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12512115 No.12512115 [Reply] [Original] [archived.moe]

Friendly reminder that if you study biology then you're practically a humanities major. You're not a real scientist

>> No.12512116

>>12512115
No one asked.

>> No.12512147

friendly reminder that if you're still in undergrad you're not a real scientist no matter what program you're in.

>> No.12512154

>>12512115
Reminder Engineering the the only part of STEM that isnt utter bullshit

>> No.12512165

>>12512115
Friendly reminder that mathematics is just applied autism.

>> No.12512171

Biology is literally the biggest and most diverse field, duffus
Agriculture, medicine, virology, immunology, zoology, and so on. Every creature, from micro to macro, falls under biology - it's both the oldest and largest field of all.

The hell you mean you can simplify it as "just" applied chemistry

>> No.12512173

Where's the version where they are all under the shoulder of philosophy?

>> No.12512174

>>12512115
>Psychology is just applied biology

My dude...

>> No.12512183

>>12512171
Insert bell curve. Vertical axis: How well practitioners understand what is going on. Seems to map well upon initial consideration, with chemistry and physics at the peak, Bio being slightly handwavy(with damn good excuse, availablility of uninvented tools), and mathematics being entirely handwave along with sociology.

>> No.12512205

>>12512183
If you think that we who study physics understand shit, you are out of your mind.

Physicists literally coined the term "just shut up and calculate" because everything past the atomic level (chemistry) defies classical mechanics and just exists as arbitrary numbers or probabilities. We know how things work, we don't know how to visualize it

>> No.12512209

>>12512205
lol I have a sneaking suspicion that mathematicians understand physics better than half the physicists.

>> No.12512214

>>12512205
Never claimed the magnitude of the curve!

>> No.12512235

>>12512115
I dont study humans.

>> No.12512267

>>12512115
Fuck off. Biologists are based.

t. mathematician

>> No.12512488
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12512488

kneel.

>> No.12512513

>>12512154
Physicists and mathematicians work as engineers in industry.
Source: Im a physicist and work with other physicists and engineers, we call each other engineers. No one cares about your official degree.

>> No.12512519

>>12512183
A complex system cannot be understood by understanding the parts. This is why knowing chemistry doesn't make you a biologist. The chain of "applied x" is s lie because complexity.

>> No.12512522

>>12512115
>Implying there aren't interdisciplinary fields that combine these, like biophysics.
This is how you know either OP is in high school, or a troll.

>> No.12512534

>>12512519
>A complex system cannot be understood by understanding the parts.
Holy fucking shit. Ok, I get you whining about my wildly inaccurate bell curve idea that was only ever throwing shade at mathematicians, but THAT phrase? You are an imbecile. Your second sentence is coherent, but in combination with the first is entirely specious.
Fucking hell.

>> No.12512579

>>12512534
How is the first phrase stupid? Its completely true. You cant understand complexity by understanding the parts e.g you can't understand biology by understanding physics. No matter how much you "think" about things, the complex has more information than the parts

>> No.12512583

>>12512579
How to understand a complex system: study the entire system AND its components. Both are required. One of them is the fundamentals. Guess where you start.

>> No.12512589

>>12512583
Exactly, think about how you find a fault in an engine, for instance, consider the parts in relation to their overall function, the generation of torque.

>> No.12512605

>>12512589
That's precisely the thing, though. Understanding the components of a complex system is PRECISELY how you understand the system.

>> No.12512618

>>12512513
>we call each other engineers
That's because you don't live in a country with proper engineering licensure, faggot. It's illegal to call yourself an engineer without an accredited degree in any country that's worth a damn.

>> No.12512626

>>12512605
Yes, I'm agreeing with you, I'm not the anon disagreeing. I was just trying to rework your point into an example for the other anon to interperate.

>> No.12512633

>>12512605
Without knowing the purpose of the overall system you couldn't have determined what about the components of important. Remind me of the essay on the difference between a molecular biologist and biochemist as they try to understand how a car factory works

>> No.12512638

>>12512626
Stupid useless no ID board.

>> No.12512643

>>12512638
Agreed, although their is a posters metric, it isn't that helpful.

>> No.12512645

>>12512633
Source? That sounds like an interesting read.

>> No.12512668

>>12512645
Read both essays. I think you can tell what the author of each studied.

http://www2.biology.ualberta.ca/locke.hp/dougandbill.htm

My real point was that biology has the problem where our data sets and number of interacting parts is on such a scale that no matter how well you try to define the behaviour of any singular part the whole thing will be indescribably complex for something to try and simulate it. If one had perfect descriptions of every part that would be great, but it wouldn't tell us how the whole thing palys together. Which is why geneticists exist, the information encoding is what fucked up modeling biological systems desu.

>> No.12512672

>>12512668
That's exactly my stance as a biogerontologist. The metabolic pathways are so incredibly complex, they're past the scope of human bioengineering as it stands. As such, if we want biogerontological protocols to combat the pathologies of senescence, we should concentrate on the treatment of symptoms with nanomedicine, rather than a complex systems approach to research.

>> No.12512675

>>12512668
>>12512672
Also, thank you for the reading material.

>> No.12512690

>>12512672
I do biophysics precisely because I think we need a shit load of basic research into the complex systems level research m that's where we get the paradigms that allow for pathology evaluation on wider scales. Nanoparticle tech is a direct result of this research relationship. I mean we just discovered that almost 85% of the human proteom can phase seperate and barely understand it. We need both to succeed but we aren't able to just do one or the other like a lot of pure physicists think.

Also nanostuff is kinda eh imo. It's hella sketch to use nanoparticles that we have no idea the real effects of. Even the "well tested" stuff is kinda sketch imo.

>>12512675
No problem, helped me understand a lot of communication issues I had cross field.

>> No.12512693

>>12512589
Retarded, an engine is not a complex system.

>> No.12512695

>>12512605
Wrong! Thats only true for simple systems like a computer or car engine, not for complex systems.

>> No.12512706

>>12512618
We all have degrees but informally call each other engineers because we all work as engineers. Similar to how mathematician writing code at a company in a high level capacity is a software engineers. If you practice engineering you are an engineer. We are not writing it down on id tags or linkdin CVs or anything, its just infornal talk.

>> No.12512722

>>12512690
That's true, and is largely the case I think most don't consider, certainly when it comes to the applied aspects of those fields. Reality isn't a textbook, systems don't exist in isolation, mycorrhizal networks being an extreme example of that in agroforestry and arboriculture. Another being the futurist pipe dream of "mind uploading", without taking things like the gut–brain axis into account. Understanding in relation to context is everything, even in the hard sciences.

>> No.12512746

>>12512693
It is a "simplification analogy", referring to the act of understanding parts in relation to their system, it doesn't need to be a complex system, nor should it as that would defeat the aims of "simplification".
Also, that's a matter of context, if you were looking at that system with the purview of understanding quantum effects in relation to say, it's efficiency, then it would be a complex system. Context matters.

>> No.12512748

>>12512695 see: >>12512746's second half.

>> No.12512755

>>12512746
Your simplification is retarded considering that the topic is complexity. You cant simplify complexity. An engine is not a simple-complex system.

>> No.12512760

>>12512755
That's not my aim, re-read what I just wrote, I explained my aim.

>> No.12512768

>>12512760
Quantum effects in a car engine are absolutely irrelevant. You are confusing complexity with detail

>> No.12512776

>>12512768
Again, you're displaying your disgraceful reading comprehension. That has nothing to do with my analogy, that was my explanation of the need for context. Now, do as I ask, re-read. I really hope I don't need to flatly point out the obvious to you.

>> No.12512786

>>12512776
Stop projecting. I have been biting my tongue for awhile trying not to lecture you: You cannot simplify complexity, no you can't give simple systems as analogies, no, describing the quantum state of every quark in a car engine is not what complexity means, no a complex system is not a particularly less-simple simple system. Its a different category.

>> No.12512787
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12512787

>>12512116
Kek, this.
I been lurking /sci/ for fucking years. The turnover rate of sophomore and junior year newfags calling themselves scientists or mathematicians has been increasing exponentially towards infinity.

>> No.12512788

>>12512787
>>12512147
Replied to the wrong post but they both work.

>> No.12512791

>>12512115
*unleashes viruses and untold abominations unto the earth*
YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE TO SAY "SORRY"!

>> No.12512800

>>12512791
*counters your abominations with an army of golems*
Robots BIATCH!

>> No.12512811

>>12512800
*Thardus would like to know your location*

>> No.12512818

>>12512786
LMAO, "Mister Expert" can't even read.
The aim of my analogy is to:
>... understand parts in relation to their system.
Neither explicitly referring to complex systems, or not. As such, it doesn't need to be a complex system.
Also, many things, engines included can be considered complex systems based on difficulty of modelling [1].
You didn't "bite" anything, you pretentious cretin. You're the retard, projecting his moronicity and myopia on others.
[1]
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complex_system
That's right, it even tells you that in the Wiki introduction, you "expert" you.

>> No.12512828

>>12512818
An engine is not a "complex system" whatsoever. A living being is complex. The weather is complex.

>> No.12512832

>>12512828
>A quantum system wouldn't be complex, just because it happens to be within an engine.
What're you, a vitalist? It's nice too see you still aren't reading though, look at the examples listed in that Wiki intro.

>> No.12512844

>>12512828
>Engines aren't complex systems!
>What do you mean, what's the torque spec on the head bolts? What's that supposed to mean?
An engineered system is inherently complex. Just because you've never seen a blueprint in your life doesn't mean they don't exist.

>> No.12512847

>>12512844
This is actually a good point I didn't think about.

>>12512828
Go ACTUALLY read this:
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systems_engineering

>> No.12512849

>>12512847
Just imagine saying that shit to a drag team. Begging for a wrench to the face.

>> No.12512855

>>12512849
This is exactly why I detest this "field purity" bullshit.

>> No.12512857

>>12512855
Still funny as mathematician bait.

>> No.12512861

>>12512857
Yeah, but this anon seems to have taken it to heart.

>> No.12512868

>>12512115
mathematicians and physicists should be below the sociologists, they contribute nothing to society except stories like "black holes from LHC" or "parallel universe in antarctica" its sad because there was a time when this profession was respected, now it's a bunch of hooligans trying to make a name for themselves and academia is as corrupt. look into bagandov affair and the reproducibility crisis

>> No.12512869

>>12512868
How's that MSM koolaid retard?

>> No.12512873

>>12512800
>>12512791
*explodes with the force of nitroglycerin*
allahu ackbar fuckers!

>> No.12512874

>>12512868
>I don't know what applied mathematics and applied physics is.
Go jump off a bridge, you oxygen thief.

>> No.12512880

>>12512873
NOBODY FUCKING ASKED YOU CHEMISTRY FUCK OFF!

>> No.12512892

>>12512873
>muh biology
>>12512800
>muh physics
>>12512791
>muh chemistry
Time to put all three of you in your place.
*unleashes a nano-machine hoard of composite bio-reactive materials*

I win.

>> No.12512895

>>12512892
>combinative sciences
>my disgust
Kys senpai.

>> No.12512898

>>12512892
Nanobiotechnology is the true victor.

>> No.12512902

>>12512895
Nothing but jealously and copium.

>> No.12512906

>>12512868
based

mathematics and physics is no more different than theology, they don't follow the scientific method anymore and don't use empiricism but people like to play it off as it's a science. an engineer is worth more than 1000 mathematicians. 50s and 60s are over, these were the times where every men who had an education was in engineering, now you got a bunch of zoomers obsessed with popsci shit and where the majority go into physics and mathematics than engineer. it's the explanatory reason why scientific discoveries have come to a halt. fucking boomers man, not only did they destroy the economy they also destroy science

>> No.12512909

>>12512895
Copelet.
SEETHING.

>> No.12512911

>>12512906
More studies are published nowadays than back then, you pseud.

>> No.12512916

>>12512874
>implying everything mathematicians and physicists do is applied
retard, most of the field is abstract. the only parts where it's applied is at the other side of the hallway in engineering class

>> No.12512923

>>12512909
Sneed.

>> No.12512925

>>12512916
Then don't use blanket condemnation. Also, aspects of the so-called "pure" often find application:
>https://math.stackexchange.com/questions/280530/can-you-provide-me-historical-examples-of-pure-mathematics-becoming-useful
Ergo, both are important, the applied and the esoteric.

>> No.12512927

>>12512923
*cringe*

>> No.12512937

>>12512791
>when the biologist bulli levels reach max capacity
Truly a terrifying and doomed world. Pls remember to no bulli ur biologists.

>> No.12512940

>>12512927
Baste.

>> No.12513020

>>12512115
Math is unironically the easiest major if you're kind of lazy and at least slightly autistic.

>> No.12513023

>>12512115
also worth mentioning you are not a real scientist if you're not actually employed as one, if you are an undergraduate you are not anything

>> No.12513025

>>12513020
Lab isn't that much effort. Also, it can be enjoyable.

>> No.12513028

>>12513023
It's not about employment, it's about activity. If you aren't engaged in research, you aren't a scientist.

>> No.12513037

>>12513028
Nice try Mr. Grad student

>> No.12513049

>>12513037
No, listen here, you're a scientist if you're engaged in the scientific process, by definition.

>> No.12513053

>>12513049
I'm not going to listen to some doctoratelet

>> No.12513061

>>12513053
Blow it out your ass.

>> No.12513064

>>12512115
>Fields arranged by schizophrenia
ftfy
>>12512488
cope

>> No.12513065

>>12512115
What is sociology?

>> No.12513103

>>12513064
>Fields arranged by schizophrenia
Not far off:
>Alternatively, there has been an especially large contribution of people with schizoid symptoms to science and theoretical areas of knowledge, including maths, physics, economics, etc. At the same time, people with SPD are helpless at many practical activities due to their symptoms.
Intro of:
>https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorder

>> No.12513216

>>12512174
>you have a soul and are more than the sum of your parts

bro...

>> No.12513220

>>12513216
Yeah, but that part is probably due to cumulative quantum effects manifesting as the phenomena of consciousness, which would be more physics than biology.

>> No.12513656

>>12512115
Biology is not only the only real science, but the only real philosophy. There is nothing that matters in the universe other than life. If you disagree, you must be in a hurry to be nonliving. I advise you to get that way.

>> No.12513658

>>12512115
Also math isn't a science at all.

>> No.12513664

>>12512171
I'd like to see them try to reduce ecology to chemistry.

>> No.12514110

>>12512115
Chem PhD student here. I hate seeing this retarded fucking image on the internet being passed off as some profound discovery. Literally "I fucking LOVE science" the image. You realize that this idea is hundreds of years old, right? And the funniest part is that the people posting this image know fuck all about any of the god damn topics listed here.

>> No.12514162

>>12512115
Oh well. I'll continue to get tax-based funding for my fake science.

>> No.12514174

>>12512183
except IQ, which is 100% accurate

>> No.12514175

>>12512115
I have a math professor who has this strip on his home page.

>> No.12514255

i dont want to be the hippy hold hands and be nice guy, but for fucks sake. we arent eight. hopefully. if you are, go to bed. its late.... whats with this tribalism shit though? some parts of some fields might be useless *cough*taxonomy*cough* but at the end of the day were all just data monkeys. and if you must be tribal, unite against our less autistic peers who will out breed us with there fancy social and communication skills and lack of rock/bone/flower collections

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