/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.12112358]

>Take a substance to fuck up your brain chemistry.
>It obviously fucks up your perception of the world in an obviously insane and culturally biased way.
>Cause trauma and long term brain damage.
>"it's so deep man god exists too psychodelics can solve all your problems it cured my depression bro try it out bro it's good for mental health haha xd"

Is there any scientific data that proves that psychodelics really help with anything, be it brain health or mental issues? I know it can "cure" depression but between my friends, the usage has brought just some pseudo revelations of the world and PTSD. Really wondering if it brings more harm than good. That's like becoming a schizo for a limited period of time and calling it mind opening.

[Anonymous No.12112367]

Ecstasy and certain research chemicals are the only psychedelics that are known to cause brain damage

[Anonymous No.12112381]

>>12112358
its rolling the dice with your braincells at stake.

[Anonymous No.12112408]

>>12112367
You can still be induced to PTSD if you use LSD or DMT, it's a dice roll.

[Anonymous No.12112410]

>you only have one lens perceive the world with
>but nothing can be gained by temporarily warping it
Yeah whatever, fag.

[Anonymous No.12112415]

>>12112358
>That's like becoming a schizo for a limited period of time and calling it mind opening.
This is true though

[Anonymous No.12112416]

If you're weak minded, psychedelics makes you delusional (muh truth, muh consciousness, muh connection to the universe) and potentially harms yourself short/long terms.
If you're strong minded, doing them is just like going to the cinema.

[Anonymous No.12112441]

>>12112408
Also paranoia, I was told.

>>12112416
Ah yes, the true Scotsman at work.

[Anonymous No.12112448]

>>12112441
He's right, though.
Those with a weak heart shouldn't take stimulants. Those with an unstable mind shouldn't take psychedelics.

[Anonymous No.12112513]

>>12112415
>Hear voices and see hallucinations of steampunk goblins.
>"mind opening"
You just self induce yourself in a dream, there is nothing to gain on it besides pseudo knowledge because the scenario is pretty and it makes you feel weird emotions induced by brainfuckery.
>>12112416
I'm fine with people treating it like a cinema with possible adverse effects, as it is with alcohol in a different degree, but all that pseudo mind opening bullshit is cringe.

[Anonymous No.12112534]

>>12112358
Yes, there is evidence that psychedelics can be used medically.
No, this does not necessarily mean you can just do shrooms and cure your PTSD.

[Anonymous No.12112537]

>>12112513
Yes, how is that not "mind opening"? What's a genuinely mind-opening experience?

[Anonymous No.12112540]

>>12112513
>>12112537
Also you've clearly never done psychs if you think they make you hear voices and seeing hallucinations like some cartoon

[Anonymous No.12112548]

>>12112540
Datura, DMT, Salvia and etc all provoke hallucinations, what are you on about.
>>12112537
Maybe for a fedora or redditor, yes.

[Anonymous No.12112556]

>>12112548
True, but LSD, shrooms and ecstasy generally do not
Again, what would be a genuinely mind-opening experience?

[Anonymous No.12112569]

>this isn't mind expanding

[Anonymous No.12112601]

What do you faggots mean by mind opening?
I did a heavy dose of LSD once, and while the visuals were crazy and shit I wouldn't call it mind opening because it didn't reveal any life changing truth.
My perception of things was fully altered, but that fact was something falling within the bounds of my expectations.
If you're one of those influenceable faggots who think an LSD experience is proof the mind lives in its own separate world, know that you're a pathetic clown and should leave this board at once.

[Anonymous No.12112642]

Leor Roseman took damaged people and allowed them to see how could live together with people who those they had previousl considered an uncompromising threat.

Ex-military israelis and violated palestinians were able to come to a psychedelic revelatory experience which removed their set perceptions of threat from each other and come to a peaceful (if semi-psychotic) compromise to living in a world of implied social terror acceptingly. its very impressive

It means a lot in a world where commies 'punch nazis' and prevent the lives of conservatives, also the nazis they inspire see no other way but extermination.

I am interested in the effect of repeated long term marijuana use which appears to cristalise perceived behavioral outcomes, versus single use ayahuasca which can release you from any preconceptions and ffrom banging your head against a wall.

In contrast to weed, single ayahuasca use (along with a relevant experiential protocol) is able to allow individuals to radically change the understanding of their world, improve their behavioral choices (socially) and overcome VERY traumatic experiences.

They were not "programmed" by the drugs they were able to summon an their own unconscious to deliver them to a reasonable way forqward in order to throw down their weapons and defenses, and to know that peace is the only solution and compromise is necessary. Something seemingly totally alien to their experiences, their social situation, political choices and upbringing. ptsd anyone?

Depression and schizophrenia are exacerbated by negative social situations as well as experiences, and certain tailired protocols followed by psychoactive drugs can help you overcome this.

Most of the importance for the globe (BLM, White nationalism, China/america, Israel/Islam, resource competition, psychopathy, narcissism) - ridicules unending war and social bullshit - is so simply overcome by appropriate application of psychedelic drugs (along with appropriate protocols).

[Anonymous No.12112651]

>>12112642
I don't know how much weed you smoked when you wrote this but it can't be healthy.

[Anonymous No.12112694]

>>12112651

Did you read the bit where i talked about how long term weed use does the opposite of single use psychedelics?

..because i dont feel like you read that bit which the middle.

Anyway I had too much to drink tonight which is why i'm on this fun website.

Hey did you notice I gave you the researcher i consider relevant to answering the question correctly which no-one else did?

[Anonymous No.12112697]

>>12112694
No.

[Anonymous No.12112717]

>>12112601
You're just a boring pleb incapable of insight.

[Anonymous No.12112725]

>>12112697

ok

[Anonymous No.12112736]

>>12112717
>Y-You're boring!
Ok

[Anonymous No.12112744]

>>12112736
The people I've known who got nothing out of psychs were dullards.

[Anonymous No.12112764]

>>12112548.
>Datura, DMT, Salvia and etc all provoke hallucinations, what are you on about.
Salvia is fucking horrible. Don't know how people can enjoy that. What really bothered me with salvia was that I didn't know I was hallucinating while I was doing it. I had no idea where the fuck I was or what was going on. Made me feel really uncomfortable.
Shrooms are lovely, though. Things go a bit odd, but you're always aware that they're going a bit odd because you've ingested a psychotropic substance. That was my experience, anyway,

[Anonymous No.12112781]

>>12112744
Whatever floats your boat dude

[Anonymous No.12112785]

>>12112358
people who shill hallucinogens are the worst mouth breathers on the planet.
>it's not physically harmful dude!
>it will open your mind dude!
Schizophrenia and brain damage is no joke

[Anonymous No.12112817]

>>12112358
>psychodelics
Absolute retard.

[Anonymous No.12112832]

>>12112817
Someone needs to crack open a psycocodelic

[Anonymous No.12112896]

>>12112694
>>12112642
Cool posts

[They hated me cause i told the(...) No.12112904]

>>12112381
>>12112408
Its not a dice roll at all.
The truth is that the psychedelic experience is extremely hard to process - and minds that have not been hardened will crack under pressure thus getting ptsd, sure.
But that goes with any extreme experience, not just the intake of mind altering substances.

You will get ptsd from all sorts of things if you're not ready for them, that is all.

[Anonymous No.12112937]

>>12112416
>If you're an NPC, doing them is just like going to the cinema.
Fixed

[Anonymous No.12112941]

>>12112358
Ive smoked pot heavily and drank alcohol heavily every day since I was 12. I've done shrooms, acid, dmt, various pills, even coke and meth from time to time. For 15 years I've been wasted as shit every day.

My IQ is over 150 and I constantly intimidate people with my intelligence.

[Anonymous No.12112967]

>>12112937
You're wrong. NPCs are the first one being impressed and fooled by perception alteration.
A sane and rational mind is capable of immersing itself in this altered state with all its cognitive abilities and just enjoy the psychedelic experience for what it is: a fun trip, fully explained by brain chemistry and thus devoid of any groundbreaking "truths".
You dislike this explanation because your chimp brain wants to assign more meanings to psychedelic drugs than they actually hold. Rest assured you're not the only one being this delusional.

[Anonymous No.12112973]

>>12112967
>fully explained by brain chemistry
Talking out your ass.

[Anonymous No.12112983]

>>12112973
I'd be amused to hear about what other explanation you have for this phenomena.

[Anonymous No.12112989]

>>12112983
What you said is about as useful as saying it's fully explained by atoms. It's the secondary messengers that are important otherwise serotonin would be psychedelic, you know nothing of the science so STFU

[Anonymous No.12112999]

Psychedelics induce, among other things, an extreme dopaminergic state which is responsible for much of the pleasantness, creativity, problem solving, insight and i think the increase in body temperature. It's an extreme drug in tripping doses, so it's not a natural state, but it shouldn't be seen as a completely illegitimate intrusion on your psychology, but instead as a method to adjust the extant chemical features in the brain, similar to say aspirin. Also, Albert Hoffman did lsd all his life and died at 102. Look at the picture on Wikipedia of when he's 100 and tell me that man was harmed by his drug.

[Anonymous No.12113007]

>>12112989
Serotonin syndrome can cause hallucinations though

[Anonymous No.12113013]

>>12113007
Seems to be more a delirium than a psychedelic state.

[Anonymous No.12113017]

>>12112989
I fail to see any mind-bending/mind-opening/mind-altering/mind-bobbling truth in anything you said so far.

The universe we live in is a boring one. It's consistent, self contained, devoid of any paradox, and you can't escape it through the use of perception altering substances.
Our only way out is death, when causality will break from our perspective. But until then, better cope my dude.

[Anonymous No.12113025]

>>12113013
It's it?

[Anonymous No.12113032]

>>12113017
Psychs allow you to explore more of the qualia space which is profound enough, your lack of due reverence for the great mysteries of consciousness speaks to the utter poverty of a scientistic view.

[Anonymous No.12113058]

>>12112358
You only lose your mind if you were prone to losing it why don't you try it yourself op?

[Anonymous No.12113067]

>>12112967
I second >>12112973, currently nobody knows how the fuck psychedelics produce the wide range of conscious-altering effects other than "muh serotonin" which is a very simplistic and incomplete approach. Also why do they have such a long-lasting impact on behavior at relatively short dosages (a single 100ug dose of LSD can completely alter deeply ingrained behaviors like alcoholism/ptsd) after they're long gone from the body.

[Anonymous No.12113116]

>>12113032
Sorry, but I'm not impressed by consciousness.
It's neat that we can feel a boundary between the self and the world, but ultimately it's a mere concept among infinitely many others.
At first, I'll admit, I was intrigued by it, startled and even impressed. Why the fuck is there a I? And then I realized the euphoria I felt thinking about my own inner thought process was just a mechanism deployed by my brain to gratify itself; a mere evolutionary process that would incite me to value myself more than what I actually am.
What about consciousness itself? It can be broken down into smaller concepts, into qualia bits which can themselves be divided into smaller and smaller components, until there's nothing left.

Thinking about our own thought process is deceiving. It makes us feel like there's more to us. Evolution made us feel this way to ensure we would pursue our vain endeavors. It didn't plan that some people would actually see through this illusion.
We exist, then what? That's one concept. The concept of a subjective observer. The sum of arbitrary qualias.
There's nothing special about us. And switching one qualia for another with LSD doesn't change that fact.

The only great mysteries that keep me awake at night are how nothingness came about, and how everything stems from it.

[Anonymous No.12113157]

>>12112601
Take a higher dose, try 300ug

[Anonymous No.12113161]

>>12113116
Your evolutionary psychologizing is a conjecture and you have no evidentiary basis for it. The main thing about qualia is its very irreducibility, so no you can't break it down until nothing's left. I can't imagine what it's like to be someone like you, it's sad, you've been poisoned against a sense of the true miraculousness of that which is closest to you by a pseudo-explanation which is not even scientific. And neither BTW is Nothingness or the notion everything comes from it, which is rather metaphysical speculation. You haven't figured out consciousness, if you had you'd be the most important scientist in history. Just one fraction of a second of ordinary experience is inexaustibly richer than the entire scientific world picture.

[Anonymous No.12113188]

>>12112358
first of all, mystical experiences are just as valid as any other experience you have.
second, psyches generally don't cause long-term damage, under any meaningful definition of damage. you wouldn't say a match inherently causes damage by existing, even though it can cause damage if you light it near some gasoline.
third, there obviously MUST be some aspect of it that is mind-opening, as it literally alters people's personalities to be more open to change and novelty.

tl;dr: you're a dummy. consider being less of a dummy.

[Anonymous No.12113236]

>>12113161
Well, you think what you want. Though I'd say it's pointless to be sadden by what I am or have become.

I just want to delve into the presumed irreducible nature of qualia.
Let's take the example of the sensation of the color red.
When you feel that an object is red, do you always feel the same redness? No you don't. Things are more or less red. And as such you can order them on a line, say that one is redder than the other. Just like numbers. What if redness was merely a number then? Well, that would be pretty convenient, because that would remove the need for us to rely on an absolute concept that gives us no other information than it's existence. If redness is a number, then it can be compared: things are more or less red. It can even be compared with the redness experienced by others, something we do all the time.
Is assuming that redness is a number a fallacy in the sense that we're attributing characteristics specific to numbers that redness doesn't have? No. Numbers only exist when put in relation with other numbers. Like red only exist when put in relation with other sensation of red.
So redness is indistinguishable from a number. And this is where it gets interesting. Because numbers are not atomic concepts.

Take set theory: numbers can be defined by sets. If you take Neumann ordinals, the first numbers would be written like this:
0 ->
1 -> ()
2 -> (())
3 -> ((), (()))
etc.
In this definition, each number is defined as the set of all previous numbers.

Now let's go back to our example. Redness is a number. It can be defined by a Neumann ordinal. And thus it is composed of all previous numbers.
What did we just proved? We proved that redness can be built from smaller components.
At first it seemed indivisible, atomic, irreducible. But in the end, put in relation to all the existing kind of redness, it wasn't.

[Anonymous No.12113246]

>>12113236
Now I'm going back to what I said about nothingness in my earlier post.
The only thing that really seem indivisible is nothingness. The number 0. The absence of anything.
And this is something I can't explain, and probably never will.
As such, to me, consciousness is not impressive. It's a set of qualias, which are themselves sets of smaller things, and so on, until landing on the disturbing concept of nothingness, which we can't explain. Thus the only intriguing aspect of consciousness is the fact that it is built upon nothingness. But that can be said about every concept that isn't nothingness, and so it doesn't make it special.

[Anonymous No.12113308]

>>12113236

I feel like your line of reasoning is to wrong. You might be able to appreciate the poem

Sloth allows nothing to be accomplished.

Envy wants you to have more then nothing.

Lust leads you crave more then nothing.

Greed leaves nothing for those you care for.

Pride means nothing can be meaningless.

Gluttony allows nothing to be shared.

And wrath leaves nothing in it's quake.

[Anonymous No.12113317]

>>12113308
I would have appreciated a counter argument instead of a poem but okay.

[Anonymous No.12113321]

>>12112358
you don't need to take substances in order to have a psychedelic experience

[Anonymous No.12113325]

>all these fags who think they know what lsd does
lmao

[Anonymous No.12113346]

>>12113236
The poet anon was not me. I can't follow your argument, sorry. I fail to see how redness is like a number in any way whatsoever, and I don't see how it reduces to "nothing". There's something missing in you if you can't see the infinite gap between qualitative phenomena and quantity. I suggest a breakthrough dose of DMT to cure it.

[Anonymous No.12113355]

>>12112358
BRO. I TAKE DRUGS ALL THE TIME. >>>/s4s/9022814
HERES MY THREAD ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR TOPIC!

[Anonymous No.12113362]

>>12112601
Try closing your eyes next time you're tripping

[Anonymous No.12113372]

>>12113362
>>12113355

[Anonymous No.12113401]

>>12113346
A certain sensation of redness doesn't exist by itself, it exist because it can be compared to other sensations of redness: things are redder than others.
So redness can be quantified on a scale. And so can a number.
In fact, nothing distinguishes redness from a number, because the sole definition of redness is how it compares with other rednesses, and the sole definition of a number is how it compares with other numbers. For all intent and purposes, they are the same.

It's the same as if you had 4 apples in front of you or 4 bananas. The core concept here is the number 4, and it can be transposed to designate a quantity of 4 of anything. 4 apples. 4 bananas, 4 faggots, 4 anything.

You can have 4 of redness, on a scale of 0 to 5, to designate the color of an object that is pretty red.

You're stuck because you haven't considered the fact that redness isn't sufficient by itself and that it is has to be put into perspective.
No wonder consciousness is so mysterious to you, you're dealing with objects you can't study, but only assess their existence.

Now compare it with my vision of things:
Everything is divisible into smaller concepts, and the only problematic concept is the one of nothingness.
I have one problematic axiom, nothingness, while you struggle with things like qualias that you see as black boxes you can't do anything with.

Maybe you're familiar with Occam's razor. If you are, you should have no problem to deduce for yourself that my version of things is simpler and thus more powerful.

[Anonymous No.12113406]

>>12113401
>my version of things is simpler and thus more powerful.
Provided, of course, that my version explains the phenomena correctly, which you have yet to disprove.

[Anonymous No.12113437]

>>12113401
You provided a way for numbers to be generated by set theory, which doesn't refer to interrelationships between all numbers, but is just an iterative function. Redness cannot be exhaustively defined, it can only be pointed out and that's the whole issue. You can't point out most numbers, there's no zeroth something for example, not are you likely to find the 7445637th, and formal systems defining number are even more abstract. Even if there was one structural similarity between number o
(or rather magnitude) and qualia due to the latter's varying intensity (although the numbers you might assign to these intensities are arbitrary) there'd still be a vast ontological gap. Your notion of nothingness is similarly confused and if you refuse the direct spiritual medicine and you're interested in these topics I suggest you read some basic philosophy on these matters, not that I think you'll get anywhere on the nothing front except maybe conceding speaking of it in the manner you have been is strictly meaningless.

[Anonymous No.12113505]

>>12113437
>which doesn't refer to interrelationships between all numbers,
>but is just an iterative function.
Well, then they are in a relationship. Iteratively means built upon. Numbers build or are built upon other numbers.
So numbers are in a relationship with other numbers.

>Redness cannot be exhaustively defined, it can only be pointed out and that's the whole issue.
If you can compare that redness to other rednesses, then you can put it on a scale, and thus assign a number to it.
How do you think your computer defines the color red? It assigns a number to it. Same as in the brain: The firing frequency of your neurons assigned to your perception of redness defines the intensity of your perception of the color red. And since this firing neuron frequency is a number, your qualia of redness is a number.

You really need to open your eyes, and you don't need DMT for that: if we so often describe things with numbers, it because that's basically what they are. Mere numbers. And the first thing that isn't a number is a set of numbers.
Ultimately, there's no difference between what you're experiencing and a set of numbers. You're the sum of your qualias. And since each qualia can be quantified by a number, you are a set of numbers.
This might seem like a disappointing truth, but it's a simple and powerful one. A truth that doesn't presuppose impenetrable concepts like you do.

[Anonymous No.12113539]

>>12113505
You're the confused one anon. I'm not sure if I'm being trolled here but your "explanation" falls so far short of the mark I'm forced to conclude there's just something deeply wrong with you and you're perhaps not really "online" with qualia at all, or at least suffering some kind of catastrophic dissociative disconnect between cognition and what it it's like to cognize. It's a sobering thought to consider people like that could exist, but I rather suspect it's just that you've fallen into error and not that you're a cold, empty robot.

[Anonymous No.12113557]

>>12113539
Well, I guess this is end of debate then.

I would advise you to color the picture you posted and then ponder for a while about the usefulness of the relationship between those numbers and those colors you hold in such high esteem.

[Anonymous No.12114224]

>>12112358
Psychadelics are nothing like psychosis, literally.

Schizpohrenia is mostly caused by medication, induction psychosis by malnutrition.

There is strong evidence that not taking psychadelics makes you idiot which tries to encapsulate everything that doesn't conform to universal truth of him in psychiatric hospital.

[Anonymous No.12114229]

>>12112358
If the aspect of your friend having "meta-analysis" which is what's commonly done on psychadelics about your long term memories, means that they are schizo, you should probably change perspective your world perceive in.

[Anonymous No.12114790]

>>12112358

https://merryjane.com/news/doctor-calls-for-temporary-approval-of-psychedelics-to-treat-covid-19-trauma