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/sci/ - Science & Math

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14724730 No.14724730 [Reply] [Original]

explain to me, if science has an answer to this, why professional tennis players, after 1000á of hours of practice and match experiences, they still fail to manage getting their 1st serve over the net
And for those of you who don't know, 1st serve is about speed rather than accuracy. But how definite can accuracy become, or rather fail to become because these are the best players ever and noone is going to put in more work, and they still fail (their first serve) on a reasonably consistent basis. .. Why?

>> No.14724735

idk i always serve your mom in my first attempt lol

>> No.14724745

they do it on purpose to unnerve the opponent

>> No.14724765

>>14724745
hahahhaaa no they don't
>let me serve this guearenteed first shot win as a false to unnerve him/her so that in my next attempt i have a higher chance of winning my far less intimidating shot because the rules dictate me to make it past the net this time

>> No.14725080

>>14724730
Because they're favoring service speed, which means less top spin, and the ball has to curve somewhat to land in the service box. They're basically decreasing their margin of error since less spin means less area to land the ball. Very tall players have a greater margin of error, which is why they tend to have higher first serve percentages while also hitting flatter serves.

>> No.14725202

>>14724730
>And for those of you who don't know, 1st serve is about speed rather than accuracy
No.

>> No.14725432

>>14725202
it is though
1st serve is abt getting that point, 2nd serve more about not losing it
>>14725080
that still doesn't explain why all those details haven't amounted to a near perfect outcome after all that invested energy and all those hours of practice

>> No.14725508

>>14724730
Because the goal isn't to make it over the next every serve, it's to make it so that the other guy doesn't catch it. When you optimize for the second goal there exist a set of values where accounting for your error the optimal spot to aim is still such that some of them go straight to the net. You could certainly play it safe but then you are just handing your opponent easier balls and you can just choke under pressure which can lead to significantly worse serve even if your theoretical stats are basically perfect.

>> No.14725581

>>14725508
are you saying they pay attention to their opponent and calculate if they're going to catch the ball on the 1st serve, and in conclusion they would they intentionally lose their 1st serve?

>> No.14725785

>>14725581
No, it's simply more difficult for your opponent to deal with a ball that flies faster. To get the ball to go faster without it flying over the zone you must get it to land at means you have to jump higher and aim lower, otherwise it will overshoot, more over the last 2 factors also make it more difficult to hit back on their own giving better trajectory for the ball.
To get the best speed and the best angles and the highest chance of getting points you must be pushing the limits of what you can do which occasionally means you overshoot or hit the net. If you never go near those limits then you are just feeding easy ball after easy ball and inevitably losing

>> No.14725863

>>14725432
They could probably serve 20 mph slower and get near 100% first serve conversion, but they decided that they double fault infrequently enough that it's worth taking the chance to serve one at 100% if it gives them, lets say, a 80% chance to win the point if it goes in
it's about having an 80% chance to win 50% of the time and a 50% chance to win 50% of the time, better than having a 60% chance to win 100% of the time

>> No.14725891 [DELETED] 

>>14724730
first serve is about accuracy, especially when serving the ad court, cause i use a reverse slice on my first for that side, but i switch it up with a spinning racket head and go for an american twist sometimes too.

>> No.14726046

the tennis player may be from Serbia or Tunisia, but they all speak English. This is funny.

>> No.14726062 [DELETED] 
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14726062

>>14726046

>> No.14726269

>>14725891
if first serve is about accuracy then what is the second, slower, serve about?

>> No.14726444

>>14725785
alright sure
but this still doesn't explain why they don't hit the ball perfectly accurate the 1st time like they do the 2nd time except with far higher speed and the same accuracy yet much faster

>> No.14726959

>>14725432
>that still doesn't explain why all those details haven't amounted to a near perfect outcome after all that invested energy and all those hours of practice
Because they're hitting the ball as flat as possible to increase pace, which means they only have a margin of error of inches while swinging at full speed. Guys like Karlovic and Isner are exceptions because they're close to seven feet tall, so they have a much larger landing area. Every player could put a lot of top spin on their serve and get it in nearly 100% of the time. You might as well ask why golfers don't hit 100% of fair ways, or why pitchers don't throw 100% strikes (excusing intentional balls). Even with near perfect execution, an error of millimeters on a ball going over 100 mph will result in a significant miss.

>> No.14726987

>>14726444
>but this still doesn't explain why they don't hit the ball perfectly accurate the 1st time like they do the 2nd time
They don't hit it perfectly accurate the 2nd time, they put more spin on the ball so they have more margin for error.

>> No.14727320

>>14724730
On the first serve, they're aiming close to the lines to try to get an ace. They're also swinging much harder, and they do this over and over for several hours while being fatigued from running and swinging. They are professionals so they have a much higher accuracy and consistency than amateurs, but everyone is human so no one plays perfectly. If everyone could play perfectly there would be no point in having matches.

>> No.14727457

>>14724730
They choose to sacrifice accuracy for speed on the first serve because it's more likely to win the point. They choose to sacrifice speed for accuracy on the second serve because it's less likely to cause a double fault. Let's make up some semi-arbitrary probabilities that are actually somewhat close to real professional numbers and simplify the situation:
>Let odds of faulting on a fast serve be 40% and odds of failing a slow serve be 10%
>Let odds of winning the point after a successful fast serve be 80% and odds of winning a point after a successful slow serve be 50%
Chances of winning the point with two fast serves: [1-(0.6*0.6)]*0.8=0.512. This is the odds of not double faulting times the win probability on a successful fast serve.
Chances of winning the point with two slow serves: (1-(0.1*0.1)]*0.5=0.495
Chances of winning the point with one fast serve and one slow serve: 1-[(0.4*0.1)+(0.4*0.9*0.5)+(0.6*0.2)]=0.66. This is the odds of not losing in any of the three possible scenarios (double fault, single fault and lose point on second serve, lose point on successful first serve).
As you can see, serving fast and then slow gives you the highest probability of winning by a fairly significant margin.

>> No.14727681

>>14727457
i bet there are some of them that just gamble it and go for speed two times, more often than not

>> No.14727687

>>14724730

this shit happens in all professional sport at the highest levels.
NFL quarterbacks missing throws, the receivers dropping them. The kickers miss kicks every game.
And they train this shit their entire life. The kicker has one damn job and they still miss.

I think its just because they try to compete at their limits. So instead of doing stuff thats 100% going to work they push past that point.
The NFL game is designed so the kicker has somebody charging him down, forcing him to do the kick under pressure at the edge of his limit.

I think they just design the sports this way, to ensure fuck ups, drama etc.

>> No.14727701

dont even know if what youre saying is true but fastest way to learn is by doing something initially wrong, and reverse engineering your way out of it. could be used to get used to the court setting as each is unique

>> No.14727716

>>14727687
with tennis is as isolated as it gets
quiet court, alone facing the net and hit the ball
i think they get a minute to do so

>> No.14727909

>>14724730
Also, why is the tennis scoring system so retarded?

15... 30... 40!

>> No.14728683

>>14724730
you ask this question on the wrong board retard. It's tactics. You can try two times so you go high risk high reward the first time and do the second one save.

>> No.14728698

Chess players are even worse. Why can they not find a checkmate in the first move?
But instead they have to try for another boring 40-50 moves? It is not a wonder that
noone has the patience to watch it.

>> No.14728705

>>14727681
So I don't know of any professional that essentially goes for two first serves every time, but Sampras was known, in tight situations, to go for a first serve as his second serve, resulting in a lot of second serve aces. He also had possibly the best serve in history.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAjv9p5VTx8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmJtrk3BhfU

>> No.14728715

>>14727716
I would say golf is even more isolated. Have you played golf? It's a pain in the ass. There's a reason even the best fail to hit perfect shots the majority of the time.

>> No.14729034

>>14728683
yea yea yeah
>wrong board
an array of well articulated answers beg the differ so shut up