/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.14837701]

Is there a scientific, objective argument against suicide?
I have a scientific argument in favor of suicide.
Statistically speaking, it's impossible for all humans to achieve happiness. Therefore, those who know they won't ever be happy should be given the option to end their suffering through a peaceful method. Prolonging the suffering of someone and forcing them to live with their pain for several decades despite being aware that they will never be happy is insanely illogical.
When someone is aware that they will never be as intelligent/attractive/successful as other people, they should be able to drop out of the genetic pool as soon as possible. This way, the ones that remain become stronger, while the less talented ones disappear.
Why live, if you know you will never get good grades in university?
Why are dogs allowed to die peacefully when they are ill, but humans aren't? We are animals just like dogs.
Don't bring morality in this discussion. Only scientific, objective arguments please.

[Anonymous No.14837710]

Science does not have arguments either for or against anything. Science can tell you what something is, how can it be classified, how it works in relation to other things, and what it can or cannot do.
On the other hand, anything related to what must be done or what is preferrable is a matter of practical judgement, and can't really be separated from opinions.

[Anonymous No.14837718]

Didn’t read but perhaps:

If your life doesn’t hold any meaning outside goofy esoteric beliefs, or legitimate ones, then why not endure as much pain as possible, dying by external circumstances? Joy and pain are equivalent at the material point, unless… you believe something matters? Personally I think you have a choice and should be able to end it. Chronic pain is a valid cause but if you don’t believe in god or God or something beyond here, killing yourself is silly when you have eternal slumber ahead of you - at least - what is currently assembled as you.

[Anonymous No.14837774]

>>14837701
Scientifically speaking, you can't verify that the second that just past is the same in "length" as the second that you are expericencing now or will perceive.

You can't set up an experiment to prove the existence of time, nor a simulation (since the code will depend on a clock). How can we verify that every "interval of time" has the same length?

And yet a lot of Physics depends on taking time derivatives (though we have time invariant forms).

Science is a method that can't even verify the foundation of Physics but it somehow works.

Also what you call "marvels of science" are nothing more than the marvels of precision engineering. In truth we are all the same. Old tools are used to expand already existing tools. But when we see it for what it is it is all the same.

Now suicide? Science can't say shit because it is a moral argument. Your hypothesis is flawed from the start.

[Anonymous No.14837801]

>>14837701
>it's impossible for all humans to achieve happiness.
Perhaps if you are looking for movie happiness

[Anonymous No.14838346]

>>14837801
what

[Anonymous No.14838528]

>>14838346
>When someone is aware that they will never be as intelligent/attractive/successful as other people
Movie happiness, bigger car than your neighbour

[Anonymous No.14838542]

>>14837701
how to make sure everybody is above average

[Sage No.14838857]

>>14837701
>you will never get good grades in university?
And how do you know that you'll NEVER get good grades no matter how hard you try? Chances are you flunked a course and are now all sad like some teen instead bouncing back and actually doing something about it, Even then your happiness shouldn't be tied to a number on a paper.
>scientific argument
this reeks of midwit, science has nothing to do with matters like this

[Anonymous No.14838876]

>>14837701
Biology will tell you the only objective goal for life is to survive, multiply, and spread. Suicide is an option, of course, but it runs against that core instinct, hence the difficulty involved. There's not a lot of meaning built into life, most of it you either have to borrow or make for yourself, so you might as well hold fast to that one bit of meaning you're born with, and live.

Historically, you can never tell when someone most would consider a human failure is going to suddenly be the source of some massive change or discovery, either directly or indirectly. Even just discovering exactly what is wrong with you could be civilization changing. The load you're putting onto humanity as a failure is negligible, but the potential is all but limitless, so you may as well hang on.

It's less that there's no objective scientific argument against suicide, and more that there's no objective scientific argument for it.

>Statistically speaking, it's impossible for all humans to achieve happiness.
It's perfectly possible, with the right combination of cyclical chemical drips, but happiness is not the only goal for a specie's survival.

[Anonymous No.14839873]

this is hostile
metaphysics boards are /his/ and /lit/
philosophy and metaphysics are hostile to science

[Anonymous No.14839898]

>>14839873
If your beliefs are threatened by deeper reflection, your beliefs are pseudoscience.

[Anonymous No.14840112]

>>14838857
>Even then your happiness shouldn't be tied to a number on a paper.
What else is there to be happy about?

[Anonymous No.14840130]

Suicide doesn’t matter, no one really cares. Yes your parents would be sad in the moment, but time passes, two three four years down the line and you’re just nothing, another star snuffed out in a night sky that’s as bright and dazzling with or without it.

You and i don’t matter, no one cares, so why commit suicide? Or why not? No one cares whichever way you choose, so do what you want, stop moralizing your internal decision making.

And stop putting /his/ stuff on /sci/

[Anonymous No.14840132]

>>14840112
Nothing. Antinatalism for should be mandatory for the bugminded.

[Anonymous No.14840138]

>>14837701
There's a good chance you'll just get reincarnated if you kys

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Uz6anwm47g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUl-ek3P-08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNhpk-kFLT4

[Anonymous No.14840192]

Why do people insist on trying to find moral guidance from science?
Science is about trying to understand how nature works and what is and isn't true, not about what is right or wrong.
Morality is arbitrary, so it will depend on what you believe.

[Anonymous No.14840195]

>>14837701
its not impossible for humans to achieve happiness, you can achieve perfect happiness, just take the finders course and stop at location 4. Or use break through pain and break through difficult emotions by shinzen young and do strong determination sitting to train happiness independent of conditions.

[Anonymous No.14840319]

>>14837701
>Statistically speaking, it's impossible for all humans to achieve happiness.
Given that there are all sorts of reasons for people to find happiness or meaning, and that these reasons change over time, this is a rather weak argument.

>When someone is aware that they will never be as intelligent/attractive/successful as other people, they should be able to drop out of the genetic pool as soon as possible.
In the vast majority of cases it is impossible to say if this perceived inferiority is actually the case or not, and more importantly if it's permanent or not, and it depends on the chosen reference point.

>This way, the ones that remain become stronger, while the less talented ones disappear.
You're argument sounds concerningly pro-eugenics. You forget how much of success and talent and ability today comes down to the enviroment you were born, raised and educated in. A roll of the dice determines how successful you are. Imagine you were trying to end poverty by killing poor people. Do you think, in todays exploitative society where the rich depend on the poor for their existence, this would be a permanent solution to poverty? The suggestion you provided is not too different.

>Why live, if you know you will never get good grades in university?
How do you know you won't have something happen to you that turns your life around? Are good grades in university the only reason you should be alive?

>Why are dogs allowed to die peacefully when they are ill, but humans aren't?
Humans are and should be allowed to end their life peacefully when they chose to do so. Is this an argument in favor of suicide? Not really. It's an argument in favor of autonomy over your body. Much like an argument in favor of the right to self harm isn't arguing that you should harm yourself, it is in favor of holding the possibility open, if one desires to do so.

There are legitimate reasons for assisted suicide and the right to kill yourself. But don't pick shallow reasons.

[Anonymous No.14840407]

>>14840319
>How do you know you won't have something happen to you that turns your life around?
How do you know I will?
Are good grades in university the only reason you should be alive?
Yes

[Anonymous No.14840414]

>>14840319
>You're argument sounds concerningly pro-eugenics.
>>>/r/socialjustice

[Anonymous No.14840477]

>>14840407
>How do you know I will?
I do in fact not know. But the chance is there, and the only way to guarantee not reaching it is giving up.

>Are good grades in university the only reason you should be alive?
>Yes
Well I'm very sorry for you then. But consider that basing your meaning of life on a - in the grand scheme of things - quite meaningless metric will likely cause you a lot of pain.

>>14840414
You really didn't need to attach a picture of yourself.

[Anonymous No.14840528]

>>14840477
>You really didn't need to attach a picture of yourself.
Go back.

[Anonymous No.14840596]

>>14837701
I am a scientist:
No. In order for something to be scientific it has to be falsifiable. You can't step out of time and test killing yourself and not killing yourself and decide if it's right or wrong. You can't prove that someone will never be happy; you can't prove that living is worth it either. These questions are not scientific, but ethical philosophy.

Scientifically speaking, the human brain is a more complex structure than galaxies and planetary geosystems. We are some of the craziest matter in the universe. We are the eyes of the world yeto one will ever truly understand your perspective. The only thing more complex than a human mind is the social communication between minds.

In conclusion, society and communication are complex and by nature a strenuous balance to maintain. On a non-scientific note of personal interpretation, whatever f***** up s*** happened to you, whatever regrets you have about your life, whatever fears you have about what's to come, you have permission not to be perfect.

[Anonymous No.14840610]

>>14838876
We'll said

[Anonymous No.14840954]

>>14840477
>basing your meaning of life on a - in the grand scheme of things - quite meaningless metric will likely cause you a lot of pain
So what should I base my meaning of life on, then?

[Anonymous No.14841027]

>>14837718
this pretty much
youre already gonna die out, its like joining a game of poker seeing youve been dealt a shit hand and exiting the game instead of playing it out the best you can

[Anonymous No.14841643]

>>14840954
>>14840954

[Anonymous No.14842455]

>>14837701
Look into the hedonic treadmill. Basically external circumstances like riches or grades do not affect happiness after the initial bump. For example, lottery winners have a large spike in happiness for a certain amount of time then fall back to their baseline, and on the opposite end of the spectrum crash victims and cripples have a large fall then return to baseline. So all your external circumstances have only a temporary effect and are not reasons for suicide.

[Anonymous No.14842464]

>>14842455
>Basically external circumstances like riches or grades do not affect happiness after the initial bump
>all your external circumstances have only a temporary effect and are not reasons for suicide.
Total nonsequitur. It's true that the so-called "quality of life" improvement of modernity don't affect happiness positively, but that doesn't mean the external circumstances this subhuman slave system imposes on everyone doesn't affect them negatively.

[Anonymous No.14842489]

>>14842464
The hedonic treadmill applies to both positive and negative events. What do you object to about the current system?

[Anonymous No.14842496]

>>14837701
Your purpose is to reproduce not achieve happiness, nature doesn’t care about your happiness faggot

[Anonymous No.14842502]

>>14842489
>The hedonic treadmill applies to both positive and negative events
Sorry, Mr. (((Harari))), but we already know this to be false.

[Anonymous No.14842530]

>>14837701
Earlier today i was wondering about the force of attraction between two flat surfaces with some lubricant layer. I searched for some formulas to describe it.
Papers and forums talked about Van der walls forces and wetting angles and the effect of surface roughness. Not one website measured Force vs surface area.
Not anyone measured, much less calculated, the actual force as a function of the surface area. Theres no reason to assume its proportional to the area,or to the perimeter, or god knows what else.
Like a fucking table with newtons vs square cm so you can fit a curve.
Dumbshits shitheads just HAVE to EXPLAIN and talk about MOLECULES.
"Oh its the molecules feeling the hydrogen bridges so they arrange-Zhang et al".
Pieces of shit.

[Anonymous No.14843581]

>>14837701
>Is there a scientific, objective argument against suicide?
every human has a sense of self preservation and suicide goes against that. It's obvious that this sense evolved for a reason and this anon explains that reason:>>14838876

[Anonymous No.14843732]

>>14837701
Energy has the force of being. When your body dies your energy comes out as heat, but each piece still has some of your trajectories. You will just reassemble somehow else. If you do not make this life good, the future will be a worse reincarnation.

[Anonymous No.14843761]

>>14837701
I think anyone should leave this existence if they want to, and be helped to do so. Should life not be voluntary?

So this is not an argument saying suicide is bad or wrong or should never be done, but more so to show why it may not be the most rational thing from the ultimate metaperspective. To appreciate it, I recommend reading about NDEs.

Of course, nothing gets normies and NPCs more uncomfortable and/or riled up than the idea that near-death experiences are ACTUALLY real, and that there is good reason to think that they are and that we should take them seriously.

Here is an extremely persuasive argument for why near-death experiences (NDEs) are real:

https://youtu.be/U00ibBGZp7o

It makes a huge deal about the fact that near-death experiencers (NDErs) are representative of the population as a whole, and that when people go deep into the NDE, they all become convinced. As this article points out:

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/mysteries-consciousness/202204/does-afterlife-obviously-exist

>"Statistics collected ... show that the "deeper" the NDE ... the greater the percentage of those who come away certain of the existence of the afterlife. Among those with the deepest experiences ... 100 percent came away agreeing with the statement, "An afterlife definitely exists"."

Since NDErs are representative of the population as a whole, and they are all convinced, then 100% of the population become convinced that there is an afterlife when they have a sufficiently deep NDE themselves. And so would you, me, or anyone, including the most dogmatic atheists and skeptics, because it is VASTLY more self-evidently real than this puny little experience of life on Earth we have now. When you dream and wake up, you immediately realize that life is more real than your dream. When you have an NDE, the same thing is happening, but on a higher level, as you immediately realize that life is the deep, deep dream and the NDE world is the real world.

[Anonymous No.14843763]

>>14837701
>>14843761
Of course, death will be the same thing whether we die of cancer at 91 or of suicide at 25. So the only question that matters is, "Do I want to live these years?"

And when you study NDEs, it becomes even more obvious that the answer might actually be, "Yes!" Read near-death experience (NDE) accounts and basically all you can about NDEs. Books, YouTube-videos, articles, everything. They will make you realize that there is an afterlife, that there is meaning to life, and that near-death experiencers (NDErs) say that the primary purpose here is to learn to love everyone and everything, no matter what. That it does not matter so much what kind of things we do, but whether we do them with no strings attached, and summon that kindness, love, and compassion on the inside of our own minds as we do it. So the meaning of life then, according to NDErs, is the small things. Whether it is helping someone with their homework, cooking dinner for our family, cleaning the bathroom, or picking up trash from the ground. Whatever it is, if we do it with love, then that is so huge on the other side, it is amazingly huge. So life is like a game where the goal is to summon as much kindness, love, compassion, and generosity as we possibly can squeeze out of our intentions. Which admittedly is definitely easier said than done!

You are playing life on a higher difficulty anon. We are here to learn to shine with love and kindness _in a world where it is undeniably hard to do so_! So are you up for the challenge? You can do it anon. Show us you can do it.

So sure, suicide shoots you directly to heaven and infinite bliss. But at the same time, you were there when choosing to come here. Suicide is therefore like turning off the Silent Hill video game and going out in the sun and playing with your friends. Which is totally fine! But it's not beating and 100%-ing the game, which is to live until death takes you, and being kind and loving all the time along the way.

[Anonymous No.14843770]

>>14843581
85 IQ take.

[Anonymous No.14843771]

>>14837701
>>14843761
>>14843763
So choosing to come here is like choosing to go to Harvard. It is not easy, and you have to be somebody to even get to come here. As NDErs say, everybody on Earth is a star on the other side for having the courage and endurance to come to this nightmare hellhole. One NDEr for instance observed that he had literally lived an innummerable amount of lives all over the multiverse and that our higher self in the NDE world is not only eternal in structure, but also actually already ancient.

[Anonymous No.14843796]

>>14843770
>85 IQ take.
I never cared to check where I scored on that pattern recognition meme so I wouldn't know.

[Anonymous No.14843810]

>>14843796
You score about the same as a literal nigger. You're welcome.

[Anonymous No.14843813]

>>14843810
>You score about the same as a literal nigger. You're welcome.
Okay.

[Anonymous No.14843988]

>>14840112
Your overall happiness shouldn't be contingent on anything, just simply appreciate that you're here and are yourself
Regarding minor happiness that comes from a hobby, family, career, volunteering, philanthropy etc but you already knew this and just want to be le sad even though when this wave of depression passes you'll be content with life as if nothing happened like some sheep

[Anonymous No.14844283]

>>14837701
>Is there a scientific, objective argument against suicide?
Not really. My once favorite sister destroyed herself, and however she did it, I've never known the agony she felt in the moment. There is no escape from subjectivity of the sort, no matter what reason asserts.

[Anonymous No.14844287]

>>14844283
>once favorite
How many sisters do you have?

[Anonymous No.14844308]

>>14844287
Four.

[Anonymous No.14844320]

>>14844308
My condolences

[Anonymous No.14844335]

>>14844320
i try not to think about it too much, except for her better hours. Together we learned the constellations using H.A. Reys's The Stars, and had private jokes about star names.

[Anonymous No.14845484]

>>14844320
i try not to think about it too much, except for her better hours. Together we learned the constellations using H.A. Reys's The Stars, and had private jokes about star names.

[Anonymous No.14845486]

>>14843988
Can somebody translate what this dude said? Broken English is broken

[Anonymous No.14845546]

>>14845486
There's one missing comma between "happiness" and "that"
Are you ESL?

[Anonymous No.14846247]

>>14845546
I don't know, are you a faggot?

[Anonymous No.14846303]

>>14845486
Don't worry, be happy.
Just be yourself.
You'll get over it.