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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/sci/ - Science & Math

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1337483 No.1337483 [Reply] [Original]

has 4chan discussed this already?

SoS - The case for mars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ5sWfhkpE0

I think the argument for going to Mars ASAP is a strong one. Don't you think so too?

>> No.1337485

No, because what the fuck are we going to do there?

The very first thing we need to do is establish space infrastructure. Refueling depots, space habitats, power stations, factories and smelters. When we've got that shit done, THEN we can start to think about sending people out to Mars or Titan or whatever the fuck.

>> No.1337490

Yeah sure, let's go to Mars.

>> No.1337491

SoS, amazing.

>> No.1337496

We'll have mars crawling with unmanned drones long before the first human even gets there, at which point it'll be just a symbolic act.

>> No.1337502

>>1337485
See this is what I see time and again, and I don't get.

Fucking retards like you who don't know shit spouting that rubbish.

NASA Design Reference mission. Straight manned mission to Mars, within NASA's current budget and in a few years.

>> No.1337510

Obama quote:

>>By the mid-2030s, I believe we can send humans to orbit Mars and return them safely to Earth. And a landing on Mars will follow. And I expect to be around to see it.

>> No.1337511

>>1337485
Maybe you should listen to Zubrin explain why that's a stupid idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm34Muv6Lsg

>> No.1337514

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Mars_Mission#Orion_Mars_mission

>> No.1337551

>>1337502
And what the hell are they going to do there? Pick up a few rocks? Maybe do a little geology?

Hey I bet when they get home they could do a song and dance routine!

Science shouldn't be about entertainment, and that's all a manned mission to Mars is right now. Because we don't have the infrastructure in place to do anything meaningful.

>>1337511
How about you link to the part in particular where he outlines why building infrastructure is a stupid idea, and going to mars for some hairbrained photo-op is a better idea. Because I'm not going to watch an hour long video to find it myself.

>> No.1337556
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1337556

I say we get into space first. The only way to get to Mars currently is to build a fuckoff huge rocket and waste thousands of times your own weight in fuel getting off of Earth. We need launch loops, space fountains, or even a simple magnetic cannon to get shit into orbit easily.

Personally I wonder why we're still dicking around with Mars. We've put umpteen rovers and probes on it's surface, yet people still want to explore it further. Why not try to build a flying probe on Venus or something, some kind of new and exiting technical challenge, rather than messing around with The Moon 2.0?

>> No.1337561

>>1337551
How about you actually watch it instead of being a lazy ass with retarded opinions?

>> No.1337564

>>1337556
Titan, Enceladus, Europa, all contain extremely interesting atmospheres and geology that we know so little about, and each of them might even harbour life.

Yet here we are, dicking around with Mars. It's ingrained within popular culture - people are adamant we go there. What for? They don't know, but we gotta go there!

>> No.1337577

>>1337551
>>we should go to the new world

>And what the hell are they going to do there? Pick up a few rocks? Maybe kill some native faggots?

>Hey I bet when they get home they could do a song and dance routine!

>Exploration shouldn't be about entertainment, and that's all a colony in the new world would be right now. Because we don't have the infrastructure in place to do anything meaningful.

>> No.1337583
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1337583

>>1337551
>implying populating other worlds isn't meaningful

>> No.1337590

The main issue is getting people there.

Most people on the ISS feel like shit due to zero gravity. They've only been there for 6 months. It takes something like 4 years to get to Mars with our current propulsion method.

Artificial gravity needs to be on top on the list of getting man to Mars.

>> No.1337596

>>1337583
>implying that's what is going to happen

Protip: A Mission to mars is going to be a repeat of the Lunar missions unless we get some actual infrastructure in place first.

We're not going to be building ANY colonies until we've got the factories, fuel depots and power plants necessary to make it feasible. We need to focus on SPACE, not Mars.

The current gameplan is doing just that, by the way. Missions to NEO's and hopefully capitalization of space-based resources. We're developing the technology that would GET us to Mars in the future.

>> No.1337599

>>1337596
Ever heard of Mars to Stay?

>> No.1337601

>>1337590
WRONG. More bullshit from idiots.

We go to Mars and inspire generations and generations of new scientists, secure our future in space. Try to have a bit of vision.

I know it's hard being aspie fucks but realise that not everything is done because it just has cold hard immediate value.

>> No.1337610

>>1337577

>Enceladus
>Europa
>Atmospheres

wat?

>> No.1337615

>>1337601
>We go to Mars and inspire generations and generations of new scientists

Yeah. Just like those lunar missions inspired generations and generations of scientists and jump-started our space economy.

OH WAIT

Maybe a few people were inspired. But we've done DICK ALL FOR THE PAST 60 YEARS. We aren't even out of our gravitational well yet.

You're an idiot who's telling us we need to build the train before we've built the tracks.

It doesn't fucking work that way. Great, you go to Mars, you build that train. What now? It's useless, there's no infrastructure. You can't do anything.

That's why we need to drop this stupid focus on Mars and get to work on improving our space infrastructure to the point that going to Mars becomes meaningful, instead of a PR stunt.

>> No.1337616

>>1337601

>We go to Mars and inspire generations and generations of new scientists, secure our future in space.

Because getting to the Moon has inspired generations and generations, hasn't it? That's why, 40 years on nobody cares about space anymore.

>> No.1337618

>>1337610

>and geology

>> No.1337625

>>1337615
>But we've done DICK ALL FOR THE PAST 60 YEARS.

Maybe because funding was cut in order to give money to the space shuttle program. OH SNAP!

The original follow up to the Apollo Program was to build a base on the Moon and get man on Mars. Instead they deciced to throw money exactly at the same kind of crap you are proposing now.

Good work on being part of the problem.

>> No.1337634

Having all your eggs in one basket is retarded. We need to find some practical way to escape Earth's gravitational well to make space travel cheaper (if Nanotechnology continues improving at the rate it has been, an orbital elevation unit), but I think it would be possible to have a lunar colony prior to that time. Our urgency to get into space is mal-placed and ignorant to our own destructive capacity. Colonization of other worlds is immortality as a species.

>> No.1337715
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1337715

>>1337615
INFRASTRUCTURE!!

>> No.1337795

We have never, ever, explored without a cause to do so. The notion that we ever had motivation to do this for it's own sake is contrary to historical fact.

We discovered the new world because the 1st world was looking for spice and trade routes. We landed on the moon to show up a super power that threatened to destroy us.

We'll make it back out into space, but only if there's something in it for us. And no, scientific knowledge doesn't count.

Maybe if it was full of some good shit, like Coca Cola, we would be traveling at warp speeds right now. Who knows?

>> No.1337802

Holy shit, I work for Zubrin

>> No.1337811

First thing we need to do is get rid of current problems: Energy, wars, poverty, diseases, religion,Illiteracy etc.
We need to take care of current shit before starting making more shit.

>> No.1337836

>>1337802
Seriously?

>> No.1337842

>>1337836
Yeah, Pioneer Astronautics here in Lakewood, CO

>> No.1337867

>>1337811

You'll never get rid of all the current problems that plague the world. The people on top need to keep pushing up, rather then stooping down to try and achieve mediocrity.

Besides, a lot of those problems are impossible to solve. You'll never remove religion, or get it at a level where all religions are happy to let everyone else believe what they want. As long as there's more than one country, people are going to be fighting wars.

>> No.1337880
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1337880

>>1337811
>Energy, wars, poverty, diseases, religion,Illiteracy etc
>Energy
Solar, Wind, Geothermal
>Wars
Wars are waged over scarce resources or profitable resources. So I dunno, make robots that make everything else?
>Poverty
See wars
>diseases
Nanobots in bloodstream kthanks
>Religion
I don't want to wait till the 2400's
>illiteracy
See wars and poverty

>> No.1337887

>>1337811
>>Energy
Get us into space and out to the asteroid belt. Solar power will be necessity and we'll probably get around to fusion anyway.

>>wars
You won't end humanity's favorite pastime.

>>poverty
So long as we have an economic system, poverty will never disappear.

>>diseases
Are part and parcel with being organic beings. Hell even our computers aren't immune.

>>religion
There will always be some superstitious nutbag pushing something.

>>Illiteracy
Anyone not suffering from poverty won't have this issue.

>> No.1337892

>>1337880

>Solar, Wind, Geothermal

All it takes is a magical wave of your hand and poof! All energy is clean and renewable.

>> No.1337895

>>1337892
Actually, yes, it is like that. Not my fucking fault no investors feel like seriously going into those energy types.
Do we have the resources? Yes.
Do we have the technology? Yes.
Do we have the money? yes, but we don't want to spend it on that.

>> No.1337903

>>1337895
The perils of letting incompetent financiers run the world. Instead of pushing for an achievable goal they pursue needless booms and busts, scraping wealth off the bulges.

>> No.1337910

>>1337895

So where do you build this shit? You've got a lot of NIMBY to deal with if you want to power the whole world.

>> No.1337923

>>1337910
In space!

Beam it down to the planet via microwaves, and distribute it to major population centers using superconducting trunks.

You can skip the beaming it down if you go fusion.

>> No.1337935

>>1337923

But I thought the point was that that we shouldn't be concentrating on space infrastructure until we've solved our energy problems!

>> No.1337959

>>1337903
Well summarized.

>> No.1337966

>>1337935
Space infrastructure will soon become essential to resolving our energy problems.

If you have effectively infinite solar energy, it can become cheaper to manufacture hydrocarbons than to drill for them.

Also, the one who suggested we avoid investing in space is a fucking tool.

>> No.1337981

>>1337483
Goddamnit symphony of science is fucking shitty and cheesy.

They should not be allowed to use the word "science", goddamnit.

I should have majored in engineering, I prefer to be associated to sucking cocks over something like that shitty video.

>> No.1338010

go because we can

>> No.1338073

>>1337615
>It doesn't fucking work that way.
Look at the entire history of exploration of the planet Earth and say that again you moron.

>> No.1338097

I really recommend you watch all of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mm34Muv6Lsg

It refutes all your bullshit claims about infrastructure.

>> No.1338107

>>1338097

Meet: >>1337511

>> No.1338126

>>1337795
So Shackleton went to Antarctica for, what, the rich, fertile soil?

>> No.1338156

>>1338126
For personal profit you stupid faggot.

>> No.1338161

>>1337483
\am I the only one who sees a boob here?

>> No.1338276

>>1338161
I see it now

>> No.1338334

lets go!!!!!!!!!!!

>> No.1339393

The strongest motivation for going to Mars was colonization. The first nation to get there can have the rights to own it. But first, someone must get there and set up camp...

>> No.1339406

>>1339393
>Implying a Mars colony would bring any measurable benefit to it's terrestrial sponsor.
Disregard Mars, pursue asteroids

>> No.1341367

looks like a boob to me

>> No.1342557

>>1339406
>Disregard Mars, pursue asteroids

Why? Can you elaborate?

>> No.1342561

>>1339393
Wtf? I never heard of that and I certainly hope this is bullshit.

>> No.1342747

>>1342561
>>1339393
> Wtf? I never heard of that and I certainly hope this is bullshit.

How can you not know about plans and ideas for colonization? Are you just deliberately stupid? I hope you just forgot for a few moments...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_Mars

>> No.1342857

Moon base first.

>> No.1342919

mars is small time, fuck that

TITAN & EUROPA BITCHES

>> No.1342964
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1342964

>>1342557
You just fought your way out of a gravity well, why drop down into another less habitable one? Mine asteroids, take advantage of microgravity and 24/7 direct sunlight to build O'Neill cylinders with earth like gravity and solar cycles, send stuff around the solar system and build settlements everywhere.
Can be done with 70's era technology too.

>> No.1342977

Why did we need to go to the moon? Wasn't that just an engineering dick contest?

>> No.1343024

>>1342977
Yes.

The Russian space program, sputnik in particular was a slap in the face to Americans, whom up until then considered themselves to be the masters of technology in the world, and Russia to be full of backwoods hicks and farmers.

Next thing you know, Russia's put a satellite into orbit around the Earth, and they say they want to go to the moon? Holy shit.

Space race was part of the cold war, which is why it even happened at all.

>> No.1343037

Why can't all our nations just be Space Friends? :(

>> No.1343058

>>1339393
>The strongest motivation for going to Mars was colonization. The first nation to get there can have the rights to own it. But first, someone must get there and set up camp...

Yeah, just like how the first nation to the moon owns it?

You people are so deluded it isn't even funny.

You know who's going to rule space? The SOB who's got control of asteroids and is sitting at the top of your gravity well. What's the US going to do if China starts an asteroid mining program, and then threatens to smash several 1km wide asteroids into the states if we don't do what they ask? There's enough asteroids out there that they could just sit back and throw one after another at us, and even 1 for 1 against our nukes they'd still win, and that without having to use any nuclear weapons of their own.

And if we nuke china - so what? They own the entire solar system, because idiots like you think we need to ignore everything else out there and focus solely on setting up a useless mars colony.

>> No.1343092

>>1343024
The space race was mostly a dick size contest, but Sputnik was actually a scary thing. They thought they would soon be able to launch nukes and shit from space or something like that. It was an arms race in space.

>> No.1343096

>>1343058
YOU DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT SCIENCE!

FUCK OFF BACK TO /k/!

>> No.1343100

>>1343058
If they launch space rocks at us, we launch nukes at their country for MAD.

>> No.1343103

>>1343058
>>1343024

So, I see you like to run and hide when people make good arguments, then come back at a later time once they are gone?

>> No.1343125

>>1343103
Or I had other things to do?

Nobody made any good arguments for the colonization of Mars.

I'm trying to lay it out as clearly as I can to you guys, that our first steps off this rock need to be improving space infrastructure related to building things in space, and fueling spacecraft in space, and designing spacecraft and engines for moving through space.

NOT on some stupid populist idea that we should land on Mars and plant a flag for a few trillion dollars.

We can create habitats out of mined-out asteroids. We can build space stations, satellites and spacecraft with the metals that have been mined, we can jumpstart an economy in space that doesn't require billions and trillions from the government to maintain itself as the private industry takes over, and THEN we can consider going to Mars.

But no, you people want a repeat of the Apollo missions.

>> No.1344490

OP here.. thanks for the many good points made!

>>1343125
> improving space infrastructure
> NOT on some stupid populist idea that we should land on Mars and plant a flag for a few trillion dollars.

>>1343058
> an asteroid mining program

>>1342964
> O'Neill cylinders

... just to name a few
Thanks~

>> No.1345548

>>1343058
>>1339393
You know guys that the Outer Space Treaty forbid any country to claim property on anything in space ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty#Responsibility_for_activities_in_space

China ratified it too.

>> No.1345710

>>1344490
Find a copy of "the high frontier" it’s a little dated due to being written in 79, mostly in that it assumed that the shuttle was really about lowering cost, but otherwise very good at discussing the merits of leaving the "space is other planets" model and making use of actual space.