/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.12032102]

So Von Neumann's 'no hidden variables' proof showed that hidden variables were impossible.

This proof was wrong. Bohm showed that hidden variables are in fact possible, as long as they non-local.

Bell provided evidence for this fact, showing that non-locality exists beyond a reasonable doubt.

My question is this. What was the problem with Von Neumann's "proof"? Was it simply that he assumed locality to be a given?

[Anonymous No.12032201]

>>12032102
>t. my dad's not gone, he's non-local

[Anonymous No.12032326]

No physics students on /sci/ today?

[Anonymous No.12032335]

nani

[Anonymous No.12032354]

>>12032102
>a counter-example to a statement is shown
>statement is still correct somehow
Are you retarded, anon?

[Anonymous No.12032356]

>>12032201
That’s not how the meme works newfag

[Anonymous No.12032372]

>>12032354
It seems that you are the one that's retarded. An argument can be invalid but still have a true conclusion. I would recommend a book in either basic English or high school logic.

[Anonymous No.12032375]

>>12032356
>t. my dad doesn't work

[Anonymous No.12032377]

>>12032102
This directly addresses your question : https://arxiv.org/pdf/1006.0499.pdf

[Anonymous No.12032379]

>>12032377
Could you give a quick description of what the paper says please?

[Anonymous No.12032386]

>>12032379

arXiv:1006.0499v1 [quant-ph] 2 Jun 2010Von Neumann’s ‘No Hidden Variables’ Proof:A Re-Appraisal∗Jeffrey BubPhilosophy Department and Institute for Physical Science and TechnologyUniversity of Maryland, College Park, MD 20742, USAAbstractSince the analysis by John Bell in 1965, the consensus in the literature is thatvon Neumann’s ‘no hidden variables’ proof fails to exclude any significant classof hidden variables. Bell raised the question whether it could be shown that anyhidden variable theory would have to be nonlocal, and in thissense ‘like Bohm’stheory.’ His seminal result provides a positive answer to the question. I arguethat Bell’s analysis misconstrues von Neumann’s argument.What von Neumannproved was the impossibility of recovering the quantum probabilities from a hid-den variable theory of dispersion free (deterministic) states in which the quantumobservables are represented as the ‘beables’ of the theory,to use Bell’s term. Thatis, the quantum probabilities could not reflect the distribution of pre-measurementvalues of beables, but would have to be derived in some other way, e.g., as inBohm’s theory,

[Anonymous No.12032398]

>>12032102
Yes but it's von Neumann, an ugly jew so it's by definition true.

[Anonymous No.12032400]

>>12032375
go back

[Anonymous No.12032416]

>>12032386
>What von Neumannproved was the impossibility of recovering the quantum probabilities from a hid-den variable theory of dispersion free (deterministic) states in which the quantumobservables are represented as the ‘beables’ of the theory

But this isn't what Neumann claimed. Neumann thought he'd ruled out ALL hidden variable types. Do you know what the actual mistaken assumption was in Neumann's proof?

[Anonymous No.12032426]

>>12032102
>What was the problem with Von Neumann's "proof"?
He basically assumed a condition equivalent to the result. It is wrong, and people are aware of this now, but the damage was done.

[Anonymous No.12032438]

>>12032400
too late son, not coming back anymore

[Anonymous No.12032574]

>>12032102
Did he write on his shirt?

[Anonymous No.12032615]

>>12032102
How would you even prove non-local hidden variables are impossible? You'd have to prove there is no metaphysical metastructure on the universe that is deterministic. It seems the most we could say is that non-local hidden variables may exist but that they are genuinely, truly hidden and are impossible to elucidate.

[Anonymous No.12032708]

>>12032615
>How would you even prove non-local hidden variables are impossible?
This isn't possible in principle. The proof of the impossibility of local hidden variables is simple, since we're constrained by the speed of light. But once you introduce non-locality all you have is experimental data to go on, since there are no theoretical constraints.