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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1308835 No.1308835 [Reply] [Original]

What does /sci/ think of a full central nervous system and head transplant for a human?

I made a thread a week or two ago about Dr. Robert White's successful head transplants in the rhesus monkey, IIRC the monkeys in his later experiments were capable of breathing on their own, and could survive indefinitely with immunosuppressive therapy.

The issue of paralysis wouldn't be there in a full CNS transplant, as the PNS can regrow (just as in limb transplant).

>> No.1308842

organ rejection

>> No.1308841

Helll no. As soon as you make it, rich people will abuse it.

And who wants to live in a world with Donald Trump for ANOTHER lifetime?

>> No.1308860

>>1308842
Immunosuppressive therapy, works fine for limb transplants and other organs.

The brain and spinal cord is much less prone to rejection, the head is basically the same as a limb from a transplant point of view.

Also I suppose they could use the pittsburgh protocol in reverse to further prevent rejection.

>> No.1308865

A full central nervous system seems a bit far fetched, since you must transplant the entire spinal cord.
But it could be possible, don't see any reason why not, that's if all the nerves regrow like they are supposed to.

>> No.1308870

>>1308841
>rich people

That's a problem with the system created by humans, not with the science.

>> No.1308890

>>1308865
Any reason to think the PNS would not regrow?

The first full leg transplant is scheduled to happen some time very soon, and full arms have been done in the past, with full nerve regrowth from the shoulder.

Is it different if the nerves are severed just past the spinal cord? If so, how about transplanting several cm of all major nerves past the spinal cord?

>> No.1308965

I think it's possible, especially if stem cells are used to regrow nerve tissue (assuming that's possible), but I think transplants in general are bound to fall in to disuse, at least in the way we are used to thinking about it

Studies on regrowing limbs/organs etc, regenerative medicine, seem to indicate that humans can do this as well but we just need to figure out how to turn it on. (infants/fetuses will regrow fingers to a much greater degree than an adult will, for example)

With the use of stem cells and stimulating regrowth, it seems like, ultimately, we'll be seeding someone's limb to simply regrow the limb or organ rather than transplanting one from a dead person.

Either that or using your own cells to regrow your limb in the lab first and then transplant it..

P.S. Personally I would call it more of a full body-minus-the-CNS transplant, as the CNS is the person and the body is the "body part", usually the body part is what is being transplanted, right?

>> No.1309028

>>1308965
Yeah I'd agree with the terminology. It sort of depends on which point of view you look it.

The thing is the peripheral nervous system regrows by itself in almost all cases, no stem cells needed.

So this is theoretically something that could be attempted tomorrow, no stem cells needed. Only a talented surgical team and the right immunosuppressive drugs.

>> No.1309088

Just a thought..

I'm pretty sure you would have to relearn every single motor function from your head down just the same as if your spinal cord had been injured in an accident of some kind

>> No.1309125

>>1309088
No, if it's a complete central nervous system transplant the spinal cord would also be transplanted, and if the nerves connect where they should you shouldn't have any problem at all walking and stuff.
That's assuming you get transplanted into a human with two hands and two legs.

>> No.1309218

>>1309125
>>1309088
Afaik neither exactly.

Closer to >>1309088

Although people with PNS damage frequently do have to relearn a lot of fine motor skills, and with severe damage sometimes never regain full skills. Even when the nerve regrows fully (which means they are capable of regaining full function, this happens fairly frequently, or at least close to it), the motor nerves frequently connect to different muscle fiber types, and fine motor control needs to be relearned. As a result people tend to be somewhat uncoordinated until they can relearn.

>> No.1309474

bump?

>> No.1309488

the pns does not always regenerate and not always 100% and not immediately. plus it would take probably over 100 hours of surgery because there are so many nerve endings. also the patients would need to be very similarly proportioned. physio fag here

>> No.1309511

>he issue of paralysis wouldn't be there in a full CNS transplant

wouldn't it be easier to work on stem cell therapies to regrow the damaged neurons and be way more accepted?

>> No.1309541

>>1309488
Interesting, I was aware of most of those points, but isn't that the same as any transplant? Minus the sheer magnitude.

>> No.1309568
File: 105 KB, 764x573, Jensen_augs_noshades.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1309568

I would rather have cybernetics...

>> No.1309597

>>1309568
>>1309511
Problem with both of these is uncertain future technology, a full CNS transplant is just "sewing meat together".

>> No.1309621

>>1309597
> just "sewing meat together"

right, just simple as that

>> No.1309631

>>1309597
I am still hoping and waiting that I will
someday get my cybernetic implants. >.<

>> No.1309655

>>1309621
lol'd

obviously that doesn't even scratch the surface of what would be required, but it is accurate from the point of view that there is no process in this surgery that hasn't been done (cooling CNS, microsurgery, multiple tissue alotransplantation, etc)

>> No.1309667

Could be interesting.

Doesn't sound very feasible (due to human participation) given the scale of the surgery.

>> No.1309793

>>1309631
Me too. Me too... : (

>> No.1311583

Bump

>> No.1311650

I just don't see the point if we will have prosthetics that can replace limbs.

We currently have prosthetic arms and such that people use to grab objects, and almost live a normal life. What says that in 20 years we won't have prosthetics that are superior to our OEM limbs?

>> No.1311671

>>1311650
The idea would be more for multiple organ failure, or terminal cancer that hasn't yet spread to the CNS.

>> No.1312166

so will the PNS regrow if it is cut off right after the spinal cord?

>> No.1312186

Well, even a hand transplant yields only about 50% function, so I seriously question whether a full CNS transplant would leave you with enough PNS function to ever make it worthwhile. That's leaving aside the fact that a hand transplant is an 8 to 12 hour operation, so imagine reconnecting all the fiddly little nerve bundles coming out of the spinal column.

>> No.1312199

In the future they will grow designer human bodies for people who want CNS transplants.
Why do you care about donald trump anyways most people are massive douchebags he is just a famous version.
>>1308841

>> No.1312245

Mmm.

I think I'd want a chimp body, so I could go fuck around in trees.

I like trees.

>> No.1312257

>>1312186
Good point, but some hand transplants have been really successful though http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10080/1044488-114.stm

I suppose it would still be better to have fairly poor and awkward muscle control than be dead though.

>> No.1312351

>>1312257

That is impressive progressive, I must admit.

>> No.1312639

bump

>> No.1313817

>>1311650
>. What says that in 20 years we won't have prosthetics that are superior to our OEM limbs?
[See: >>1309568] Hell ya! When this
happens, I am getting my crappy limbs
replaced (the current ones are always
in pain). I would also like a synthetic
spinal plate for my partial missing one.
After already having shit taken out
of my body (goddamn you, traitorous
appendix!); and getting over that strange
empty feeling, I look forward to getting
functional replacements.

>> No.1313866

>>1309568
>>1313817

Bump for Transhumanism!

>> No.1314635

>>1313866
Seconded

>>1313817
Pretty much agree, but this surgery can theoretically be done tomorrow. See >>1309028

>> No.1314820

bump

>> No.1315434

bump

>> No.1315594

Bump!

>> No.1315601

Humans are a little more complex than a rhesus monkey. plus ethics etc etc.

>> No.1315734

>>1315601
Ethics are what prevented a head transplant from happening over the last 30 years.

White stated that by the time he had done several on live monkeys and human cadavers, he was ready to try one on a live person if he had the funds.

>> No.1315832

>>1315734
and IMO it should be attempted

IMO ethics shouldn't prevent someone with terminal cancer the chance to live on for some time with a new abdomen and limbs

>> No.1315938

bamp

>> No.1316080

>>1315832
I conquer. IMO, ethics has no
place in reality. Nature is cruel and these
people need to realize that.

>> No.1316085

>>1316080
Well I personally draw the line at non-enesphalectomized human animal hybrids past the fetal stage.

I think that is one place we shouldn't go, at least any time soon.

*Anything* in medicine, go for it IMO.

>> No.1316088

and dont forget, feed your head, feed your head.

>> No.1316093

>>1308833
ｑUＩＴ_ａＴTＡcKｉＮG ＡＮd CloWnＩng ｗwW.ａnＯn_Ｘ_x ｘ
Ｘ_X_x TＡlK.Sｅ DＩRｅＣｔlＹ_ＢRＯ (ｒEＭＯvｅ ＡＬl_x)
t hjkluygz galdjefrszpjkcpt ivkgkzrpkw xy

>> No.1316094

By the time you're able to do this your life would be extended enough to not think of this procedure.

>> No.1316102

>>1316094
A head transplant was possible 38 years ago.

A full CNS transplant is probably possible, but anything like this has been huge taboo since White's experiments went public, and all interest has evaporated.

>> No.1316107

I...I majored in political science ;_;

>> No.1316119

>>1316102
Nothing should get in the way of transhumanism. This is the future of humanity
after all!

>> No.1316170

>>1308835
>doctors have no problems operating on the spine.
but seriously, touching the spine is a gamble which is why its so well guarded. you want to detach it and the reconnect it. ha

>> No.1316195

Limb implants are limb implants, dealing with the brain and spinal column delves into the field of neurology.
Neurology is by far the least understood medical field, and yet some of you people are talking about this like it's as simple as planting a tree in your yard.

>> No.1316199

>>1316170
It's well guarded for everyone
see: >>1313817


it

>> No.1316219

"To be more than human, is to be human". -Unknown

>> No.1318104

Bump

>> No.1318491

>>1316170
this operation would obviously have a huge risk of paralysis or death, but when your preforming it on someone who is about to die of multiple organ failure, you don't have much to loose

>> No.1318533

QUｉt ＡtＴaｃＫｉnG_ANＤ ｃlＯＷｎＩＮＧ_ｗＷＷ.AｎoN x_ｘ ｘ
Ｘ_x_X ＴａLｋ.Ｓe_ＤＩrｅＣTLｙ ｂＲO (remoVE_ＡＬl_x)
hudzxk muifa fjedks g gyuhwhpjzia orifvje

>> No.1318607

>>1318491
Well... you mad bro?

Performing a 100+hour procedure on one single patient wich most likely takes up 10-20 extremely qualified medical staff. How many other terminally ill people could this team have saved with those man-hours better used? Protip: A LOT.

>> No.1318634

>>1318607
>terminally ill
>saved

WHAT, WHAT?

>> No.1319481

bump

>> No.1320961

>>1319481
again

>> No.1321448
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1321448

Could it be done: probably
Could it result in a possible zombie apocalypse: more than likely

I would rather be cyberized, but that's a personal preference. If you prefer a meat'n'potatoes transplant, be my guest. But why would you want to? Seriously. And where would the donor body come from, assuming yours is trashed and you're not trading.

Also, the issue of memories comes up. We're assuming that all memories are housed....somewhere....in the brain. But there has been speculation (that I personally don't agree with, it was a history channel special I beleive so the science is questionable) that memories can be held outside of the CNS. Meaning that if you transplant your "self" into a donor body, you may end up with some memories from the previous owner. Creepy huh?

>> No.1321546

>>1321448
The donor would obviously be a beating heart cadaver, a person left brain dead by trauma or hypoxia, with the lower body fully intact and functioning. They are generally used for organ donation, but they should be perfectly suitable for this.

Interesting about the memories though! Although I agree 100%, it is highly improbable at best that memories are stored outside the CNS, especially given that just about every other part of the body has either been amputated or transplanted, with no credible reports of changes in consciousness directly related to removal or transplant of tissue.

>> No.1321555

>>1321546
Look man, how old are you and what do you study?

>> No.1322237

>>1321555
19 and electrical engineering.

I have the habit of reading medical texts in all my free time.

>> No.1322265

>>1322237
Hey, same age here ;D
Anyway, don't you think you're going in this stuff a little but too naive/impulsive, I mean ... we're talking about serious anatomical problem here.
I've read the thread from last time (parts of it) and I really don't understand what your obsession is with it.
The PNS can only regrow to a certain extent and even then, the connection has to be made from the brain to the PNS. I don't think you know howmuch shit the brain regulates and is connected to.

>> No.1322290
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1322290

What about PINGAS transplants?

>> No.1322293

Ha!

>> No.1322295

The biology in this thread is very wrong. It's not as if you can just drop a spinal column in and expect the nerve bundles to just reattach to the spinal cord. You made that claim, you need to cite it.

>> No.1322318

>>1322295
I assumed it would the same as a limb transplant?

>>1322265
I don't get out enough.

>> No.1323015

hory shit bump

>> No.1323258

That would be recockufuck.

>> No.1323264

>>1322265
>Anyway, don't you think you're going in this stuff a little but too naive/impulsive, I mean ... we're talking about serious anatomical problem here.

He does this shit all the time, with everything..

>> No.1323319

fucking bump.

do want more of this thread

>> No.1323361

man's head onto a womans body, he finally gets to experience multiple orgasms

>> No.1323370
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1323370

>>1308835
>PNS can regrow
>Penis can regrow

>> No.1323373

How did he get the animals to breathe and shit? ie how did he connect the nerves and shit I didn't think that was possible? Or is it..

>> No.1323422

this sounds... painful

>> No.1323434

There are better ways to live forever.

>> No.1323450

Why don't limbs regrow when they are cut off?

>> No.1323471

>>1323450
Genetic I think.
I imagine our genetics 'decided' that it'd require too much bodily resources to regenerate a limb (lots of healing and a lot of food intake to regenerate that limb) so it doesn't do it? Who knows.

>> No.1324963

>>1323373
dr white used a ventillator to keep the transplanted monkeys alive

although in his later transplants he reconnected the nerve that controls breathing

>> No.1326884

>>1324963
How'd he keep the brains alive long enough to transplant them?