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/sci/ - Science & Math

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12565237 No.12565237 [Reply] [Original]

Because I'm sick ( no pun intended) of 50 COVID threads and absolutely comfy based threads being lost to the ether, as was the case when this all started, I'm starting a COVID General thread... again.

Discuss the vaccine, science of mRNA and general current data.

Can I also ask you all to by all means engage and debate but be aware of deliberate sliding.

mRNA discussions based and worth reading for many different questions and points.


>> No.12565240

Is there really 66.6 mL of luciferin in moderna vaxx?

>> No.12565242
File: 102 KB, 1024x1024, 1592070242052.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>Statement from Chief Medical Officer Professor Chris Whitty on national alert levels
Chief Medical Officer, Professor Chris Whitty writes about the UK's battle with Covid-19.

>> No.12565248

Once injected, ironically, this frequency is emitted by bodily cells:

>> No.12565256

My gosh, with a frequency spectra like that imagine the corresponding eigenvectors. Probably makes the shape of the damn devil.

>> No.12565264


>The BMA has made an urgent call for all health and social care workers to be vaccinated by the end of January and for those at greatest risk of contracting covid-19 to be vaccinated within two weeks. It said that this was essential, to protect an already depleted workforce and to help prevent the NHS becoming overwhelmed in the next three weeks.

>> No.12565266


>Excess deaths were higher than deaths involving covid-19 in the week leading up to Christmas, the first time this has occurred during the second wave of the pandemic, show the latest provisional figures. Experts said that this may reflect the pressure on care pathways for patients with non-covid conditions.

The number of deaths in the week ending 25 December 2020 was 11520, which was 3566 higher than the five year average for that week, show the Office of National Statistics data for England and Wales.1 The 2912 registered deaths involving covid-19 (and 2497 as the cause of death) were roughly similar to the numbers in preceding weeks

>> No.12565269

We have some serious estimations (or at least opinions from expert) about how the pandemic will develop this year? I mean, what will be the impact of the vaccines? I have the feeling that it will be worse or as bad at least as 2020. There is no way we can catch up with the speed of the virus.

>> No.12565281

This is interesting. Why do you think this?
Could you post anything leading to this?

Personally, from a UK perspective, politics will lead us here down a horrendous path.

The inability of corrupt, incompetent and poor management with the wrong people reutinely in the most powerful positions all the way down our private and public institutions, has allowed decades f fuckery to be exposed to the most pressurised strains

Essentially, yes this year may be equally if not worse than last year but it would have and couldbe significantly mitigated IF the UK had had solid people in good positions in our civil and private institutions and above all a competent cabinet.

Note, a competent cabinet and political leadership is not confined to any particular party or philosophy. A MacMillan, Attlee, Wilson or even the nonce Heath would have managed this better

>> No.12565287

The vaccines are already being administered as 1 shot when really you need 2 in 28 days.

I suspect they are a good hope but I do not trust UK political leadership to not fuck this up... again.

>> No.12565293

use github wall add on by pass to read these

>Officially, it is not a race, nor is there any prize for coming first. As Covid 19 vaccine roll-outs finally get underway around the planet, world leaders have loftily insisted that all that really matters is the safety of humankind.

But while it may be the turning point in the fight against the virus, roll-out time also presents politicians with another grim reality of pandemic politics: namely, are other countries vaccinating faster than us?

In the past month, Britain, America and dozens of other nations have begun their long-awaited vaccination programmes, amid national fanfare. But as health ministries pump out statistics on how many arms have been jabbed, a "league table" has gradually formed, with certain countries far outstripping others. It has led to celebrations in some nations - and excuses, finger-pointing and mudslinging in others...

>> No.12565297

Scientists share the blame for the first wave death toll after so many U-turns. This time it’s all on ministers
Daniel Capurro


>> No.12565298

Well for you UK guys there was arguably a more important problem of Brexit to handle. You guys got the right people in to do that, and got it done. The long term implications of that will be way more far reaching than even if we hit multi-million deaths from Covid just last year. So overall UK did well in managing their government, although pandemic response may not have been so good.

>> No.12565304

Brexit was an absolute shitshow.
This is coming from a brexit supporter btw.

The EU managed to negotiate far better, cause a split and delay the whole thing for4-8 years.
Even now half the shit isn't sorted.

Credit to Frost, he dealt with it well as the senior negotiator put in place after the last one fucked it up, but generally our political leadership shat themselves for years.
See: the MAY years

We should be better, but supply chains are currently vulnerable to regs and checks,

Millions dying is a massive issue as socially and politically it will lead to insane levels of resentment and anger.

>> No.12565312

>This is interesting. Why do you think this?

Three reasons

>The rate of vaccination is very slow and most of the countries are not even starting yet.

>India (the biggest producer of vaccines) will start with their own, making all even more slow for the rest.

> We are putting selective pressure on the virus with our behaviour and lockdowns, so strains like the one in the UK will be more persistent with time.

Idk man, i feel like even with good politicians this would be another rough year. I dont feel too optimistic about the next months.

>> No.12565313

>although pandemic response may not have been so good.

It's been free-wheeling shite.
Which is synonymous with the decaying managerialism of the last 2 decades
Boris, as we saw as Mayor, is not fit for the job. the rest are not exactly miles ahead either.

Good people simply don't stand for political leadership When they do they get slaughtered.

>> No.12565317

Where are you?
Very good points, but don't you think the big non-pharma corps that are losing money over this, will push governments into pushing to get vaccines rolled out quicker?

India is fucked anyway with the corporates happy as things are as Modi has their back. The farmer protests may change the shape of vaccines rollout if the two influence each other.

> We are putting selective pressure on the virus with our behaviour and lockdowns, so strains like the one in the UK will be more persistent with time.
I'm listening, what do you mean?

>> No.12565335

Yeah they did sit for years, good people don't stand up for political leadership. We've gotta get a ton of money and take over like the globalists have.

>> No.12565337

>I'm listening, what do you mean?
The least infectious strain of the virus (the one from China) has a disadvantage with the new variant (if we confirm what the data seems to suggest). The variant from the UK seems to do ok even with lockdowns, so with time, that form of the virus could be the dominant if it spreads to more countries. That is a bad thing for our hopes of getting back to normal life with the new vaccines, because is just much much faster than any health care system. Maybe i am wrong, but im still worried this year will be a shitshow.

>> No.12565458

How can we know that the immune system will even detect the spike protein as a threat if it was created by our body? isn't that why cancer is so hard to treat?

>> No.12565460

If you have a CLIA test to check for IGG and IGM antibodies, does a larger than zero arbitrary units / ML for IGG mean you have prior exposure to the virus or that the machine is just amplifying noise and thinking it's counting reactions?

>> No.12565490

So are you saying the unironically Israel will be the first country to get out of covidhell?

>> No.12565502

>The variant from the UK seems to do ok even with lockdowns
Thank you, UK
Th eternal fucking anglo

>> No.12565899
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>Germany has an average daily vaccination rate of less than 40k citizens

The federal government clowns need to step down.
Also withdraw von der Leyen from Brussels.
This isn't funny anymore.

>> No.12565904

Goes to show you we need an AI-run technocracy that knows how to efficiently solve problems and prepare for potential collapses instead of relying on rich people competing against each other through heavily funded ad campaigns

>> No.12565952

German politicians aren't even "rich".
They are mostly guys (m/f/d) that have failed college, or graduated in some humanities degree, that doesn't allow them to pay their bills, and accordingly politician was their only career choice.
Merkel is an exception to that, which sort of explains her firm grasp on the German politosphere, but unfortunately her environment has turned her into a lame duck.
Especially the years as chancellor Kohl's "minister for women and the youth" probably were extremely formative for her.
Most of them have an inert hate for anything /sci/. I wish I was making this up, but I am not.

>> No.12566055

France is way worse, count your blessings.
We only have 80k vaccinations in 2 weeks...

>> No.12566374


>> No.12566389

the mark of the beast is the american passport

>> No.12566457

>don't complain, we have it worse

Not an argument.
They literally CANCELLED orders at the behest of von der Leyen.

>> No.12566463

Anti-intellectualism is unfortunately what is going to cause the downfall of Europe and America. It's not Israel, immigration, or terrorism. But our own stupidity.

>> No.12566491

Try Post-Structuralism.
The self-proclaimed "Intellect" of our age is trying to get us all killed.
It's not even a conspiracy, since their net gain from this shit is zero.

>> No.12566501

Post-structuralism is anti-intellectual. It considers intelligence and authority to be something not respected or listened to.

>> No.12566711
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>We have some serious estimations
I'm interested in one estimate alone: when will our lives be allowed to get back to normal? In b4 "mutant strain" makes governments extend pandemic measures despite vaccinations.

>> No.12566757
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Assuming you're not a shill pretending to be dumb, the vaccine acts by the same mechanism a virus does: a virus modifies cells to produce move viruses, the same way the mRNA vaccine modifies cells to produce spike proteins. Cells "infected" by the vaccine might probably be destroyed by the immune response along with the protein. Imho auto-immune side-effects seem like a far-bigger-problem than the vaccine not working at all.

>> No.12566785

>How can we know that the immune system will even detect the spike protein as a threat if it was created by our body?
Proteins can be marked by glycans and cells have special molecular mechanisms allowing them to decompose proteins.
The mRNA vaccine is safer than viruses because fewer foreign proteins are created and mRNA is decomposed by cells after some time.

>> No.12566849

How did they manage to time travel to get the long term safety data before being able to roll out the vaccine to millions?

>> No.12566932

>EU decided not to share costs like usually because otherwise germany would have to spend a bit more money
>poorfag countries don't want to sink into eternal debt so they voted against overbuying different vaccines

The rich people in question are probably the ones promiing the politicians well paid future jobs in trade for tax money being used to save their stocks and boni instead of people.

>> No.12567439

I am running some models on stocks and it is predicting the senior living stocks, the event and exposition stocks, e.g. Party City, will go up. I think that basically means we will see some sectors of the economy begin to reopen as the vaccines get distributed.

However the same model is predicting Moderna, Inovio, and a few other vaccine makers will lose value. Which to me implies that the vaccines impact will be limited and there will be a need for alternatives to mRNA vaccine.

>> No.12567724

So I have covid, lost my sense of taste out of work for two weeks, the worse part of it for me has been the lack of taste, while my sister is having trouble breathing. will I get my taste back all at once or will I gradually get it back over a few months?

>> No.12568148

>I am running some models on stocks
Stock values are close to random numbers. You can't predict anything reliably.

It's extremely case-specific. Most people I know who had it got it back gradually after two-three weeks after recovery. One took six months. One hasn't recovered yet and it might well be permanent.

Odds are good, you'll probably be fine soon.

>> No.12569737
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>When you want to export something after decades of American cultural monstrous imports

>> No.12569743

Yes and no
>You now see how inefficient the bureaucracy is

>> No.12569751

How's Macron vs the public sentiment doing? Any happenings not being broadcast to us here in the UK?
Predictions on France and EU in terms of the virus economic political effects??

>> No.12569759

Go on... intriguing anon

>> No.12570064

>Yes and no
What do you mean by that?

>> No.12570080
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bros what do I do

>> No.12570137

It's completely unrelated to "the bureaucracy".
The problem isn't "the bureaucracy", but people ignoring the established rules as they see fit, completely ignoring why rules were put into place, and as a result getting all of us killed.
Fuck the incapable bureaucrats, but also the incapable anti-bureaucrats.
Fuck non-/sci/ people in general.

>> No.12570176

I have the opportunity to get the vaccine. Should I do it and will it give me infertility? I work in healthcare and have to start going into covid rooms soon. Might also go into the military so there is avoiding this bullshit. I figure the vaccine is safer than the body damage caused by covid.

>> No.12570197

>Should I do it
Yes if you're going into covid rooms.
If you don't want it, quit your job and don't put yourself and your patients at risk.
>will it give me infertility?
>I figure the vaccine is safer than the body damage caused by covid.
It is

>> No.12570215

>posting a shitty modern remix by an ugly rapper
please at least have a little more respect for the great Max Romeo

>> No.12570223

It really depends one on the behaviour of the population and two if any glowies seed the virus again.

>> No.12570236

>See: the MAY years
May was literally fostered into that position, she was backed by controlling hands for years despite being utterly useless. I still don't understand how Andrea Leadsom was guilted out of the leadership race.

>> No.12570298

It is a time of knowledge
but of no understanding

Poor people in poor positions leading to immense stupidity and lack of belief and structures decaying
Adam Curtis

>> No.12570330

calm yer tits

>> No.12570375

The rules are highly inconsistent, people are fatigued, frustrated and confused

>> No.12570389

The NEW rules are highly inconsistent.
Not the bureaucracy that has been around for ages.
This isn't bureaucracy, it's plain despotism.

>> No.12570416
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i rather risk getting covid than the vaccine, my whole life every year i had tonsillitis (nothing last 3 years) one time even mononucleosis, so high fevers and loss of smell/taste is nothing new to me and im kinda surprised people are such pussies about it ... btw i never had flu, so im a schizo and i dont fucking trust the vaccine and this whole shit show and i will kill if im forced to take it, life suck anyway

>> No.12570421
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Octopuses do not have any bones with the exception of their beaks. So if you are responsible and depraved enough to be literally the life support of your 8 limbed friend, you can debeak it like how you’d declaw a cat and then push your member into its feed chute.

You can then let it subsist on your baby batter.

The Octopus is smart. Very smart. It will learn that without its beak, it cannot feed on anything else but your human seed that has to be milked from you.

Every morning, you will feel your clothes slide off and a damp weight on your lower half.

The sensation creeps up on your body until most of the jiggly mass has enveloped the entire length. It will start pumping as fast as it can for it is hungry.

The animal gyrates its empty stomach and the folds of its brain rubbing on your glands, begging for nutrition.

You climax and give the marine creature’s breakfast. The pumping slows down but doesn’t stop to milk out the last few drops of its meal.

Looking into its yellow animal eyes, it looks back with a thousand-yard stare. This will be routine for all of its meals for the rest of its 3-5 years on this god forsaken planet.

>> No.12570572

Only good post in this thread.

>> No.12570831

*no avoiding
Okay so should I choose pfizer or moderna or are they both g2g health wise?

>> No.12570837

both are sketchy as fuck and not subjectable to damages claims

>> No.12570838

Pfizer has less side effect profile overall compared to Moderna. Is your hospital offering both?

>> No.12570953


Lol you mean the lockdowns everyones ignoring?

>> No.12570954

Bat echolocation treatment

>> No.12570957
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Why bother with the vaccine? The pandemic is over. Go buy some stuff. Spend money on movie tickets or a concert. Get out there! As pic shows, we can now reopen the economy without bothering with extensive vaccination first.

>> No.12570974


Yeah well glowies have been seeding MERS so dont be surprised.

>> No.12571002

>Essentially, yes this year may be equally if not worse than last year but it would have and couldbe significantly mitigated IF the UK had had solid people in good positions in our civil and private institutions and above all a competent cabinet.
perhaps I'm being hopelessly optimistic but might that not lead to the various 'fail upward' types infesting the UK government actually losing their jobs and being replaced by actually competent people? I'm told it has happened before

>> No.12571010

Darwinian natural selection at its finest right here in this thread

>> No.12571011

I guess the fail upwards types don't like stressful situations where their incompetence is exposed.

>> No.12571014

That depends quiet a bit on how you define 'normal'
Going forward, the world is going to be a lot poorer and unstable than it was up until now, and that will continue to have various impacts on your day to day life for decades to come

>> No.12571017

Not a chance, we beat them months ago

>> No.12571053
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>Why don't you have a public option healthcare universal?

>> No.12571063
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A few will go with handsome payoffs and the cycle will continue with a new cast of cronies and twats

Dilbert principle is alive and well but also mass corruption
Just look at DIDO HARDIng and of course this man:

>> No.12571066

Good for you.
Can I have your tv when you've left this mortal coil?

>> No.12571182

Interesting german doctor, your thoughts?

>> No.12571356

>A few will go with handsome payoffs and the cycle will continue with a new cast of cronies and twats
As is tradition, I suppose

>> No.12572256
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>'fail upward'
That's a nice terminus.
Describes this manifestation of plain incapability perfectly.
Oettinger and Weber had similar type promotions to Brussels.
And after their career they get some "breakfast manager" position at a company they were helpful for during their stint.

Most Western democracies are broken at a fundamental level, and it becomes increasingly painful to watch this mess unfold.

>> No.12572270

I think the explanation for moderna's futures is because companies don't want to be seen capitalising from the pandemic and therefore actual vaccine profits will be marginal, or will be burned in some other sector of research within the company

>> No.12572881

dilbert princile

>> No.12573007


>Covid: 2020 saw most excess deaths since World Wart Two

>> No.12573259

>World Wart Two
What have I missed?
Was there a "World Wart One"?

>> No.12573405


>> No.12573473


>> No.12574041

Well, if we figure in that the lockdowns are also leading to excess death and that rushed medical treatment experiments also cause excess deaths than we should look at a country that maybe at least didn’t do the lockdowns to the full extent in order to see, how bad the virus was there.
If you factor in that even they closed the care homes than we can see that the virus itself certainly isn’t that dangerous.
If anybody is interested I have the data on loneliness and lack of touch being the single most predictive factor(s) for bad outcomes in old people with respiratory illnesses. It’s strongly immunosuppressive.

>> No.12574074

What's he mechanism?

>> No.12574120

Yes, because loneliness and delayed medical treatment is why people are being up with positive covid cases that require hospitalization

Honestly, Tory governments, even with this lockdown delayed delayed delayed delayed delayed until the hospitals were flooded

>> No.12574195

I meant infections.
It’s multiple mechanisms not all known, but it’s clear why it makes sense. Your immune system evolutionary getting active when it’s in very close contact with many others makes sense. Being alone also causes stress in most people, especially people who need other people and if we look at the signaling pathways of stress they down regulate many components of the immune system, if it goes above a certain thresholds. It also causes worse cell status in general. It’s probably also because somebody, who looks at you can give you tips, mobilize and intervene, if somebody in the nursing home isn’t receiving proper care. My personal guess would be they also get healthy microbiom from close contact with fit and healthy people especially, if they are related.

>> No.12574259

I kind of partly disagree with the delayed treatment being the major issue. I think that throwing the kitchen sink at it was. I mean there are investigations into the mechanical ventilation being done in people with strong relative contraindications just because there was the possibility that they might later need it and the procedure couldn’t be properly done without exposing medical personal to the virus, if they weren’t prepared and it suddenly needed to be done. And let’s guess, what effect opioids and propofol do have on the immune system and cell health. There is a strong debate about the differenten clinical courses and use of mechanical ventilation in them. But I agree many of the people in the nursing homes, but equally a few of the people being cared for in their one home were in a bad state due to improver care to begin with. Seeing their family is a mayor reason to life for many of them, if they can’t they may don’t make any effort to stay around,

>> No.12574279


>> No.12574285

>Cells "infected" by the vaccine might probably be destroyed by the immune response along with the protein
I'm trying to find information on how the distrubtion of the mRNA particles end up once injected into a muscle. I know it's an intramuscular injection but it's not like muscles are avascularized tissue blocks that only permit diffusion of things injected into them.

If parts of the vaccine disseminates into the bloodstream can we assume it will mainly just destroy endothelium in the blood vessels or could it also be assumed that a wide range of other tissues might be targeted?

Also 50 μg of BNT162b1(pfizer mrna vaccine), contains how many mRNA vesicles exactly? Millions? Billions? Trillions?

>> No.12574306
File: 18 KB, 1126x171, covid deafs.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Guys, wasn't the vaccine supposed to decrease the amount of daily deaths?

>> No.12574337

Little do you know that very religious Christians are the people that live most accordingly with Darwin principles. They have many children, live the traditional life styles/gender roles supporting that and often prefer natural immunity, which also selects for a better immune system.
How isn’t it a valid evolutionary choice to not take a vaccine, if we all take it and something goes wrong that could be pretty bad. So in fact it’s optimization of the human survival portfolio.
Also the joke is one you, because implying there is a significant risk for a moderately healthy reproductively active individual to die due to SARS-CoV-2.

>> No.12574350

more people were being killed by the overtreatment at one stage
hexachloroquine overdosing, forced ventilation, etc, etc

>> No.12574354

Oh I remember something about a study with old people and toddlers interacting and it seemed to greatly improve the oldfolks health

>> No.12574369

based and religion as a vehicle of eugenics pilled

>> No.12574589

t. burger land

Not in Europe they weren't lad

>> No.12574594

I've seen english records

>> No.12574743

sure you have
Just like you've seen a doctor

Post your evidences then

>> No.12575029

Can any biofag explain to me how the mrna package is supposed to get into our cells so that our ribosomes can create the spike protein?

Can they also explain how the spike protein will leave our cells once they are produced so that they can be intercepted by or immune systems and antibodies created? Presumably with cell death and explosion?

Not shilling, just dumb.

>> No.12575127

Short answer is endocytosis. Basically there is phospholipid bi layer around cells. This layer isn’t static but constantly moving and if there comes something with lipid (like a lipid nanoparticle) along there is a greater than zero chance of the particle interacting/melting with the membrane (via many different mechanisms) and the interior of sad particle ending up on the inner side of the cell.

>> No.12575132

Maybe I will answer the second question and go a little bit into the details later.

>> No.12575206

Based pajeets always have good vids on this. Recommend watching it. Has good explanation and diagrams.

This >>12575127 for the first q
For the second q, I am going to simplify the immunology a lot. Please watch the video above for a good explanation and good pics.

Basically most of the spike proteins produced will be packaged the Golgi and secreted extracellularly while some are processed inside the cell and then displayed on its surface.

>So first the spike (S) proteins on the surface of the "vaccine" cell:
Basically it's on a receptor called MHC-I. It binds to a cytotoxic T lymphocyte (CTL)

>For the S released proteins:
B cells which act in humoral or "blood" immunity will bind the S proteins and then make antibodies against S proteins. The S proteins will also be taken up by antigen-presenting cells like macrophages and presented to helper T cells. The helper T cells produce chemicals called cytokines and interleukins which cause the activation and division + growth of T (helper and cytotoxic) and B cells "clonal proliferation" so you make lots of T and B cells specifically that target the S proteins that are either on the surface of the vaccine cells or the S proteins floating around extracellularly.

So the cytotoxic T cells (CTLs) kill the vaccine cells, the B cells become plasma cells and make lots of antibodies to destroy the S proteins, and the helper T cells help to make memory versions of all these cells which remain dormant in case you get infected in the future so your body is ready to kickass when you get the real deal. They also activate themselves to make four major forms: Th1, Th2, Th17, Treg.


>> No.12575219

Th1 and Th17 act to help the CTLs. Th2 help the B/plasma cells. Treg makes sure to regulate the immune system so it doesn't go into hyperdrive and kill all your cells. So Treg is really important in what's called "peripheral tolerance" and making sure your immune cells just get enough practice to form enough memory cells and not do an all out assault on your own cells.

Both the humoral response of the B cells and the cell-mediated response of the T cells are important in fighting SARS-CoV2 if you have it so it's important both are activated. There is some research that suggests the cell-mediated response is more important the the humoral response.

So basically the vaccine makes spike proteins, the spike proteins activate B and CTLs and your helper T cells help to make sure you make lots of memory cells which remain dormant for a real infection. Your Tregs make sure you don't cause too much inflammation and destruction of your own cells in a process called peripheral tolerance/immunoregulation.

In AIDS, they lose the ability to make helper T cells because HIV kills them really well. That's why they are so susceptible to disease. Which is why I love helper T cells and how cool they are.

Immunology is a pretty cool subject. If you're interested more, I recommend reading Janeway's Immunobiology as a beginner's guide and Abbas if you feel comfortable after Janeway


>> No.12575639 [DELETED] 


>> No.12575715

How many are vaccinated?
This pandemic has high latency, results take weeks to show up.

>> No.12575721

>Not shilling, just dumb.
It's sad that people with genuine questions have to say this on a "science" forum. Really tells you everything about the state of this board.

>> No.12575724

>Basically most of the spike proteins produced will be packaged the Golgi and secreted extracellularly while some are processed inside the cell and then displayed on its surface.
Is there a video of this process? Would be cool to see a cell produce spikes.

Thanks for the info!

>> No.12575727

It's not.

>> No.12575731

All viruses development has been immune to civil damages since the mid 2000s. It's not unique to COVID vaccines. The protection ends around 2024 so unironically you might be able to sue if something goes wrong then.

>> No.12575755

great posts

>> No.12575839

>All viruses development

>> No.12575921
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>> No.12575932


>> No.12576342

A+ video, but why is that guy coofing so suspiciously?

>> No.12576411 [DELETED] 
File: 971 KB, 2674x1148, cov.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Debate openmindedly, without insults please.

>> No.12576421

as much as i hate him, bill gate is no midwit like fauci. he is mensa+ lvl iq but evil.

>> No.12576534 [DELETED] 

If he was so smart, he would realize that going down the path of lies will end up blowing in his face.
I think he is above average in terms of intelligence, but not very wise and certainly not a genius.

>> No.12576556

he's not a medically recognised expert though

>> No.12576583
File: 1012 KB, 1280x960, Mhm-hm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Well look at that.The media and 'experts' are beginning to roll back their apocalyptic rhetoric concerning Covid?.
How interesting. What curious timing.

>> No.12576625


>> No.12577688

>(Reuters) - The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said it had administered 10,278,462 first doses of COVID-19 vaccines in the country as of Wednesday morning

What data is there on reactions to the vaccinations in the general populace?

>> No.12577764


>> No.12577861

Alleged Pfizer leaks

What of these?#

>> No.12577863

Physical reactions,

>> No.12577892

Totally a coincidence.
Also the people at Imperial College should be launched into the Sun.

>> No.12577908

>What data is there on reactions to the vaccinations in the general populace?

these niggers have data on every fucking shit but they cant come up with relevant vaccination stats

>> No.12577965

I hunted for that title, no luck

Maybe my googlefu is weak.

>> No.12578056

I should have gone to CDC first
Jan 6

(sorry for the yelling)






















>> No.12578117

I want a source and the raw data. Also the leaked data includes an extremely long list of all kinds of adverse site effects. And there are ongoing investigations into many deaths and cases of currently critically ill people.

>> No.12578127

Some disagree

>> No.12578143


I just put an excerpt, whole thing is here.

A start, but not enough info...

>> No.12578149

This is not my opinion, just starting to answer my own question.

>> No.12578167

Also interested in the DNA based vaccine that is supposed to be in the works.

>> No.12578174

They stopped public reporting in december because [it was totally so safe that it wasn't felt needed]

>> No.12578199


>> No.12578201

Opening up just feels like giving up. I don't want to be part of a generation that got dabbed on by a low mortality flu and be laughed at in the history books.

>> No.12578202


>> No.12579125

Okay. However have you read it?

>> No.12579131

The human Adenovirus vaccine from Britain and the chimpanzee Adenovirus vaccine from Russia are basically DNA vaccines.

>> No.12579139
File: 117 KB, 330x317, rip_finger.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

fauci would fucking mog you to oblivion you literal dumb cunt

>> No.12579144

Fauci was mostly quoted by pop scientists however. The real top notch like Karry Mullis always said he was an establishment climber, without insight into the deep science.

>> No.12579149

If you want I will shine some light on the methodology of this article https://academic.oup.com/jid/article/195/7/1018/800918 of him to make clear, why he isn’t the icon that many think he is.

>> No.12579353
File: 89 KB, 749x450, strangelove-bodilyfluids.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

jesus imagine being (you)

>> No.12579358

True. Fauci is honestly a genius. Loved his chapters in Harrison.

>> No.12579381
File: 2.23 MB, 480x600, 1610503068847.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

Can't just be happy that alot of chinks and fats died?

>> No.12580036

What board? /b/? /pol/?
/sci/ is but at 12M, those are 302M.

>> No.12580638

Interesting thread.

>> No.12580740

I was so tired I mixed it up the two human Adenovirus strains are in the Russian vaccine.

>> No.12580774

They're fucking with us at this point

>> No.12580881

Fixing the links:

>> No.12580944

I see through this clever ruse

>> No.12581044

These are also decent, but I was specifically referring to this one >>12580638 in here.
Stop your childish pretending. Well argued and researchable things have a merit of their own independently of where they are from.

>> No.12581199

>Well argued and researchable things have a merit of their own
Sure, but that's not typical /pol/ content.

>> No.12581444

>It’s multiple mechanisms not all known, but it’s clear why it makes sense. Your immune system evolutionary getting active when it’s in very close contact with many others makes sense. Being alone also causes stress in most people, especially people who need other people and if we look at the signaling pathways of stress they down regulate many components of the immune system, if it goes above a certain thresholds. It also causes worse cell status in general. It’s probably also because somebody, who looks at you can give you tips, mobilize and intervene, if somebody in the nursing home isn’t receiving proper care. My personal guess would be they also get healthy microbiom from close contact with fit and healthy people especially, if they are related.
How convenient that Sweden's neighbors didn't suffer from these issues despite imposing lock downs.

>> No.12581451

>Not in Europe they weren't lad
The USA's deaths per case is lower than many countries in Europe, the issue is that the USA has an extraordinary amount of cases.

>> No.12581462

But there are well sourced and argued posts in these threads.

>> No.12581474

Are you prone to believing information that doesn't link to actual articles? The New York Times posted no such article.

>> No.12581483

Would you mind to elaborate? We already figured Sweden doesn’t have excess death beyond the usual trend.

>> No.12581498

right on brother. i aint taking that shit either. i have yet to see ANY evidence of covid at ALL. just fake news.

>> No.12581517

The argument was that the excess deaths are a result of lock downs, not the virus. Yet Sweden's neighbors have no excess deaths. Neither does Germany. Many countries that had strict lock downs experienced no excess deaths.

>> No.12581565

Sweden doesn’t have excess deaths if you adjust for demographic trends there isn’t a beyond expected mortality. I already posted the data. While England with strict measures has excess mortality.

>> No.12581745

Are you smoking crack? I didn't say anything about Sweden's death totals.

>> No.12581755

>While small benefits cannot be excluded, we do not find significant benefits on case growth of more restrictive NPIs.
>Similar reductions in case growth may be achievable with less restrictive interventions.

>> No.12581760

So in your opinion the virus isn’t really a significant treat?

>> No.12581769

S. Korea, which uses insane contact tracing measures, mandatory mask use, temperature checks before entering buildings, etc.

Sweden, which has a very high case rate, but is being saved by having the highest single household proportion in all of Europe, which has helped younger people spread the virus among themselves instead of to the elderly.

>> No.12581772

>The national criteria most associated with death rate are life expectancy and its slowdown, public health context (metabolic and non-communicable diseases (NCD) burden vs. infectious diseases prevalence), economy (growth national product, financial support), and environment (temperature, ultra-violet index). Stringency of the measures settled to fight pandemia, including lockdown, did not appear to be linked with death rate.

>> No.12581786

No. I think it's unlikely to be a significant cause of death in younger people. Whether that means it's benign is a totally different argument. Sweden has a very low rate of multi-generational homes, so it's managed to have a high case rate while keep fatality rate low. That same approach wouldn't be a great idea in countries where the elderly often live with their children and grandchildren.

>> No.12581815

They are fooling you. Cases are utterly irrelevant. We can go into the specifics, if you want. It’s all about the real-time-qRT-PCR test. You can’t compare case number since that test depends on genes targeted, number genes targeted, location of the genes targeted, primer design, melting temperature, ct-value and the experience of the lab workers and those who take the test, but also test indication/criteria. The test can’t tell you, if there is any viable virus it just amplifies RNA. The guy, who invented the test remarked about it almost having buddhistic qualities, because it’s so strong in amplifying things you can almost find anything everywhere.

>> No.12581820

>we present data demonstrating that mortality due to covid-19... could have been largely predicted even before the pandemic hit Europe, simply by looking at longitudinal variability of all-cause mortality rates in the years preceding the...outbreak

>> No.12581831

>Our analysis shows that while infection levels decreased, they did so before lockdown was effective, and infection numbers also decreased in neighbour municipalities without mandates

>> No.12581850


swiss doctor who lays emphasis on being non conspiratory claims there that one of the vaccines uses DNA and that neutropenia is common for weeks after the vaccines.

He also elaborates on how thes trials got shortened by a principle called "telescoping" where trial 1&2 run at the same time and trial 3 runs midterm.

>> No.12581864

this was excellent thank you!!!!

>> No.12581874

Is the Austriafag that posted in this thread around here?
You posted this link
Said you were data analyst.

pls respond

>> No.12581881

I work in a hospital.
I had bad Covid-Symptoms for like 8 days. Got a PCR test in the hospital. Negative.

Thing is I snort a shitload of coke and I think I snorted speed one day before the test and smoke a shitload of weed. Could this have made my PCR negative despite being infected?

>> No.12581902

If anything you shouldnt be infected because your receptors are broken. You probably just had something else.

>> No.12581930

Impossible to tell for sure, but most likely it’s Influenza. And drugs certainly don’t make symptoms better, if you are overworked on top and don’t listen to the signs of your body it’s not unlikely for a „usual“ respiratory infection to take a worse course. Cocaine is very likely immune suppressive. Could also be an Adenovirus or Parainfluenza. Who knows. It doesn’t really make a difference in what you will do in a mild case.

>> No.12582017

You are welcome.
I don’t know. Probably he isn’t. My guess is that „data analyst“ is an euphemism for molecular biologist/geneticists or biostatistician/bioinformatician. I was there with him talking about the immune system, but it got archived pretty fast, what do you want to know, maybe I can help.

>> No.12582038

thanks doc

>> No.12582045

Not a physician, but I‘m glad it helped you.

>> No.12582048

>My guess is that „data analyst“ is an euphemism for molecular biologist/geneticists or biostatistician/bioinformatician. I was there with him talking about the immune system, but it got archived pretty fast, what do you want to know, maybe I can help.

I thought so too and I think I might fleetingly "know" the person because I also work in that field and in the same country as him (her).

>> No.12582055

Yes I did, thanks for posting it.

>> No.12582072

We also have antibody tests, and far more Swedes have been exposed than their neighbors.

>> No.12582081

My Uncle felt awful, had a negative PCR and antibody test, a month later he retested antibodies and was positive. PCR will miss a lot of cases.

>> No.12582116

The likelihood of the antibody test being a false negative is also there. But sure you can get a false negative from qRT-PCR, but it’s not that likely a false positive is much more likely. Maybe it was a different human CoV and the antibody matched, we will never know.

>> No.12582129

can anyone get into this? The guy is claiming the vaccine trials were significantly shortened. He says Trial 1 and 2 were happening at the same time.
he also claimed that they didnt roll back after 2 cases of ADE.

>> No.12582230

What’s wrong with phase 1+2 at the same time? Name one bad thing about it.
Is the moderna vaccine better? I read it was used with people with issues while everyone who did Pfizer is healthier. (Not for me, I will not take it)

>> No.12582245

Not a her. And I don’t just go by the statistics of this site. I‘m fairly certain about it.
>feelingly know him
Yes indeed he comes of as Austrian. I really like his humor.
Was a pleasure.
>far more Swedes have been exposed
I would agree, if you are talking about neoliberal propaganda...
Well as somebody with little insight into the topic I would be interested, how you determined that. But if so it would be great, seems like it would validate Ioannidis and imply it truly was comparable to a moderate seasonal flu mortality wise.

>> No.12582275

I hope somebody else will go into it. Otherwise I will go into it. It’s hard to compress this stuff in a reasonable manner.

>> No.12582381

I think it was only done with the ChadOX vaccine (UK, adenovirus vac)
So no info about moderna's.
And yeah ofc it's not good to compress these trials, if something goes wrong you usually go back to trial phase one to discern if the problem actually arose from the vaccine or not. He even mentions that ADE didn't have to come from the vaccine.
The bad thing is that you're basically turning humans into trial phase I subjects...

>> No.12582393

Also when the fuck is Sci getting IDs what is this bullshit , aftezr months on /biz/ I realize all boards without IDs are fucking bullshit. I love /sci/ but it really needs IDs(no flags though)

>> No.12582475

>I think it was only done with the ChadOX vaccine (UK, adenovirus vac)
The platform to some degree, but not the insert. They can’t have done it you usually need 8-10 years to get a vaccine approved. And Adenovirus vectors don’t have a very good track record. mRNA also was „tested“ and like I already mentioned it was often done as a last line of defense for people, who really needed something and just with a few people. That makes it even harder to find out, what caused what. So there is a huge question mark above these trials. Obviously it was different mRNA and not the spike protein, so that makes it even more questionable, if the there is any comparison to be made.
>did the vaccine cause the problem
That’s the tricky question and always the huge thing the industry can count on.
>The bad thing is that you're basically turning humans into trial phase I subjects
Yes and it essentially happens to everybody. Because the people in the official phase 1 trial also just have gotten it less than 10 months ago. On top of that they got it with toxicology and animals models not being fully done or at least I can’t find the data. There is a lot to be said. Maybe things will all go well, but maybe they won’t.
We can do it. It can be faked, but it’s good enough. In general you can also guess it.

>> No.12582502

>mRNA also was „tested“ and like I already mentioned it was often done as a last line of defense for people, who really needed something and just with a few people.
I think I mentioned that in another thread. Sorry.

>> No.12582577

I am being told by our government that they did not check the vaccine (biontech/pfizer) for sterility / wether the vaccinated would stay transmissive and therefore cannot talk about specific quotas that need to be reached, or really anything regarding lifting the lockdown.
How can that be? Seems like top priority to me, or I must be missing something.

>> No.12582624

I was thinking for a moment, if you are talking about adverse effects to the human reproductive system or to „sterilizing“ immunity or in other words, if you are talking about virus or host. I personally can give you a yes to both alternatives. They haven’t done it. And this stuff needs years. Well maybe, if you assume good faith it’s over for the most part, if the people at risk, who want it, take the vaccine. For young people I don’t see any benefit. Safe for the very rare exception.
>lifting the lockdown
Since there is no evidence base for the lockdowns and nothing that indicates excess mortality or overwhelmed ICUs. I doubt they will lift the lockdowns on anything evidence based.

>> No.12582763

Yeah, I was asking regarding immunity. I figured you would immediately test that in animal models as part of the vaccine trials. I know that researchers normally would want and need a lot more time for all these trials, but throwing a bunch of ex-infected and vaccinated monkeys or rats into a room for a week doesn't seem like the biggest task from my naive perspective. just to get a preliminary even.
>adverse effects to the human reproductive system
yeah, "no data available" lel. understandable though, no real way to do a rushjob with that.

>> No.12582818
File: 19 KB, 1101x194, vaccoooone.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

How long until the vacciiiiine starts working?

>> No.12582862

If it’s the flu/false positives the numbers will stay about the same.

>> No.12582925

Thanks for the detailed responses, anon.

>> No.12582980

>but throwing a bunch of ex-infected and vaccinated monkeys or rats into a room for a week doesn't seem like the biggest task from my naive perspective. just to get a preliminary even.

"The mRNA-1273 vaccine candidate induced antibody levels exceeding those in human convalescent-phase serum, with live-virus reciprocal 50% inhibitory dilution (ID50) geometric mean titers of 501 in the 10-μg dose group and 3481 in the 100-μg dose group. Vaccination induced type 1 helper T-cell (Th1)–biased CD4 T-cell responses and low or undetectable Th2 or CD8 T-cell responses. Viral replication was not detectable in BAL fluid by day 2 after challenge in seven of eight animals in both vaccinated groups. No viral replication was detectable in the nose of any of the eight animals in the 100-μg dose group by day 2 after challenge, and limited inflammation or detectable viral genome or antigen was noted in lungs of animals in either vaccine group."

So the Moderna vaccine resulted in sterilizing immunity in primates. Whether the effect holds in humans in unknown.

>> No.12583039

Sounds good, I'm losing my fucking mind sat in front of a computer screen.

>> No.12583119

Mayor issues.
Not double blinded. Not long time. No simulation of actual contact with an infectious host. No exact disclosure of used assays.
>N-specific IgG in serum was quantified by enzyme-linked immunosorbent assay (ELISA); the methods used were similar to previously published methods.
Also conflicts of interests in some authors. Also n=12. I couldn’t find the age/sex of the animals in the placebo and the verum 10 μg and 100 μg group. Well I mean better than nothing I guess.

>> No.12583123

I meant n=24

>> No.12583181

Why would you need a double blind study in primates to measure viral replication? Usually double blind studies are to make sure you're not just measuring a placebo effect. All primates were between three and six years old, twelve of each sex.


>> No.12583188

I found the age and sex of the apes. Well seems okay, but obviously implies it wasn’t randomized. Let’s assume they were healthy. Looking at their data I’m not sure, if I agree with the conclusions. I maybe will calculate it. But see for yourself https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7449230/bin/NEJMoa2024671_appendix_2.xlsx

>> No.12583203

I mean I didn’t find, if the people doing the experiments and the people analyzing the data were blinded. I don’t know what they put into the placebo monkeys, would be an interesting question.

>> No.12583241

>issues with sedation
I also don’t get how they managed to have to exclude the the one placebo monkey. Seems kind of odd, but what to I know.

>> No.12583464


>> No.12583471

>how you determined that

>> No.12583520

I haven't looked at the numbers recently, but during the summer, antibody rates showed about 1% of Norway's population had been infected, compared to 10% for Sweden. Now if you look at actual cases (via PCR instead of antibodies), you'll see Sweden has about 10x more cases than Norway, but Sweden also has an 11% positivity rate and Norway has a 1.8% positivity rate. Sweden would need to test a lot more to get down to Norway's positivity rate, which would drive up their case rate as well.

>> No.12583532
File: 63 KB, 836x746, Посещение_пункта_вакцинации_от_COVID-19_(С._Собянин;_декабрь_2020)_(3,_cropped).jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


So how did the Russians manage to develop a superior, cheaper and less volatile vaccine quicker than the combined resources of the ZOG Empire and its capitalist corporate actors?

>> No.12583533


Natural immunity is more effective than vaccine-derived immunity, since the spike protein you are being vaccinated against is already different on wild SARS viruses.

>> No.12584595

I mean I would be interested in looking at the data. However I have strong suspicion that probably the people weren’t really chosen random, the assays they used could be different, probably they just look for antibodies and not for b memory cells and antibodies drop rather rapidly. Most immunity in hCoVs likely is just t-cell and faster/more fine tuned “innate” immune related. There is a ton of other factors, but safe to say Sweden managed it very decently. They didn’t destroy their economy, which undoubtedly does lead to a lower standard of health care in the future and per inhabitants in 2020 it had the 4 lowest mortality rate in the last 11 years.

>> No.12584610


>> No.12584629
File: 69 KB, 1024x730, new_york_did_it_correctly.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]


>> No.12584631


>> No.12584636

I agree. My strong suspicion is they chose the spike, because you can get seemingly impressive short term results (because the spike is out there and can be easily “caught” and for other more technical reasons), but suck in the long term, because it also is the region with the most change in the genome. I think the body probably knows better, how to interact with the viriom. If it was the best way to just go for spikes our immune system would do it, but instead it picks multiple targets, also many from more stable regions of the virus genome present in all CoVs. Even the rescue against variola major/minor (smallpox) isn’t really as much of a vaccine story, but a tale about the viriom out there already having the answer. I think you should be careful in, what you bias the immune system towards and original antigenic sin should be widened to continuing antigenic sin.

>> No.12584638


>> No.12584661

I already explained, why cases aren’t that important and don’t really tell much about what’s going on. Just look at the mortality.

>> No.12584674

Is there a compiled deaths in 2020 vs deaths in previous year stat for countries somewhere?

>> No.12584687

>i have no argument

>> No.12584692

>just cherry pick

>> No.12584693

Completely wrong. The titre levels in your serum are much higher than after natural infection and hence, more effective at building a solid immune response. Up to 8 times higher in the case of mRNA covid-19 vaccines.

>> No.12584705

I don’t cherry pick. I explained why you can’t use case numbers.
If you want I can also in detail explain, why a COVID-19 death also doesn’t mean much.
But we can get the overall mortality pretty precisely. It’s objectively the best measurement to at least determine, if something is going on.

>> No.12584734

what's the mechanism?

>> No.12584735

There will be but the issue is can you best find a standardized process of collation across so many wanker politicians and systems?

>> No.12584766

fuck off shill
neither efficacy or sideeffects are better. Stupid wintermonkey.

>> No.12584768

Harsh, can you show us the comparisons of how the this is structured vs the others you purt higher

>> No.12584773

Any actual MD's or nurses here? Did you get the jab? Risk/benefit analysis with no long term data?

>> No.12584797

how about the one that starts saying something is better starts proving shit?

>> No.12584814

Your thing is you don’t listen to people with a more complex understanding of the topic. Just because some titter is higher doesn’t mean that’s the ultimative protection. The metabolism depends on homeostasis so you can’t ramp up something through the roof and call it a day. There is a reason, why there is immune down regulation the immune system contrary to common understanding is very powerful, if it runs of it can certainly destroy anything, however afterwards there will be nothing left to protect. Also neutralization in vitro is something different a complete immune response in vivo. Same goes for the animal model, in comparison to humans. You have to consider future developments on top of it too. See>>12584636

>> No.12584818


>> No.12584827

What would a nurse be able to tell you about it? Even most physicians will be clueless, on top of that everybody can claim to be anything here. You will have to find somebody informed you can trust or get into the data yourself.

>> No.12584855

very helpful. Elaborate please.

>> No.12584886

No him, but I already did.
Here is more https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/adenovirus-vector

>> No.12584887

Yes. I've read alot of antivax theories about this vaccine but fail to find something solid except the lack of time. On the other hand the ones who took it already are generally pro vax or just full pragmatics.

>> No.12584899

Second link wasn’t copied

>> No.12584904

Here you go >>12546301

>> No.12584959
File: 341 KB, 475x356, Go on the internet and tell lies.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

How can they possibly know long Covid is definitely a thing with long term implications?

>> No.12585194

>Your thing is you don’t listen to people with a more complex understanding of the topic.
Assumptions assumptions.
>Just because some titter is higher doesn’t mean that’s the ultimative protection
Well, nobody claimed so. Fact is, antibody levels after natural infection decrease earlier and steeper than vaccine-induced levels. Sure, it's only a part of the immune response, but sterilizing immunity is what we need to reduce the spread.
>There is a reason, why there is immune down regulation the immune system contrary to common understanding is very powerful, if it runs of it can certainly destroy anything
True, which we know from, e.g., cytokine storms.
The spike protein for SARS-nCoV-2 doesn't mutate a whole lot, that's why the vaccine protects against at least 19 tested variants. All of which were injected into the test subjects (inactivated, obviously, but in vivo). For the same reason it very likely protects against the new variants as well.

>> No.12585197

Damaged organ is damaged organ.

>> No.12585208

I don’t think you can evaluate the validity of expert opinion, if you believe the average MD or nurse will have the nuanced understanding of immunology, pharmacology and other disciplines required to tell you, what you should think about a new vaccination technology.

>> No.12585618


>> No.12585744

>A group of researchers at Stanford published a peer-reviewed study earlier this month assessing the impact of lockdowns and stay-at-home orders — what they refer to as non-pharmaceutical interventions (NPIs) in early 2020. The study did not find evidence to support that NPIs were effective in preventing the spread.
>“In summary, we fail to find strong evidence supporting a role for more restrictive NPIs in the control of COVID in early 2020,” the study concludes. “We do not question the role of all public health interventions, or of coordinated communications about the epidemic, but we fail to find an additional benefit of stay-at-home orders and business closures. The data cannot fully exclude the possibility of some benefits. However, even if they exist, these benefits may not match the numerous harms of these aggressive measures. More targeted public health interventions that more effectively reduce transmissions may be important for future epidemic control without the harms of highly restrictive measures.”
Ok sweetie, you can take off your mask now and reopen everything. Our understanding of the virus has evolved.

>> No.12586184
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>> No.12586194

kys retard

>> No.12586209
File: 40 KB, 657x527, 1609315326516.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]

>kys retard

>> No.12586216

The science has changed, or at least it will in about five days.

>> No.12586217

Biden is awesome. Finally a president listening to the science.

>> No.12586227

non-american here
is this guy even alive? am I looking at a corpse speaking? what happened to that blond guy?

>> No.12586250

This was in the summer, like June or so I believe, so I doubt antibodies had disappeared by that point from the wave that started in Feb/March.

>Sweden managed it very decently. They didn’t destroy their economy
Their economy has suffered almost as much as their neighbors'. Contrary to what's been stated about no lock downs, Swedes took it upon themselves to reduce public outings.

>> No.12586264
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How is that zombie still alive? It's a medical mystery...

>> No.12586477

If you want I can elaborate on potential pathological mechanisms of the mRNA vaccines. I consider the clinical lack of data as a given, but if you want I can elaborate on what kind of issues are possible and why. Biontech/Pfizer and probably also Moderna already did inform their shareholders so you can already read about much of it. The main issues are immune related and the most severe effect the endocrine system, neurology and the targets of the immun system in general, but other effects can’t be ruled out without the data we are blind.
I don’t think there is organ damage beyond, what’s usual. But we can discuss data. I have the data relating to Influenza and other respiratory viruses.
>academic degree related to health
What a joke there is no clinical relevance and the mutations are pure fear mongering.
If somebody isn’t really infected. Meaning he has t-cell and “native” immunity against hCoVs chances are you will never have a significant antibody titter. If your body doesn’t “think” it’s a significant treat you also won’t measure antibodies too.
And even, if it was serious, it’s very likely you were drained of resources to begin with so it’s even more unlikely your body will keep the energetically expensive antibody levels high for a long time.
I don’t really get your point. Coronaviridae are known for their potential to cross the spices barrier.
And that mostly is related to hyper variability in the region of the genome that corresponds to the spike protein. And that region is quiet long, since the CoV genome in its entirety, thanks to the proof reading mechanism, is the longest RNA virus genome out there. If you read my post again you would understand I’m not only talking about the quasispices referenced as SARS-CoV-2, but also about future CoV zoonotic events. But it still stands for SARS-CoV-2 too.

>> No.12586491

great speech

>> No.12586493

Antibodies are lasting for at least four months according to most studies, even in mildly infected people.

>if it was serious, it’s very likely you were drained of resources to begin with so it’s even more unlikely your body will keep the energetically expensive antibody levels high for a long time.
The most serious cases are the ones showing the longest elevation of antibodies from everything I've read. I'm not even sure what you're really arguing here. You believe Sweden hasn't experienced far more infections than Norway? There's not a single metric to support that.

>> No.12586549

>Antibodies are lasting for at least four months according to most studies, even in mildly infected people
I was talking about the people real-time-qRT-PCR measures as positive, but who aren’t really infected. An “infection” that doesn’t cause symptoms, is so localized it only ever affects a few cells before it’s stoped and if you look at it objectively will never replicate to a level it can infect others in my book isn’t an infection. And most of them won’t have antibodies at lest not to a level that you can assay.
>The most serious cases are the ones showing the longest elevation of antibodies from everything I've read.
I don’t want to anthropomorphize it too much, but their immune system is in “fear”, but even these people will experience rather rapid decline since the resources aren’t there to keep the level up maybe three/four to six/eight months. Healthy peoples immune system will “declare” it as no treat an either not develop significant amounts of antibodies or drop them rapidly.
>You believe Sweden hasn't experienced far more infections than Norway?
I don’t think the data is there to conclude anything beyond whatever it is, it’s a drop in the bucket.

>> No.12586799

>but even these people will experience rather rapid decline since the resources aren’t there to keep the level up maybe three/four to six/eight months.
We'll have to wait and see, but there's already cases that are 8 months post-infection still showing antibodies, and the window I was looking at was only 4 months (February to June).

We analyzed data from 7 participants with asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infection and 51 patients with mildly symptomatic COVID-19 (Table 1). Eight months after their infections, we detected anti-N pan-Ig in 53 (91.4%), anti-N IgG in 15 (25.9%), anti-S IgG in 50 (86.2%), and anti-S1 IgG in 40 (69.0%) (p<0.01) (Table 2). The sVNT found positive neutralizing activity for 31 (53.4%). For female participants, positivity was significantly higher for anti-N IgG (40.0% female vs. 4.3% male; p<0.01), anti-S IgG (94.3% vs. 73.9%; p<0.05), anti-S1 IgG (82.9% vs. 47.8%; p<0.01), and sVNT (68.6% vs. 30.4%; p<0.01). Positivity by PCR for <14 days was associated with a lower rate of positivity for anti-N pan-Ig (50.0% for <14 d vs. 96.0% for >14 d; p<0.01) (Table 2). Logistic regression analysis, for which anti-N IgG ELISA results were excluded because of exceptionally low positivity, indicated that negative results from >2 commercial immunoassays were significantly associated with positivity by PCR for <14 days after adjustment for sex (adjusted odds ratio 11.49; 95% CI 1.45–90.79; p = 0.02)

>> No.12587052

getting my shot wednesay. I'll report back if I grow a second penis

>> No.12587346

Kept alive for long enough so Kamala Harris can take over and YAY FIRST WOMAN PRESIDENT US DEMS DID IT WOOOOO.
And people in the streets will cheer about the death of an old white guy, and nobody will see anything wrong with that.
That's the kind of society we built for ourselves in all these years. Honk honk.

>> No.12587361

>If you want I can elaborate on potential pathological mechanisms of the mRNA vaccines.
Not him, but I'd be interested. Nobody ever talks about them and it's completely unclear to me.
>I don’t think there is organ damage beyond, what’s usual.
I mean, does that matter? The point was that long covid exists and we see that by, e.g., scar tissue in the heart or damaged epithelial cells. Nobody claimed it was novel.
>I don’t really get your point. Coronaviridae are known for their potential to cross the spices barrier
Irrelevant to what I said. There's barely any variations in the spikes among the SARS-nCoV-2 variants, which is why the vaccines work against all known mutations.

>> No.12587958

Thing is they don’t really say, how they determine the infection it’s probably by real-time qRT-PCR, so we should take it with a grain of salt. To my understanding they didn’t, look what antibodies they had before the infection and didn’t look for other CoVs infections before and during the “infection”. On top of that the people, who develop mild symptoms could just be prone to hCoVs infections and their body just because of this tries to keep antibody levels up permanently. The N-gene is almost the same in all hCoVs so that is a clue we are talking of possible immunity due to earlier hCoVs infections. Interesting but inconclusive. Also n=58. Maybe even the people susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 under normal circumstances are just a special sub set and others are usually protected against it due to earlier infections just by t-memory cells and better fine tuned and faster “native” immunity. Maybe just in case the also have some b-memory cells.

>> No.12587998

Not a perfect study, but interesting.

>> No.12588069

I forgot to mention another explanation why antibody response in the beginning of the pandemic was more robust and durable I have linked the thread there

>> No.12588183

>Not him, but I'd be interested. Nobody ever talks about them and it's completely unclear to me.
I will see. It’s a lot to type especially, if you explain it in reasonable detail. Probably I’m going to do it in the fresh thread.
>does it matter
Yea it does, because people are freaking out as, if was the worst thing ever and I have yet to see any data. I just don’t see, why needing a long time to heal after a bilateral pneumonia or a very small set of people developing chronic conditions after infections. Trauma and fear are known to be immune suppressing. So why create fear without solid evidence? In the long term destroying the economy is going to mean a lower level of health care.
>vaccine works against all mutations
In silico?
Here read page 68ff.
and this

>> No.12588210

>after infections
after infections is something new.

>> No.12588256

>Probably I’m going to do it in the fresh thread.
Would be greatly appreciated. By others too I'm sure.
>Yea it does, because people are freaking out as, if was the worst thing ever
Well, it is. Are you saying the organ damage and long recovery times (of recovery happens at all) are not bad, because other viral diseases have the same consequences? Then I'd strongly argue against that reasoning.
>In silico?
In vivo. 19 inactivated variants were directly injected into patients afaik.
>Here read page 68ff.
Thanks, will do.

>> No.12588375

>Would be greatly appreciated. By others too I'm sure.
Thanks for the encouragement.
I personally shied-away from it because it really is a lot of afford to type it all out and it don’t consider it to be terribly relevant. The current understanding of immune biology, proteomics, RNAomics, Genomics and system biology in general isn’t really good enough to make a solid case either way. And I consider the barrier to putting something new into healthy people very high and until recently the certification process agreed with me. For me it’s clearly unethical, but I will elaborate on the case for either side.
>Well, it is.
If have yet to see evidence for tissue scarring being worse than with other infections. Same goes for higher levels of infection related chronic issues compared to earlier years and that is not addressing focus bias. Sweden had the 4 lowest year of overall mortality in the last 11 years, if adjust for demographics. There simply is no evidence.
>In vivo. 19 inactivated variants were directly injected into patients
>Thanks, will do
You’re welcome.

>> No.12588383

What's the most legit vaccine?

>> No.12588928

>If have yet to see evidence for tissue scarring being worse than with other infections
Not that Anon, but are you braindead?
>I don't know evidence of whether it's worse than from other infections
>Anon, that doesn't matter, damage is damage and always bad
>but I have yet to see evidence for why it's worse than other infections
You're literally saying climate change is no big deal because somewhere someone's using a barbecue anyway.

>> No.12588974

The vaccine has no effect on human-to-human transmission, correct?

>> No.12588981

Not known yet. Still studying. Prelim data suggests Pfizer does but need more time

>> No.12589014

Where can I read the latest papers published in the research?

>> No.12589047

The Moderna was shown to make a difference in primates. I believe the Oxford one was shown to only reduce the severity of the infection but it didn't affect viral replication in the upper airway, so it may not do anything to lower transmission rates.

>> No.12589056

NEJM, JAMA, Lancet, BMJ, Nature, Science, CDC

>> No.12589275

You can’t know it. There is no long term data and they haven’t even released the raw data.
>ad hominem
>what about climatology
Be a little more subtle about your derailment efforts. If you have the the data you should provide it. I have made it clear, why there needs to be an evidence base.
Exact source.

>> No.12589291

Those are journals, this is the source.

>> No.12589292

Sorry, too lazy to come up with articles that I read weeks ago. Just google Moderna primate study, I'm pretty sure it also discussed the Oxford vaccine.

>> No.12589322

>Be a little more subtle about your derailment efforts
Go fuck yourself, you are indeed braindead. Otherwise you wouldn't argue in circles.

>> No.12589461

>opens the library
>here it is, I’m certain
Ever heard anything on methodology? Because claiming something without evidence will certainly not go anywhere.
I’ve read the articles too. And i’ve linked it why it doesn’t mean anything, here.
Even they are telling their investors there is a very significant chance non of it will work out as planned.
If you are to lazy to discuss science, why are you here claiming stuff?
>more ad hominem
I’m mean than point out the mistake, if I’m so wrong. Provide an argument or a source. What should I argue, if you’re just throwing around insults?

>> No.12589686

>point out the mistake
I did. You're too fucking dumb it seems. Again:
>X is not proven to be worse than Y
>answer: yeah, but that doesn't mean X isn't bad
>but X is not proven to be worse than Y
That's you. Pure clueless whataboutism.

>> No.12589825

If you think it’s not significantly worse than Influenza or the other flu like infections, than we agree. That means we should roll, back all the things that have no evidence base and carefully test out vaccines before we do a mass experiments with humans.

>> No.12589862

>I’ve read the articles too. And i’ve linked it why it doesn’t mean anything, here.
That's nice, but I'll stick with my own biology experience when judging their efficacy.

>> No.12590042

>That's nice, but I'll stick with my own biology experience when judging their efficacy.
If you are personally involved in the experiments or somehow convinced that you have some insight not available to others that’s fine. But you will understand no scientist would be able to give any credit to claims about, what you have figured out in your own experiments or thoughts unless you can provide rigorous proof.

>> No.12590084

We have to lock down until we flatten the curve
>new strain
We have to have even stricter lock downs
>new strain
We have to ban travel from X country

Rinse. Repeat. "New Normal" is a violation of your freedom.

>> No.12590214

My issue is that almost all of the measures go against pre 2020 consensus of science and now they claim everything changed. If have yet to see evidence for a significant impact of these measures, which almost all are blatant violations of basic human rights.
Now they are basically immunizing it against any possibility to prove it wrong with ever new claims about strains with higher transmissibility, which can’t be shown to have any clinical relevance, but can be used as “proof” all the measures are working.
And many scientists do know it, there is no question. Sadly just a minority will talk openly about it and most just mumble something about tenure or the job and keep their head down.

>> No.12590235

So what are you implying?
>guys let's crash out economy for reasons

>> No.12590284

Some are making a lot of money. There absolutely should be an independent legal investigation into it, why this is happening despite a lack of evidence,

>> No.12590313

No, I'm saying you argue like a stupid idiot by going in circles. It doesn't fucking matter if it's worse or not, get that into your thick skull.
Are you fucking saying if covid-19 causes balls to explode that's a non-issue if it can also happen with the flu?
Pathetic troll.

>> No.12590371

>balls explode
That’s not happening. There are case studies into some claiming testicular pain as a first symptom, but there is nothing conclusive and in fact next to no evidence. They haven’t even found it in ejaculate and due to it being especially immun privileged that’s were you would find it if something was happening.

>> No.12590400

Also soft tissue can swell during infections due to cytokines and other parts of the immune system. And it can happen somewhere else, where no viral replication is going on. It’s not unheard of.

>> No.12590435

Why do masks and social distancing keep away the flu but not the coronavirus? What are the concrete differences between them that explain this?

>> No.12590444

Clinton couldn't hide getting a blowjob from a secretary, I doubt there is some some international conspiracy.
Feel free to prove me right or at least give some insight on what you really mean.

>> No.12590484

We already have vaccines for influenza, influenza has poor survival time on surfaces compared to SARS-CoV-2, higher levels of pre-existing immunity to influenza, influenza probably isn't as efficient at binding to sialic acid compared to SARS-CoV-2's ability to bind to ACE2 (so SARS-CoV-2 probably infects with fewer virions), SARS-CoV-2 may aerosolize at a higher rate, longer incubation period for COVID-19 compared to Flu during which a person can unknowingly infect others (generally around 5 days, compared to 2 days).

>> No.12590526

I’m not saying there is a conspiracy and maybe we are just unlucky and have people without a clue around our politicians.
However things started in Germany (at least in the west). They had first infected people at the hospital in Munich and everybody from the top of leading health agency to the guy leading the infectious disease unit at the hospital said it was comparable the a moderate saisonal flu. Suddenly approximately one month later their tune changed and they panicked, maybe because of the pictures from Italy, which is known for their rather questionable health care and is known to be unable to properly deal with patients during flu season. I feel like it spread form there to rest of the west. Maybe it was just a chain reaction of panic, but all the people disagreeing with it no matter, how much credentials they had to their name were defamed and shut out from any public discourse.

>> No.12590545

The leadership of countries should be declared mentally unfit and put in a closed psychiateric ward for the duration of any pandemic or endemic viral outbreak to prevent bad policy decisions.

>> No.12590547


>We already have vaccines for influenza

>higher levels of pre-existing immunity to influenza

These two aren't valid. Both applied in 2019 and people caught the flu as always.

>> No.12590565

>Both applied in 2019 and people caught the flu as always.
Of course. No one said they're 100%. Immunity wanes, vaccines don't always match the strains, etc, but partial immunity may be enough when taking all of the other factors into account. I didn't even mention there may be competitive inhibition of influenza by SARS-CoV-2. Other respiratory viruses can out-compete each other.

>> No.12590592

Thanks for typing out an actual answer rather than some garbage shitpost.

>> No.12590594

>We already have vaccines for influenza
Which isn’t really effective in most years and sometimes doesn’t work at all.
>influenza has poor survival time on surfaces compared to SARS-CoV-2
We aren’t talking about an Adenovirus or Novovirus here. The studies suggest approximately 1 in 100 infections might be smear infections with SARS-CoV-2.
So it’s not a relevant route of transmission in both.
>probably isn't as efficient at binding to sialic acid compared to SARS-CoV-2's ability to bind to ACE2
I doubt it Sialic acid is very decently binding to surface proteins of some Influenza strains and is more common than ACE-2. If you add that Influenza has HA surface proteins that make them easily stick to cells, I think there is little doubt it’s at least as easily transmissible and probably more transmissible.
>SARS-CoV-2 may aerosolize at a higher rate,
>which a person can unknowingly infect others (generally around 5 days, compared to 2 days).
We discussed it in the last thread https://boards.4channel.org/sci/thread/12546301/is-the-cure-worse-than-the-disease#bottom
Basic gist asymptomatic transmission not significantly different from zero. (Case study was wrong)
Presymptomatic transmission rare and insignificant.
I might disagree on some stuff, but your post was a quality post and an attempt to honestly discuss things. Thanks.

>> No.12590599


But the competitive inhibition can only occur if you are already positive in corona, right?

>> No.12590659

>>SARS-CoV-2 may aerosolize at a higher rate,
Trillions of dollars thrown into a global bonfire and we don't have data on how it spreads.
It's a joke

>> No.12590702

I mean there are studies, but it’s not really something you can translate to actual patterns. You would need people in the lab and that won’t be done. It’s already hard to figure out, who can be infected in the first place.

>> No.12590780

>UK defines a COVID death as tested positive up to 28 days before day of death

Serious question, is this a useless metric? It seems like excess deaths would be a better metric to look at but that obviously has its own problems at the moment (pressure on hospitals, effect of lockdown)

>> No.12590934

That's my understanding, and I'm not sure if it's even the case with SARS-CoV-2 and influenza. Sometimes respiratory viruses co-infect and complicate symptoms, other times one essentially protects against another.

>> No.12591005

You are either unbelievably bad at reading comprehension or plain trolling. Waste of time.

>> No.12591314
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Useless for medical science, very useful for politics.

>> No.12591429
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>I don’t think there is organ damage beyond, what’s usual. But we can discuss data. I have the data relating to Influenza and other respiratory viruses.

I'm interested. Any good literature or meta studies?

>> No.12591458

Shut Up skynet

>> No.12591472


>> No.12591475

Can someone confirm to me that the Pfizer vaccine has given a mexican doctor myelitis and a bunch of new people Bell's palsy (not talking about those original 4 from the pictures leaked)?

Why isn't the media covering these serious side effects now. Is there any other ones i'm not aware of?

>> No.12592252

I don't know about the UK, but in the US comorbidities are taken well into account: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm#Comorbidities

>> No.12592300

What number does the news and politicians report to the public?

>> No.12592305

That would depend on the outlet and the politician.

>> No.12592319

>it was comparable the a moderate saisonal flu
Everyone wearing masks has practically killed the seasonal flu this year.
Corona manages to infect people at large through the air anyway.
Doesn't really seem comparable in the least, despite it looking extremely similar at first glance.

>> No.12592375

That’s a good layman ad hoc argument, but that’s not supported by the R 0 and exceptionally short generation time ofInfluenza on top of that Influenza is very well adjusted to human hosts and most often mostly there aren’t any severe/moderate symptoms and people can’t tell the few symptoms they have means anything at all. Flu just seems low if you adjust for R 0 estimated to be 1,5-2,0 some put it above that, but we are talking about a generation time of 2,5-2,6 days much less than SARS-CoV-2. SARS-CoV-2 R 0 isn’t really known, especially since you can’t just naively use PCR, but most put it between 1,6-2,5 for flu we have it much more precisely with culturing of virus. A large part is Chinese data is mostly huge cities that’s even more messing with R 0 in comparison to the overall population. There is currently no evidence the “flu” would disappear and certainly the same goes for the other viral infections. It’s sampling bias. If people are sick they don’t come to the sentinel physicians anymore, but go straight to the SARS-CoV-2 testing.

>> No.12592408

For Germany the number of people dying from and with SARS-CoV-2 isn’t separately reported. But we have had pathologist publicly speaking about the fact that more than 2/3 and probably much more would have died even, if they weren’t infected with SARS-CoV-2. Average age is 84 which is significantly above life expectancy and on average they have slightly less than 3 serious other issues.

>> No.12592445

>There is currently no evidence the “flu” would disappear
Where do you pull a bullshit phrase like that from?
It's really not only Chinese data either.
There has been exactly ONE flu infection in the municipality I live in this year so far (mid-size West Germany), and we usually have hundreds of them.
Japan usually has tens of thousands of flu infections every week during December. December 2020 saw weekly flu infections in the two digit range.
Meanwhile Corona keeps ravaging up both places hard. It seems blatantly obvious which disease has the higher [math]R_0[/math]
The only bias I see here is 2020/2021. Which is a pretty massive bias, but not of the type you are suggesting.

>> No.12592481

There are papers that warned about this stuff. If you do mass testing for Rhinoviruses by real-time-qRT-PCR on everybody, who enters the hospital, you would conclude there is a massive Rhinovirus pandemic going on. Influenza rushes in and rushes out. Most people, who are in the hospital due to Influenza pneumonia (mostly it’s secondary) will never test positive for Influenza since hospital admission is long after symptoms onset and viral shedding. The Influenza deaths and illnesses are there that’s the people, who get false positives or wonder they absolutely had SARS-CoV-2 symptoms, but a negative test. And go on to claim to their friends that the false positive rate most be extremely high.

>> No.12592917

I don’t know of any studies suggesting it is worse. Sadly I don’t know of any meta analysis. I gather it from comparing the pathological evaluations of SARS-CoV-2 related deaths with those of other respiratory infections resulting in ARDS (Acute Respiratory Distress Syndrome) and death.

>> No.12592938

I can add something where you can dive into the little literature that’s there on the topic https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262872490_Post_mortem_findings_in_fatal_H1N1_infection
Look at their references.

>> No.12592983

>false positive rate must be extremely high
false negative

>> No.12593282
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>100% of time if symptomatic
>70-80% of time if asymptomatic.
Surely this is bullshit, right, or else we would've know far before now.

>> No.12593357

No source. While it’s true that smoking is bad for your lung most smokers don’t die due to lung related issues. So, if you look at the average smokers lung (huge deviation, since some only smoke few cigarettes and some can deal quiet well with it) it wouldn’t be surprising not to see a level of damage similar to somebody, who died due to some respiratory illness. It’s so dishonest.
Clearly aimed at simple minded people without knowledge about evidence based medicine. Maybe somebody should tell him/Twitter fear is immune suppressing. And we have a much better evidence base for it than for any of the strange stuff he supports.

>> No.12593942

CHADOx1 with lower efficacy but based on traditional vaccines

Pfizer for the mRNA based vaccines.

>> No.12593947

Shock horror, society will exploit anything for money revelation.

>> No.12593952

UK excess deaths, covid hospital admissions and deaths... all up. Beyond norms.

Discussed in linked threads in OP.
Bell's Palsy in line with general occurrence in non-vaccinated persons - US

>> No.12593957

This was always the nuance.
Corona isn't a flesh eating virus.
But it's transmission and treatment if it develops severely - in ostensibly vulnerable persons - is legitimately horrendous and in addition completely overwhelms healthcare infrastructure.

So you do have the argument
>But they were gonna die anyway.
Which brings us into the realm of pragmatism, morality, ethics and politics.

>> No.12594114

>Corona does/doesn’t eat flesh
The nuance on this one is that SARS-CoV-2 is a virus and can’t “eat”, but is still an obligat intracellular parasite, so it kind of does and kind of doesn’t eat “flesh”, however that doesn’t mean much.
>in vulnerable people is horrendous
See I disagree on that. My nuance is that some people just die and they don’t have anything significant before. But for quiet a few that isn’t the case, but the merchants of fear claim it’s somehow a much more terrible death, than what’s usual and we can go into the specifics, but I don’t see how this can be defended.
>overwhelming medical infrastructure
That’s not really the case. We see that our hospitals have been destroyed over years and there are huge problems with third party actors sucking money out of the system. Currently we aren’t witnessing anything beyond normal. And the studies already quoted in this thread show the insignificance of non pharmaceutical measures.
>gonna die anyway
>morals, ethics and decisions
Yes and I think that measures not based on evidence, meaning we don’t know, if they work, shouldn’t be considered, if the results of said actions are known to be absolutely crushing in every aspect.
People can’t stand by their loved ones during the last part of their time here.
People are isolated and bombarded with fear that isn’t based in any evidence, which is known to be harmful to the immune system.
Our economy is destroyed to the point we will soon only have global monopolies and the servants and owners of them are going to be the only people, who aren’t fully dependent on the government.
Children can’t see other faces and it’s a known positive factor in their development.
People are dying because they can’t be in contact with their loved ones. Loneliness is a scientifically proven factor for an elevated risk of dead in elderly.

>> No.12594668

No they aren’t and you don’t have any source.