2022-11: Warosu is now out of maintenance. Become a Patron!
Can minds exist in principle on any substrate?
You can simulate an NPC, but no Turing machine can ever exhibit free will.
>>14608825There is no way to know and it's not a science-related question, no matter how much neo-religious technocultists insist otherwise.
>>14608829How do you define free will here?
>>14608829does self-preservation allow or deter free will?
>>14608834>There is no way to knowSo you're saying worlds in which this a true are in principle indistinguishable from worlds where it is false?
>>14608849No, I'm saying that science can't distinguish between them.
>>14608825Yes, computers can think just like humans for example
>>14608838Can you give a real world example where this is evidenced?
>>14608852Is the implication you're trying to make that there is something other than science which can distinguish between these worlds?
>>14608862Yes, and what it is should be utterly obvious to anyone who isn't a literal NPC. Is it utterly obvious to you?
>>14608868I'm sure you think science can't decide if someone is dead or not either. Lol back to >>>/x/ with you.
>>14608868I would use the word science in the context of favoring simpler priors and making testable predictions to adjust beliefs. Does your method fall inside these bounds?
>>14608876I'm giving you another chance to demonstrate that you are conscious. If you fail, I will tell you how these worlds can be distinguished without science, you will be forced to accept my point, and you will have trouble saving face and convincing anyone that you are conscious.
>>14608881I'm giving you a chance to stop embarrassing yourself. Stop posting and fuck off back to /x/ since you clearly don't belong on this board.
>>14608885Alright, subhuman NPC, I'll tell you the utterly obvious answer: if artificial minds are possible, artificial minds will know that they exist, even though science would not be able to prove their existence.
>>14608887>even though science would not be able to prove their existence.Of course science would be able to prove their existence in the same way science can prove that someone is either dead or alive. Why are absolute fucking retards like you allowed to use the internet?
>>14608843They are not in conflict. Though the decision for suicide can be a result of free will.
>>14608887I would argue that subjective qualia is not in principle nonreplicable. Current research into neural net circuits in image recognition seem to suggest that across different training algorithms and data sets the same distinct neural circuits form to recognize portions of an image like a particular curved line.
>>14608858For example the decision which porn I'll fap to today. No Turing machine could make this decision.
>>14608893You will never be human.
>>14608897I don't care what you would argue since you've just proven that you have no conscious experience. Call me back when you've successfully used the scientific method to establish that you have a mind. Protip: you can't because you don't .
>>14608899Says the guy who thinks it's impossible to tell the difference between a conscious and an unconscious person. Lmao.
>>14608898Is it that factors outside your awareness, such as subconscious thoughts influence your decision? That is the idea behind the mere exposure effect of advertising.
>>14608901You will literally never be human. To kill you may be a legal offence, but not a moral one. You are not even an animal.
>>14608901The difference is quite easy to tell actually. People who fail to understand the hard problem of consciousness are NPCs.
>>14608894>weighing pros and cons of anhiro'ing and letting god's influence push you to suicide is free willlol rofl lmao
>>14608901>>14608904Shut up both of you. You're annoying and unproductive
>>14608903You're unhinged. Take your meds and stop bothering others>>14608904No one really gives a shit about what your cult leader chalmers says
>>14608910Maybe stop making such retarded threads on /sci/ then you moron.
>>14608913Daily reminder that I'm not the only one who no longer considers your type to be human. Half of the population already thinks you're some kind of subhuman, and a fair number is entertaining the idea that you have no consciousness at all.
>>14608902For NPCs this is certainly the case. But I'm always aware of all relevant information and I'm immune to advertising.
>>14608920Your hallucinations are not reality. Take your meds.
>>14608916You're right I should have posted this retard attractor for the 5th time today
>>14608913Chalmers is a pleb who believes in functionalism. I'm a proud Cartesian dualist.
>>14608923>I'm immune to advertisingworking as intended
>>14608928The difference doesn't really matter to sane people
>>14608928>dualismI'm actually a Truelist. I believe in the mind, body, and god. I don't have any real world evidence to support my claim, but I'm going to base my decisions on it being true anyway and argue with people on the internet about it.
>>14608825Mind is a computation process in CTM, hence electronics can do it. Although we're not there yet because the model isn't complete or fleshed out enough to get a proper mechanistical engineered model.
>Mind is a computation process
>I'm a proud Cartesian dualist.
>I'm a body snatching ghost that have travelled across the cosmos and stolen many human bodies
>>I'm a body snatching ghost that have travelled across the cosmos and stolen many human bodies
>>14608825Only in the same principle as a spherical cow; that is, if you dilute the meaning of a mind to a point of abstraction that's easier to imagine but doesn't actually correspond to anything in reality.
>>14608964>>14608971Nice strawman, but quantum mechanics basically confirms distributed solipsism. We are shaping reality by collapsing wave functions.
>>14609038I'll collapse your asshole if you don't stop talking
>>14609038>quantum mechanics basically confirms
>>14608829Same as any human
>>14609038Look, I'm interested in dualist philosophy but can we please stop envoking quantum voodoo for an explanation of how consciousness can manifest as a spirit/soul/whateverthefuckyouwannacallit? I'm pretty certain we would have detected something by now if consciousness really did have such a massive effect on stuff and could be disembodied.
>>14609348There is nothing "voodoo" about von Neumann / Wigner interpretation.
>>14608923Sure thing bud
>>14608825On any substrate that can form the mechanism of a mind.