He's right about education being a broken system

[Anonymous No.12283178]

Why sit through lectures when we have textbooks? The only reason to go the a university would be access to labs. But either than that I dont see a good reason. If people say that professor feedback is what is important, Id ask them to say what the ratio of students who interact in class are compared to the students who never talk with their professors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4gLDXfXgbs&feature=emb_title

[Anonymous No.12283184]

op is right

[Anonymous No.12283215]

I unironically think most people should get jobs or enter a trade around age 12 and just save and live with their parents for a decade. It would set them for life. There isn't any reason why intelligent people cant go to college at that age either. Could be a doctor by age 20.

[Anonymous No.12283236]

No, it's just that retards who run the market don't understand the point of a higher education. Higher education is not there to show you how to google shit and how to use excel, which is what most non trade jobs require. Academia is not there just to further market capitalism and so many times research is not oriented in whatever meme buisness trend is going on. But if you want to go into academia, the system works better than most shit. Yes you can't do nuclear research on your garage.

[Anonymous No.12283250]

>>12283178
how we learn is also conditioning us
i don't need repetition if i have interest
if the material and the methods are not interesting, that's when you need continual conditioning, and it's a huge waste of energy and time unless you're willing to transform as pure autistic to facilitate it

its intentional design to keep you organized on the plantation and extract your discoveries

get some friends together and make your own "labs"
we need to change our relationship with reality

[Anonymous No.12283252]

>>12283215
its because the guvment wants to make sure that there is a place for parents to dump their kids until they are legally allowed to kick their kids to the curb at 18. Thankfully, the guvment daycares dont prepare kids for college or real life, that way the kids are forced to either go work retail or take on a crazy amount of student loans even if they have no idea what you want to do with your life

[Anonymous No.12283256]

>>12283236
>Academia is not there just to further market capitalism
k

[Anonymous No.12283257]

>>12283236
>Yes you can't do nuclear research on your garage.
What is the ratio of fields that require expensive labs like nuclear research compared to those that are focused all on pen and paper and computers?

[Anonymous No.12283274]

>>12283257
or even low price setups

there's so much we could be doing with this stuff at the individual and group level, and there's a lot more that we've missed due to cultural conditioning and objective cultures

[Anonymous No.12283283]

>>12283274
it just is laughable people pay over 100k for degrees in math, law, history, philosophy, English, and so many others that do not require incredibly expensive shit.

[Anonymous No.12283333]

>>12283283
i think most people are sold a lie with stars in their eyes and have no frame of reference on what they're signing up for
we need to offer them better ways

[Anonymous No.12283368]

>>12283333
what would be better? Caplan basically says to cut all funding to education. I think that there should be exams sort of how you can clep out of classes, which would be all that is required to get a bachelors degree.

[Anonymous No.12283428]

>>12283178
>If people say that professor feedback is what is important

On subjects I really cared enough to ask questions, computer science, classroom questions would become so numerous that eventually my professor told us to google stuff

It was right. He can't possibly compete with the knowledge on particulars with a search engine. And he only has time to answer questions relevant to completing the lesson.

I came to the realization that if I completed my degree I would take 1 or 2 more classes after that and would feel like a complete imposter who had no idea how to program. So I quit

[Anonymous No.12283438]

>>12283178
I wish I could just self teach, school is making me dead inside.

[Anonymous No.12283450]

>>12283257
What's your point? Yes there are people who actually discover interesting shit in history and are not academics, even David Irving was known for his command of WW2 sources. That doesn't mean academia is wrong nor that any one with google can do it.
>>12283274
Like what?
>>12283283
Yes, its laughable burgers have retarded systems of higher eduction, but no reading Marcus Aurelius or whatever /lit/ is jerking off about is not a supplement to proper education. Your retarded credit system obviously isn't intended for academic subjetcs that aren't market hot takes.
>>12283333
Burgers yes because banks benefits from students loans and unis benefit from scamming their students.
>>12283368
No you fucking retard, create public institutions like any decent country.

This thread is full with hs kiddies who are mad they have to turn a fucking essay.

[Anonymous No.12283469]

>>12283450
I dont really think you are making a good point. Why is going to university a "proper education?" What exactly does a university do to justify it being superior to self learning other than giving you something to put on your resume?

[Anonymous No.12283495]

>>12283450
>What's your point?
The point is pretty simple. Only a few fields at universities offer things that you cannot access on your own. These generally consist of labs. A person getting an undergrad degree in history is not going to need to access very expensive stuff to gain the knowledge to complete his degree. All he really needs are his textbooks, which raises the question if it is worth the cost if you could just read those books on your own.

Besides, one you become a professor, you stop taking classes but you continue learning. And if we are to think that we need to have these extremely well designed courses for humans to learn, how are professors able to learn new information. The answer is obvious. The professors continue learning by self learning. While they might attend a conference a few times a year, the majority of their learning is done on their own.

[Anonymous No.12283496]

>>12283368
the point of our education should be developmental, that's it
designing you for a field so you can make an advancement that, most of the time, is going to benefit the people who have come to control the resources and funding for it, imo, is dated at this point.
it's time to change why we do these things, and i'm leaning more bottom up than top down.

[Anonymous No.12283508]

>>12283469
People can't actually self learn things that well, anon.

I have always been a very good and enthusiastic independent student. I am confident I knew more about my chosen field when I entered university, than most students do when they leave with a masters degree. Yet there's no way I would have reached on my own the level of expertise that university has taught me, no way in hell.

[Anonymous No.12283523]

>>12283508
>People can't actually self learn things that well, anon.
stuff them in an environment that agitates their learning
this is why sensory based learning is better

understand that, probably, eurocentric backgrounds have it baked into their DNA to better understand autistic dry text just from continual repetition
you have to first learn to be able to process this way to then process how we express this information and observation
then you have to go ahead and teach yourself

at best, we create environments for people that are more experiential and sensory based, so people can get a grapple through a more intuitive approaches.

"self" learning has to come from self, and the way we have discovered and expressed ideas doesn't come from "self", it comes from the designs of others that we've decided to expand upon.
make something more integrated with experience and people can 100% "self learn" well.

[Anonymous No.12283532]

>>12283523
>stuff them in an environment that agitates their learning
We do. Those environments are called universities.

[Anonymous No.12283542]

>>12283508
you're missing because you're retarded that the majority of beeps are retarded, everyone you've ever met is retarded. the university system is horrible, the people in them are horrible, but when you're reading a book on exotic atoms there's nothing on google about quasi-atoms. That's the only point, and it only works if you go to a prestigous institution where it is mandated all subjects are taught & fluently.

[Anonymous No.12283550]

>>12283532
you're not understanding what i am saying
if you want to learn about hunting, you don't read a book about it
if you want to learn comedy, you don't read a book about it

the more synthetic environments we design need to be environments that we can experientially learn from
that might sound super farfetched for a lot of fields, but this is how more solidified learning happens without the extreme autistic repetition

[Anonymous No.12283562]

>>12283542
i would venture not 1 person here has personally purchased an interferometer, it PROBABLY comes with instructions. READ IT & SWEEPick
*Groans from the thousands of engineers who should be the next einstein, the thousands of scientists who should be a pioneering applied physicist*

[Anonymous No.12283565]

>>12283508
>People can't actually self learn things that well, anon
This is plain wrong. How else do people go through university but for studying on their own? When they read their textbook and are cramming for their exam they are studying on their own. Students dont have their professors in their rooms while they prepare for their finals. Almost everything you do in college is done on your own.

[Anonymous No.12283569]

>>12283178
> another education system le bad poster

[Anonymous No.12283577]

>>12283569
it is though. Why have lectures when we have the books? Lectures are outdated and were only useful when books had to be handwritten which made them too expensive for students to all have

[Anonymous No.12283597]

>>12283577
>too expensive for students to all have
This is starting to happen again, but now we have to have both :/

[Anonymous No.12283600]

>>12283469
Because a good uni is an environment purposely defined for learning? I'm not saying it is for everyone, nor that there isnt' a better system, but ffs it gives you a structure and path to learning shit. You have people with expert knowledge who can also grade how you are doing certain tasks. You engage in the subject and not just regurgitate wikipedia facts. I had some peers who managed to go through uni not going to a single class and having the highest grade in the Final exam, but they were far from common.
>>12283523
Lmao HS kid shut the fuck up.
>>12283495
You seem to downplay how many fields depends on labs. Any degree related to chemistry requires some sort of profesional and serious instrumentation. It's not a few fields its basically most of science.
>which raises the question if it is worth the cost if you could just read those books on your own.
Again this is a non issue in non-burgerland. Yes if you have a system that gives you a life debt and you enter a difficult filed in terms of market share like history well either take it seriously so you can take a position in academia or don't enter. Y know the US isn't the only place that has tuitions, but in my country I don't know of any private uni that even comes close to how expensive is in the US. But you seem to forget you don't just become a professor. Academics are expected to teach, but their main job is research, and this is a pretty cut-throat world, but well don't go into an academic subject without having plans to enter academia.
>b..but they told me uni opens doors
Yes stop listening to moronic teachers and use google.

[Anonymous No.12283632]

Government should stop offering subsidized college to Military Vets. It helps justify unconstitutional wars.

[Anonymous No.12283671]

>>12283178
OP is right. PhD programs and many masters programs require the university system, but for undergraduate degrees the system is retarded.

>>12283236
>Yes you can't do nuclear research on your garage.
What undergraduate degree requires access to a nuclear research laboratory?

>>12283368
>what would be better?
Promote or require credit by exam for the majority of classes. Provide equivalency exams for some undergraduate majors. Watch the cost of tuition dwindle as universities realize that being in charge of teaching and evaluation allowed them to exploit students for decades. Universities can't compete in a free market. If students could take exams without having to pay tuition for a year first, higher education would be significantly cheaper.

[Anonymous No.12283768]

Institution fags are stretching. University offers undergraduates nothing but a monopoly on accreditation. If universities didn't have a monopoly on certification, they would fall to pieces.

>>12283508
>People can't actually self learn things that well, anon.
>>12283600
>Because a good uni is an environment purposely defined for learning?

Nope. Self learning doesn't mean derive from first principles. Self learning means learning from work books, text books, and recorded lectures. The only thing universities uniquely provide is accreditation, but universities have a monopoly on that. You can always check your understanding by making your own tests.

[Anonymous No.12283811]

>>12283495
>Only a few fields at universities offer things that you cannot access on your own
Just because you can, doesn't mean you will. The best part about university is having other people to work with. I remember spending like 8 hours straight with my buddy trying to get our simulation to work and then it happened. Glorious moment.

[Anonymous No.12283820]

People who complain about university and push the
>just study yourself!!
Meme are invariably people who don't study themselves or work in any scientific field. They're just jealous, hateful people lashing out at what makes them feel inferior.

[Anonymous No.12283852]

>>12283768
>The only thing universities provide is accreditation
It is one of the thing they provide, do you think it is meaningless? Accreditation is not meaningless, you just have to know for what is it useful. Also, only in the U.S. they see unis as a business model were you depend on a constant flow of students, but basically every important uni in the world depends on the research they do. Universities are not there to give you information that is readily available you moron.
>You can always check your understanding by making your own tests.
Yes no one is denying it is outright impossible to learn shit by yourself. I learned a new language that way. Uni is not fucking highschool, you don't go to a lecture to get facts and shit from your teacher, it's a formative experience. I do agree that for grad school, undergrad shouldn't be a hard requirement, but your monopoly of accreditation basically ends there. You can take many tests that are well accepted outsied of academia. GRE subjects or equivalent for undergrad shit, the BAR for law and many other certifications. These alone may not open you an academic position, but if your plan is to engage in academic subjects, well unis are tailored to make that easier so why no take it? So you can prove you don't need a teacher? What exactly would fall? Is not that other institutions are radically different.

[Anonymous No.12283902]

>>12283236
>Yes you can't do nuclear research on your garage.
Refuted by Mitcho Kaku.

[Anonymous No.12284029]

>>12283852
>It is one of the thing they provide, do you think it is meaningless?
No, accreditation is important, but allowing universities to monopolize accreditation and form a cartel where it's impossible to get accreditation without paying massive tuition fees is bad for society.

>Uni is not fucking highschool, you don't go to a lecture to get facts and shit from your teacher, it's a formative experience.
News flash: an undergraduate degree *is* the same as high-school. There is nothing uniquely formative about earning a undergraduate degree. More classes, more homework, more grades. In high-school you had a GPA, in college you have a GPA. You take classes by the semester. You are learning from textbooks, homework, and lectures. You are not required to do research in high-school or college. You are not required to learn off syllabus in high-school or college. You are rewarded for doing research and learning off syllabus in high-school and college, but only later in life. College *is* a fucking high-school. Until you're doing a PhD or a masters' thesis, you're still in high-school II electric boogaloo.

>but if your plan is to engage in academic subjects, well unis are tailored to make that easier so why no take it
Because college is expensive. Because college is a bad place to learn. Because colleges prioritize research at the expense of teaching.

[Anonymous No.12284076]

>>12284029
>News flash: an undergraduate degree *is* the same as high-school.
That depends hugely on where in the world you live, anon.

[Anonymous No.12284119]

>>12283600
>You seem to downplay how many fields depends on labs. Any degree related to chemistry requires some sort of profesional and serious instrumentation. It's not a few fields its basically most of science.
I disagree. You have biology, chemistry, physics, and engineering. The vast majority of fields at a university do not require expensive labs

[Anonymous No.12284129]

>>12283852
>Universities are not there to give you information that is readily available you moron.
what information do they give that is hard to get? I could buy any textbook that Harvard uses for any of its classes.

[Anonymous No.12284151]

>>12284076
even so, I feel like this is a bad analog. Based on this, 1st grade is the same as 11th grade. And then since most masters degrees, medical school and law school, mostly just require you to take the required courses and take the tests, you could say that medical school is the same as 1st grade.

[Anonymous No.12284178]

>>12284029
>No, accreditation is important, but allowing universities to monopolize accreditation and form a cartel where it's impossible to get accreditation without paying massive tuition fees is bad for society.
Accreditation for what you fucking retard? Do you know what a trade school is? Do you know you can take the bar exam without a degree? Also the tuition fees meme is a burger problem because you are fucking retarded
>News flash: an undergraduate degree *is* the same as high-school.
Like >>12284076 said, that's not true in general. Again the problem is really only a thing in burgerland were you lower academic standards in order to have more and more students getting in debt. Also what learning institution doesn't provide classes homework and grades? You actually believe it is the same thing because it uses this basic structure? Lmao you understand you have to also take tests at grad school right?
>Because college is expensive.
Again the problem is not fucking colleges, is your retarded burger system
>>12284119
Yes, but again the price shit is retarded Burger fuckery.
>>12284129
Jesus christ, my point is that unis are not banks or information. It is an institution that is designed not only for you to learn a bunch random facts, but form you with a particular profile, a set of skills that are known to be important in the field. Yes the first semesters they go over a basic curriculum to provide a baseline, but do you think uni only teaches you basic shit? Again I know horror stories from burgerland, but no that should be merely the starting point of your education, then when you get to advanced shit, it is were you start to learn what is done know, the different areas you can go, projects you could work on etc etc and uni provides an environment for all of this. Yes, this shouldn't cost a fucking lung, but that is not a problem of the college model.

[Anonymous No.12284215]

>>12284178
>Jesus christ, my point is that unis are not banks or information. It is an institution that is designed not only for you to learn a bunch random facts, but form you with a particular profile, a set of skills that are known to be important in the field.
This idea that you are "learning how to learn" is something that is not shown to be true in the research. It seems like cope to say that paying for college is not about learning information but its about forming you.

[Anonymous No.12284323]

>>12284215
>This idea that you are "learning how to learn" is something that is not shown to be true in the research.
Wtf is the research? No it is not learning to learn, you should have already learned that in primary lmao, it is not some life coaching bullshit. The skills are concrete. Tell me, were online you can have an expert on a subject give you feedback or a grade on an essay? Can a book tell you all your doubts about a subject? Do you have an idea on how to solve some shit but you don't know if it will go somewhere? This type of shit comes all the time when learning a subject because it is not just X is right or wrong. And just to show you, my background is fucking mathematics, so no I don't think it highly depends on the subject. What you learn in a Calc class in no fucking way reduces to what it is in a textbook if you actually take advantage of what the professor has to tell you. You can learn better proof writing, get more sources, how it relates to different subjects and it is for many much easier to understand something when is worked out in class. Even the best most pedagogical books I've seen don't explain it in the same way an expert explains it. Maybe I'm a brainlet, but well, I don't see the problem of having institutions that allow more people to prove they can also learn the subject. If you really have the capacity of self learning from textbooks well then entering college shouldn't be that much of a problem
>It seems like cope to say that paying for college
Again burger problem
>you are paying with taxes!
Lmao n, in non meme countries tuition while not really cheap, is not outrageously high like in burger land because you are right, most of it goes to salaries and maintenance. Do you really think teachers are useless because of books?

[Anonymous No.12284341]

>>12284323
the argument of professor feedback is not a good argument imo. Hardly anyone in class actually engages with their professors. The only ones who do are either the ones who are too slow and need to constantly ask questions or the ones who try everything to standout. Most people dont ever speak with their professors except when absolutely necessary.

[Anonymous No.12284351]

>>12284341
>Hardly anyone in class actually engages with their professors
Yes and not everyone excels in uni.
>The only ones who do are either the ones who are too slow and need to constantly ask questions or the ones who try everything to standout. Most people dont ever speak with their professors except when absolutely necessary.
Lmao how is HS you fucking retard.

[Anonymous No.12284356]

>>12284351
Im in law school. Are you still in undergrad?

[Anonymous No.12284363]

Based on the discussion in this thread so far, I think we can fairly summarize the situation as "university is not high school 2.0 but burger universities are, suck on it Amerifags".

[Anonymous No.12284366]

>>12284351
>Yes and not everyone excels in uni.
What is your point? Are you implying only those who constantly engage with their professors excel?

[Anonymous No.12284368]

>>12284363
how exactly are undergrads different in other countries?

[Anonymous No.12284369]

>>12284356
I'm doing my PhD, but also I'm not from a country were you need to go to undergrad and then to "Law School" lmao. You burgers need to realize just how cucked you are education wise.

[Anonymous No.12284370]

>>12284366
Not that person, but I think the implication is the other way around -- the types of people who do engage with the professors (and, for that matter, the material) are the people who actually belong in university and will excel there, whereas the other 90% are wasting their time in new and improved high school.

[Anonymous No.12284374]

>>12284369
Continental Europe generally has law school as a grad program. But whatever, I guess you are from England

[Anonymous No.12284379]

>>12284370
well, that is a mere assumption. And I find it hard to believe that the most talented would need to ask questions often. The most gifted Id imagine would float through college without much effort.

[Anonymous No.12284380]

>>12284368
They are aimed at adults who are there because they want to be there and learn material, rather than children who are in a room because they are told to be there and will stop paying attention the moment you don't force them to. Students who are not there to learn because of their own intrinsic motivation will hit the ground face first very quickly. As a consequence, it's populated by people who are there to actually learn, rather than checking boxes, and lectures are structured accordingly.

[Anonymous No.12284384]

>>12284380
I meant actual differences in the programs that you could point to.

[Anonymous No.12284386]

>>12284384
The most obvious difference in the program is that in continental Europe (which is the system I know best, for obvious reasons), university programs don't have general requirement courses. Every single course is directly applicable to the topic you are studying. Which means they can cover about three times as much topical material as is common in American undergrads.

[Anonymous No.12284390]

>>12284386
(To clarify: I'm talking here about what is *common* in burger universities, not what is possible in the exceptional ones. I know good ones do exist.)

[Anonymous No.12284392]

>>12284386
So undergrad degrees do not have general studies requs and are 4 years in length?

[Anonymous No.12284394]

>>12284392
Three years, where I'm from. But no general studies requirements, no.

[Anonymous No.12284397]

>>12284394
how many hours are required

[Anonymous No.12284402]

>>12284366
Showing genuine interest usually means you are willing to take more time to really understand what you are being told to instead of just writing it down without listening and trying to memorize it one day before the exam.
>>12284374
In most countries you finish the equivalent of HS and go to law school.
>>12284379
Engaging is not just asking something you don't understand, is actually discussing the material further from what can be fitted in a few paragraphs.
>>12284392
>>12284384
>>12284392
Lmao, 4 usually but depends on the subject and no general studies memes. That's why you can go directly for a PhD without a masters in many countries.

[Anonymous No.12284408]

>>12284394
This really isnt much better than what we have here if thats the case. If you take a degree in engineering, many of the general studies courses are a part of the engineering degree

[Anonymous No.12284411]

>>12284402
>That's why you can go directly for a PhD without a masters in many countries.
you can do that in america too though

[Anonymous No.12284413]

>>12284397
Not sure what you mean there.

>>12284408
I dunno, at some of the burgerland program curricula I have seen (at average universities, mind you, not particularly good ones) the generalities where like 50% of the entire program, leaving perhaps 30% for the necessary basics of the program and 20% actual content. That "three times as much material" is a number I actually "measured" (read: estimated) from curricula of programs here in yurop versus those average burger programs.

[Anonymous No.12284417]

>>12284411
Yes, but it is not generally recommended. The problem is that masters is a weird buffer between what should and can be covered in undergrad and grad level shit.

[Anonymous No.12284418]

>>12284379
The most gifted spend time talking to professors in the breaks and after class about ideas above and beyond what the lecture could cover, anon. That is what real engagement looks like.

[Anonymous No.12284422]

>>12284417
What do burgericans not do at undergraduate?

[Anonymous No.12284438]

>>12283178
>access to labs
AND NETWORKING
If you stay holed up in your dorm until it's time to go to class/lab, you are absolutely doing it WRONG.

[Anonymous No.12284444]

>>12284422
I have heard it from people in all fields, but in math their understanding of real analysis is "rigorous calculus", usually they have no knowledge of topology, modern algebra differential geometry, complex analysis or other more advanced, but important topics. Obviously it depends because there are "advanced placement" programs which elsewhere is the typical curriculum.

[Anonymous No.12284460]

>>12284422
In yurop, how it works is that undergraduate generally covers material that is broadly applicable to everyone working in a field of study that is as broad as (ex.) "chemistry", whereas the masters program teaches the advanced material, as well as unpolished state-of-the-art research material, in a specific specialization area that you want to focus on. As such, it's very much a requirement for any PhD program.

[Anonymous No.12284483]

>>12284413
>Not sure what you mean there.
how many hours are required to earn an undergrad degree where you live?

[Anonymous No.12284490]

>>12284413
>the generalities where like 50% of the entire program, leaving perhaps 30% for the necessary basics of the program and 20% actual content. That "three times as much material" is a number I actually "measured" (read: estimated) from curricula of programs here in yurop versus those average burger programs.
Yeah but what majors were you looking at?

[Anonymous No.12284515]

>>12284178
>Accreditation for what you fucking retard?
Despite your retarded moaning, we live in a society where undergraduate degrees confer status similar to other certification despite the fact that undergraduate degrees require you to take a four year course by the group who evaluates you. This is surreal.

>You actually believe it is the same thing because it uses this basic structure? Lmao you understand you have to also take tests at grad school right?
Yes, high-school and undergraduate programs are similar because the core structure is similar. Yes, people take tests in graduate school, but the tests are secondary. If more classes was the main point of graduate school it would just be high-school 3, as some masters programs are. The main purpose of graduate school is to prepare students for research by having them perform research in a safe low stakes environment with a mentor to guide them. Students are taught with hands on experience, like a trade school. This is why graduate school admissions are so different than undergraduate admissions. Graduate school is not just a reward for getting grades. Admission is determined by professors and professors want students who show research potential, not just get good grades. I have an undergraduate degree. I remember how syllabus was laid out, the lecture format, the homework assignments, and the tests. The techniques for passing classes were the same then as they were in high-school as they are for nearly all undergraduate programs. Everything "formative" I was involved in, like research or club events, happened outside of the graduation requirements.

>Jesus christ, my point is that unis are not banks or information. It is an institution that is designed not only for you to learn a bunch random facts, but form you with a particular profile, a set of skills that are known to be important in the field.
There is zero evidence universities provide an experience for undergraduates more formative than high-school.

[Anonymous No.12284518]

>>12284483
I see. Required amount of studying is not typically measured in hours at least where I studied, but I looked it up and it's apparently 3 years of 60 credits per year at 28 studying hours per credit, totaling 5040 studying hours in an undergrad program.

[Anonymous No.12284519]

>>12284386
>The most obvious difference in the program is that in continental Europe (which is the system I know best, for obvious reasons), university programs don't have general requirement courses. Every single course is directly applicable to the topic you are studying. Which means they can cover about three times as much topical material as is common in American undergrads.
So it's exactly the same, but the curriculum is different?

[Anonymous No.12284559]

>>12284518
ok, that is completely different from how we do it here. I dont know how to compare

[Anonymous No.12284763]

>>12284515
>Despite your retarded moaning, we live in a society where undergraduate degrees confer status similar to other certification despite the fact that undergraduate degrees require you to take a four year course by the group who evaluates you.
FOR FUCKING WHAT, GIVE A SINGLE EXAMPLE. Also I don't live in your dystopian shithole you fat american mutt

[Anonymous No.12284772]

>>12283178
prussian education system
>The school must fashion the person, and fashion him in such a way, that he simply cannot will otherwise than what you wish him to will

[Anonymous No.12284774]

>>12283178
https://www.revistadyna.com/news-2/the-myth-of-the-factory-model-education-of-industrial-revolution

[Anonymous No.12284788]

>>12284763
You dont think that people with undergrad degrees will be more likely to get hired than someone without an undergrad degree?

[Anonymous No.12284822]

>imagine a professor tells you the proof could be one of literally anything and the only way to pass the final is to internalize the fundamentals and be able to build on your base of knowledge to arrive at the answer. This is how almost all tests are specifically to discourage dumb students from trying to cheat the system to their own detriment because all they're doing is fucking themselves over with compounding knowledge debt. A truly smart person would understand that learning something once is better and easier than memorizing something for the brief period of time it's needed a thousand times. You're just lazy and trying to justify your laziness by trying to point out how a system isn't perfectly designed to optimize your potential. Why fight so hard against knowing things? Are you really so vapid that knowledge can't justify itself? Any system is going to fall apart if you actively fight against it.
some guy on /a/ posted this against me, I don't really have space for a full rebuttal but basically my reply is that I'm the smartest human being on the planet and if I'm not, then the university has no right giving me such high grades when according to this poster I am doing everything "wrong". Either I am right or the entire school system is wrong and in both scenarios it turns out that I am right, because my point is that tests are pointless (please see the full reply chain starting here for further details >>>/a/210813031
)

[Anonymous No.12284852]

>>12284788
For what? Do you think after undergrad you just go to the job market to get a job? Some jobs require no prior experience some require 4 year college, so what? My whole point was that college in many cases is tailored towards academia and that's why there are technical or trade schools. You burgers created a meme college system where you get in debt for subpar unstructured education just to get some "experience" but no one in the world follows that fucking model. Uni is supposed to be specialized education for specialized subjects which by the nature will have a really competitive and tough labor environment. But this doesn't mean it is useless, it just means that if you are going for some cushy job, then don't major in physics and get a life debt.

[Anonymous No.12284868]

>>12284852
it doesnt matter what you think uni is supposed to be for. Employers care a lot about having a college degree, so now having a degree is needed to get jobs that people a generation ago did with only a high school degree. Even if a job does not require a college degree, if multiple people apply that have a college degree, it is unlikely that someone will be able to get that job without a college degree.

[Anonymous No.12284872]

>>12284868
Again could you provide examples?

[Anonymous No.12284900]

>>12284872
examples of what? That employers value college degrees over high school degrees?

[Anonymous No.12284903]

>>12284872
>>12284900
If its the case that you want examples that college is valued by employers, literally the book in the thumbnail gives plenty of evidence. The guy who wrote it is an economics professor.

[Anonymous No.12284913]

>>12284900
What jobs require a college degree that before only required hs? Middle management? Salesman? Lol yea college degree are more valuable than HS that's obvious. What has changed is the same jobs pay less and the middle class in America has disappeared.

[Anonymous No.12285419]

>>12283178
>The only reason to go the a university would be access to labs
If that's really the only reason you can think of, university is not for you.

[Anonymous No.12285444]

>>12283178

He has always been the most rat-faced kike of them all. That stupid crooked "I'm smart" grin.

[Anonymous No.12285509]

>le open borders good cuz muh GDP man thinks an educated society is bad
who would'a thunk it

[Anonymous No.12286118]

>>12283215
Society got memed on with general education rather then specialization, because when the education system was being establish in the industrial revolution workers needed to be interchangeable rather than specialized like in a highly skilled technological society.

[Anonymous No.12286315]

>>12283215
but then Mr. Noseberg won't be able to trap you in debt slavery for the rest of your life

[Anonymous No.12286614]

>>12285509
Well, hes right about that though. Its pretty simple economics

[Anonymous No.12286624]

>>12285419
Its more of one of the only reasons why you could justify the cost.The most important reason is signaling which is talked about in his book

[Anonymous No.12286681]

>>12286118
the majority of workers still are not in highly specialized jobs though. Most people work in retail and crap like that which mostly just needs a body with the minimum amount of mental work

[Anonymous No.12286693]

>>12285509
>muh GDP man thinks an educated society is bad
You obviously dont know anything about his book. People who go to higher education forget almost everything they learned while in school. Its a complete drain on society to have people spend 4 years of their lives studying things that they will just forget once they graduate due to what they learned being irrelevant to their future

[Anonymous No.12286698]

>>12283257
>pen and paper and computers
>research
anon... im sorry

[Anonymous No.12286732]

>>12286698
go on. I think youve missed my point or else you are off base somewhere

[Anonymous No.12286787]

>>12286614
No, he's wrong on both instances, fairly simple economics really

[Anonymous No.12286793]

>>12286787
No. Heres what he has to say about it becuase IM sure you dont know. You have some guy in Somalia. How productive can he be in Somalia, not very productive. But if you move him to the united states, even if its a low paying job, its astronomically higher than what he couldve made in Somalia. And its not just that we are nicer to him and want to pay him more. Its that the jobs he can do here are far more productive than what he could do in Somalia. Borders are basically just keeping people from being far more productive than they are in their home country and the world would be far more richer if we allowed these people to go after more productive jobs.

[Anonymous No.12286795]

>>12283671
>What undergraduate degree requires access to a nuclear research laboratory?
Grad studies are higher education too, nigger

[Anonymous No.12286807]

>>12286795
even so, the majority of grad students are in fields that do not require expensive labs or anything of the sort. The humanities, the arts, the social sciences, these do not require much.

[Anonymous No.12286818]

>>12286793
This is probably one of the stupidest posts i have ever had the displeasure of reading in my shamefully long history lurking this site.
You don't even understand what is meant by productivity, you probably don't even know what productive labour is. Why the fuck would you comment on something that you know nothing about?
Don't bother replying.

[Anonymous No.12286822]

>>12286818
kek, btfo by a jews argument

[Anonymous No.12286826]

I feel like I've just been aimlessly fucking around from 5th grade all the way up to college graduation. I would finish my school responsibilities in an hour, and do nothing the rest of the day. It never dawned on me that I had the free will to not follow the daily life model made for retards. What I wouldn't do to go back and make more efficient use of my time...

[Anonymous No.12286828]

>>12286826
>I feel like I've just been aimlessly fucking around from 5th grade all the way up to college graduation. I would finish my school responsibilities in an hour, and do nothing the rest of the day. It never dawned on me that I had the free will to not follow the daily life model made for retards. What I wouldn't do to go back and make more efficient use of my time...
I too wish I couldve been homeschooled or rather unshooled like many libertarian parents do with their kids.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/freedom-learn/201406/survey-grown-unschoolers-ii-going-college

[Anonymous No.12286879]

>>12286793
There isn't an unlimited supply of jobs anywhere and the market expansion produced by an increase in unskilled labour is marginal compared to the economic downsides it brings, which would make jobs even scarcer. For instance, an increased pressure in the housing market will ultimately harm the purchasing saving and investing power of the vast majority of young people, even thouhg the landlords would receive higher revenue, as the youth aka the productive labour forces in the market are drained of an impotant portion of their income.
And i'm not even getting into the futurist' fuckery like automation mind you, in which unemployment will increase as a secular trend as will social unrest once capitalism approaches full automation.

[Anonymous No.12286921]

>>12286795
>Grad studies are higher education too, nigger
Yeah, but they're not a scam like undergraduate degrees are.

[Anonymous No.12286953]

>>12286879
its pretty much a common sentiment that any downsides to open borders would be offset by the upsides since the upside is that the worlds wealth would triple.

[Anonymous No.12287037]

>>12286953
>its pretty much a common sentiment that
irrelevant
>any downsides to open borders would be offset by the upsides
I offered you an specific example adressing this. The downsides of an unstable housing market would already be an insurmountable crisis given the nature of housing itself. To this i could add many more issues like the automation problem i hinted at before but i actually believe just this example is enough (and you probably know this too since you don't even try to adress it).
>The upside is that the worlds wealth would triple
Cool slogan, too bad it's magical thinking.

[Anonymous No.12287966]

>>12286681
Retail can be a lot of mental work in the States, where you often can't just tell asshole customers to fuck off (because of a widely popular misinterpretation of the phrase "The customer is always right" which originally only applied to the concept of demand in microeconomics.)