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/sci/ - Science & Math

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File: 2.15 MB, 1000x1500, FreedomandMachines-1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14956056 No.14956056 [Reply] [Original]

free will btfo

>> No.14956060

>>14956056
The moment schizos and christcucks on 4chan get over their delusions and accept computational theory of the mind as our current best understanding is the moment hell freezes over.

>> No.14956064

>>14956056
what kind of schizophrenic retardation lacking any self-awareness is this? a human makes a comic about robots and writes their entire discussion of the lack of free will humans have while implicilty making the robots have free will because the can discuss things freely? is this what materialism and computer science does to one's brain?

the 5th argument already puts this question to the grave
https://crossexamined.org/5-arguments-existence-free-will/

if you still think it doesn't after reading everything you might be retarded, or you might be right and free will doesnt exist for you so you cannot think it does

>> No.14956067

>>14956060
>computational theory of the mind as our current best understanding
I don't give a rat's ass about "our" "current" "understanding" of anything you negroid, go clean your own ass before claiming anything about things scientists don't have the remote understanding of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Replication_crisis

>> No.14956085

>>14956064
>the robots have free will
>because the can discuss things freely
Or maybe they were programmed to discuss these things specifically.

>> No.14956091

>>14956067
>implying 2000 year old desert semites have any understanding of anything.

>> No.14956098

>>14956056
It's obvious that free will is not real. Why do christian retards keep seething over this for so many centuries?

>> No.14956106

>>14956091
>implying 2000 year old desert semites have any understanding of anything.
They kind of do when you see what happens when society thinks like you and decides to be better than those "2000 year old desert semites". Examples including "fighting the patriarchy" instead of having patriarchs like the Bible suggests (to put it lightly), sex liberation instead of valuing marriage (see demographic crisis, fatherless homes, men opting out of the market), fornicating and other types of sexual perversions instead of having children (see lgbt movement who made politics out of their filthy sexual fetishes).

Also, how the fuck would desert semites know anything about naval architecture? (see genesis, the ark part)

>> No.14956108

>>14956098
It's fine if you don't have it, your programmers made you this way, you will never not be an npc and you can't understand how non-npcs operate.

>> No.14956111

>>14956108
>>14956106
You are deranged and mentally ill. Get treated immediately

>> No.14956119
File: 76 KB, 640x360, t1larg.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14956119

>>14956106
If you don't like western liberalism, why don't you go congregate with your fellow brothers and sisters under jesus christ?

>> No.14956120

Does a self-guided missile have free will?

>> No.14956124

>>14956064
>christcuck
>accuses others of schizophrenia
kek

>> No.14956130

>>14956056
>unlike us computers, they cannot modify themselves freely
That's called learning but I already know /sci/ is anti-education. How else would I be able to teach myself how to play piano? And you can even modify personality using behavioral psychology. I guess in some sense you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
>they claim consciousness controls their decisions, but they don't understand what it is
We know what consciousness is, we just don't know how it works and it's exact origins.

>> No.14956133

>>14956111
>You are deranged and mentally ill. Get treated immediately
Have you considered that perhaps I am just hyper-aware of the situation we live in?

Look at the world around you, more and more women are becoming single mothers, "strong independent women need no man", they end up homeless begging for spare change. Youngsters are having less and less children, not even the entire africa could solve this problem as they are also just learning stupdid and useless shit like darwinism and CRT.

>>14956119
>If you don't like western liberalism, why don't you go congregate with your fellow brothers and sisters under jesus christ?
Christians are just satanists with a veneer of righteousness, I'm more inclined to call muslims and jews my brothers since they actualy follow some law.

And yes, i do not like humanism, it is a dishonest and evil ideology that uses relativism when it's convinient to remove other ideologies but it is completely absolutist when it comes to imposing its agenda

>> No.14956137

>>14956130
>We know what consciousness is, we just don't know how it works and it's exact origins.

>We know what a car is, we just don't know how it works and where it comes from

>> No.14956153
File: 68 KB, 680x680, 1667397914751.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14956153

>we don't understand yet how free will works
>therefore it isn't real
Nice non-argument, midwit.

>> No.14956170

>>14956133
>I am not a christian
>I just defend intrinsically christian concepts like free will and unironically link to christian websites
>>>/x/

>> No.14956180

>>14956170
Free will means a human can decide between different moral choices in order to be good or evil, not that he can determine his future

>> No.14956187

>free will exists
>y?
>because it says so in the heckin biblerino!!!!!!

>> No.14956191

>>14956180
Very paradoxical post

>> No.14956198

>>14956191
cope is a christcuck's modus operandi

>> No.14956205

Free will arguments are boring, they are so easily reduced to confusion around definitions and shown to be nothing else. I've completely stopped caring about the free will debate since a long time. For me, consciousness is where it's at, at least there's some inkling of a genuine mystery there.
>inb4 but you made a post which proves that you do care actually

>> No.14956257

>>14956180
You can decide between different moral choices under a determinist framework though?

>> No.14956261

>>14956187
>because it says so in the heckin biblerino!!!!!!
Yes. GOd said it to men who wrote it down, as opposed to you, who believes in things men took out of their own minds.

>>14956191
>Very paradoxical post
For a human perhaps. But God controls things in such a way that you will always be able to choose whether to be good or evil (e.g. to stare or not to stare at a woman walking on the street nearby, to be honest or not to be honest in business, etc.). All the rest, like how much money you will earn in the year, if you will get married and with whom, reality is arranged by God such that He determines when and how you will get those things, you cannot control anything in that process, but only try to convince God you have the merits. People generally perceive this happening as luck or coincidences, but everything was predetermined.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGTEsNWc9uo

There is a limit to human so some things that are outside our capabilities will look paradoxical, like how does a being create time before time existed to differentiate betwwen states of action in the first place? Yes it is a logical necessity that it happened, so the logic ends up contradicting itself to arrive at the truth.

>> No.14956267

>>14956106
>be patriarch of the bible
>make census
>god is mad because you can't count what you don't own
>now you have to kill a fraction of the people to appease him
You are right Anon. Everything would be better if we were ruled by the patriarchs of the bible. I rather I were put to death because our patriarch dared to count me and my family, instead of having a few crazy people existing in the current world.

>> No.14956275

>>14956261
>god said it to men who wrote it down
Source?

>> No.14956295

>>14956056
Pretty classic 'modern' humor:

>Posit a philosophical question
>Explain it's aspects poorly (on purpose?)
>Give incorrect nature and definition to the concept of 'free will', 'consciousness', portraying consciousness as a literal ghost floating over you, controling you.
>Conclude technology is simply better than humans
>End with a cringe pop culture joke to make anyone who feels uncomfortable feel better at having to think for even a moment about abstract concepts like existance, consciousness, etc.

What is's really getting at, is we humans have a conscience that dictates what we do, and it is literally the Holy Spirit of God interceding in the earth on our behalf from Christ and God, trying to guide you to virtue and peace. The whole world has gone anti-religious though, and is completely ignorant of philosophy and theology, so it isn't a surprise that they are so scared and confused as to equate conscience (a blessing from God), as a bad or negative trait.

>> No.14956297

>>14956275
>Source?
Reality. The fruits are the testimony to the tree. This is described and exemplified numerous times throughout the Bible. If describes what happens when one follows it and what happens when one does not follow it, it applies to individuals and societies.

>The law of the Lord is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is faithful, making the simple one wise.
Psalms 19:8

Even the "low IQ" can become wise by toiling in Torah
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHjJ-bVgIZg

>> No.14956298

>>14956297
except reality is deterministic you retarded christcuck

>> No.14956302

>>14956295
>on our behalf from Christ
get out of here anomist, go eat blood and give money to your show business or pardon your adulterer wife or whatever it is that christians do nowadays

>> No.14956303

>>14956297
I accept your concession

>> No.14956308

>>14956298
>except reality is deterministic
>reality is deterministic because... it just is! the scientists said so it must be true! i was programmed to say all this and I can't prove anything because reality determined it!

>> No.14956314

>>14956303
what concession? you can choose whether to follow the Torah or not

Genesis 4:6-7
>And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen?
>Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."

>> No.14956319

>>14956308
>the scientists said so
except scientists don't say so, you retarded christcuck

>> No.14956324

>>14956302
I'm Orthodox Christian so we don't subscribe to modern Christian practice at all. Our theology is based in the ancient church, not the modern American one, which isn't preaching Christianity at all, rather morally therapeutic deism. Meaning: moral therapy with this vague idea of deity attatched to it.

The irony is what I have proposed makes more logical sense than what the comic did. The comic is actually using more child like and 'made up' imagery (Sentient Robots, Ghosts with puppet strings, Twitter humor) than I am.

>> No.14956329

>>14956324
>I'm Orthodox Christian so we don't subscribe to modern Christian practice at all.
I don't care, you're still blood eaters who don't keep the 10 commandments

>Our theology is based in the ancient church
The ancient church was Judaism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian

I don't see much Judaism in orthodox christians since you (at most) keep the Sunday instead of the Shabbat

>> No.14956330

>>14956056
>biolgocial
>hardward
I agree with the point made, but fucking illiterates should have some competent nerd proofread their comics.

>> No.14956336

>>14956329
>I don't care, you're still blood eaters
Wow, was not expecting to see insults that have their root in 100-200 AD Pagan Roman culture during the Christian persecutions, impressive. I haven't been called a blood eater unironically in my entire life

>who don't keep the 10 commandments
What do you mean by that?

>I don't see much Judaism in orthodox christians
What do you mean by that?

>since you (at most) keep the Sunday instead of the Shabbat
What do you mean by that?

>> No.14956338

>>14956314
You have no source. Therefore, I win.

>> No.14956371

>>14956060
Hell is not real and can't freeze over but if it existed it would not freeze over because someone starts to believe in some theory. You sound like a religious fanatic looking for converts
Why do you want people to believe some theory, regardless of its merits?

>> No.14956382

>>14956371
Hell is not a place. It's the absence of God.

When we die, and are judged, we are judged by the condition of our soul relative to His ceaseless, perfect love. The condition of our soul in that moment is based on how we lived our lives and kept his commandments in our heart. His love burns like a fire to those who love evil and sin more than they love and desire Christ. This is where the imagery of the 'fires of hell' comes from. The fires of hell are the result of the struggle between our nature's love of evil, and his perfect, ceaseless, eternal love. From this aspect, Christ does not judge us: we judge ourseslves, and Hell is our choice, not Christ, not Gods. God creates no evil or suffering, humans do by choosing evil despite the millenia of messages He has tried to send to us.

Not trying to convert, but I will denounce false theological teaching in-season and out of season wherever it is met and wherever I detect it. Hell is most certainly real, though. Unfortunate, but it is.

>> No.14956390

>>14956382
>Hell is not a place. It's the absence of God.
No, Hell is a real place and is called ehinom in Judaism. The tortures there are extensively described by the sages of Judaism.

>God creates no evil or suffering
Christian nonsense, God creates good, God created evil too
>Isaiah 45:7

You're right in that it is for the sake of being able to choose between one and the other.

>Not trying to convert, but I will denounce false theological teaching in-season
Christianity is not only heretical, but also idolatry according to the true religion, that being Judaism. Other false religions like Islam at least still have the concept of communities and patriarchs from your own family, clans and tribes, and as such have any real strength to coutner State-level agents attempts of subversion and enslavement, whereas christians will only be destroyed over time.

>> No.14956415

>>14956382
Baruch Hashem

>> No.14956461

>>14956382
God is omnipresent, he cannot be absent
you retarded christcuck

>> No.14956465

>>14956415
Shalom

>> No.14956469

>>14956390
>false religions like Islam
why was god afraid of humans?
genesis 3:22

>> No.14956516
File: 119 KB, 965x478, creation.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14956516

>>14956469
>why was god afraid of humans?
Good question, but this comes from misinterpreting it, you need to read the Tanakh with the commentary of the sages otherwise you won't understand most of it

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8167/showrashi/true/jewish/Chapter-3.htm#lt=primary

>has become like one of us, having the ability: He is unique among the earthly beings, just as I am unique among the heavenly beings, and what is his uniqueness? To know good and evil, unlike the cattle and the beasts. — [from Targum Jonathan, Gen. Rabbah 21:5]

>and now, lest he stretch forth his hand, etc.: And if he were to live forever, he would be likely to mislead people to follow him and to say that he too is a deity (Gen. Rabbah 9:5). There are also Aggadic midrashim, but they cannot be reconciled with the simple meaning.

Pic also explains a major misconception christians have which they use to support the trinity

>> No.14956520

>>14956056
If free will doesn't exist Bells inequality is not true.

>> No.14956583

>>14956382
>hell is...le absence of god
gnashing teeth, christcuck.

>> No.14956595

>>14956091
Dont ask 2000 year old desert semites, ask basically anybody before the last 60 or so years. Every culture ever believed in free will and soul, and even now the vast vast majority of people believe it.

>> No.14956605

>>14956595
>appeal to popularity

>> No.14956609

>>14956056
>>14956060
if free will does not exist there is no such thing as consent, so there is no such thing as coercive rape. Right?

>> No.14956617

I wish there was a suicide helpline so that everyone who's replied to this thread could get the help they need to finally neck themselves. Yes, including me.

>> No.14956620

>>14956617
there is

>> No.14957473

>>14956098
>>14956060
Christians were actually one of the first to claim free will doesn't exist. Have you never heard of Calvinism?

>> No.14957478

>>14957473
>Calvinism
heresy of heresy, protestants were the first revolutionares of the world, which lead to things like progressism

>> No.14957500

>>14956516
>what is his uniqueness? To know good and evil, unlike the cattle and the beasts
His uniqueness was for us Humans have direct knowledge of Creator and a personal relationship with Him therin, not knowledge of good and evil. Our insistence to have knowledge of good and evil independently of him is how we were able to allow evil to tempt us, and thus our fall.

>In our image
Meaning the spiritual image of the reality of God (which we lost when we fell)

>our likeness
Meaning the functions of god in literal terms (what we can perceive in the physical) resemble his from afar. It's why we give God physical designations and actions despite his purely spiritual nature. we are 'like him', our functions resemble his on every level.

We were made in his image and likeness, and were once both perfectly. However, when we fell, we lost the image, but retained the likeness, and through Christ (or messiah, which Jews don't believe was Christ, but your sect of Judaism does believe in Messiah, right?) We can obtain the image again. Right now, we are just 'like' god, in that our functions resemble his from afar, but as a result of our fall they are highly fragmented and illusory. A great example of this is illustrated in book 7 of Plato's Republic in the allegory of the cave

>Socrates - GLAUCON
>And now, I said, let me show in a figure how far our nature is enlightened or unenlightened: --Behold! human beings living in a underground den...
http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.8.vii.html

etc.
Creation is pretty easy to understand when you can grasp the concept of trinity, which is already presented to us both in genesis 2 "Spirit of God" aka holy spirit which intercedes directly with physical creation, and any instance in which God is denoted as "Lord" is reference to the 'Word' of God, aka Christ.

>> No.14957507

>>14957478
>protestants were the first revolutionares of the world, which lead to things like progressism
and strangely enough now it is the Catholic Church that is "progressive" and communist, while protestants are old-school conservative and based. Strange times.

>> No.14957511

>>14956064
free will doesn't exist for you, and I absolutely know it doesn't exist for you, because you are a human (or a robot created by a human), and humans do not have free will, so they could not grant it to something they could create, as they wouldn't know what it is that the robot is supposedly supposed to have to give the robot free will.

Ironically, humans have already created AI which is indiscernible from human expression. The only thing missing is a gelatenous warm skin body with limbs and vocal cords. It begs the question of what the ultimate point of robots is supposed to be, when so many inferences from it's progression can be identified analagously or identically to current human existence.

Just a retarded continuum series of lazy fucking robots trying to make other robots to serve them which could only ever be just as lazy as retarded.

Just rape a woman and cum in her pussy. You will create free robots in 9 months.
Just find a woman and pretend she is already the futuristic robot waifu who looks real. women love being treated like objects cause they're fucking weird and different so it's win/win anyway.

>> No.14957512

>>14957500
>>14956516
I was raised Orthodox Jew so I have some sympathy for your misunderstanding, because the Jewish community in America is extremely insular and aggresive to people who leave the faith: I leave, and my family will kick me out of the house, and the whole community I grew up in will ostrasize me forever? I'll lose all money and support? It is understandble to pay the faith lip service than experience that.

However, I highly reccomend reading the new testament seriously, and with readings, homilies and commentary from the Church Fathers in hand if you want to give Orthodox Christianity a legitimate chance to be understood.

>> No.14957539

>>14957500
>His uniqueness was for us Humans have direct knowledge of Creator and a personal relationship with Him therin, not knowledge of good and evil. Our insistence to have knowledge of good and evil independently of him is how we were able to allow evil to tempt us, and thus our fall.
I was quoting Rashi jew bro

>> No.14957540

>>14956583
Correct. So?

>> No.14957543

>>14957507
Lol wtf are you on about protestents are a wide range due to their definition. For every one ultraconservative protestent there are probably 10 libtard evangelists. Meanwhile the catholic church is consistently traditional

>> No.14957547

>>14956461
"Presence" has different meanings, predditor.

https://www.gotquestions.org/God-in-hell.html

>> No.14957561

>>14957512
>However, I highly reccomend reading the new testament seriously, and with readings, homilies and commentary from the Church Fathers in hand if you want to give Orthodox Christianity a legitimate chance to be understood.
I know catholics from first hand but they don't have what it takes to survive the coming of the Messiah (or the time before it, with the antichrist as a christian would say) neither the romans nor the orthodox catholics. I don't see catholics focusing on communities and order, Judasim has a much better chance in that regard. The next generations will be completely corrupted outside of communities, marriage would be practically impossible, children even less.

>> No.14957566

>>14957543
>Meanwhile the catholic church is consistently traditional
Not the romans at least
https://cruxnow.com/vatican/2022/07/pope-to-european-youth-make-less-war-eat-less-meat
https://www.osvnews.com/2022/07/18/pope-asks-signis-to-combat-toxic-media-filled-with-hate-fake-news/

>> No.14957611

>>14957473
> Calvinism. John Calvin ascribed "free will" to all people in the sense that they act "voluntarily, and not by compulsion." He elaborated his position by allowing "that man has choice and that it is self-determined" and that his actions stem from "his own voluntary choosing."
are you retarded
claiming that free will doesnt exist would basically be affirming theodicy

>> No.14957615

>>14957543
>10 libtard evangelists.
whut? that would be a Dr. Seuss like creature.

>> No.14957620

>>14957611
be denying theodicy*
calvanists only believed that special people were chosen to be """saved""" but that everyone had free will regardless while they were living to make their own decisions

>> No.14957642

>>14957561
Well most Orthodox Christians will tell the you "messiah" jews will accept will actually be the anti-christ. It's worth noting also, that there have been no Prophets of the Jews since John the Baptist (Since Christ was very clear that he was NOT a prophet, but the Messiah), who was teh first to announce Christ was "Messiah", but I can testify from my own experience as an Orthodox Jew, and in a few instance where I cross examined the New Testament with my Rabbi, 'willful ignorance' is something my 'seed' are very good at.

>Orthodox Catholics
There is no such thing

>I don't see catholics focusing on communities and order
Really? I do. They're extremely communal and orderly.

>Judasim has a much better chance in that regard
Chance for what, exactly? Surviving the apacolypse? When that happens, the world as we know it will desolve around us and we will see everyone as they triuly are and have been. There will be no 'surviving' anything. by that time, it will be too late.

Or the initial descent of Messiah into Earth? That's already happened, you'd be stupid to deny it, but then again so did the pharisees of Christs time, when he was standing right before them, and fulfilling Old Testament prophecy of the Messiah again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again. Actually, stupid is the perfect word to describe the pharisee's, since they claimed to have perfect Old Testament knowledge and understanding, yet they could not perceive the reality that it was being fulfilled before their very eyes.

I get the impression you are a young jew, who is not fully understanding his faith and theology correctly yet. I also get the impression that you have teachers who are not guiding you along the path of knowledge properly, which also happened to me in my early Jewish education. I will pray for you.

>> No.14957664

>>14957642
>Really? I do. They're extremely communal and orderly.
By communities I mean communities like what Pastor Dowell has, self-sufficient stuff that allows the people to not be succumb to be marked with vaccines or whatever it is the government tries to do

>Chance for what, exactly? Surviving the apacolypse?
No, the time before that, "the times of the Moschiah". Where there will only be 2 kinds of people: complete degenerates and saints.

>Or the initial descent of Messiah into Earth? That's already happened, you'd be stupid to deny it
Did it really, though? How much of the new testament is fabricated? How much of it really happened? Did Jesus fulfill all the prophecies? What if the rabbis are right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_and_the_woman_taken_in_adultery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

>but then again so did the pharisees of Christs time
Not all of them though, and Jesus instructed people to keep following Judaism by obeying the pharisees, which is something would do much good to christians, who basically live like anomists nowadays
>Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

>and fulfilling Old Testament prophecy of the Messiah again
Why weren't the 12 tribes reunited yet then? That's a big one that doesn't allow me to believe

>they claimed to have perfect Old Testament knowledge and understanding
You really can't if you can't if you don't practice it, which according to Jesus was the case for some of the pharisees.

>> No.14957668

>>14957642
>I get the impression you are a young jew, who is not fully understanding his faith and theology correctly yet. I also get the impression that you have teachers who are not guiding you along the path of knowledge properly, which also happened to me in my early Jewish education. I will pray for you.
As far as I know jews can't even read the new testament, it's a mitzvah to burn it, so no i'm not a jew.

Yet, I have learned what faith is from rabbis. Never before I have seen any faith or respect for the Torah from christians. If you asked me to tell the difference between an atheist, a satanists and a christian, I would say the christian is closer to the satanist and the atheist is usually a more decent person.

>> No.14957826

>>14957473
Non-christians denied the existence of free will by not even acknowledging the concept.

>> No.14957917

>>14956382
Hell is not the absence of God.
Hell is the least expected thing, subjectively.
Everyone is different, and Hell is goofy enough that it can perfectly accommodate any specific person of knowledge to be the uttermost worst of anything they uniquely and individually could hope to expect.

>> No.14957967

>>14956064
>3- If libertarian free will does not exist, rationality and knowledge do not exist.
This does not follow at all, rationality and knowledge don't exist because of free will, they exist because of pattern recognition and the underlying repeating patterns that are available to be recognized.

>> No.14957975

>>14956067
Computation can easily be replicated though, that wiki link you listed doesn't even mention computational theory as being afflicted by the replication crisis, it mainly mentions soft sciences that are lacking in objective computation and heavy on subjective observation.

>> No.14957984

>>14956595
Yea and most people from the last 60 years used to believe in santa clause too, doesn't make it true, just makes it a compelling idea to a naive person.

>> No.14957988

>>14956106
>how the fuck would desert semites know anything about naval architecture?
Because there was not much to do in the pre-industrial desert beside read about a bunch of random topics like naval architecture and write long schizo poems that integrate them all.

>> No.14957992

>>14956108
So why don't you just will yourself into a dimension where those people don't bother you?
Because your will is not actually entirely free given it is very obviously bound by a large collection of circumstances even if there are many degrees of freedom without those boundaries.

You don't have free will, you have limited choice.

>> No.14958000

>>14956130
>And you can even modify personality using behavioral psychology.
Ok so how long will it take to behave exactly like a bottlenose dolphin and be able to stay in the sea forever and swim underwater holding your breath for 20 minutes at a time or are you saying you can only actually behave like a human no matter what?

>> No.14958009

>>14956180
So there is no actual freedom in determining morality, good and evil are set in stone even if you don't know the right answer no matter your will or knowledge, you have no freedom in determining right from wrong, but you totally have complete free will?

>> No.14958017

>>14956205
Right, because there is no confusion or vagueness around the definition of consciousness.

>> No.14958022
File: 625 KB, 1036x2498, Determinism.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14958022

/sci/ isnt smart enough to understand pic rel but I will post it anyway

>> No.14958029

>>14956261
So when a newborn is born with leukemia it is because they actively chose to make the pregnancy slightly uncomfortable for their mother and god is punishing them for being an evil baby?

>> No.14958036

>>14956180
free will has no rational definition because it explicitly cannot be proven to exist.

whether or not one does something good or evil is entirely dependent on a variety of factors, the least of which includes subjectivity from an individual of judgement, and even withstanding that set of judgement, such a good or evil act was absolutely predetermined to occur - which is why free will is not a very meaningful phrase. Free will would be going to a public movie theatre and everyone in the theatre individually watching a version of the film while staring at the same screen in which the story developed per their own choice or expectations. after the film, everyone has a different experience and contextually "watched a different film" even though they shared the theater and the single screen. The suggestion with this example is that lifetimes are predetermined with absolutely known pasts and futures, just as much as a you going to a theater to see a brand new release movie which you haven't seen before, is in fact already predetermined how the movie is going to play out on the film reel. Whether you know the ending of the film or not does not change the fact the ending of the film is known, and therein also exists an easy accommodation for acceptance of alternative or higher planes of existence, the least of which should be the interpretation of the existence of Heaven or God, in which knowledge and methods seemingly not here in our earthly realm does not necessarily mean such knowledge and methods do not exist at all.

so, free will would be changing the movie while watching it for the first time rather than accepting the fact that the movie was recorded, edited, and completed from the beginning of the story to the end of the story, likely at least a year prior to your viewing of it.

>> No.14958038

>>14956295
>we humans have a conscience that dictates what we do
Then why doesn't every single human conscience work in the same way to the same end, why do some people think it is perfectly fine to hunt animals for sport and others think it is appalling to even swat a fly, why do some cultures eat dogs and others have large prison sentences just for being mean to dogs? If the conscience was divine wouldn't everyone's conscience come to the exact same conclusion regardless of upbringing or culture?

>> No.14958040

>>14956308
Then detach your head from your body if decapitated doesn't necessarily determine your death because you aren't biologically programmed in some form or another.

>> No.14958041

Question. If an omniscient god exist then how can we have free will?

>> No.14958048

>>14956382
So if I intentionally create and knowingly proliferate a machine for the express purpose of creating evil, I am not at all responsible for creating evil, it is all the mindless machine's fault?

>> No.14958050

>>14958036
a similar concept to a different interpretation of free will than prescribed here would be "the illusion of choice", in which a choice is presented, perhaps with dilemma, and one option is picked over the other, carrying forward with it the consequences of such an option picked.
The truth is, the choice itself was predetermined, the dilemma was predetermined, and the eventual pick of an option was predetermined - there was no alternate reality in which you picked differently.
An alternate reality would fundamentally need to be an entirely alternate universe, and in a scenario of multiple universes or parallel universes, invokes a necessity that each universe is self contained and does not interact with other universes, and the ultimate self defeatism of an acceptance that there exist countably many more ideal versions of yourself of which you in this universe are likely among the least ideal if not the sole least ideal, lest to sorely believe in such parallelism that even your alternative universe selves are just as shit and hopeless at everything as you are, wishing for this and that and the other which are never delivered, effectively compounding your sorrows ad infinitum.

>>14958041
God is better rationalized as a soulless library of information rather than an intelligent being of personification and preferences. In essence, God is "everything", as parts of everything are everywhere, and everywhen. Omnipresent, omniscient.
God as a personified entity being true, also knowing omnipresence and omniscience, combined with free will also being true, instead suggests a notion of the behavior of such a God's own unwillingness to accept their own instructions or behaviors leading to events to pass as they had. To levy judgement and reward per specifics of good and evil through a system of choice in which such an entity God does not want to accept the truth that their own will incurred any specific thing to occur, for such a god would be guilty of any evils

>> No.14958053

>>14956520
You only need to apply the axiom of choice in that case, you don't need complete free will.

>> No.14958056

>>14956609
Consent exists with the axiom of choice and the existence of pain/loss, you don't need complete free will to choose between two outcomes or to desire the optimal result, in fact the existence of unavoidable pain or loss of time proves that your will is not free enough to force a constant state of pleasure without pain, displeasure, or loss of time.

>> No.14958063

>>14957500
>Our insistence to have knowledge of good and evil independently of him is how we were able to allow evil to tempt us, and thus our fall.
No, the fact that god regularly left them alone to their own devices without giving them direct knowledge of good and evil without god in the first place is what allowed him to be easily tricked, its like giving a kid a fork, leaving them alone in the kitchen all day and being surprised when you come back and find out they jammed that fork into a power outlet.

>> No.14958065

>>14957511
You clearly don't have free will either because a pompous obnoxious jerk like you would have willed yourself to being god a long time ago, so instead of being a god you cope with bad arguments about robots on the internet.

>> No.14958072

>>14957642
>Or the initial descent of Messiah into Earth? That's already happened
Sure, he just conveniently forgot to mention that he would be gone for thousands of years before returning and he only hinted that he would return in his apostles lifetimes as an elaborate prank on doubting thomas.

>> No.14958086

>>14958022
Do you assume other people aren't smart just because you kept admitting your work isn't very rigorous, you don't understand the ideas and need further elaboration, and you aren't sure about all the paradoxes in your own ideas while you got schooled by some low level research and accidentally exposed your bodhi.karma98 gmail address to 4chan?

>> No.14958090

>>14958065
Read this and that and wonder if or what may be up or down.

chills

>> No.14958091

>>14958036
It isn't defined because free will is two words not one, you have to extrapolate and use context to understand what it means for a will to be free.

>Free will would be going to a public movie theatre and everyone in the theatre individually watching a version of the film while staring at the same screen
No that already happens and it is not because of free will, it is because of individual perspective.

> Whether you know the ending of the film or not does not change the fact the ending of the film is known
Not really, for every end scene, there are often dozens of review videos that pop up and interpret the ending and the lessons learned differently from each other.

>free will would be changing the movie while watching it for the first time rather than accepting the fact that the movie was recorded, edited, and completed from the beginning of the story to the end of the story, likely at least a year prior to your viewing of it.
Yet you can still come along and genuinely believe that the last two episodes of breaking bad were all a fever dream even if the creators didn't intend for that to be your interpretation when they made it years ago.

>> No.14958204

>>14958086
>accidentally
as I said, the people on this board are idiots

>> No.14958216

>>14958204
Agreed, anyone who would share their email address with 4chan, accidentally or otherwise, is definitely an idiot.

>> No.14958380

>>14958017
Yes there is, but at least with consciousness I get the idea that underneath the vagueness and lack of definition and unadmitted christianity/cartesianism there's actually still an interesting problem. With free will I just get the impression that as you start to untangle the vagueness you're left with a bunch of contradictory and/or powerless definitions that it makes no sense to care about.

>> No.14958405

>>14958380
>an interesting problem.
The vagueness is the problem, your interest is a mirage caused by that vagueness like how pretty much anyone can see any horoscope applying to themselves.

>> No.14958414

>>14958041
You can know what someone will do without forcing them to do it. Me knowing you'll eat a pizza didn't force you to eat the pizza, I just had foreknowledge of that action. You still chose it of your own volition even if I knew it.

Being present at all times at once, God naturally knows what you'll do because he sees the universe from a different perspective. That doesn't make the universe deterministic (from an inside perspective) because we operate on our own will without knowing the future, and someone else knowing it has no bearing on our choices.

>> No.14958428

i WILL take a shit in the street, i WILL shit all over this thread, because i WILL it so

refute this

pro tip: you can't

>> No.14958434

>>14958428
>because I was predetermined to do it

>> No.14958439

>>14958216
I have no idea what kind of pedo shit you are doing with your alt email accounts but I dont do it so I dont share your paranoia about an email account I rarely use and damn sure dont use for anything "professional." You are a grade A spastic retard

>> No.14958451

>>14958434
you determinists are so cute, why don't you slit both of your wrists so you can observe the power of your own will?

>> No.14958452

>>14958428
typical freetard monkey

>> No.14958454

>>14958439
cope and seethe spam master

>> No.14958455

>>14958452
typical determinist troglodyte

>> No.14958456

>>14958451
>k-kill urself!
freetards are so cute

>> No.14958462

>>14958456
> missed it
you're cute, do you have your parent's permission to be on this board?

>> No.14958478

>>14958022
Join a church already, why this need to have elaborate theological arguments under the guise of science?

>> No.14958518

>>14958451
>why don't you slit both of your wrists so you can observe the power of predetermination

>> No.14958538

>>14958454
projecting your coping and seething like a tranny, pathetic

>> No.14958540

>>14958478
it is science, you are just too stupid to understand it, dont comment on things you are too stupid to understand. Problem solved

>> No.14958546

>>14958540
>>If there is no free will, then liberation does not depend on yourself (your choices), but is, rather, pre-determined, which puts the religious doctrine in contradiction with itself.
If "but this puts the religious doctrine in contradiction with itself" is accepted by both conversants as a valid argument, you are doing theology, not science.

>> No.14958613

>>14958518
you have such a strong will to shitpost, that's good anon

>> No.14958615

>>14958053
>You only need to apply the axiom of choice in that case, you don't need complete free will.
weasel words.

>> No.14959426

>>14958091
I'm not referring to interpretation.
You're referring to a different concept entirely. Interpretation is not free will.

>> No.14959439

>>14958036
>free will has no rational definition because it explicitly cannot be proven to exist.
It can be proven a priori
>>14956064
>the 5th argument already puts this question to the grave
>https://crossexamined.org/5-arguments-existence-free-will/

The fact that you argue in itself shows you act like you believe in free will even if you say otherwise

>> No.14959444

>>14958041
>Question. If an omniscient god exist then how can we have free will?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGTEsNWc9uo

>> No.14959627

>>14956133
>And yes, i do not like humanism, it is a dishonest and evil ideology that uses relativism when it's convinient to remove other ideologies but it is completely absolutist when it comes to imposing its agenda
checked and based. This is exactly what ive been saying about so called secular humanists. Theyre just hypocritical ideologues like the ones they criticise.
>noooo my subjective take on morality is the right one we finally figured it out this time so im justified on forcing it on everyone else!!
fuck off

>> No.14959628

>>14958414
>You can know what someone will do without forcing them to do it. Me knowing you'll eat a pizza didn't force you to eat the pizza, I just had foreknowledge of that action.
I never implied that God forces anyone to do anything. I just don't understand how we can say that we have free will If God already knows what you're fated to do.

>> No.14959678

>>14958204
You're the middle aged drug addict who thinks that sacred geometry means the future is already known.

>> No.14959828

>>14956056
>humans can't change their source code
imagine being this retarded, imagining not having read Hegel

>> No.14960050

>>14959439
You are predetermined to agree with the strongest argument presented to you.

>> No.14960063

>>14959444
Why are christcucks so lazy.'? Type the shit out, lazy cunt.

>> No.14960099

>>14956091
>This must be a lie since someone who was joosish was involved.
>No I don't need an actual argument, or add anything to this discussion. because kikes, any disagreement with me is just jewish lies and brainwashing.
Kek

>> No.14960112

>>14956060
Yes yes that's very nice, but why am I experiencing it?

>> No.14960120

>>14959628
So god has consciousness?

>> No.14960219

>>14960112
Low iq.

>> No.14960232

>>14956056
this comic is retarded

>> No.14960240

>>14958538
Coping and seething about what?
He is not the one that was too dumb to remove his email address.

>> No.14960269

>>14959678
>you are the retard that thinks because you have a map you can know where the streets go
this is fucking stupid you are, stfu imbecile. you are hands down the stupidest fucking retard on this board. everything you post is brain melting retarded. you were born a loser and will die a loser

>> No.14960271

>>14960240
I am flattered you hold a burner email address I use in such high esteem you must really want to sex me. cope, seethe and dilate tranny.

>> No.14960275
File: 74 KB, 697x695, 1663753079052.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
14960275

>>14960219
>IQ

>> No.14960280

>>14960271
No esteem, its just a dumb thing to do and its clearly not on a burner email service like temp-mail no matter how much you try to use that as your cope.

>> No.14960431

>>14960120
Abrahamic God seems to have one

>> No.14960491

>>14960280
literal autism, you are a sad little man. have sex

>> No.14960511

>>14960491
No thanks, whore, go peddle your services and reference the only thing that gives you value somewhere else.

>> No.14962300

>>14956056
I’d like to think that this is bait, but if it’s not - your brain is much more sophisticated than any computer on earth. The difference between your brain and a computer is that you can physically rearrange your brain by intentionally changing your thought patterns. You can change your firm. You can change your operating system

inb4: the incels and losers that deny that this is possible

>> No.14962303

>>14956060
and do what work it bro? Stop holding people accountable for their actions because they were “a victim of the universe” ?

>> No.14963677

>>14962303
You can hold someone accountable, even if their actions were inevitable. It's called deterrence.
Deterrence for them to repeat the undesirable action and deterrence for others to not perform undesirable actions.
It's probably more efficient than our current system of focusing on punishment instead of rehabilitation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MauMiCL7G9Y