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/sci/ - Science & Math

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12649610 No.12649610 [Reply] [Original]

Nobel Prize winner Roger Penrose thinks that consciousness is the result of the collapse of the wave function at the quantum level inside neurons in the brain.

Is he right?

>> No.12649629

I've run the numbers and I am proud to announce no

>> No.12649634

Consciousness threads should be a bannable offense.
>>>/his/
>>>/x/
>>>/r/eddit

>> No.12649639

>>12649610
What a faggy thing to say

>> No.12649645
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12649645

>>12649634
>>12649639
>guy is one of the best physicists alive
>received highest award there is
>dudes on /sci/: lmao fag! go back to /x/

>> No.12649651

>>12649645
I never said anything about him, I'm just tired of consciousness spam.

>> No.12649671
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12649671

>>12649651
You realise there's a hide feature on this website? No, don't use it. Waste your time shitting up the thread instead...

>> No.12649683
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12649683

>>12649610
Nobel Prize winner Albert Einstein thought that quantum mechanics was bullshit.

My Nobel Laureate is smarter than your Nobel Laureate, and contradicts the fundamental assumptions (quantum wave function collapse) on which his claim is built.

Penrose BTFO.

>> No.12649687

>>12649610
What? Didn't Penrose himself state that QM can't be applied to the brain, something about biological processes being too slow or something.

>> No.12649691

>>12649645

he is not one of the best physicists alive , maybe one of the faggiest ones

>> No.12649714

>>12649610
There is no evidence to show he is correct. In fact there is zero evidence quantum mechanical effects have anything to do with how the brain works.

>> No.12649718

>>12649683
Wrong. He said it was incomplete, not bullshit. Do you people even read?

>> No.12649719

>>12649687
Isn't the brain just emergent cellular activity. Nobody can explain why quantum effects aren't influencing cellular chemistry. Cells produce molecules to specifically utilize quantum effects.

>> No.12649722

>>12649714
Measurement in QM requires consciousness.

>> No.12649727
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12649727

>>12649722
>Measurement in QM requires consciousness.

>> No.12649730

>>12649727
Please point me to any evidence of a wave function collapse (from a superposition of states) happening without a conscious observer.

>> No.12649743

>>12649730
>Please point me to any evidence of a wave function collapse (from a superposition of states) happening without a conscious observer.
See: Literally every sub atomic interaction

>> No.12649746

>>12649722
prove it.

>> No.12649750

>>12649730
every physical interaction in the universe

>> No.12649789

>>12649743
>>12649750
Have you ever observed the collapse of a wave function? Please tell me where you saw a particle go from a superposition to a single state.

>> No.12649793

>>12649789
So in your universe, there's literally no interaction between anything in the whole universe, until a man observes something? Good to know the laws of physics are invalid everywhere else except on Earth, and only if there's humans around.

>> No.12649798

>There is no evid...
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/01/140116085105.htm

>> No.12649818

>>12649793
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_problem

>> No.12649827

>>12649610
He's wrong.

>> No.12649833

>>12649827
Amazing retort. We're done here, this guy says he's wrong, so he must be.

>> No.12649843

>>12649818
The measurement problem has nothing to do with it requiring a human observer - that is 100% pop-sci nonsense. It is all about interpreting what the maths is describing.

>> No.12649853

>>12649691
>>>/facebook/momsAgainstVaccines

>> No.12649857

>>12649843
>that is 100% pop-sci nonsense
So Schrödinger, Einstein, Heisenberg and Bohr were all into pop-sci nonsense when they were arguing this stuff?

>> No.12649889

>>12649857
You do realise the Schrödinger Cat example was his argument *against* human consciousness being involved right ... right?

>> No.12649892

>>12649889
The cat isn't in a superposition of states. Schrodinger misunderstood the problem because at the time the physics wasn't well developed.

>> No.12649895

He's not a neuroscientist

>> No.12649898

>>12649895
This isn't neuroscience.

>> No.12649902

>>12649718
>>12649683
Not even. He didn't like copenhagen collapse theory. Which had plenty of flaws that were obvious.

>> No.12649905

>>12649892
> The cat isn't in a superposition of states.
bruh

that is literally what that thought experiment is about

>> No.12649908
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12649908

>>12649722
based

>> No.12649909
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12649909

neurons are literally just electrolytes go in electrolytes go out i dunno what the FUCK quantum mechanics as got to do with it

>> No.12649919

>>12649898
Claims about consciousness are domain of neuroscience. Not physics. Neuroscience have a rough understanding of consicousness not as a thing but rather a process of ongoing sensory decoding. It has nothing to do with collapse of quantum states. Collapse of quantum states isn't even quantum mechanics, it's one largely outdated means of interpretation.

>> No.12649930

>>12649909
>what the FUCK quantum mechanics as got to do with it
Electromagnetism governs all chemical processes which include neurons, and electromagnetism manifests on the quantum scale too, quantum electrodynamics. So there's a clear obvious relationship between the processes on the brain and quantum mechanics.

>> No.12649936

>>12649930
If that were true chemistry as a subject wouldn't even exists since every molecular interaction could be explained by physics.

>> No.12649940

>>12649930
Those are purely classic electromagnetic effects but that isn't what Penrose is arguing. He says there could be pure quantum mechanical effects at work in the brain such as entanglement. However there is no evidence to support his guess and in fact the physics is against it because the distances involved are too large.

>> No.12649941

>>12649936
chemistry is just applied physics

>> No.12649944

>collapse of the wave function

literally means just "the die is cast".

>> No.12650186

>>12649919
Neuroscience correlates with consciousness, it doesn't explain it.

>> No.12650202

>>12649905
I mean the cat isn't in a coherent superposition of states. It's a collection of particles and their interactions means the QM effects are no longer noticeable.

>> No.12650219

>>12649722
i bet you also think that "observing" in QM means literally watching with your eyes

>> No.12650231

>>12649908
philosophers occupy themselves with retardness like onthological arguments for god or simulation hypothesis and because of that they cannot be taken seriously.

>> No.12650271

>>12650219
Observing = disturbing the system.

>> No.12650279

>>12650271
i know that

>> No.12650338

>>12650231
Better to be a retard than to willingly lock yourself into a singular path of thinking. The mere fact there is so much shit we can't explain should be proof enough that it's hubris to shit on philosophers questioning perceived reality

>> No.12650353

>>12650271
What system? There are no isolated system in QM.

>> No.12650358

>>12649610
>>12649719
Though Penrose's ideas about physical micro brain structures directly interacting with quantum phenomena are obviously flawed, I hate the fact that we all sort of accept this "emergent cellular activity" idea. It smoothes over so many unkowns.

>> No.12650382

>>12650353
A system is a particle in a superposition of states.

>> No.12650429

>>12649610
Consciousness is brought about by constipation. This is obvious if you just take the time to look at the data.

>> No.12650468

>>12650382
There are no "particle" in superposition. That's not a system. A system means the entire thing. A cat in the particular means the system is the cat, the box, the room, the person, everything. Its trillions and trillions of particles interacting with each other every second. There's no single particle in a superposition.

>> No.12651052

>>12650202
Oh so you mean the rest of the system has collapsed the wave function of the cat without any human observation required...