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/sci/ - Science & Math

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12026383 No.12026383 [Reply] [Original]

In a universe ruled by entropy, that tends to greater and greater disorder, how does order arise?

>> No.12026395

>>12026383
It doesn't. That's why every attempt by humans to establish order ends in failure.

>> No.12026432

>>12026395
but wouldnt you consider a conscious human being that is able to question the nature of his reality an example of order being momentarily created in the universe

>> No.12026446

>>12026395
It's over. Op BTFO.
Time to leave the thread boys.

>> No.12026459

The wisp of smoke from a cigarette forms complex swirls and spirals, but these ordered phenomena function to maximise the dissipation of heat in the overall system. The swirling entropic minima are features of a global entropic maximum. Negentropic phenomena such as life are not in conflict with nature’s tendency to heat-death, but a mechanism of its fulfilment.

>> No.12026487

>>12026383
through work

>> No.12026498

>>12026459
b-based but i dont get it

>> No.12026502

>>12026498
google dissipation-driven adaptation

>> No.12026552

>>12026502
Meme from 2014. Barely anybody talks about it anymore.

>> No.12026553

>>12026502
>dissipation-driven adaptation
thanks, how did you learn about that

>> No.12026574

Spontaneously

>> No.12026582

>>12026395
you didn't understand the question
of course everything will end in disorder
that's not what was asked

>> No.12026633

>>12026552
>Barely anybody talks about it anymore.
so?

>> No.12026752

>>12026395
What? We literally got a civilization running because we managed to put everything in our capacity in order.
Therefore I would say that order arises from life. Even animals make nests or lairs.

>> No.12026995
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12026995

>> No.12027002

>>12026383
God

>> No.12027021

> In a universe ruled by entropy

Are we so sure about that? What about self-winding/self-organizing systems and the sciences of complexity? There are subtler aspect of the material realm, that under certain circumstances, propel themselves into states of higher order, higher complexity, and higher organization. Under certain circumstances matter will “wind itself up” into states of higher order. Whenever material processes become very chaotic and “far from equilibrium,” they tend under their own power to escape chaos by transforming it into a higher and more structured order—commonly called “order out of chaos.”

In these material systems the arrow of time is pointed in the other direction, namely, to higher order and higher structural organization. See General System Theory (Bertalanffy, Weiss), cybernetics (Wiener), nonequilibrium thermodynamics (Prigogine), cellular automata theory (von Neumann), catastrophe theory (Thom), autopoietic system theory (Maturana and Varela), dynamic systems theory (Shaw, Abraham), and chaos theories, among others.

>> No.12027031

Does Friston's free energy principle have anything to do with any of this. I don't understand his theory but just wondering if it's related

>> No.12027038

>>12027031
no

>> No.12027068
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12027068

>>12026383
Easy. You create order in one part of a system at the sacrifice of a greater amount of disorder created in another part of the system.

>> No.12027089

>>12027038
Are you sure? From some more Googling, it appears there are a lot of references to equivalences between minimizing free energy and minimizing or bounding relative entropy.

See: https://www.mdpi.com/1099-4300/14/11/2100/htm

I still don't fully understand the theory, but I do feel like there may be some relation here.

>> No.12027094

>>12027038
>>12027089
And also that this is not limited to biological systems, even though that's what this particular paper concerns.

>> No.12027364

>>12026383
Infinite perfection is the prime, undisturbed state. Think of entropy as a distortion field.

>> No.12027389

>>12026383
how does OP explain crystals?

>> No.12028184

>>12027389
goddidit

>> No.12028214

Well did you ever have thermodynamics?


Entrophy can be "reduced" in a small local area as long as the whole system still gains Entrophy. http://www.eoht.info/page/entropy+reduction

So to say, you could explain the order of complex life by saying that there is a big accumulation of energy present (aka the sun) which leads to local order without disturbing the whole system (think big aka Galaxy or bigger).

If you look at it this way the whole meaning to life becomes a quest on distributing energy. Walking around, distributing your body heat is an encrease in entrophy in the large scale. Plants take up localized energy from the sun which you intake one way or the other which gets used by your body to produce ATP for energy consumption but also heat.

Heat is a universal waste dump of energy in every form of work we know, there is always some form of heat disipation that is basically lost for us, in the end leading to us distributing the suns energy into space in form of heat.

>> No.12028263

>>12026383
>how does order order arise
Destroying the old order is a race to the finish line, because the ones who take credit for it completely control the narrative I'm an unironically natural way, like yeesus. Joseph and Mary were from noble families, and created an offspring that was born with a powerful perception that still teaches a message to this day. Virgin my ass.

>> No.12028271

>>12026383
Remnants of the primal order and/or its possible agents.

>> No.12028290

>>12026383
>how does order arise?
At the end. From the destruction of the entropic universe.

>> No.12028295

>>12026487
this
universe pulls itself up by its bootstraps and give entropy a firm handshake