actually helped me with my trauma. I probably would've killed myself if my therapist didn't walk me through it.
I still experience panic episodes about it, but it's at least manageable now

[Anonymous No.14969855]

>>14969156
>>14969228
OP here. Since no one gave the answer, I'll post it here. The answer is 13/27. If you're curious as to why, feel free to ask desu.

[Anonymous No.14969858]

>>14969851
glad you're alive anon, but if I can ask: what did that therapist say that any other decent thoughtful human being who cared about you couldn't've said? No need to answer if it's too personal desu.

[Anonymous No.14969869]

>>14969858
The first "therapy" I received was by my spiritual aunt that was a practicing "life coach". Gave seminars and etc, but wasn't really medically certified in any capacity. Never really helped my case, she always tried to feed me stuff about alternative forms of meditation.
Then I looked elsewhere. She was properly certified, knew proven techniques that would get me out of that headspace. And generally tried to materialize/pin-point the abstract and painful thought patterns in my mind so I could subdue them. Or walk me through the reoccurring traumatic scenarios and images in my mind so I don't fear them anymore
That's the difference between a decent thoughtful human being and a certified psychologist/therapist. I can talk to my mom or aunt about anything, receive emotional support, yet it still would not help my traumatic episodes

[Anonymous No.14969872]

>>14966397
>ancient man went through terrible shit all the time
Ancient man also didn't live to be very old. And we have no reason to believe they were mentally healthy all the time.

[Anonymous No.14969929]

>>14964792
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2wyr0FnY7k
This is a good video of neuroscientists with opposing views debating the topic, one of them is kind of on your side, the rest are all over the place, but I think it is a good place for you to see where the debate is at in the topics you seem uncertain of.

[Anonymous No.14969976]

Sounds to me like you've never talked to a psychiatrist or psychologist in your entire life. Like psychiatry has a lot of bad actors, but a good psychologist is trained in dialogue, not describing everything wrong with you. I'm not defending the general issue of people getting meds they don't need, but you kind of sound retarded lumping this whole thing together.

[Anonymous No.14969978]

>>14964792
Anime is for loser faggots. Fuck 4chan. Fuck japs. Get a life you little fuckers.

[Anonymous No.14970941]

>>14969872
That's a misconception. The average life expectancy was low because tons of people died as children. But if you made it past childhood, you'd live to 60+ no problem.

[Anonymous No.14970946]

It was common for over half the kids born to die before the age of five. Assume the average age at which they died was 2 years old. Then if the average age of death back then was about 40 then the true average life expectancy for adults was about 80.

[Anonymous No.14971719]

>therapy is considered actual science
>eugenics is considered pseudo-science
Just nuke the world desu

[Anonymous No.14971762]

>>14964792
My parents sent me to a therapist all through school to try to convince me that I had an anger disorder and I should just calm down. I have autism and kids were screaming in my ears all day. My only experience with a therapist has been that they gaslit me about actual torture. I don't trust anyone about anything anymore.

[Anonymous No.14972428]

>>14971762
Parents should've sent you to military school instead. Or given you more beatings.

[Anonymous No.14972446]

>weeb picture in OP
*hides thread*

[Anonymous No.14972481]

>>14968028
>FBI negotiator

[Anonymous No.14972931]

>>14972446
>Come to Chinese basket weaving website
>See Chinese basket weaving
>Hides thread
I shiggy diggy desu.

[Anonymous No.14974042]

>>14972481
What did he mean by this desu?

[Anonymous No.14976235]

Bump