/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.1401639]

Why are people opposed to GM? I can't see anything wrong with once we get all the hitches and bugs right.

[Anonymous No.1401649]

It's a public perception thing. Same reason the U.S. is hesitant to pursue nuclear power. Too many science fiction stories of Science Gone Wrong in the vein of Frankenstein and the like.

Honestly, I'd be fucking thrilled to see genetic monstrosities like pig-whales or dwarf alligators or glow-in-the-dark cats.

[Anonymous No.1401652]

>>1401639

Mainly because of a single company: Monsanto, and their stupid greed-head methods.

[Anonymous No.1401656]

It's Frankenfood

[Anonymous No.1401665]

because beans shouldn't be that big.

[Anonymous No.1401669]

People are scared of things they don't understand. Only the ignorant have a real fear of GM products.

[Anonymous No.1401673]

>>1401665
Why?

[Anonymous No.1401690]

Will GM food alter MY genes?

[Anonymous No.1401691]

because middle class cunts make the most noise about the wrong issues

[Anonymous No.1401936]

>>1401639
Because they lobby against other forms of energy.
I would love to see the day we use nuclear power for most of our energy, and Solar / wind / hydrogen for extra, and use oil mainly for material and manufacturing rather than to burn.

[Anonymous No.1401960]

We can't mess with how things were created, it's immoral.

[Anonymous No.1401973]

Because non-GM foods work just fine.

[Anonymous No.1401978]

Opposition to GM is led by the urban middle classes, who see their food as their one tenuous link to nature and are willing to go to great lengths to secure what they consider 'natural' provenance for their food. Witness the popularity of the organic and local food movements. These same middle classes are often deeply anti-intellectual and resent the intrusion of science into an area in which they do not believe it is needed. For comfortably well off people, food is not a necessity but a status symbol and a class indicator. The people who comprise the movement against GM have no real need for cheaper food, for more resistent crops or bigger harvests, since they have never had to deal with hunger. This is a situation where western science could help the poorest people in the world immensely, and it's being stymied by the people of the West because they want to maintain the parochial image of food that they have constructed for themselves. It's frankly quite tragic.

[Anonymous No.1401984]

Because these people are hippies, and hippies are stupid.

What's most entertaining is that most of damage by GM crops is caused by stupid protesters wading through fields of them, bashing the plants around and spreading their pollen everywhere on their clothes.

[Anonymous No.1401986]

BECAUSE ACTUALLY HELPING PEOPLE IS WRONG AND AGAINST GOD

[Anonymous No.1401993]

>>1401978
this person is insightful

[Anonymous No.1401994]

>>1401993

this person is observant.

[коб No.1402174]

>>1401639

the ecosystem is interconnected. eating pesticides does not appeal to me.

kills bees, and we need bees to pollinate plants.

we can already feed the world if food was distributed and not thrown out.

research colony collapse disorder

[Anonymous No.1402279]

the biggest issue is with the antibiotic resistant marker genes, people are worried they could be passed ot the bacteria within your' intestine. Also the south america disaster kind of made people scared of it's economic effects. The rest of the opposition is just by puritans

[коб No.1402284]

>>1401978

Food is distributed according to Economics

Economics is not a science

neither is Social science on which you're relying.

so go and fuck yourself back to Chicago School

[коб No.1402310]

>>1401936

no coincidence that Monsanto is lobbying for GM foods, no coincidence that they bought out seed manufacturers and sue people when their GM crops invade neighboring fields.

Monopolies eliminate competition, make the wealthy wealthier, and inhibit progress.

Just look back to The Rockefellers and the Oil Industry.

Grow GM in the space colonies of the future, stop taking ownership of nature by introducing your genes in to crops that crosspolinate!

[Anonymous No.1402329]

The production of gmf not only is hazardous to the ecosystem as a whole, but also endangers gthe ancient germplasm of a wide variety of specific plants. Monocultural practices, specifically with gmos create a situation where one disease could wipe out massive amounts of crops, placing people in danger of starvation and malnutrition.

Read a book anon this is slashsci...

[Anonymous No.1402375]

>>1402174
GM and pesticides have nothing to do with each other.

>>1402284
I don't see what point you're trying to make here. What does it matter what you call a science? The roots of the anti-GM campaign are still the same.

>>1402310
We already have ownership of nature. 'natural' farmed food is just as industrialised as GM production, and we've been meddling with genes through selective breeding since the prehistoric era. How is it any different to make changes to the genome directly?

You seem pretty anti-intellectual. What are you doing on a science board?

[коб No.1402411]

>>1402375

please crossbreed me a tuna with a tomato.

If its not scientific is fucking Socratian jew double bluff.

GM crops are made resistant to herbicides or are engineered to produce pesticides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_Borlaug

this man did more to feed the world than Monsanto ever did, and he did it by means of natural selection.

[Anonymous No.1402433]

>>1402411
>jew double bluff

I give up. Time to get back to my research where I get paid to improve crops for the good of humanity. Good luck hurring and durring up the board!

[коб No.1402453]

>>1402433
>I get paid to improve crops for the good of humanity

read as, i'm going to look at myself in the mirror and jerk off to my reflection because i'm so fucking awesome and smart.

[коб No.1402464]

[Anonymous No.1402470]

>>1402453
I do this every day.

[Anonymous No.1402484]

I am Anti-GMed foods. Been working in restaurants my whole working career, went to culinary school, and (as of recent) and amateur gardener.

I understand it CAN help us. But for now, it doesn't. What it does do is discourage heirloom varieties (bred for flavor/quality) and encourage plants that taste like cardboard, but yield a lot. Aside from taste (and if coupled with pesticides/fertilizers) nutritional value goes down hill as well. Then you're caught in a loop. Fixing problems with more genetic modification, brought on by genetic modification.

I'm far from what you could call a hippie, or a health foodie. I love great tasting food, and a variety of it. Nature has a very intricate, beautiful system and I don't think we are educated on it well enough to maintain or improve that system. GMed foods taste like nothing, and are mostly processed to make, well, processed foods that are making this country fat.

[коб No.1402504]

>>1402484

Totally agree

we should have space colony already, if not for IMF and the rest of them crooks who concentrate, standardize and homogenize!

[Anonymous No.1402515]

I think there are legitimate arguments against GM food from an intellectual property standpoint- it opens up a lot of weird possibilities. Also we need to be very careful not to create an invasive species.

I don't think there's anything wrong with GM food per se, It's just that it needs to be done cautiously. It's potentially a situation where we're not entirely aware of the ultimate impact (interfering with native species, etc.). Considering the potential profits involved, I'm not sure companies and governments are as careful as they should be.

But most of the public criticism is coming from a totally anti-intellectual standpoint that doesn't recognize any sort of nuance, and I can't really get behind that.

[Anonymous No.1402524]

>>1402484

Commonly grown cultivars don't taste like cardboard already? I mean cavendish bananas and red delicious apples...

Who says GM foods can't be modified for better flavor or higher nutritional content? That's actually a huge part of the motivation behind them.

[Anonymous No.1402529]

>>1402484
>I understand it CAN help us. But for now, it doesn't.
It's not meant to help you. It's meant to help people who are in danger of famine.

>heirloom varieties (bred for flavor/quality)
This is a fallacy. Do you really think the peasant farmers of the past were lip-smacking gourmands who bred their rocket to have just the right peppery tang? They bred for yield.

There are heirloom varieties of apples that taste like polystyrene. GM affects the same genetic code as selective breeding and evolution, so why can't we GM for taste? Well, because the people who care about taste are like you: they dislike GM on principle and rationalise it using pretty much the same arguments- we shouldn't meddle with nature, food that's been GMed isn't real, it will poison us all, etc etc. You're basically covering up your real reasoning, which as I explained in >>1401978 is that you see food as a status symbol, not a necessity.

[Anonymous No.1402574]

>>1402524

>Then you're caught in a loop. Fixing problems with more genetic modification, brought on by genetic modification.

It just doesn't seem worth it. And the way we're going right now, we have slimmed down hundreds of varieties of one crop to one or two.I suggest we just use heirlooms, buy local, and preferably organic (but I won't get on that).

Also, understand where I stand comes from the food perspective alone. I don't give a shit if you cross a gorilla and an octopus for warfare. I just want people to stay the fuck away from my food. Go ahead and GM crops, and feed those who don't oppose, but please, leave an alternative option (see farmers markets).

As of now, companies (or just monsanto), go around literally trying to destroy every other crop that isn't theirs. If you run a farm, and their corn accidentally cross pollinates with your corn, they will sue you and win.

I truthfully don't give a shit about the rest of the world, but let the individual choose.

[Anonymous No.1402608]

>>1402574
>use heirlooms, buy local, and preferably organic
you are pretty much this person >>1401978

>As of now, companies (or just monsanto), go around literally trying to destroy every other crop that isn't theirs. If you run a farm, and their corn accidentally cross pollinates with your corn, they will sue you and win.
This is a criticism of particular companies, not a scientific practice.

[Anonymous No.1402610]

>>1402574

Starvation's no big deal then, right? If Hatians or whatever would just learn to "buy local, and preferably organic", everything would be fine.

[Anonymous No.1402613]

most GM are just round up resist shit, useless product to bring patent (good word ?) to control food market, etc

where are the desert's tomatoes ? where are the one make to live in salty soil ????

sorry for my poor english

[Anonymous No.1402627]

>>1401649
While what you say is true, there's legitimate problems to nuclear power, but much less so for GM crops.

[Anonymous No.1402630]

>
>As of now, companies (or just monsanto), go around literally trying to destroy every other crop that isn't theirs. If you run a farm, and their corn accidentally cross pollinates with your corn, they will sue you and win.
This is a criticism of particular companies, not a scientific practice.


we are not only talking about science here... societies related.

[Anonymous No.1402632]

>>1401639

1. Monsanto is being investigated for monopolistic practices. Terminator genes etc.

2. Gene pollution detected in non-GM crops, bio-piracy, and related legal issues

GM foods are not inherently bad, but the way it's currently done has ethical and legal issues that need to be resolved.

[Anonymous No.1402642]

NON GM FOOD AT THE CURRENT TIME TASTES BETTER

UNTIL THEN I AM WILING TO SPEND MORE FOR TASTIER FOOD

I BELIEVE GM FOOD IS VITAL FOR HUMANITY'S SURVIVAL.

[Anonymous No.1402643]

>>1402630
No, I think we pretty much are talking about science here. Notice the title of the board.

[Anonymous No.1402658]

>>1402529

>It's not meant to help you. It's meant to help people who are in danger of famine.

Please do some research on this. The people who are in danger of famine are not that way because of a lack of food on a global scale, it is because of their own corrupt governments and growing population. As the world is now, we could feed all the people on this planet. It has nothing to do with the amount available.

>This is a fallacy. Do you really think the peasant farmers of the past were lip-smacking gourmands who bred their rocket to have just the right peppery tang?

Absolutely not. But keep in mind, they would only grow a select few crops, as dictated by their lord. You could do an experiment for me; Go to the store (walmart would probably be the best bet) and get a tomato you suspect to be mass-produced or Gmed. Then go you your local farmers market and find a nice purple heirloom tomato. Taste the difference.
> Well, because the people who care about taste are like you: they dislike GM on principle and rationalise it using pretty much the same arguments- we shouldn't meddle with nature, food that's been GMed isn't real, it will poison us all, etc etc.

I never said anything like that. It is real, it just sucks. It won't poison us, but will leave us malnourished. And I know we already meddle with nature, this is not based off principle. This is based of my logic.

>You're basically covering up your real reasoning, which as I explained in >>1401978 is that you see food as a status symbol, not a necessity.

I do not see food as a status symbol, and you're putting words into my mouth. I see food as food, and I don't give a shit about my status. I but clothes from good will, I don't care if I ever have a big house, or nice car, and I don't ever want to make more money than I need to live comfortably. I don't think assumptions will get you anywhere. Please stop pushing your theory as if it was fact.

[Anonymous No.1402685]

>>1402610
>>Implying Haitians starve because of lack of food.

[Anonymous No.1402696]

>>1402643
haaa you know what I meant anon... we can't talk about these kind of stuff (concern food) without talking about sociological implications

and ethics.

otherwise it's just another science developpment... ?

[Anonymous No.1402703]

Are you kidding? I'm waiting for us to figure out how to produce vat-grown meat. I will be on that like a motherfucker. You think I care about whether a tomato was grown in a lab or in a field?

[Anonymous No.1402705]

>>1402685
wrong : starvation caus' of lack of food is very rare.
Reals reasons are economics

[Anonymous No.1402706]

>>1402658

>You could do an experiment for me; Go to the store (walmart would probably be the best bet) and get a tomato you suspect to be mass-produced or Gmed. Then go you your local farmers market and find a nice purple heirloom tomato. Taste the difference.

There are other reasons for that. Most store bought tomatos are picked early for ease of transportation, and then artificially ripened. The most easily available foods may not be appealing to you but you can't blame that exclusively on GM food. It's just not a fair comparison.

[Anonymous No.1402710]

>>1402696

Agreed. Although GMs can help, the people who control them only seem to be hurting.

[Anonymous No.1402713]

>>1402703
who are you talking to ???

[Anonymous No.1402727]

>>1402706

You're right, I did offer 2 extreme conditions. It was more of an example of why mass-production is bad, and not a good example of GM. I'm willing to admit that mistake. Sometimes I just get so caught up when I talk about food. ;_;

[Anonymous No.1402730]

>>1402713

The OP, sorry. I just share his opinion that I fail to see any non-kneejerk reason why GM foods should be feared, beyond "it's badwrongtech" or vague and nebulously-worded references to "natural" being better than "artificial" or "traditional" being better than "modern," with no evidence beyond that clingy gut instinct.

[sage No.1402736]

You now realize that it is almost certain you ate GMO derived products today and the day before

[Anonymous No.1402738]

>>1402685
they destroyed their forest ==> shitty soil performances caus' every good things in gone with fucking rains.

[Anonymous No.1402751]

>>1402730

Can't find the link right now. But I did see a study where Mice were fed only GMOs, and after 3 generations became sterile.

[Anonymous No.1402758]

>>1402658
>As the world is now, we could feed all the people on this planet. It has nothing to do with the amount available.

And in 60 years when the world's population has doubled?

You could do an experiment for me; Go to the store (walmart would probably be the best bet) and get a tomato you suspect to be mass-produced or Gmed. Then go you your local farmers market and find a nice purple heirloom tomato. Taste the difference.

That's more an indictment of supermarkets than it is of GM. If I was to analyse your natural organic purple tomato and found the genes that made it taste good, I could engineer a strain of GM tomatoes to have the exact same characteristics, and be resistant to pests, and to require less water, and to be able to grow in hardier conditions. AN overall superior plant. But GM is incredibly fucking expensive to do, so companies are forced to modify crops for yield only and avoid more nebulous quantities like taste.

Besides, taste is well documented to be a subjective experience. Are you sure your farmers-market tomato doesn't just taste better because you expect it to, because you've invested a lot of time and effort in acquiring it, and because by preferring it you're making a social point against supermarkets and so on?

>It won't poison us, but will leave us malnourished.
Another fallacy. Why will it leave us malnourished?

[Anonymous No.1402768]

>>1402730

no ethics, no interest product, MAYBE dangerous (mon810), too much power for this firm, ideology, lot of health scandals, taste, etc choose one !

[Anonymous No.1402777]

>>1401639
because the IP laws players like Monsanto owns will fuck over local agriculture.

Farmer: Oops, one of your products cross pollinated with mine!
Monsanto: See you in court!

[Anonymous No.1402781]

The middleclass idea that the whole world could be fed on locally-derived organic natural free-from foods is just breathtakingly ignorant of the realities of food production.

[Anonymous No.1402797]

>>1402751

http://www.responsibletechnology.org/utility/showArticle/?objectID=4888

Found it
>>1402758

>And in 60 years when the world's population has doubled?

I don't know what will happen in the future. And neither do you, but we should also try to avoid population growth as well, but that's a different subject. Look. I gotta go to work now, so I really can't chat. Obviously I'm not gonna change your mind, and you're certainly not going to change mine. Let's just agree to disagree.

>Another fallacy. Why will it leave us malnourished?

Okay, one more point. The food is bred for yield, not nourishment. Studies have been done, that show GMO crops contain less nutritional value then the 'regular' crops. I really can't be bothered to look this up now though, I gotta go.

Thank for chattin, friend!

[Anonymous No.1402803]

>>1402797
It's good to argue with an articulate person for once

[Anonymous No.1402841]

>>1401978

This is completely wrong and you are sorely out of touch if you believe this. There are a number of reasons people are against GM foods. The biggest ones are that companies copyright genes and spread their seeds on private farms only so that later on they can serve the farmers with copyright infringement lawsuits (and then make them settle out of court as well as make them have to destroy all of their seed stock which they have been using for generations). Furthermore, with how easily the GM plants can crossbreed and spread their genes in the wild we're seeing cases where the crops are showing up in the middle of nowhere, even outside of the United States where they are not allowed to be grown.

The growth of GM foods by industry and private farms goes even further to destroy biodiversity in the environment and allows the producers to benefit even more from the droughts and floods that destroy the crops of clients. Lower biodiversity also slowly kills the top soil on the surface of the planet (makes the land infertile).

If you don't understand any of this then you are not allowed to talk about the subject.

[Anonymous No.1402851]

>>1402768
>no ethics
Yes yes, the scary corporation has no ethics and is interested in the black abomination we call profit. Which makes it different from every other corporation, consortium or union ever because...
Oh, I get it. You think farmer's unions are more ethical than that. They care more about the health and safety of their consumers than about how they're going to meet those quotas and fill the pockets of their members. Ha. Next.
>no interest product
Not sure what this is supposed to say.
>MAYBE dangerous
Oh, maybe? Run in horror, it's a MAYBE!!! Summon the guards! Whereas the food our forefathers ate and the water they drank never hurt a goddamned soul. No, it was completely clean, and all that beer and cider and heavily cooked food they ate was a sign of their complete trust in the safety of their naturally-grown foods. Next.
>Too much power for this firm
Yeah, they've grown nice and big and scary, like successful companies shouldn't. Let's sack their castle and let REAL people be in charge, right? Because when small cooperative consortiums screw up and poison people, they're always brought to swift justice and never diffuse responsibility so thoroughly that no one is left to sue. Next.
>Ideology
Isn't this the same as bitching about their ethics? Or do you think the political or religious beliefs of these scientists are leaking into our fruits and veggies? NOM NOM NOMoops now i'm a libertarian. Next.

[Anonymous No.1402854]

>>1402851
>A lot of health scandals
Remember that whole "our forefathers' food never hurt anyone" line I gave you? Believe it or not, that was sarcasm. Food poisoning has gone from being one of the biggest causes of sickness and death in the modern world to being one of the smallest, and it's people like you who cause panics over "Mountain Dew sterilizing men who drink it" or "baby formula causing autism." Hell, you don't even have to go back that far to find examples of "healthy groceries" that got busted for crappy health standards and people dying. Go ask your parents about a now-extinct grocery called Food Lion. Where health scandals occur that aren't tempests in a teacup, heads roll and the yipeing worriers like you invariably raise enough of a stink that everybody finds out about it from their local news channel (I give you Spaghetti-Os.) So for once, thanks. Your shrieking fear of the future pays dividends. Next.
>taste
Okay, that's a valid complaint. If you've taken the blind Pepsi challenge with these foods and find that you prefer the taste of traditionally-grown foods, that's your choice and I'll defend your right to make it. You... you have subjected yourself to that kind of rigor, right? Instead of letting your brain do the talking for your stomach and tongue? Yeah, you probably have.

[Anonymous No.1402867]

Fucking farmers in the United States and Canada aren't even capable of growing a profitable farm. Unlike most other countries they get their shit subsidized by the government. Goddamn welfare babies taking my taxes.

[Anonymous No.1402880]

>>1402841

"The biggest ones are that companies copyright genes and spread their seeds on private farms only so that later on they can serve the farmers with copyright infringement lawsuits"

Ah, the famous Percy Schmeiser case. Except that it turned out he was lying, and that he purposefully stole GM seeds and planted his entire crop with them. That's like downloading a shitload of movies and songs, then claiming the big bad entertainment companies infected your computer with them.

>The growth of GM foods by industry and private farms goes even further to destroy biodiversity in the environment and allows the producers to benefit even more from the droughts and floods that destroy the crops of clients.

Genetic engineering increases biodiversity.

[Anonymous No.1402892]

>>1402851

>NOM NOM NOMoops now i'm a libertarian

I can't stop laughing at this.

[Anonymous No.1402898]

>>1401638

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[Anonymous No.1402923]

>>1402841
>If you don't understand any of this then you are not allowed to talk about the subject.

>If you don't agree with everything I say then you are not allowed to talk about the subject.

[Anonymous No.1402924]

>>1402851
there is a world between us. I can't really argue here, my english is shitty since I've stopped using it in my all day life.... but there is a world between us. I hate lobbying, it's an anti democratic way to do.

Also, your post was full of sophism.

[Anonymous No.1402937]

>>1402923
herp derp, I can't science but I still can argue with science.

[Anonymous No.1402943]

>>1402924

Why do I get the distinct feeling that that's the very best counter-argument you'll come up with?

Look, I'm not suggesting you shouldn't be allowed to remain in Plato's Cave if you want. I personally have no desire to force you and yours to eat GM foods, then do the I told you so dance when you're just fine afterwards. But for god sakes, the rest of us want to go outside and stop being afraid of the shadows now. And shrieking and kicking isn't helping anyone, least of all you.

[Anonymous No.1402949]

>>1402880
My ass, there are hundreds of types of corn in Mexico, hundreds of types of potatoes in peru, practically everywhere that used to grow these plants natively has hundreds of varieties and they still use various types.

In the United States and Canada there are only like 2 types of corn. In fact, most foods have only one variety, industry farms typically focus on only the most profitable and marketable, so their fields are all single-crop fields.

[Anonymous No.1402951]

>>1401635
sｔOｐ atｔACKＩｎG_ａｎｄ FUｃｋIｎＧ_ＷIＴH wwｗ.ａNＯCaRｒｏtｓｔaｌk.Ｓe ＲｅｐlａＣｅ_ｃＡＲRoＴs WItH n
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[Anonymous No.1402956]

>>1402949

Not the guy you're responding to, but... Mexico? Peru? Really? These are the shining examples of good health and eating cleanliness you're using in your argument? Fuck, if that's what biodiversity is being used to mean, then sign me up for the monoculture.

[Anonymous No.1402970]

>>1402943

Lol
eating GM will make you see the world as it is.....


Man, as you said, you can't force anyone eating those things.

In my case, I don't have problems with GM by itself, but I have with GM produced by firms like Monsanto. Can't you see the difference ???

I have the feeling you are one of those person who can't stand wild Nature and rather prefer it controlled by men... In my country, there is no more Primaries forests... I can't explain why, but I think It sucks. OK that really nothing to do with GM, but I think it comes with the same vision of the world...

Again, sorry for this shitty english.

[Anonymous No.1402976]

>>1402956
....

[Anonymous No.1402990]

I always find it amusin that while GM foods grown hydopnicly or in vats, indoor would alow the planets farms to go back to nature by the billions of acres the greens are against it cause it might not be good for them. thought it was earth first hypocritfags

[Anonymous No.1402999]

>>1402970

Monsanto can go to hell for abusing intellectual copyright laws, sure. Do I condemn them for trying to produce genetically modified seed? Of course not. Can you see the difference?

When people say "wild Nature" as opposed to "man", I always get kind of a giggle out of it. These people condemn, say, a man building a concrete dam across a river, but defend with passion a beaver that blocks up a waterflow doing the exact same. Ultimately, I suspect that what these people really are is self-loathing, and that there is no answer save for abandoning "control by man" altogether and a total return to "wild Nature" that will please them.

Did you know that there was a significant minority of people who opposed the first Moon mission, as a "despoiling of nature's splendor?" They felt that going there would take all the mystery, all the romantic nonsense out of it. Not only were they foolish and cowardly, they were also factually incorrect, as many lovely romantic songs and artwork of the moon have been created since (in fact, some inspired by the moon missions themselves). Go a little further back, and you'll find people demanding that Alfred Kinsey cease his research on human sexual behavior, as "stealing the magic of sexuality from us." I suspect it is the descendents of this mindset that now so fiercely opposed genetic crop modification, and turn such a blind eye to the evils it can stop and the goods it can start.

[Anonymous No.1403034]

>>1402949

There are hundreds of types of corn inn the United States. There are two that are more popular than others, but that's an issue of modern agriculture. This "GM food causes a decrease in biodiveristy" is a canard.

[Anonymous No.1403038]

>>1402999
well, ok I'm not like this... I'n not a return-to-nature one.

I just think that we must not make a giant garden of earth. It's not man/nature, but man who have to lear living with nature whitout dominating it. I would love we create huge part of earth free of men, like natural reservs, but more great.

for monsanto : the problem is not they produce GM, but that they try to dominate the whole food production of countries. When those kind of firm are too huge, they are dangerous

[Anonymous No.1403040]

>>1402949

Last Saturday I went down to the local Mennonite Farmer's Market (Kansas City, KS here) and bought 2 more types of corn than you say exist in your post. There were 4 or 5 types I didn't buy. You've gotta stop getting your information from www.ohgodthey'recomingtotakeourtrees.com just because they've got a couple links to study summaries, dude. Consider sources, and stop spreading FUD.

[Anonymous No.1403043]

>>1402999

>Monsanto can go to hell for abusing intellectual copyright laws, sure. Do I condemn them for trying to produce genetically modified seed? Of course not. Can you see the difference?

Not really. People always say this, but it always comes down to GM food research.

Do you get upset at other companies that prevent the patents on their inventions? No? So what's the difference? GM food.

[Anonymous No.1403047]

>>1402956

It's because they don't leech off the government. Enjoy your subsidized food.

[Anonymous No.1403054]

FACT:
100% of GM seeds lead to submuission of producer to seed firms.

Enjoy losing all control over your alimentation.

FACT:
GM DOES have consequence on other cultures. It has been proved, and in most country, GM fields must be circled by non-GM field to prevent any contamination.

Enjoy having all weedkiller-GM useless, since the target will get resistant too.

And, finally, there is a possible, yet slight, danger about our health.

[Anonymous No.1403058]

>>1403038

You're close, but stop generalizing Monsanto to all firms that grow beyond a given size or longevity. Believe it or not, there are in fact companies that get gigantic and prosperous because they're good at what they do, WITHOUT stabbing orphans in the kidneys to get there. You just don't hear about these companies in the 6:00 Shocking Scandal Of The Week segment on TV (unless the segment is about how great it is to work at Google or some such).

[Anonymous No.1403064]

Only once we've finally got rid of intellectual property, may innovation be rediscovered.

[Anonymous No.1403067]

Yeah, since the general population is opposed to changing things or are afraid of shit they don't understand naturally they bite into fear mongering.

Its the public and politicians holding back scientific advancement now. And genetic modification and things up that alley (stem cell research, LHC, nuclear power..) That whole NIMBY (not in my backyard) thing kicks in.

If people don't understand it they don't want it, politicians bite into it and to get voters they'll regulate it and make it harder for people working on these types of things to do their jobs.

[Anonymous No.1403073]

>>1403040

Implying menonite farmer's markets get their crops from industrial farms and not small private farms.

Why don't you work on your reading comprehension before you claim others are spreading FUD against the poor corporations.

[Anonymous No.1403077]

>>1403054

>100% of GM seeds lead to submuission of producer to seed firms.

Seed companies make seeds, farmers can choose to buy seeds, or choose to not buy seeds. That's like saying "ZOMG! 100% of Mt. Dew leads to submishun of Mt. Dew consumers by Pepsico!"

>GM DOES have consequence on other cultures. It has been proved, and in most country, GM fields must be circled by non-GM field to prevent any contamination.

Name one. What's the prevent somebody's GM crops from getting contaminated by non-GM crops?

[Anonymous No.1403078]

>>1403054
Yes. Thats why we need to research these things more to find out if its dangerous in any way and to fix the problems.

[Anonymous No.1403083]

>>1403064

Why would scientist want to innovate if they can't profit from their research via patents?

[Anonymous No.1403088]

by going too fast, scientists loose contact with people. Populations don't understand anymore the world they live in.

[Anonymous No.1403089]

>>1403078

GM foods are heavily tested for safety before release. How much safety testing is required before the anti-GM nuts will finally admit it's safe? It's a constantly moving goal post.

[Anonymous No.1403098]

>>1403083
glory ?
saving the world ? (contributing to)

Why everyone want to have 10 000 000 millions on his bank count ???

[Anonymous No.1403105]

>>1403098

[Anonymous No.1403106]

>>1403083

lololol, indurring fallacies.

Patents and Copyrights only crush competition and stifle growth and innovation. They're the bane of capitalism, there are other companies out there that can do what you do at higher quality and for lower costs.

[Anonymous No.1403112]

GM food is largely monopolized by Monsanto and they abuse patents like there ain't no tomorrow. /thread

[Anonymous No.1403115]

>>1403083
None of the scientists I know do it for profit. They do it because it's virtuous, because they enjoy being a world expert on a topic, because they like to be the first people to know a particular fact, but very few scientists get rich and everyone in the community understands this.

[Anonymous No.1403121]

>>1403106

How do patents crush competition and innovation?

[Anonymous No.1403125]

>>1403115

How many scientists do you know who would not want to get a patent on their work if it had commercial potential?

None of them, that's how many.

[Anonymous No.1403130]

>>1403058
haaa you'are maybe right ... but I continue to think it's too much power in some hands.
I'm not a scientist, but contamination to other plants afraid me... wat about if some pest plants developpe resistance to it's predators by gene transfers and invade culturs ? it's a real risk, no ?

[Anonymous No.1403144]

Here's my humble opinion

If we GM certain crops to be nitrogen fixing, this eliminates the need for fertilizer, which is a good thing in the long run. There are certain things I don't like about GM foods however, but I don't really need to get into that.

GM for people, i think, is a much more promising thing.

[Anonymous No.1403147]

Ohohohoho I just had the greatest idea.

Open.
Source.
Soy.

I'll handle Monsanto.

[Anonymous No.1403148]

>>1403077

Farmers can grow their own supply of seeds, but with their seeds being contaminated by GM seeds they're effectively forced to either infringe copyright (unknowingly in most cases) or to buy GM seeds.

It's not the same thing you degenerate fool.

Thing is it doesn't matter if GM crops are contaminated by non GM crops, because non GM crops do not have copyrighted genes.

There have been tons of instances where they have contaminated other fields. There were a huge number of lawsuits because of this. In some cases Monsanto actually had truck drivers drive by the fields and release large stocks of seeds into the wind. They claimed it was an accident but Monsanto went on further to say that enough seed was spilled to cover many acres (in that case, all of the fields owned by that farmer in question). This was in regards to Monsanto's RoundUp Ready Canola Seed. It happened all over the United States and Canada.

[Anonymous No.1403150]

>>1403125
there are a lot of sciences that don't bring monney to scientists : astrophysic, archeo's, historians...

[Anonymous No.1403158]

>>1403144

Also, modifying foods like rice to produce nutrients like vitamin c that are essential, but they wouldn't normally produce, is, i think, very important to helping malnutrition in poor countries

[Anonymous No.1403168]

>>1403158
but we don't see this....

as we don't see generics for malaria or else.

those kind of research would be left to UNO and then, everybody could profit !

[Anonymous No.1403193]

>>1403168

Well, hate to disagree with you, but

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_rice

We don't see it as much as we should though, i will say that

[Anonymous No.1403194]

>>1403073

>In the United States and Canada there are only like 2 types of corn.

That's your words, copied and pasted. You're the one sucking the dick of the oh-so-self-reliant and extinct private farms, the ones you don't seem to think still exist in America.

We get it, you're an island, growing your own food, and you don't owe anyone anything. Oh wise and independent John Galt, who saw through the evil scientists trying to trick his soul, what foresight you had!

I feel glad that things like "naturally-grown" foods, homeopathic medicine, and Atkins dieters are still allowed and will always be allowed in our society. It's good to have a living example to point to when we're teaching our children how a rational man doesn't act, and how faulty logic can lead to the most dedicated of fools.

[Anonymous No.1403198]

>>1403193

Also, it's vitamin A, not C, but both are important

I think that eventually they could make it so a certain amount of rice could provide 100% daily value of everything you need, and also be nitrogen fixing, so it didn't need fertilizer

[коб No.1403199]

1. GM as a science is a good thing. As a science, it should stay in the lab until we are certain that i can do no harm.

2. We have enough food in the world to feel the population of the world if Americans didn't dump perfectly good nutrients in the trash.

2.1 Often starving Indians have better nutrition than Americans, because processed food is often deprived of nutrients. Empty calories are empty.

3. We should restructure society and make it open source, everybody should have access to any information and should be able to check any research. Relying on elites to interpret science is archaic.

[Anonymous No.1403204]

>>1403098

Because a long time ago somebody realized that if you have a lot of what people want in general (money, land, fertility in some cultures), you can trade that for what you personally want in specific.

And because the world's leading scientists haven't been raised in monasteries for about 700 years now.

[Anonymous No.1403212]

Do you know about golden rice? It is genetically manipulated. It has a fuckload of beta-carotine so poor asian people dont go blind from a lack of it.

They would eat this shit but OUR goverment/EU thinks it is immoral or too dangerous or what ever to grow that shit there.

[Anonymous No.1403217]

>implying making all vegetables the size of giant 200 pound pumpkins wouldn't drive down costs for food in general.

[Anonymous No.1403221]

>>1403088

And THIS is what it boils down to. "We don't understand." Thank you. What those people generally don't realize is that you don't have to understand, nor are there really enough hours in the day to understand, all the things that can potentially scare us. Do you really want to understand GM foods? Good! Do research! Go to college and get a degree in genetics or botany or horticulture! Become an expert! Just realize that you'll still probably not know all you want to about... say, the LHC, or economic theory, or AIDS.

I don't get it does not equal it is bad for me. That's the knee-jerking reaction that we're finally evolving out of.

[Anonymous No.1403222]

>>1403193
oh well, I'm a smurf...

[Anonymous No.1403225]

>implying making chickens the size of elephants wouldn't be good for world hunger. we would be able to feed them with corn kernals that are the size of grapefruits.

[коб No.1403226]

>>1403198

speaking on behalf of round eyes, you can stick your rice where the sun don't shine.

i dont need my food to be perfectly balanced, i'm not a dog.

We have space age technology that can grow food for all the African and equator peoples of the world.

Aeroponics/Hydroponics required the least amount of water.

we can already feed the world, but instead corporation are spreading their patented genes in to the ecosystem to one day own us all!

[Anonymous No.1403227]

>>1403194
bravo

[Anonymous No.1403228]

>>1403204
Not the guy you're responding to, but let's put it this way. The free market is a game, getting the government to rig things in your behalf is cheating. There are ways to make money that don't involve patents, fund-and-release for example.

Also note that scientists are rarely the ones making the millions, it's the the investors, executives, and entrepreneurs that rake in all of the cash.

[Anonymous No.1403229]

>>1403212
that grow in their country... where is the prob ?

[Anonymous No.1403233]

>>1403130

Eh, it's about the same risk as large-scale adaptation of germs to overuse of antibiotics. Which means yeah, it's a real risk that should be (and is being) researched, but it's also a verifiable fact that proper use of antibiotics (read: moderation) saves lives.

Moderation in science. That's why condemn Monsanto, but support GM foods wholeheartedly.

[Anonymous No.1403234]

>>1403221
Personally, if I dont know anything about a certain topic that intrigues me, I really start researching it. I dont go into depth, but I learn enough to satisfy my curiosity.

That is possible.

[коб No.1403235]

>>1403221

go to college as opposed to your local library and read a book.

[T No.1403237]

I'm against GM foods... right now, we have very little understanding of how foods react chemically within themselves and after we've consumed them. Food is a lot more complex than just size, color, and vitamin content. Many vitamins in the plant are able to react with each other, and then with your body as it is being digested.

Yes, we can isolate specific variables and manipulate them, but it seems that it is focused most on size, amount, color, resistance to pesticides (making the foods resistant doesn't mean it makes our bodies resistant to whatever pesticides the food absorbs), etc.

There has been a few good things (vitamin A added to rice, for example) to come from GM, and I'm sure it can be much more helpful... but that would require a social and scientific maturity we have not reached yet. Bigger and More is not Healthier. It just makes more money.

[Anonymous No.1403247]

>>1403147

...Holy shit. I've never expanded the analogy, but it's theoretically possible.

However, what makes the open-source software market viable is the ease of entry. Any hack with a laptop can create product and collaborate. To work with GM food, you need multimillion dollar equipment and a delicate transport infrastructure. Open source might work as a protection agreement for government or nonprofit varieties... Idk.

[Anonymous No.1403254]

>>1403237
You dont know nothing about genetics.
We can alter whatever we want. We just need the sequence of DNA that codes for, say, a protein and we have to know what it does.

There are no dangers.

[Anonymous No.1403257]

>>1403247

The price is going down. Slowly but surely, it's going down.

[Anonymous No.1403269]

>>1403228
a silly game, cynic as hell.
>>1403194
wat's the prob with naturally grown food ?
>>1403221
I agree but iRL we are doomed by info we don't understand well. We have to make choice without knowing the first shit about the things... and that's a prob, in my opinion.

[Anonymous No.1403272]

Best thread on /sci/ all week.

Intelligent discussion about a science-related topic. Wow.

[Anonymous No.1403277]

>>1403228

And who then fund the scientists, you neglected to add.

If you want to turn Monsanto into an argument against capitalism... eh. That's like turning cancer-drug-diluters into an argument against the pharmaceutical research industry. It's a bit of a stretch, and a bit of a strawman to base an argument off of.

[Anonymous No.1403325]

>>1403277
Speaking of strawmen, when did I say I was against capitalism? Is patent law one of the foundational institutions of capitalism now?

As for who funds the scientists, it'd be whoever intends to reap the benefits from their work. In the case of GM foods, that'd be farmers and the consuming public.

In more detail: http://hcsoftware.sourceforge.net/jason-rohrer/freeDistribution.html

[коб No.1403338]

>>1401639

more like a bunch or idiots regurgitating scientific opinions

[Anonymous No.1403347]

>>1403233
so we agree...

[Anonymous No.1403354]

>>1403272

Do not jinx it please!

>>1403277

I don't think Monsanto is an argument against capitalism, any more than say Stalin was an argument against anti-gun laws. But I think it does raise an interesting point. To what degree do we allow scientists free reign over their inventions and endeavors, and to what extent do we say "No, you can't test this on people or grow this seed or create that germ until we know more about it?"

And perhaps far more importantly, to whom do we leave the decision? Government officials whose knowledge of the science comes from a PowerPoint presentation? The voting public, too terrified to even look at the evidence half the time and blindly trusting in the first expert on the scene the other half? Research approval boards, more often a political/social body than a scientific one? The scientists themselves, whose bias and competing theories can't be expected to not get in the way?

It's a tough question.

[коб No.1403364]

until we can make this work, we should not fuck up the one that we have.

[Anonymous No.1403372]

>>1403199
>>2.1 Often starving Indians have better nutrition than Americans, because processed food is often deprived of nutrients. Empty calories are empty.

Fucking ignorant hubris! For a start, you're making an unsupported point about 'processed foods' being nutritionally poor, but you clearly know NOTHING about the real situation in the developing world. Children in some of these countries (notably INDIA) die daily from vitamin deficiencies. This simply does not happen in the USA. The sheer self-importance of using such an example is frankly sickening.

[Anonymous No.1403381]

>>1403347

We may, as long as you're not one of the individuals who thinks that because there's a slight chance that antibiotic-resistant germs might evolve, we should all go back to using lye soaps and shriek in horror whenever a hospital wants us to take a course of pills.

Or who thinks that because GM foods might lead to pesticide-immune pests that we should SHUT. DOWN. EVERYTHING. and keep any corporation from daring to profit from modern biogenetic food research.

So yeah, as long as you're being as moderate and balanced as the policy you promote, we're in agreement.

[T No.1403384]

>>1403254

It's not that I "don't know nothing" about genetics, but I do know that genetics =/= chemistry.

We might know what a something is and what that something does, but not how it affects every other thing in a sequence, or after it is added to another huge chemical animal. We're getting there. And yes, we can change many things, it just seems that we choose to change the most profitable ones than what would be most beneficial.

[Anonymous No.1403395]

>>1403354
ethic prob... hard !

[коб No.1403422]

>>1403372

i know that the average person doesnt give a fuck about their diet and doenst get daily required nutrients.

having cataloged daily vitamin intake for the passed month, i know what it takes.

you cant correlate a single vitamin to nutrition.

[Anonymous No.1403440]

>>1403364

Unfortunately, as with a lot of science, we can only get to be so sure without actually pulling the car out of the lot and taking it for a test drive.

I'm not saying we shouldn't buy the insurance on the rental, just that we can't sit forever in the dealer's lot and expect to drive anywhere.

[Anonymous No.1403448]

>>1403372

I think he meant Indians to mean natives of areas like the Amazon, which are still often referred to as "Indians"

He probably should have made that distinction though

[Anonymous No.1403451]

>>1403325
Has this sort of model ever been proven to work?

[Anonymous No.1403457]

>>1403422
I have data to back up my claims. Where is yours? Or are all your opinions based on anecdotes and hearsay you picked up at your anarcho-syndicalist commune?

[Anonymous No.1403460]

>>1403451
http://www.joindiaspora.com/

[Anonymous No.1403471]

>>1403422

But we can, say, notice that rickets is a problem in part of the world, know that rickets is caused by lack of Vitamins 2, 3, and 4, and then GM common (to that area) foods to hold lots of Vitamins 2, 3, and 4. See my point? Forget the people spouting glittering generalities about the all-encompassing good or evil that GM foods can do. Little, narrow, specific applications have real meaning right now for people suffering needlessly.

And yes, we know, if we just ended capitalism and corporate greed and all those other big intangibles we could kill the giant crab that is starvation in the Third World. But instead, we've decided to flip it over on its back and attack the weak points with specifically-targeted GM food applications FOR MASSIVE DAMAGE.

And I'm OK with that.

[коб No.1403476]

>>1403440

we could grow GM in greenhouses and prevent cross pollination, its a precaution, like wearing a seat belt.

[Anonymous No.1403488]

>>1403471

>admixes valid scientific points with enemy crab

thread now officially epic

[коб No.1403492]

>>1403471

or we could put up aeroponic farms to grow non GM foods, so that the farmers don't have to pay every year to have seeds sold to them. Give them the means of growing their own food rather than making them slaves to Monsanto.

[Anonymous No.1403494]

Didn't read this thread but Monsanto is literally the most evil corporation to ever exist in human history.

It's too bad because it's an absolute fact that a scientist working to make GM food is doing the absolute most good for all of humankind that is possible. He feeds the world.

[коб No.1403513]

>>1403494

this man feeds the world, GM intellectual property just usurps wealth.

[Anonymous No.1403528]

>>1403476

But we also put crash dummies without seatbelts into cars, to see what the effects are.

The problem with your "let's keep it safe forever" model is that when the inevitable (and inevitable it is, Mr. Anderson) cross-pollination occurs anyway, and we're wholly unprepared for whatever effects might occur, we're well and truly fucked.

I'm reminded of those who fiercely opposed the introduction of flight until it could be proven safe, until we went ahead and made commercial flights common anyway. And lo and behold, because we learn from each and every time a plane crashes, the safety standards on board airlines today make it around 30,000 times safer than driving.

Make no mistake, people. Accidents are GOING TO HAPPEN and people are GOING TO DIE FROM THEM. Probably lots. But we will learn, we will get better, and we will grow as a species from this science.

[Anonymous No.1403560]

>>1403528

I love the airplane analogy. Especially because there are still tons of people today who are terrified of flying and refuse to do it, even though any 3rd grader can do the calculations himself to discover that it's safer than driving.

Just like it will be with GM foods, I imagine. Although, there is a hell of a lot of money to be made in the business of selling "all-natural and therefore less scary" alternatives to modern foods and medicines. Con mens exist everywhere.

[Anonymous No.1403607]

>>1403325
Looks like I just won an internet argument.

Well, how about that?

[Anonymous No.1403624]

>>1403607

Trying to keep the discussion going by claiming victory?

0/10

And yes, we clearly bought the argument that poor oppressed farmer's consortiums and the public would be capable of providing the millions upon millions of dollars that these scientists currently are fed from the corporations. Just like it worked so perfectly when we asked them to fund NASA, right?

I literally live for those moments when the hot spooge of communal idealism hits the crusty sock of economic realities.

[Anonymous No.1403650]

>>1403624

If this is the crab guy, your analogies are fucking fantastic. Can you please go on a lecture circuit or get on TV or something?

[Anonymous No.1403654]

>>1403624

>hot spooge of communal idealism

eww

[Anonymous No.1403682]

>>1403624
>communal idealism
My face when you keep assuming I'm a communist.

Listen, man, if three million people provide ten dollars you'll have thirty million dollars. The difference between patent-free GM crops and NASA? GM crops would provide an immediate and obvious benefit for the people donating, so it wouldn't be "donating" so much, as people just think of donating as something to do to make themselves feel better, but rather something from which they'd gain.

The fun part? This sort of thing has been tried before and it has succeeded; just look at my link to the diaspora project earlier in the thread. Those people didn't even need a tenth of the money that they got, and yet, they got it.

[Anonymous No.1403730]

Apparently I have to claim victory in order to get you to try to rebut my points, so yeah, I guess I won.

[Anonymous No.1403767]

>>1403682

You sure about that? Because if this thread has been any indication, about half of those public donors you're expecting to give ten dollars will be too uninformed to know to give it, another 15% or so will be actively working to oppose it, and another 15% or so will be shrieking in panic at the thought of anything as "unnatural" as GM foods.

You go ahead and put your faith in your neighbor. I've seen my neighbors, and more of them voted for American Idol than for the American President. I doubt any of them know a fucking thing about genetics. No way I'm trusting them to fund research. Not when we're talking about research that has been so thoroughly villified by people like you. I'll trust the corporation to fund the scientists because at least I know what their ulterior motive is: greed. And their pound of flesh costs less than yours.

[Anonymous No.1403776]

>>1403767

THANK YOU.

[Anonymous No.1403797]

>>1403767

For shits and giggles, and since it's running close to shutdown up here anyway, I just polled my officemates (22 individuals, about gender equal, covering 7 ethnicities and 4 religions).

Exactly 2 of them would give $10 dollars to GM foods. 17 of them claimed to know what GM foods were, and when I explained it to the others, they all said "no way."

There's your trusting fucking benevolent public.

[Anonymous No.1403835]

>>1403682
You're basically talking about a GM charity. There are cancer research charities that operate on much the same lines- solicit donations from the public. They fund less than five percent of research into cancer cures. Corporations fund over sixty.

[Anonymous No.1403869]

>>1403835

And think about how much more real, visible, and immediate cancer is compared to feeding starving people in some country across the ocean.

And he expects that people will freely and willingly donate to it. Hah.

[Anonymous No.1403883]

>>1403797
(2/22) * 300,000,000 (roughly the population of the United States alone, I am ignoring every other westernized country in the world) * 10 = $272,727,272.72

Satisfactory.

[T No.1403899]

>>1403528

See, the problem is that neither the advocates nor the dissidents want to be part of the accidents or deaths.

[Anonymous No.1403915]

>>1401639

OHH SHIT

Input: Genetically Modified Food

Output: General Motors

>http://funnytranslator.com/translation/#disclaimer

[Anonymous No.1403942]

>his is a situation where western science could help the poorest people in the world immensely, and it's being stymied by the people of the West because they want to maintain the parochial image of food that they have constructed for themselves. It's frankly quite tragic

>blaming middle class
>monsanto is going to feed the poor
>my face

[Anonymous No.1403946]

>>1403883
2/22 is the fraction when polled by a coworker face to face as a hypothetical situation. What do you think the percentage will be when you advertise on TV and cold-call people to get them to donate? I don't have figues but I doubt it would be more than about 1% of people willing to donate. Will donations even pay for the marketing costs? I doubt it with an extremely unpopular topic like GM. Groups like Greenpeace have succeeded in polluting the discourse over GM to the point that GM and immoral biotech companies are seen to be an inseparable problem. Just look over this thread and you'll see that attitude is deeply ingrained by the media.

[Anonymous No.1403980]

>>1403883

Less than $300 million for GM food research? No, not satisfactory actually. To say nothing of the bigger issue here.

You're assuming those people would give their money to GM food and not, say, cancer research, or AIDS research, or... you get the point. You're expecting a system that is inherently unstable because it asks more of people than they are willing to give, and people generally give once a year, to whatever the biggest/cutest/loudest cause they can find is, and their consciences are appeased for another Christmas season. There's a reason why when Warren Buffet gave up billions of dollars to charity, everybody made a huge deal out of it on the news. Because that kind of thing has never happened before. And won't again, mind you, until we have another Buffett.

[Anonymous No.1403981]

>>1403942 see >>1403946

GM and Monsanto are not the same thing.

[Anonymous No.1403990]

why instead of using science to adapt our produce to our retarded agricultural practices. WE use science to actually improve our techniques.

Theres a shitload of evidence suggesting that sustainable farming (organic, no pests, no monocultives, etc) is better than industrial farming, in economic and ecologic therms.

GM might be a good idea, in 100 years when we actually know what the hell are we doing, and how the fuck DNA interacts with the environment.

Nowadays, we dont know shit about genetics. All this GM bullshit has being pushed by corporation lobbyists around the world for money. NOT TO FEED THE POOR.

[Anonymous No.1403997]

>>1403980
Well, Bill Gates actually funds the Golden Rice project, among a huge number of other worthy research goals that can't otherwise get funding.

[Anonymous No.1404017]

>>1403990
And I suppose you would have Indians in Mumbai eating artisan cheeses and drinking microbrew beer, too? Grow up. Organic farming is a western social movement, not an improvement in efficiency or yield.

[Anonymous No.1404026]

>>1403990

Can you cite your sources? The reason why there are GM products at all is that your mentioned, natural ways of production cannot produce the quantity of food that we need.

We do know a lot about genetics and we've been altering the genetics of plants and animals for about 10,000 years - just a little more subtly.

[Anonymous No.1404031]

>>1403946

Hell, you don't even have to get that specific. Look at cancer research. All the money spent on advertising, on putting those cute little bald cancer kids alongside "In The Arms Of The Angels" or some similar heartstring-tugger on TV, and what percentage of cancer research donations come from the public? Fucking 3%, that's how much. And most of that is to things like Ronald McDonald House, which while good and kind aren't research firms.

And fuck, GM foods don't even have a balding little starving kid to put up on TV, that bearded fucker with Adopt-A-Waif (you know the one) has that market cornered. What fucking chance does GM food research stand in the eyes of the afraid, deceived, lazy, and to be honest flaky donating public?

Wake up, dude. Maybe in the world of Ayn Rand this kind of "for the greater good" plea would work, but around here the world looks closer to what R. A. Heinlein predicted. And while you're shaking your fist at the wind, people are dying because their governments have drank the anti-GM Kool-aid.

[Anonymous No.1404034]

>>1403946
>>1403946
>>1403981

Sounds like the typical verbatim speech of a biotech lobbyist.

>>1403990
>>1403990

read this.

im not against GM, i just think GMs are not ready to be widely sold. We really do not understand its effects.

It could be like the tobacco in the 30s-60s it could not.
I dont want to risk my health for some huge potato.

And we both know biotech companies interest is not based in feeding the poor.

Right now theres food to feed the entire world. we dont need more food.

[Anonymous No.1404043]

People are opposed to it because they've never really been hungry before. GM crops feed millions of people who would be dead without it.

[Anonymous No.1404084]

>>1404034
>we dont need more food.

yes we do

[Anonymous No.1404087]

GM foods are not evil. Monsanto is.

[Anonymous No.1404120]

>>1404043

A prize for the winner.

"We have enough food to feed the world right now" is the argument used by people whose bellies are full.

Well, them and the odd person who seems to think it'd be easier to reorganize the entire modern Western agricultural model to ensure even distribution than it would be to pay scientists to research ways to pump the 3rd world's meager production full of vitamins and minerals. Ha.

[Anonymous No.1404142]

Hey, everybody, read this:
http://www.amazon.com/Who-Owns-You-Corporate-Philosophy/dp/1405187301/

[Anonymous No.1404168]

>>1404142

Hey everybody! Put away those logical thoughts and read my screed composed of quotes taken out of context and fearmongering! I swear, I'm being intellectually honest! Honest!

[Anonymous No.1404174]

>>1402174

we can only feed the world because we already cultivated plants. We selected them for to be as we needed them to be.
This wasn't a natural process either and although there may be many examples where breeding has caused great harms you can not deny that it had great benefits too.

We just need to be wise and careful and then all technology (how dangerous it may be in the wrong hands) can be used for the greater good.

[Anonymous No.1404186]

>>1404017
>>1404026

http://oregonstate.edu/instruct/bi430-fs430/Documents-2004/7B-MIN%20TILL%20AG/Sustainable%20Agr%C3%8
9hn%20Reganold.pdf.

Theres way more you can get from Google scholar.

The reason why we are not getting the same yields anymore. is because the fertilizers we are using are fucking up the fields. pests are more resistant to pesticides. and we urgue to put a solution to that

its EITHER sustainable agriculture vs GMs with standard practices.
Wheat and Corn and Soy are the main targets of GMs and no coincidence they are also subsided in America is one of the reasons why its cheaper than sustainable agriculture. (there are more reasons but are out of the question)

fucking Corn/Soy/Wheat is used for pretty much everything

- As food for livestock. - proven also to be a TERRIBLE IDEA, including economic.
- High fructose corn syrup - a universal sweeter used in a ton of products that, this syrup is one of the reasons why America is so fat.
Hydrogenated Corn/Soy Oil - Trans fat.. no more info required i hope.
Refined white flour . etc

believe me, biotech scientists may be interested in feeding the poor. but GMs are not a solution.

the fact of the mater is that most of the GM products will be used for all the mentioned above not feeding african kids.

[Anonymous No.1404195]

>>1404174
>This wasn't a natural process
Humans are as natural as anything else in the universe

[Anonymous No.1404237]

>>1404186

GM supporter status
[ ] NOT TOLD
[ X ] TOLD

[Anonymous No.1404254]

>>1404186
ITT people confuse the issue of GM with every single other pet hatred of theirs even tangentially related to the issue:

>GM and Monsanto are the same thing
>GM and protectionist crop subsidies are the same thing
>GM and poor quality processed food are the same thing
>GM and capitalism are the same thing
>GM and abortion are the same thing

[Anonymous No.1404285]

>>1404254
>>1404254
if you read my other posts you would realize im not against GM

Also, i made those connections just to prove how GMs are been actually used or intended to be used. A counter-argument against the "GM will feed the poor" argument.

[Anonymous No.1404293]

>>1404195
I love you.

I fucking hate how anything we do is 'unnatural'.

[Anonymous No.1404307]

>>1404285
>A counter-argument against the "GM will feed the poor" argument.

The 'GM will feed the poor' argument has a lot going for it. Anyway, you're confusing traditional chemical-intensive farming with GM. 'Sustainable' agriculture relies on minimal use of pesticides etc, and the careful choice of crops to minimise damage to the land. Why can GM crops not fit in this picture? If I was to breed a variety of rice to require no pesticides and be less intensive for the soil, surely that would help bring about the 'sustainable' farming revolution that you seem to want so much?

[Anonymous No.1404325]

>>1404293
This kind of self-hatred is pretty much a western, Judaeo-Christian self-hatred. You don't encounter it in asian cultures. What's unnatural about plastics or MSG? Nothing; they're made from the same basic stuff as rafia umbrella stands or locally-made hedgerow wine. When people say 'unnatural' they don't really mean that; what they mean is 'new'.

[Anonymous No.1404348]

>>1404307
>>1404307
>If I was to breed a variety of rice to require no pesticides

pests activity doesn't relate with the genetics of the product.

the pest resistant GMs that are out there now require the use of pesticide/herbicide. the only "good" thing is that this GM crop resist the chemical.

So u get pesticide/herbicides anyway. I agree that GMs may be really useful for sustainable agriculture. the truth is that right now, we really dont know what effect does the altered genetics of this crops have on us. and yet we are using shamelessly using them.

[Anonymous No.1404388]

>>1404348
>pests activity doesn't relate with the genetics of the product.

It actually does. Some plants secrete chemicals that discourage
pests from feeding on them; besides the majority of crop spoilage is from viruses and molds, which you can certainly engineer resistance against.

>we really dont know what effect does the altered genetics of this crops have on us

You make it sound like we'll start to grow rice in our stomachs or the triffids will attack. If we engineer a plant to make poison then it's obviously not going to be sold. When you eat a plant everything inside it is broken down into sugars. How could it possibly harm you at that point?

[Anonymous No.1404446]

>>1404388

A good example is polyphenols, which appear to inhibit pests eating the plant. Coincidentally, they are also very very good for your health

[Anonymous No.1404510]

Despite environmentalists usually belonging to the bleeding hearts, their views are almost exclusively conservative, in particular on the topic of GM food.

[Anonymous No.1404594]

>>1401639
Because of DERP HERP MY FOOD HAS GENES EWW

BTW, some years ago I heard we already had the capability to gamma irradiate our food for sterilization extending it's shelf life to ridiculous lenghts but the public didn't like the idea because it had radiation :C, how much of this is true?

[Anonymous No.1404616]

you can feed pulverized niggers or this GM bullshit just put it away from my table.

[Anonymous No.1404622]

>>1403990
>when we actually know what the hell are we doing, and how the fuck DNA interacts with the environment.
>how the fuck DNA interacts with the environment

Oh I do so hope you're trolling motherfucker.

[Anonymous No.1404661]

>>1404594
Magical thinking about contamination is a common human thought pattern.

>if it's come into contact with radiation, it must be bad
>if it's associated with Monsanto, it must be bad
>this die rolled a six, it must be lucky

[Anonymous No.1404745]

>>1404622
the effect of metilation and dna folding by histones and its effects on the actual DNA transcription is poorly understood.

lol im being trolled hard time.

[Anonymous No.1404772]

AS A PROFESSIONAL ENGINEERING FAGGOT, I CAN SAY THAT GAY ENGINEERS WANT GM

[Anonymous No.1404775]

>>1404661
lol please tell what a positive thing for middle and working class people, monsanto had accomplished.


problem about food is that the lay public know very little or nothing about it. so alot of them eat regular shit meal.

[Anonymous No.1404795]

>>1404622
>>1404622
epigenetics

stop the trolling.

[Anonymous No.1404874]

bump

[Anonymous No.1404954]

>>1404348

"We don't know, blah blah"

Not a good argument. FUD based in ignorance. Plenty of the "natural" foods that we eat now have never been tested to the extent that GM foods are. Plenty of "chemicals" in natural foods (caffeine, for example) evolved as a form of natural pest control. GM products use these sorts of things, they're not just spontaneously make dioxin when you look at them funny.

[Anonymous No.1404981]

>>1404775

Farmers are both middle class and work.

[Anonymous No.1405052]

OK OK OK
GM ARE BAD AND SHIT
But what causes this, what causes the high risk of cancer, and sterility and shit, what is wrong with my potato that will kill me?

Seriously, how is this caused, are there any studies that have found what change in the plant made this happen?

[Anonymous No.1405105]

>>1403083
SHOCKING NEWS: SCIENTISTS ARE ALL MONEYGRABBING JEWS.

[Anonymous No.1405130]

>>1405052

It's because of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SzqpVgwxKU

[Anonymous No.1405197]

JEWS = FIREWOOD

[Anonymous No.1405253]

1. buy bootleg monsanto seeds
2. plant them
3. get more and larger crops
4. monsanto catches you
5. claim their seeds must have just spread into you crops
6. ???
7. profit

inb4 poor people are telling the truth

[Anonymous No.1405338]

>>1403797
>Implying idiot people such as your coworkers shouldn't be educated forcefully

Seriously, going to a fucking bar costs more and is arguably useless.

[Anonymous No.1405341]

>>1403869
>What are taxes

At least a well run government won't be that fucking stupid.

[Anonymous No.1405359]

>>1405253
They'll sue your ass anyway.

[Anonymous No.1406048]

>>1403194

Actually, I'm a traveler, I've been an immigrant (at times illegally) in many countries and had many types of foods that probably won't be around much longer.

[Anonymous No.1406653]

>>1405338

>educated forcefully

..,sigh

Did I mention I come from Kansas? The America inside America? The state where we not too long ago had to have some genius invent a pasta-based religious allegory to shame a board of education into not giving equal time to creationists?

I motherfucking dare you to educate a person against their will. Fuck, I'd donate to that over GM foods and cancer.

And while just taxing them for it seems like a good idea at first, think about how many different scientific projects are going to vie for that money. And I guarantee you it'll be the big-name ones that suck that teat dry. Cancer, AIDS, diabetes, and clean energy will get it long before things like GM foods or stem cell research.

Science is not a democracy, and that's for a reason. Democracies rely on the averaged opinion (and thus, education) of the masses. Science requires a higher standard than that.

Here's a fun game to play before you go to sleep tonight. Picture in your mind an average person. Just someone you could describe as completely average in every way. An average neighbor, perhaps. Think about how stupid that man is on most subjects that don't immediately concern him.

Now consider that statistically, 50% of the people in the world are even stupider than that. Sweet dreams.

[Anonymous No.1406672]

I want my food in a pill form, how do we not have thats shit?
What the fuck?
What has science done?
Where are my flying cars?

[Anonymous No.1407307]

asdfad