/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.12158655]

neuroplasticity. why is there such a steep drop at such a young age? i get the reason for it being so high is language acquisition, etc. but why lose it so quick? what is the evolutionary purpose of this, scientifically speaking? wouldn't it be better to maintain high neuroplasticity as long as the physiology can maintain it? what would happen if we were able to restore young child lvl neuroplasticity in an adult?

[Anonymous No.12158696]

>>12158655
No evolutionary reason. Copper deficiency makes your synapses get stuck after computation, which means you essentially use up the areas you use the most. We most likely evolved in an environment far richer in copper before people collected it as a (semi)precious metal. You can see things like verdigris pouring out of rocks in remote areas like the Antarctica that cannot be seen in settled areas.

[Anonymous No.12159299]

>>12158655
Because reproduction is front loaded. The number of people conceived by parents 30+ has been historically quite low.
That means ability is more important early in life, as that is when the race for reproduction happens.

[Anonymous No.12159303]

>>12158655
>>12158696
>>12159299
I fucked around in school and never learned anything, played video games all day and lived off my parents like a NEET, I'm in school now at 25 and have no problem learning.

[Anonymous No.12159309]

>>12159303
I doubt it from that post.

[Anonymous No.12159316]

>>12158655
You have to strike a balance between being flexible in learning and having trained, crystallized skillset. Too much plasticity forever can be detrimental (we weren't selected for unconstricted creativity). Also, for reasons not entirely understood, the brain comes with way too many neurons that are getting trimmed during the learning process and that seems to be the nature of human development.

[Anonymous No.12160233]

>>12158696
>Copper deficiency makes your synapses get stuck after computation
Citation needed.

[Anonymous No.12160239]

>>12158655
>WHAT IS THE EVOLUTIONARY PURPOSE OF DYING?

>WHAT IS THE EVOLUTIONARY PURPOSE OF STARS GETTING BIG

>WHAT IS THE EVOLUTIONARY PURPOSE OF GALAXIES SPINNING?

Can the mods filter "evolutionary purpose" into "I'm a fucking retard"?

[Anonymous No.12160259]

>>12160239
what is the evolutionary purpose of this seething?

[Anonymous No.12160314]

>>12160233
https://www.hindawi.com/journals/ijad/2011/864753/

Also, you could google the image.

[Anonymous No.12160320]

>>12158655
I guess high rate of learning also implies high rate of forgetting previous knowledge so you want to slow down updates when you learned basics

[Anonymous No.12160324]

>>12160239
I also hate those idiots who think everything has an evolutionary purpose, but one cannot deny that our body has evolved into a complex system which optimizes in its own way certain parameters.
At least that's my punny mortal human point of view.

[Anonymous No.12160377]

>>12158696
Not the cooper schizo again

[Anonymous No.12160426]

>no scale or variable type
Wonderful graph.

[Anonymous No.12160489]

>>12159303
I had a bunch of family drama that kept me from graduating from university until I was 29, with most of my courses being completed in those last two years. It wasn't all that more difficult than when I was 18 and first took Calc I but I could tell a small difference. It was offset though by better diligence and ability to block out distractions. Now at 49 I can't imagine going through all of that again. Most learning these days needs to be built on top of what I already know. If it turned out tomorrow that our model of the atom was completely wrong and a newer model explained things better, I doubt I'd bother trying to learn the new way. The existing way has calcified itself into my brain.

[Anonymous No.12160527]

>>12160426
>he doesn’t understand qualitative interpretations of dynamical systems
>he can’t see the essential in the particular
You are STOOPID

[Anonymous No.12160768]

>>12158655
i'm 36 getting a bachelor's in mechanical engineering and i viscerally feel this image

[Anonymous No.12161311]

>>12160768
I was 30 when I started learning Japanese, did Nihongonoriukishiken 4 and 3. So it can be done.

[Anonymous No.12162743]

>>12159303
You are Immensely Retarded

[Anonymous No.12162748]

>>12158655
>amount of effort such change requires
define effort

[Anonymous No.12162844]

>>12158655
Because arbitrary stimulation or pattern recognition has less impact on older minds who have found it faster to simply detach or discard rather than endure something in the hopes of learning something via the churn process.

[Anonymous No.12162847]

>>12162748
You typing that response took effort on a scale of 1 4chanfagometers.

[Anonymous No.12162872]

>>12161311
4 and 3 are super easy though

[Anonymous No.12162887]

>>12158655
This chart is a joke right? What is the Y dimension here?

[Anonymous No.12162894]

>>12158696
Interesting idea. Any evidence for it?

[Anonymous No.12163083]

>>12159309
>>12162743
My family is very wealthy and I saw no incentive to put any effort into anything. Plus my dad was working 24/7.

[Anonymous No.12163088]

>>12158655
How can neuroplasticity be maintained?
(Except for exercise and diet such as fish.)

[Anonymous No.12163457]

>>12162894
You can google the image and I already posted the link above.

[Anonymous No.12163476]

as you get older, i'm starting to experience this now, but there definitely is a level of intelligence crystallization that happens. a level of solidification in the brain. i don't care what anybody else says about how "it's never too late to learn a skill" or "you can go back to college at age 40 and totally change your life and pick something up and make a new life for yourself". that's complete fucking bullshit. by the time you hit your late 20s. by the time you're in your 30s. and definitely in your mid-30s. who you are as a person, usually your opinions, definitely your skill set, these things are all solidified. that's done. by the time you're 29... 28. forget about learning a new skill. that's not gonna happen. alright? i'm sorry to tell you this. but maybe you know you could get a hobby level. maybe you learn how to press flowers. but your ability to learn something at a level where it's professional, semi-professional, worth money to somebody else, able to use it to do something significant, not gonna happen. you're done.

[Anonymous No.12163508]

>>12163476
--->>>12158696

[Anonymous No.12163514]

>>12158655
You can take valproate to get high neuroplasticity again.

[Anonymous No.12163517]

>>12163508
And stop endlessly asking for fucking sources, just try taking it. Being able to actually hear a foreign language for real is eye opening.

[Anonymous No.12163608]

>>12162872
Still, there were things to be learned. And I also spent only 2 years in Japan. Yet what I learned was enough to travel around the country.

[Anonymous No.12163621]

>>12162887
Can someone answer this? In what world can an ability and an amount of effort be represented in the same axis? This is why we don't take you seriously as scientists, shrinks.

[Anonymous No.12163662]

>>12163517
How much bro? My multi has 1mg of copper in it.

[Anonymous No.12163881]

>>12163662
Not enough. Just use a copper mugs (or coins, but check they are pure copper) and juice or tea. It will start tasting bitter or gross once you don't need more.

[Anonymous No.12163884]

>>12163662
Not enough. Just use a copper mug or coins (but check they are real and pure copper) and juice or tea. It will start tasting bitter or gross once you don't need more.

[Anonymous No.12163989]

>>12158655

Mainly 2 reasons:

>Optimization
Brain areas that are not used are being 'repurposed'. For example the visual cortex of people that become blind start to process auditory and tactile input. So I guess you can imagine what a high degree of neuroplasticity after childhood would mean: you would lose skills and forget knowledge as fast as you have learned them, because the neurons that helped you learn them would get repurposed.

>Attention
High neuroplasticity also means you are much more attentive to ALL stimuli surrounding you all the time, making you much less efficient at filtering important data from your environment

[Anonymous No.12164009]

>>12160489
>>12163476
>>12160768

Frens, don't plunge into fatalism. Read 'The Brain That Changes Itself', trust me. If people can recover from debilitating strokes and literal mental retardation through perseverence, you can do it too
We're all gonna make it brehs

[Anonymous No.12164039]

>>12164009
>recover from literal mental retardation
Really? Papers on this?

[Anonymous No.12164243]

>>12163989
>High neuroplasticity also means you are much more attentive to ALL stimuli surrounding you all the time, making you much less efficient at filtering important data from your environment
That's actually another thing you gain from taking copper. You are far more aware of your surroundings, see the whole field of vision (the central vision is only sharper) etc.

[Anonymous No.12164257]

High neuroplasticity means you learn things quickly, but you also forget things quickly.
Why do you think most people have no recollection of the first 5 years of their lives?
Very high neuroplasticity is an advantage in childhood - to quickly learn a language and basic life skills - but becomes a liability in adulthood

[Anonymous No.12164286]

>>12164257
Just wanted to reply this.

[Anonymous No.12164469]

>>12162887
>>12163621
Still waiting for answer frens

[Anonymous No.12164494]

>>12164469
never heard of two Y axis graphs? lol

[Anonymous No.12164514]

>>12162887
>>12163621
>>12164469
No idea what your fucking problem is. This is perfectly normal.

[Anonymous No.12164565]

>>12164514
>take data
>plug results in to get new data
>put this new data side by side on the first set on a graph

This is for gullible dummies. Explain what happens at the point of inflection? Do you actually start becoming worse at something you previously were good at? Ridiculous.

[Anonymous No.12164587]

>>12164565
>Do you actually start becoming worse at something you previously were good at?
>The brain's ability to change in response to experiences.
>The amount of effort such change requires.
lrn2literate

[Anonymous No.12164602]

>>12164587
Its sarcasm. The onus is on you to explain what happens at the point of inflection if you defend this preposterous clickbait. I literally had to make something up because as far as I can tell there is nothing significant to the data represented by the inflection at age 30. You might as well make a graph between the brain's ability to change in response to experience and number of toys owned.

[Anonymous No.12164653]

>>12164602
>there is nothing significant to the data represented by the inflection at age 30.
what are you talking about, you doofus?? There's no point of inflection. Both these curves are concave throught the entire domain

[Anonymous No.12164654]

>>12164602
>the point of inflection
What the fuck are you talking about?

[Anonymous No.12164657]

>>12164654
>>12164653
>lets just pretend the graphs don't cross to be extra annoying.

[Anonymous No.12164667]

>>12164657
This dude actually thinks that the intesection of two functions = the point of inflection

[Anonymous No.12164677]

>>12164667
>This dude actually thinks
Wrong.

[Anonymous No.12164680]

>>12158655
>2009
Hasn't the view on neuroplasticity shifted since then? I think mindset may matter somewhat, and experiences. An older person who believes they've learned enough and mostly stay home are going to experience less neuroplasticity than an older person who strives to learn new things and stimulates their life with novel experiences. Exercise also improves neuroplasticity.

[Anonymous No.12164691]

>>12164667
Whatever its called, you still have to explain what its doing, you dumb doomers.

[Anonymous No.12164710]

>>12163476
Hurrrrr durrrrrr
Not everyone needs to rebuild their brain to learn a new skill. I'm almost thirty and just learned coding and cars and it actually only took a few nights or less reading about individual subjects to understand them. You may have skill you had as a kid that was never used for decades. It is possible to pick it back up and simply exercising that skill will rebuild and improve the skill. What exactly is so fucking hard about skills? Attitudes and philosophies change gradually over time and even a 30 yo is a very different person in a decade or two.

Chances are people are coasting by age 30. How often do 30 yos need to learn new skills? People become broken records but it's not their brains faults it's their routine lives

[Anonymous No.12164714]

>>12163476
So what is Sam's skillset?

[Anonymous No.12164715]

>>12164691
Have you never seen a graph where two different qualities are plotted against a common X axis? The point where the lines intersect (graphically) doesn't actually mean anything, because it depends entirely on how you scale the Y axes

[Anonymous No.12164727]

>>12164715
Oh yeah, because the didn't color the area under the curve to emphasize it or anything.

[Anonymous No.12164738]

>>12164727
The coloring is retarded and unnecessary, but still, nothing happens at the """inflection point""" because the two curves are different quantities, just plotted against a common X axis

[Anonymous No.12164749]

>>12164738
That was my point. The graph is clickbait arbitrarily trying to correlate fundamentally different data. Thanks for the concession.

[Anonymous No.12164752]

>>12163476
my doctor was an engineer until he was 37 then went back to medical school and now is a practicing orthopedic surgeon. So this breaks your entire argument sorry about that kek.

[Anonymous No.12164755]

>>12158655
>what is the evolutionary purpose of this, scientifically speaking? wouldn't it be better to maintain high neuroplasticity as long as the physiology can maintain it?

Perhaps,

If a society/group with low plasticity becomes successful, a group who change to easily won't win against them, they will instead merge. Being convinced by the low-plasticity people.

Person A is easily convinced and easily adaptable.
Person B is hard to convince and hard to adapt.
Person B's opinion will be the one that's followed in 9 of 10 cases.

[Anonymous No.12164759]

>>12164752
>Chad keeps being Chad

Okay, what about the rest of us firmly within the bell?

[Anonymous No.12164769]

reasoning: there is (was) no evolutionary need to maintain a degree of intelligence past reproductive age. this is not a "young age" to drop - fertility peaks in the early 20s.

mechanism:
1.neurons die out rapidly as humans age and are not replaced. neurogenesis is basically only guaranteed in young people up to the age of ~25. neurogenesis can be stimulated in adults through certain drugs, exercise, good sleep, variety in experiences and environment, language learning, some other things etc. but you will never get that young growth rate back. it's over.
plasticity is ability to form connection between neurons.
2. proteins aggregate in the brain into large clumps such as "lewy bodies" disrupting function. i didn't learn much about this but you can look it up. this eventually causes neurodegenerative disease.

[Anonymous No.12164770]

>>12164759
did you ever think about trying a bit? I used to work in fast food and now I'm in my third year of engineering after taking upgrade courses at community college while working fast food to get into a program. I'm also 27.

[Anonymous No.12164779]

>>12164770
No, I am a doomer retard so I pretty much just complain without putting the slightest modicum of effort in. Bloody bureaucrats man, we're just overly-evolved lobsters.

[Anonymous No.12164795]

>>12163621
>>12164469
the y axis is labeled you pedant

[Anonymous No.12164819]

>>12163088
SSRIs induce neurogenesis and increase neuroplasticity especially in the hyppocampus by increasing levels of BDNF in the brain

[Anonymous No.12164822]

>>12164779
you don't even need to be smart to succeed in undergrad. I thought I was going to be the dumb one but you'll see when you get in undergrad and hear some of the questions that get repeated every lecture that'll show you anyone that puts in effort can get a bachelors in anything... save actual retardation. But laziness doesn't count.

[Anonymous No.12164879]

>>12163517
Apparently copper supplementation causes Alzheimer's: https://drmasley.com/is-your-multivitamin-or-plumbing-hurting-your-memory/

You're going to have to give me more info than just some jargon-riddled mouse study.

[Anonymous No.12164883]

>>12164822
I was clearly being facetious

[Anonymous No.12164919]

>>12160239
If the (either strong or weak) anthropic principle is valid then those three questions are valid.

[Anonymous No.12164958]

>>12160768
I'm 64 and I'm retraining for software engineering. I have no doubt I'll get there although it might take longer than my initial estimate.

[Anonymous No.12164979]

>>12164680
Correct! I've struggled all my life NOT to want to learn about everything I see and instead to focus on what needs to be done right now. Why else would I be on f'ing 4chan when my contemporaries are watching sport?

[Anonymous No.12164998]

>>12158655
The graph is almost meaningless because not only is the vertical scale of each function omitted but we aren't even told whether it is linear or starting at zero. All we know is that one goes up and the other goes down. Big deal (not).

[Anonymous No.12165062]

>>12164879
No it doesn't. In fact copper ***deficiency*** has been implicated in causing Alzheimers. Post something else than some random ass blog.

[Anonymous No.12165158]

>>12158696
What do you get out of posting this shit every week

[Anonymous No.12165173]

>>12165158
Clearly to raise awareness. If you werent a retard you'd know that

[Anonymous No.12165185]

>>12165062
Granted I could find a some evidence pointing towards copper deficiency as a cause (as usual it seems with any topic you can find not just conflicting but diametrically opposed suggested methods of causation), but here's a paper which makes the connection between copper and Alzheimer's as well. It makes the distinction between inorganic and organic copper, with only the former being dangerous, but if you're indeed using copper mugs to get your copper that would be inorganic.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4030141/

[Anonymous No.12165218]

>>12165062
>>12165185
Specific excerpt addressing studies finding copper deficiency as a cause for Alzheimer's:
>Some authors have concluded the opposite, that copper deficiency is a causal factor in AD. An example of this is Klevay (2008), who hypothesize just that, that AD is copper deficiency. However, this hypothesis is not well thought out, since AD patients display none of the manifestations of copper deficiency, which are a very low serum copper, anemia and bone marrow depression, and myelopolyneuropathy neurologic syndrome. Another example is Kessler et al. (2008) who gave copper to AD patients, and claimed to see no worsening. They saw no improvement either, which disproved their hypothesis that patients were suffering from copper deficiency. We believe that ingestion of a high fat diet is another important risk factor for AD, and that these two, ingestion of inorganic copper plus a higher fat diet, set the stage on which the other risk factors act.

[Anonymous No.12165946]

>>12159299
the elites and high-class historically very often produced offspring at later ages, at least the men did. its only the peasants that would always give birth young.

[Anonymous No.12166500]

>>12165218
>Another example is Kessler et al. (2008) who gave copper to AD patients, and claimed to see no worsening. They saw no improvement either, which disproved their hypothesis that patients were suffering from copper deficiency.
It doesn't disprove that, since theh supplemented just enough to prevent further copper loss, and the treatment group had lower levels in the first place:
>mean plasma Cu was decreased over time in the placebo group (t12vs.t0:t12mean±SD=98.5±17.7μg/dl andt0mean±SD=109±23.4μg/dl; −7.5%), but stabilized in the verum group (t12vs.t0:t12mean±SD=100.8±21.6μg/dl andt0mean±SD=100.7±15.3μg/dl; +2.3%).

[Anonymous No.12166512]

>>12166500
Also it's questionable why they supplemented with such a nonstandard substance, almost as if they were trying to prove it doesn't work and found something that won't get absorbed well.

[Anonymous No.12166634]

>>12164009
fit lit master race
and sprinkle with Heaviside

[Anonymous No.12166644]

>>12163476
you got a journey coming up, buddy
and it's name is wisdom

[Anonymous No.12166651]

>>12164769
here you go, fren
91 years old, enjoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FawIkrCey0

[Anonymous No.12166667]

>>12164958
good to hear, i hope you got some old school wizards guiding you, and not the crazy neo bunch of the last 20 years of programming madness

tell me, do you have any political alignment in software? do you know about the history of the pioneers in the 70's? do you educate yourself regarding the human aspect of software, it's licensing and philosophy?
if you are mostly in it for the income and profession, this is absolutely ok and welcomed, and a blessing to secure your physical environment
best of luck