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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1236550 No.1236550 [Reply] [Original]

Where, given that he invites us to question everything, is Dawkins’s own critique of science?

>> No.1236584

Presumably he got done critiquing science when he was in middle school, like most of us.

Seriously. All science is is just a fancy word for "use your eyes".

>> No.1236591

I'm curious as to why a man who is so intelligent would blatantly insult billions of theists.

It just doesn't seem like a smart move to me.

>> No.1236599

>>1236591
Not theists in general.

Just those that believe in fuck-tarded religions like Christianity, Islam, etc. So, religion.

>> No.1236601

>>1236591
I'm curious as to where the "dawkins is rude and arrogant" notion comes from. I've only ever seen him be courteous and respectful when dealing with these people.

>> No.1236602

>>1236591

Because he doesn't give a single fuck.

That's Richard Dawkins for you. He *could* give a fuck, but he's too busy being all chill and cool.

>> No.1236608

>>1236591
>>passive-aggressive threat

>> No.1236609
File: 8 KB, 400x259, facepalm.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1236609

>>1236599
>Not theists
>Just those that believe in fuck-tarded religions like Christianity, Islam

PLZ GO

>> No.1236614

>>1236609
>implying all theists follow a religion

Please, go. You're just making a fool of yourself.

>> No.1236618

>>1236591

If psychologically damaged people were running the world and invading countries because voices in their head told them to, I'd insult them too.

>> No.1236620

>>1236591
See, saying truth is never popular. Tell an idiot that he is stupid and he totally loses his shit.

Tell a bunch of retards that their believes make them look stupid and they go up like a nitroglyserine-doped pile of shit.

>> No.1236628

>>1236601
>I'm curious as to where the "dawkins is rude and arrogant" notion comes from.
people don't like it when their worldview is questioned, no matter how nice you do it, you always will be "rude"

>> No.1236629

>>1236550
Science is self-criticising, that's what makes it science.

>> No.1236634
File: 45 KB, 536x516, lol.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1236634

>>1236614
>Implying theists don't believe in a god which was at some point, if not now, part of a religion.
>My face when you began digging your own grave

>> No.1236647

>>1236634

Zeus. Apollo. Mercury. Aphrodite. Athena. Odin. Thor. Baldr. I could continue...

>> No.1236660

>>1236634
> I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about
I'm not even gonna argue, I'm just gonna tell you to look up the definition of "theism".

>> No.1236681

>>1236601

It is true, Dawkins is always polite and articulate in his choice of words...
He just has this... Thing. I think someone said passive-aggressive, and that might be it. Just an arrogant air about him.
I pretty much agree with all of his criticisms of organized religion, and his arguments for atheism are pretty much bullet-proof, but whenever I see two minutes of live-interview with him, I just want to get up and smack him around. It's uncanny.

>> No.1236687

>>1236647
>Doesn't realised they are still part of their respective religions, just not mainstream religions any more

>> No.1236688

>>1236681
I have never experienced this.

>> No.1236693

>>1236634
you now realize you can easily believe that a god exists without subscribing to any fucking religion ever formed

>> No.1236701

>>1236681
It's because he's digging their grave for them, then gives them the gun to finish the job.
It's douchebaggery to expect the other guy to do something when he's sat his whole life doing NOTHING.

>> No.1236703

>>1236681
I see what you mean.

It's like someone who feels they have achieved enlightenment and has let it get to them yeah?

Or that general feeling.

>> No.1236705

>>1236681
It's probably because he talks like Harry Potter and looks like he didn't go through puberty

>> No.1236708

>>1236705
Puberty is over rated.

>> No.1236717

>>1236708
Hipster trash

>> No.1236719

>>1236693
Deism is a cop out answer.

Either way what would it matter what initiated the big bang? Quantum fluctuations, anti matter - matter annihilations ar a deity.

It's a moot point, and no matter what, we are where we are and arguing about the nitty gritty details of how we got here is energy wasted.

>> No.1236728

>>1236719
Say I believe in a God.
He governs us, but doesn't really give a flying fuck.
He likes to mess with us a lot, from what I experience.

^What religion would I be subscribing to?

>> No.1236735

>>1236703
I think you nailed it. He seems so fukken close-minded. Of course, that isn't surprising, seeing as he has probably heard all those bullshit ID- and creationist-arguments over 9000 times before, but still.
It's that thing people do, where they are just waiting for the other person to stop speaking, so they can roll out their counterargument.
It pisses me off.

Also the Harry Potter thing.

>> No.1236736

>>1236728

>^What religion would I be subscribing to?

I have a better idea: Instead of subscribing to some religion, think for yourself.

It's called Deism. It's belief in God + Reason.

>> No.1236738

>>1236701
He was a biologist. He did not do "nothing" his whole life, it is only in recent times that he's become a "mainstream atheist."

>> No.1236742

To conclude this thread:

Belief in gods is irrational and dangerous. Anyone who does so is mentally retarded to some extent.

Having no belief in gods is rational, progressive and good for humanity.

ithanyou

>> No.1236743

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

>> No.1236758

>>1236736

One cannot believe in a god and have reason.

It is reasonable to assume, given the current evidence, that there is probably no gods. Therefore, the current reasonable, rational argument is: there probably are no gods.

Your argument is contradictory and misleading, i.e. wholly wrong.

>> No.1236759

>>1236743
You know just as well as I do that this only works for a good and loving God.

>> No.1236761

>>1236742
Belief in specific gods, like the gods of a religion, is irrational and dangerous.

Belief in a deistic god is not. It's about as rational as atheistic or pantheistic beliefs.

I'm an atheist, but still.

>> No.1236765

>>1236742
That's hard to demonstrate though.

>> No.1236769

>>1236761

Believing in a god and deism are the same thing.

deism = theism = believing in gods

just different roots

>> No.1236770

>>1236765
America.
There you go, son.
Demonstrated.

>> No.1236772

>>1236728
Christianity by the sounds of it.

>> No.1236779

>>1236772
No.
Christianity has a good, loving, almighty, omnipresent and omniscient god.
That is FAR from my definition.

>> No.1236780

>>1236769
Not really...

Many people that call themselves deistic today essentially think "A god created the universe, but that's it. No miracles or any of that shit. There isn't even necessarily an afterlife."

>> No.1236782

>>1236770
>Scientific capital of the world.

>> No.1236783

>>1236779
No, Christianity has a bi-polar all-knowing all-powerful god that also somehow "learns" from his "mistakes."

>> No.1236799

>>1236779
Thery say he's all loving and shit.

Do you see a shred of evidence for that?

I say again, does the christian god do what he's supposed or does he do this

He governs us, but doesn't really give a flying fuck.
He likes to mess with us a lot, from what I experience.

>> No.1236806

>>1236782

I think you mean: despite being the scientific capital of the world.

America has the money, that's all.

>> No.1236808

>>1236799
Yes, but that does not make my God the christian God.
That's like saying the Chrisitans believe in Thor ._.

>> No.1236809

>>1236799
>>1236743

>> No.1236813

>>1236808

But you still believe in *a* god, and that's wrong.

>> No.1236816

>>1236550

Well whoopsie doo maybe just maybe it coulkd be because science basically stands for self-criticism, ie. correcting old theories when new contradictory information is found

god you're idiots, jesus sucking muhammed shitting elephants

>> No.1236817
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1236817

>> No.1236819

>>1236813
Hypothetical, does the word ring a goddamn bell?

>> No.1236820

>>1236813
Not necessarily. Deistic gods are fine and dandy, it's theistic gods that are retarded.

>> No.1236822

>>1236761
Proof pl0x. Many peole live religious lives and it doesn't hurt anyone. Invalid rule
.>>1236634
Perfectly possible to be theistic and nonreligious. STop being a lightweight.
>>1236681
>implying "Delusion" is polite
>>1236742
>waaahhh I just want to disqualify peoplewho disagree with me.
>>1236738
>implying Dawkins is mainstream

>> No.1236829

>>1236822
>implying delusion isn't polite when the alternative is hallucinating dimwit

>> No.1236831
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1236831

>>1236822
>implying believing anything without a shred of evidence is logical and not against the scientific method

>> No.1236837
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1236837

>>1236808
They fucking should

Think about it, the christian god swans into our universe and goes "oh my I have a grand idea I'll make some people to serve me, and if they don't I'll kill them"

Where as Thor, gained his godly powers by winning a drinking contest with Odin, thats pretty awesome right?

He drank a fucking ocean.

Thor

DRANK

THE MOTHER FUCKING OCEAN

Then became god of thunder, and kill a snake so long it could wrap around the world.

THOR BEAT THE LIVING SHIT OUT OF A SNAKE

THAT WRAPPED AROUND THE FUCKING

WORLD MAN

>> No.1236841

>>1236742

>Belief in gods is irrational and dangerous.

hmm, no. correlation=/=causation

>> No.1236842

>>1236831
>implying there is no evidence.
I think there is certainly no proof but there is evidence, much anecdotal, but evidence nonentheless.

>> No.1236846

>>1236822
It's irrational, and irrationality can be dangerous.

For example: Anyone that beliefs in homeopathy. Ever heard of ear candles?

Also, children that have died because their parents turned down medicine for religious reasons...

Murderers that have gotten away because Islam forbids autopsies...

General ignorance, which, while not necessarily dangerous, is incredibly ignorant and is slowly down our advancement as a species...

>> No.1236852

>>1236842

That is not evidence, faggot.

>>1236841
samefag

>> No.1236853

>>1236842
Same as saying there is evidence that dinner plates turn into alligators and eat flying snakes.

People have seen this shit too, man.

>> No.1236857

>>1236831
>Implying every brilliant theist in human history is a dimwit

>> No.1236863

>>1236852
>non native English speaker detected

There is evidence just not proof learn the difference.

>> No.1236868

>>1236822

Many religious people are nice, yes, but they give credence and moral and financial support to their respective churches, all of which are part of a larger church that the fundamentalists feed upon. All believers and guilty by proxy.

By being a 'theist but not religious', you are simply giving 'faith' a new coat of plausibility. Both mainstream religion and your new one are irrational, dangerous and retrogressive.

Dawkins is mainstream, and becoming bigger.

>> No.1236874

>>1236868
Lolno. Also so many holes in this argument it hurts my eyes to read it.

>> No.1236881

>>1236874
Someone seems mad.

>> No.1236886

>>1236874

Care to point them out, or just rape and misuse my language more?

>> No.1236906

>>1236868
See:
>>1236846

Non-religious theists are NOT harming anyone. As long as they admit that homeopathy and "alternative medicines" are bullshit, too, then they might as well be atheists. They aren't contributing to a church's retardation.

>> No.1236908

>>1236857
they were

>> No.1236924

>>1236886
Lawlnoimgunnakiipmisusingthelanguajbecausethispostismorelawjicalthantheoneyou postedfucktard.

>> No.1236933

all the bad things with religion come from humanity, not religion itself.

>> No.1236942

>>1236908
>Implying Newton was a dimwit
>Myself implying that he wasn't simultaneously foolish for giving in to the intelligent design issue that because he couldn't understand the complex gravitational relationships of our solar system it had to have been the work of a creator.

>> No.1236944

>>1236906
His point is that religious or non-religious isn't the issue. The issue is faith or no faith. By having faith or by believing something against evidence (which theism demands), you give credence to the idea of faith in general, giving religious fundamentalists a stronger footing in this world.

That's his point.

>> No.1236959

>>1236944
>implying that by the same fucktarded logic atheism doesn't supply communism with justification,
>Implying that communism wasn't many times worse than all theistic regimes

>> No.1236976

>>1236959
Wow guize atheist logic is perfect all the time.

>> No.1236988

>>1236959
Look, whatever. The point is that in ALL circumstances, no faith is better than faith. The scope and importance of this fact is a separate issue.

>> No.1236997

>>1236959

Stalin was christian

>> No.1237005

>>1236997
ahahahahafaggot.jpg

Also why you lie?

>> No.1237011

>>1236997

>Stalin
>Christian

wtf are you talking about?

>> No.1237022

>>1236997
Epic fail
http://www.adherents.com/people/ps/Joseph_Stalin.html

>> No.1237023

>>1236942
Newton was born during a time where it was normal to be Christian. And whether he was a firm believer or simply trying to fit in, we'll probably never know.

The point is that believe without evidence is unreasonable.

>> No.1237038

>>1237023
Newton was also born in a time when our understanding of the universe was more or less in its infancy. Thus there was substantially less evidence against the notion of a God then there is now.

>> No.1237042

>>1236959
What you're ignoring is that Stalinism wasn't motivated because of atheism.

But even if it was motivated because of atheism it would still be completely unrelated.

If you believe in anything without being given evidence, then you're a moron.

>> No.1237057

>>1236601

You're probably just as rude. :)

>> No.1237065

>>1237042
It seems to me that many people are simply not familiar with the concept of "withholding judgement". For some reason, people want to either believe in or believe against.

>> No.1237067

>>1237023
No what I'm saying is.

Your average intelligent person looks at the world and says "why does this work the way it does" then inquires about it.

But your exceptional person who hits a block and cant understand (key word is understand) what is going on, has 2 options.

1. Slog away for their entire life, slaving away selflessly for the betterment of man kind.

or

2. Fall on the God of the Gaps argument.

>> No.1237071

>>1237042
See>>1236863
>>1237038
>>1237023
>implyint it still isn't normal to be a Christian
Also this doesn't explain newton's absolute zeal for Christianity, which was not shared by all his contemporaries.

>> No.1237072

>>1236618

But they aren't so what the fuck do you care?

>> No.1237075

>>1237038
Well, it's not like there was a lot more in favour of god either.

And there are other religions or religious concepts, e.g. reincarnation, for which there will most likely never be evidence against.

We don't need evidence "against" god, or any other religious concept, the lack of evidence in favour of it is evidence enough.

>> No.1237081
File: 49 KB, 576x432, 1253228902773.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1237081

>>1237057
>:)

>> No.1237084

>>1237042
but where is your 'evidence' for atheism?

>> No.1237090

>>1236959
>communism
jesus was a commie
also, why do americans hate communism so much??

>> No.1237094

>>1237065
DON'T YOU FUCKING START!

>> No.1237098

>>1237094
icwtudidthar

>> No.1237100

>>1237084
Heaps and heaps of evidence indicate that the universe is deterministic. And if this is the case, God can't exist.

>> No.1237104

>>1237100
It is not deterministic and that as nothing to do with god, are you fucking stupid?

>> No.1237106

>>1237071
>implying it still isn't normal to be a Christian
I don't know where you live, but where I live most people consider themselves atheists. And even those who don't are usually at least from a practical point of view atheists because they don't practice any kind of religion.

Also, whether Newton was religious or not is completely irrelevant.

That a man who was most likely intelligent believed in something unreasonable doesn't make it less unreasonable.

>> No.1237108

>>1237090
>implying Jesus would embrace a system that calls for the extermination of people who believe in him

trollface.jpg

>> No.1237109

>>1237100
such as...

>> No.1237118

>>1237065
It's not like there was a third option.

You can either believe or you don't.

>> No.1237121

>>1237104
Except possibly at the quantum level, yes it is completely deterministic. How could God possibly intervene in our affairs when everything is already being completely governed by natural laws?

>> No.1237125

ITT: HURRZ DURR RELIGIONZ IZ DA ENEMI OF SCIENZ

ah, teenagers...

>> No.1237126

>>1237108
pure communism foo'

>> No.1237130

>>1237109
Such as basically all of science from Galileo to the present day.

>> No.1237131

>>1237084
We don't need evidence for atheism, just like we don't need evidence for the non-existence of the Tooth Fairy or Santa Claus.

The lack of evidence in favour of religion is evidence enough.

>> No.1237132

>>1237022
>>1237005
>>1237011

Before he became a politician Stalin was training to become a Christian priest.

Also his beliefs were no rational and no real atheist would act the way he did. So he was still Christian... he just pretended to not believe in god.

>> No.1237136

>>1237108
communism doesn't calls for the extermination of anything, wft is wrong with you?

>> No.1237140

>>1237121

And how does that disprove God?

>> No.1237141

>>1237100
>Islam and Presbyterian faiths are both deterministic. Where's your atheism now?
>>1237106
>2 Billion Christians in the world more than at any other time in history, over 30% of the world's population

>> No.1237147

>>1237121
By no being bound by any natural laws.

Seriously, don't argue in that direction. There is no need to.

You have no obligation to prove that god isn't real. The people who claim he was have to prove that he is.

>> No.1237152

>>1237140
> How could God possibly intervene in our affairs when everything is already being completely governed by natural laws?

The only option is that God just set things in motion a certain way at the very beginning and hasn't touched a thing since.

>> No.1237154

>>1237131
well i find your lack of evidence good enough for
a) me to believe in a deity
b) not to claim to everyone i must be right, or that i am probably wrong but hey.

>> No.1237157

>>1237132

>implying correlation=causation
>no true scotsman
>conspiracy theories

wow, what a heap of steaming shit in one post.

>> No.1237169

>>1237147

But proving God would disprove God?!

What would be the point of life if everyone knew God certainly existed?

>> No.1237171
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1237171

Why does nobody in this thread know the difference between evidence and fucking proof on either side of the argument

DAMMIT THERE IS EVIDENCE ON BOTH SIDES OF THE FUCKING ARGUMENT I THOUGHT YOU GUYS ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SCIENTISTS AND MATHEMATICIANS

>> No.1237175

>>1237154
congratulations! you're stupid and you may now leave /sci/

>> No.1237176

>>1237171
There's evidence for God? I'm all ears.

>> No.1237177

>>1237141
In my country the majority of the population considers themselves atheists.

But again, your argument is completely irrelevant. Even if 100% of the world's population was Christian it wouldn't make their believe any less unreasonable.

>> No.1237179

>>1237169
to worship him?

>> No.1237180

>>1237169

why do you assume life has a point? even worse, why do you assume that if we knew god existed it wouldn't have a point?

>> No.1237182

>>1236841
What was correlated and suggested to be causal?

>> No.1237184

>>1237171
>lol i troll u

>> No.1237185

>>1237157

Look I'm not saying you are evil just because Stalin and Hitler both followed your Christian faith. I'm just stating a fact.

>> No.1237186

>>1237176
Morality, dying off of atheistic societies, blablablabla read some Aquinas or Collins or Newton. THE EVIDENCE IS MOSTLY ANECDOTAL BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT FUCKING EVIDENCE.

>> No.1237190

>>1237154

you're being selective because there are virtually infinite things that we can't prove exists, so to be logically consistent you'd have to believe in all of them. ALL OF THEM.

>> No.1237192

>>1237171
Evidence for religion?

Tell us about it.

>> No.1237195

>>1237185
>Hitler did not take sacrament and was, therefore, not a Catholic
>Stalin was confirmed atheist
0/10 Shitpost

>> No.1237199
File: 31 KB, 400x250, 1275103458126.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1237199

funny how all you teenage anti-theists claim to be rational and to do observations, but everything you say about religion is just mindless copy-pasta and you have no idea about religion. pic related.

>> No.1237205

>>1237180

I got that from Christian Theology.

It would be true in case of a Christian God.

I admit I jumped to conclusions and equated "God" to "Christian God".

>> No.1237213

>>1237154
The point is that you believe in something for which there is no evidence.

Why don't you worship Raptor Jesus instead of Jesus? He's just as unlikely to exist.

>> No.1237216

>>1237199
nice ad hominem

>> No.1237217

>>1237141
>Islam and Presbyterian faiths are both deterministic. Where's your atheism now?
Ok. Then they don't contradict any evidence that I'm aware of.

Wait, except for the various myths about how the world came to be. Those contradict quite a bit of geological or other evidence.

But either way, even if they didn't contradict any evidence at all, they still have the element of faith. For a start, believing in a deterministic God requires faith: it could just as easily be a deterministic mindless empty universe, so you should withhold judgement. And beyond that, they don't just believe in "a" deterministic God, they believe in THEIR God, a God with many well-defined properties for which there is no evidence.

>> No.1237223

>>1237199

too bad you can't refute these copypastas with convincing arguments. OH SNAP!

>> No.1237224

>>1237213
See
>>1237186

>> No.1237232

>>1236837
that picture is actually very accurate to the perspective that the viking had when they were first exposed to Christianity.

>> No.1237233

>>1237186
Sounds like a massive load of bullshit to me.

>> No.1237236

>>1236591
Its cause in reality most scientists not only dislike religion, they hate it
They all know that religion encourages blind ignorance and has a strong influence on the government.
Now they're all there complaining that schools don't teach creationism, they're trying to stop progress in the field of genetics which could cure many inherited diseases and they're defending the pope who's a pedophile.
Dawkin is the only one who has the balls to stand up to their bullshit.

>> No.1237238

>>1237217
And don't forget their view on heaven/hell, which is completely not rooted in reality.

>> No.1237240

>>1237186
> THE EVIDENCE IS MOSTLY ANECDOTAL BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS NOT FUCKING EVIDENCE.
True, but that does mean it pales in comparison with the opposing, stronger evidence. You're right though, I should go read some Aquinas or something.

>> No.1237241

>>1237195

Hitler was always Christian. He said he was Christian lot's of times and never renounced his religion. He even gave speeches saying that Nazi Germany was a Christian nation and priests were in the Nazi armed forces.

Stalin was a hidden Christian. He was a Christian as a child and went to priest school. Then he pretended he wasn't to gain political power but his actions afterwards (such as oppressing innocent people for no logical reason) show that he really remained Christian.

>> No.1237247

>>1237217
Such. Awful. Logic. Admit you were wrong. A huge percentage of religious people are determinists.

>> No.1237250

>>1237199
Sad enough, I do know people like this.

I know a lot of people like you too though.

>> No.1237253

>>1237186
>Morality
If you need god for morality you are fucked in the head. Also morality in monkeys suggest it's not divine at all.
>dying off of atheistic societie
don't even know what to say to this...
>blablablabla read some Aquinas or Collins or Newton
so you really don't have any arguments in the end?

>> No.1237254

>>1237224

how this post >>1237186 justifies you not worshiping raptor jesus or thor instead of your christian god?

>> No.1237261

>>1237241
Sauce faggot. No way a real Christian joins the communist party.

Also, Sauce on HItler's Christianity.

>> No.1237266

>>1237199
How much do you know about religion?

Can you explain Daoism in two sentences? Or do you know each Japanese Shinto/Buddhist subsect? What about Germanic Paganism? Or the old gods of Egypt?

Do you know about them? Probably not.

Why should we care about your religion if you don't care about the religion of others.

I can only repeat: the whole point is that you believe in something for which there is no evidence, which is simply an unreasonable position.

>> No.1237267

>>1237190
i consider open mindedly the possibility that any of them could be right. i just 'feel' borderline deist christianity is best that i know off.

>> No.1237270

>>1237254

It doesn't. It's a mere refutation of the hurrr no evidence argument.

>> No.1237276

>>1237247
How in the fuck is that possible? God is INCOMPATIBLE with determinism, almost by definition.

>> No.1237280
File: 248 KB, 1600x1200, soatheists..jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1237280

This.

>> No.1237282

>>1237276
Read Calvin or basic Islamic theology on the subject. I don't have time to teach lessons to slow learners or the willfully ignorant.

>> No.1237286

>>1237261

My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.... When I go out in the morning and see these men standing in their queues and look into their pinched faces, then I believe I would be no Christian, but a very devil if I felt no pity for them, if I did not, as did our Lord two thousand years ago, turn against those by whom to-day this poor people is plundered and exploited.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech in Munich on 12 April 1922

>> No.1237287

>>1237267

i can accept that position. way better than any fanatical muslims or christians that would gladly murder you for believing in a different deity

>> No.1237293

>>1237270
The "no evidence" argument is enough.

There is no need for any other argument.

>> No.1237300

>>1237280
hehe, made me chuckle

>> No.1237308

>>1237280
Its because you guys are irrational!
You disregard science even though you have all benefit immensely by it

>> No.1237310

>>1237267
my god you're fucking stupid.. scum of the earth

>> No.1237314

>>1237293

Only it's a patently false argument. You probably watch Glenn Beck. Hurr a false argument becomes true if you yell it loud enough for long enough.

>> No.1237320

>>1237282

>>I don't have time to teach lessons to slow learners or the willfully ignorant.

i find that incredibly ironic

>> No.1237321

We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

-Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Passau, 27 October 1928, Bundesarchiv Berlin-Zehlendorf,

>> No.1237322

>>1237282
you just don't want people to be able to point out how stupid you and your friend are.

>> No.1237329

>>1237236

>creatonists
>pope

what the fuck am i reading? also if you think catholics worship the pope, you have no idea about catholicism. actually a lot of people disagree with him. also this one is meh, the one before was good tho.

>> No.1237340
File: 12 KB, 170x263, 1192658042047.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1237340

>>1237314

>> No.1237343

>>1237322
Ummm..I'm an electrical engineer. What are your credentials name caller.

>> No.1237344

>>1237280

This mother fuckers. Explain this shit!

>> No.1237345

>>1237287
thank you. it's a position that has been developed over years from brought up christian/agnostic theist/anti-theist/agnostic atheist/agnostic borderline deist christian. just so people can see it's a considered thing.

>> No.1237347

>>1237314
>Glenn Beck
Who is that? He sounds like a dick.
Anyway you're wrong.

>> No.1237352

>>1237286
To be fair - Hitler couldn't allow himself to alienate the deeply Catholic German South and didn't want to ruin his relationship to the pope. He was very ambiguous about Christianity in general.

But whether he was an atheist or Christian doesn't really matter, because the fact is that ANY KIND OF BELIEVE DESPITE LACK OF EVIDENCE IS UTTER FOOLISHNESS.

>> No.1237353

>>1237320
Ummm....do you know what irony means?

>> No.1237357

>>1237343

having a college degree doesn't stop many people of being completely retarded in regards to religion.

>> No.1237361

>>1237310
care to explain why i'm so fucking stupid?

>> No.1237363

>>1237353

absolutely, and it fits perfectly with how i used

>> No.1237366

>>1237345
YOU ARE FUCKING STUPID!

>> No.1237375

>>1237363
Umm...just no.

>> No.1237379

>>1237375

yes, it does

>> No.1237382

I don't get why people would belive in a god. It'd make the world a much shittier place if he existed..

>> No.1237389

>>1237261

Dude you can tell Stalin was a Christian from his history and actions.

He attended church school as a little kid. Then he went to Georgian Orthodox seminary to become a priest.

Then he PRETENDED to renounce the church to become a communist but in fact he always remained Christian. You can that from the way he used religious imagery in his speeches.

People say that he created a cult of personality... cult is just another word for religion.

Can you prove that he WASN'T Christian? Because if you can't you should accept that we are both right and it's arrogant to suggest that you know the truth.

>> No.1237390

>>1237366
you have no argument whatsoever

>> No.1237391

>>1237357
Which is of course different from being an absolute retard which an electrical engineer clearly isn't. Which is different from the assertion made. But of course you knew that didn't you Einstein.

>> No.1237392

>>1237314
No.

The lack of evidence in favour of a god would make it unreasonable to base your life around his teachings. Especially considering that the origins of said religions can be tracked historically, how it developed, how many syncretisms and shisms it underwent, its scriptures can be set in socio-historical context and analysed to find out why certain things are not allowed while others are, .. - the fact that people believed in other religions before, but don't any more, the fact that a lot of what was written in religious scripture has been proven scientifically wrong, etc.

It is simply unreasonable to believe in anything without being presented evidence.

>> No.1237394

>>1237363
"the use of words to express something other than and especially the opposite of the literal meaning b : a usually humorous or sardonic literary style or form characterized by irony cf. an ironic expression or utterance"

i really hope you enjoy being wrong because it must happen an awful lot

>> No.1237399

>>1237382

i wish god existed, then i could blame someone for my problems

>> No.1237403

>>1237391
what the fuck am I reading?

>> No.1237404

>>1237282
You said Theists. Those religions are, for the purpose of this discussion, Deist, seeing as they don't believe God has any current influence on our lives.

And if they DO believe God has any current influence on our lives, because I admit I haven't read into this in depth; then that brings me back to my initial point: this is incompatible with determinism.

Every effect in this universe has a cause. Determinism is the idea that all of these causes evolve according to mechanistic laws, which implies that the only thing that matters in what happens in this universe is what the initial conditions were. Where, in that framework, is there room for a God who just waltzes in at any time and influences things however he wants? If that were possible, then the universe wouldn't be deterministic.

We have observed physical laws governing vast areas of causality. If there were something capable of violating those laws whenever it felt like it, we would have noticed.

>> No.1237405

>>1237392
Only evidence has been supplied, which means that the no evidence argument is invalid, which means that you just parrot something over and over again that isn't true.....which is reminiscent of , say, a young earth creationist maybe?

>> No.1237409

>>1237389

dude, just stop saying Stalin was a christian, that's retarded. he was an atheist, ditto.

>> No.1237410

>>1237399
And I wish God existed as well
That way I could pray instead of doing something productive

>> No.1237413

>>1237404

L2Calvin.

>> No.1237418

>>1237352


Dude just accept that Hitler was Christian.

I'm not saying that all Christians are Nazi's just because all the Nazis were Christian. I'm just saying that we need to watch Christians in case they become Nazi's like they did in Germany.

>> No.1237425

ITT: the intellectially lost people and people tired of the shitty nature of man. Have fun going through this for the rest of your lives.

>> No.1237427

Proper rationalists are non-confirmed atheists. The non-existence of God is a useful null hypothesis, since it is explicitly falsifiable (by the existence of God). I'm sure they'll all become theists if anyone ever succeeds in falsifying that null.

>> No.1237429

>>1237403
The assertion made was "you are retarded" as opposed to "your position is retarded". Just pointing out the logical fallacy for all our great logician friends here at /sci/.

>> No.1237432

>>1237413
Ok. If you say so. I can't see how it could present any arguments that I haven't already heard and dismissed in discussions about free will and compatibilism, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt.

>> No.1237434

>>1237410
I wish god existed as well
That way I wouldn't have to figure out right from wrong on my own

>> No.1237435

>>1237418

hitler was actually an occultist but w/e. also are you saying they became nazis because they were christians?

>> No.1237436

>>1237418

He's like Jefferson. Public Christian. Private non. Which is more relevant?

>> No.1237438

>>1237394

u mad?

it is ironic because what you said is exactly what you are, a willful ignorant.

>> No.1237441

>>1237409

Dummy the only people that go to priest school are CHRISTIANS! why would you even want to be a priest even you didn't have a religion? Do you have any idea how little sense you make?

Try and prove that Stalin wasn't Christian! what's that you can't? guess I'm right then.

>> No.1237442

>>1237432
Seriously just read Calvin. There are deterministic religions. Islam is ultra deterministic.

>> No.1237443

>>1237429
I see
but isn't
>which an electrical engineer clearly isn't
a baseless assumption?

>> No.1237445

>>1237441
I'm gonna go out on a limb and say

> trollface.jpg

>> No.1237447

>>1237405
>Only evidence has been supplied
Evidence for what? What kind of evidence are you referring to?

I didn't see any evidence.

Fact is that religious scripture was written by man, that most religions are patchworks of older religions, that other religions died out, that there currently are countless religions and countless interpretations of each of them which all claim to be right.

But there is no physical evidence.

It is a fact that prayer doesn't reliably cure people. It's a fact that there is no scientific evidence for the existence of miracles.

>> No.1237450

>>1237438
>facepalm.jpg

Did you read the definition? Accusing peole of doing some wrong you do is hypocrisy not irony.

>> No.1237451

>>1237441
hah, reminds me of a big scandal in my country caused by an employed priest who kept telling the press he didn't belive in god.

>> No.1237456

>>1237450
haha oh wow..

>> No.1237458

>>1237442
So do their Gods just set a big plan in motion at the very beginning and then passively watch it unfold, or do they find some way of making it possible for God to continue influencing physical events AND still claim the universe deterministic?

>> No.1237463

>>1237436

I'm not American so I don't no much about Jefferson... but if you say he wasn't really Christian I'll take your word for it. It seems plausible because he was a pretty intelligent guy.

>> No.1237464

>>1237394

okay maybe i used the wrong word. i think hypocrisy would fit well

>> No.1237467

>>1237443
Lolno.

>> No.1237475

>>1237463
Yeah he was brilliant and publicly talked about God and beat the Bible but was privately a Universalist who denied Christ's divinity, which makes him patently non Christian.

>> No.1237476

>>1237464
>>1237450

i realized that. i stand corrected

>> No.1237479

>>1237441

orthodox priests are actually very educated people (also a lot of catholic ones, like Jesuits etc.). also why would he persecute religion if he was religious? you make no fucking sense. he killed thousands of priests and nuns.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin#Religion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Soviet_Union

>> No.1237483

>>1237443
thread derailment in 5, 4, 3..

>> No.1237484

>>1237476
Intellectual honesty? In my /sci? I just came.

>> No.1237489

>>1237352

“National Socialism is not a cult-movement-- a movement for worship; it is exclusively a ‘volkic’ political doctrine based upon racial principles. In its purpose there is no mystic cult, only the care and leadership of a people defined by a common blood-relationship... We will not allow mystically- minded occult folk with a passion for exploring the secrets of the world beyond to steal into our Movement. Such folk are not National Socialists, but something else-- in any case something which has nothing to do with us. At the head of our programme there stand no secret surmisings but clear-cut perception and straightforward profession of belief. But since we set as the central point of this perception and of this profession of belief the maintenance and hence the security for the future of a being formed by God, we thus serve the maintenance of a divine work and fulfill a divine will-- not in the secret twilight of a new house of worship, but openly before the face of the Lord… Our worship is exclusively the cultivation of the natural, and for that reason, because natural, therefore God-willed. Our humility is the unconditional submission before the divine laws of existence so far as they are known to us men.” -Adolf Hitler, in Nuremberg on 6 Sept.1938.

>> No.1237500

>>1237458


Basically God is entirely separate from the world of man in Calvinism and Islam especially Islam. Islam argues for an absolute separation of reality and the realm of God.

>> No.1237512

Would I be a bad person for asking for an archive of this thread? I know it's a rule violator and all but it actually seems to have brought out some interesting info.

>> No.1237516

>>1237479

That's right he did.

The only people with CAUSE to persecute religious people are OTHER religious people because they disagree with what they say and think that it makes god angry.

Stalin persecuted Jews just like Hitler because he thought god wanted him too.

>> No.1237519

>>1237512

like what? this is just like every other atheism x religion thread

>> No.1237525

>>1237516

Hi there troll. How's it going?

>> No.1237533

LOL didnt read this whole fucking thread but....

The best way to look at things or the best way to describe oneself would be IMO a Realist.

Maybe this is my own explanation of it, but it pretty much means I am open to any and all things. Meaning I wont back myself into a corner and say God does or doesnt exist, and any further findings would be welcome.

I think its obvious we will never know unless God himself makes it known, otherwise we can never really know for sure.

>> No.1237550
File: 33 KB, 450x373, full_retard.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1237550

>>1237516

uhm, you could call yourself jew (as in ethnicity) in USSR w/o a problem, but you couldn't call yourself a christian. also he killed christians mostly, not jews. you are full of shit. here is a pic for you.

>> No.1237557

>>1237533

You just described what 90% of all atheists believe. Except that atheists also think that we should assume there PROBABLY isn't a god until evidence to the contrary appears.

>> No.1237564

>>1237550

Trollfed. I lol'd

>> No.1237569

>>1237533
'Realist' is pretty much the opposite of what you describe, it is a scientific position saying that we can consistently describe electrons (for example) as 'actually' existing, in contrast to anti-realism which finds them epiphenomenal (or something more complicated depending on who you ask). 'Realist' commits you to a proposition regarding the existance of God based on observed effects

>> No.1237574

>>1237557

>such awful misuse of the word evidence.

L2Engrish

>> No.1237591

>>1237557
Oxford English Dictionary (OED), Second Edition
Here is how the OED defines "atheism":

atheism Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a god.

Maybe you should think about what you call yourself. I and Im sure most people think athiest deny a God, period.

>> No.1237621

>>1237591
OED really isn't a reliable source for philosophical terms - SEP is probably the most 'layman' philosophical dictionary that would be appropriate for a definitional debate

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/atheism-agnosticism/

>> No.1237625

>>1237591
Thank you btw. "Atheism" is also a word that tends to be misused ie "Atheism is a religion, atheism is a lack of belief, atheism is not a religious pov etc."

>> No.1237626

>>1237550

Learn 2 Soviet Anti-Zionism

Thousands of Jews were sent to the siberian gulags.

>> No.1237636

>>1237569
Maybe thats ur definition.

realist - a person who accepts the world as it literally is and deals with it accordingly

>> No.1237640

>>1237626
All religious people get fucked when the commies take over. They don't discriminate. Falun Gong, Christian, Jew, Buddhist. Your ass is as sold for organs.

>> No.1237648

>>1237626

and millions of other people. you expect that there were no jews among them?

>> No.1237660
File: 3 KB, 120x120, wiggins.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1237660

>225 posts and 11 image replies omitted. Click Reply to view.

>> No.1237662

>>1237640

Don't forget libertarian capitalist atheists!!! We are grinder food in communist systems as well. Fuckin commies really are easy to dislike.

>> No.1237667

>>1237648

Nope millions of people died. Stalin WAS a monster that killed people based on paranoid delusions.

I'm just pointing out that this monster was also a Christian.

>> No.1237669

so if religion is anti-science, how come that i.e. the best University in Chile is Pontificia Universidad Catolica de Chile?

>> No.1237675

>>1237640

that would be good for atheists, if they didn't try to replace religion with worship for the state, which is kinda like a religion. just look at north korea

>> No.1237677

>>1237636
Let's be honest, that's a pretty vacuous definition - who seriously thinks they attempt to deal with the world as it is not? Other than maybe some of the more comitted Russalians but I have no doubt that is not what you're talking about

Just accept that what you are is a 'pragmatist', not a 'realist', and you can avoid being terminalogically imprecise for the rest of your life. Why fight it?

>> No.1237690

>>1237669

Dude it isn't. People that claim it is don't want to actually take the time to do science but rather want to appear smart or disqualify as inferior people who disagree with them ie "conversational intolerance" (ht Sam Harris). Christian, Jewish, and Islamic institutions have been doing awesome science since forever.

>> No.1237692

>>1237669
trollface.jpg

>> No.1237701

>>1237675

And I suppose you think religious people are immoral too.

>> No.1237704

>>1237677
>who seriously thinks they attempt to deal with the world as it is not?

My point is an athiest or religious person subscribes to one line of thought.

>> No.1237711

>>1237690

i know, that's what i am trying to say.

>> No.1237716

>>1237711

This logically accurate position is absolute 4chan blasphemy. Enjoy ur b&.

>> No.1237770

>>1237716

i could actually use a ban.

the main problem in science vs. religion (which, let's face it, exists only in the US) is that both sides don't know shit about the other.