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/sci/ - Science & Math

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1196660 No.1196660 [Reply] [Original]

Does /sci/ believe Eugenics would actually work or does it still come down to nature vs nurture?

>> No.1196670

Why are they mutually exclusive? Of course we can GATTACA shit up and even genetically engineer our offspring.

>> No.1196673

we already practice eugenics. Whenever someone chooses a mate they are practicing eugenics because that choice is based on inheritable traits (and other things)

>> No.1196675

What type of Eugenics are you talking about exactly? The type where you abort all the Down Syndrome fetuses or the type where you send all the Jews on vacation to Poland?

>> No.1196678

I like how that picture makes all these assumptions about something that we have very little experience with.

>> No.1196679

of course it would fucking work, do you believe in evolution or not?

>> No.1196683

>>1196675
SLIPPERY
FREAKING
SLOPE

>> No.1196689

pretty soon we treat other humans no better than cows.. yummy yummy humans

>> No.1196697

>>1196683
I don't think that means what you think that it means.

>> No.1196699

>>1196675

First one, but maybe to the more extreme as Galton was suggesting, trying to find common physical attibutes in criminals and weeding them out.

>>1196670
They arent but easier to discuss if we assume they are.

>> No.1196720
File: 34 KB, 500x348, Black-Males-in-Prison2.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1196720

>>1196699trying to find common physical attibutes in criminals and weeding them out.

ooo ooo I know this one!

>> No.1196722

>>1196679

That was the whole point of eugenics. The fact that we are not evolving based on the theory of natural selection. The weak dont die off we support them so the gap between the weak and the strong is ever increasing.

>> No.1196728

>>1196673
what a bunch of evil fucks.. god damn christian eugenicists, breeding with cows to make more fat ass soccer moms

>> No.1196744

>>1196660
Anyone who tries to manipulate our population through eugenics is only working on their own demise in the long run.

Although, don't you worry, we are just a major climactic change from extinction--the fact is, variation in species is one of the keys for survival of that species.

There are creeps, idiots and monsters in every human group so really it's a matter of anyone's perspective of who should live or die therefore it behooves us to just mind our own damn faults and stop trying to pick out the ones we think we can do without.

>> No.1196763

>>1196660
Anyone who doesn't believe in Eugenics is a fucking retard.

It's evident that there are two people. Those who help the gene pool and those who don't.

I would never let a retard breed or anything close. I would like to advance as a society much faster than we are now.

Think of how far we could be if the inferior didn't breed.

>> No.1196767

>>1196744
Thanks to technology even humans not adapted to a climate can survive there. Also there are some groups that are statistically much more likely to be useless, such as Africans and Arabs.

>> No.1196773

>>1196763Think of how far we could be if the inferior didn't breed.

We'd be Finland.

>> No.1196774

>>1196744
Truth but none of this global warming bullshit

>> No.1196781

>>1196773
I think you're getting finland confused with Sweden/Norway... I'll take anything in Scandinavia though.

>> No.1196783

It's all a matter of execution.

If I were to actually implement something like this, I'd do it through incentives. Open up a program free for anyone to join. Those that join go through a comprehensive evaluation that measures intelligence, natural athletic ability, attractiveness, risk of genetic diseases, etc. Average out and weight the scores to taste. Those in the top 50% get incentives for having children while those in the bottom half get incentives for having one or no children at all. Further you are towards the end of a scale, the bigger the incentive.

And by incentive, I mostly mean cash. It'd be a slow process that'd require a lot of money, but it'd definitely get results.

>> No.1196792

>>1196763

I kinda of agree but then i think, well what if the bar was raised higher, above working class, the higher above that, then again, and then i was just on the outside of the "worthless gene pool", then would i agree with it?, im not sure.

>> No.1196800

>>1196783

Alright, all of that sounds great, but why do you guys place emphasis on a valueless trait like attraction? This is all subjective unlike the other things, so why is this important to eugenics?

>> No.1196805

>>1196783
In theory intelligent, capable people will generally be in a position where a little more money isn't going to cause them to have more kids. It'd be easier, cheaper, and equally effective to just implement mandatory surgical sterilization to all woman after their 4th child.

>> No.1196815

my program to help the poor raise children better and allow the rich (and intelligent) to reproduce:
give every single person 1 "baby credit". That means a couple can have two babies. zero population growth. You can divide up the credit any way you want. This means a couple can each use half a credit to have a baby. This way, the poor can sell their leftover credit (probably for quite a bit) to the rich. That way, they can raise their kid better while the rich have more of a chance to reproduce.

>> No.1196816

>>1196800
Because how else are we going to breed a race of hardy intelligent viking warriors and tall blonde cow-titted Valkyrie women?

>> No.1196819

>>1196783

Also it has been shown that generally the more intellegent and better off a country is the less kids they have. Meaning most intellegent people dont want to just breed and breed and breed.

>> No.1196836

>>1196815
I rather like that idea with only two problems:
1) The idea that rich people should be allowed to have more children is going to be strongly resisted by a lot of religious dumbasses
2) 2 children isn't 0 population growth, it's negative population growth. You need approx 2.33 children per woman for zero population growth to make up for the people that either die young or never have children.

>> No.1196840

>>1196816

Who gives a fuck about their attractiveness or height or hair color? There needs to be a focus on physical and mental toughness and endurance. Everything else is useless. Intelligence helps us advance as does being able to be healthy enough to survive multiple harsh things like disease and climate change. We don't need a race of big titted bimbos around.

>> No.1196847

>>1196792
>>1196792
I'm sure they would make a test that was fair encompassing math, science, history, languages..

those who didn't pass could live but would have to be sterilized.

>> No.1196851

>>1196819aning most intellegent people dont want to just breed and breed and breed.

No, intelligent people don't want to spend all our time raising children or being pregnant. We rather like the rest of the breeding part though. Now if you could implant the children of intelligent parents and stick them in stupid women, then have them raised in boarding schools...

>> No.1196858

>>1196836
we can iron that out, but we need negative growth for a while anyway. Perhaps after we drop below, say, 3B population we can make it so if the kid dies you get however many credits the kid had when he died?

>> No.1196863

>>1196836
also, religious organizations will probably have to be forcibly shut down. It's for the best.

>> No.1196869

>>1196847those who didn't pass could live but would have to be sterilized.

It's work better to make everyone sterile and only reverse it if you passed the test. That way you could take it each time you wanted a kid.

The best way to implement would be to give all males RISUG at age 12 and every 10 years thereafter, and give them the reversal if both the male and his mate passed the test. Wouldn't take long for women to be naturally attracted to men who weren't retarded in order to find fertile mates.

>> No.1196874

>>1196836

Fuck rich people. You can be poor and still have intelligent kids. And rich people aren't necessarily smarter. Now, replace rich with intelligent and I support this 100%.

>> No.1196884

>>1196858
The problem with negative population growth is you end up with a significant portion of your population over retirement age. This is absolutely devastating to the economy. Only way around it would be to extend retirement age beyond safe limits or just kill people when they are a certain age.

>>1196863
I'm ok with this.

>> No.1196895

>>1196874
well, money is kind of the only reliable indicator of intelligence. It would be hard to give every single person "intelligence points"

>> No.1196897

>>1196874
How do you propose adjusting it for intelligence? Tests that determine the number of children you're allowed to have?

>> No.1196899
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1196899

Some things are inevitable. DNA technology is quickly looking like the computer tech boom. The price has gone down considerably, and it's not terribly difficult to make GM organisms if you have the money and resources.

What are we going to do when we find out a human born in the US is GM? Ban him? I don't think so. We'll treat him as equal, like he should be.

And that will open the floodgates.

>> No.1196906

>>1196895

How about by using IQ and testing people in various ways? Also, wealth/richness can be inherited. It's not a reliable indicator of intelligence at all.

>> No.1196908

>>1196816
>>1196816
>>1196816
>>1196816
Scandinavians have been proven to be the most athletic/intellectual/desirable people on the planet

>> No.1196918

>>1196884
I guess we would just have to borrow heavily against the future. Bad plan, I know, but it might be the only way. It wouldn't actually be too severe, considering that we're only about 14% below neutral growth.

>> No.1196923

>>1196908
Yes we all know that. We should harvest eggs from Scandinavian women and implant them in women all over the world.

>> No.1196934

>>1196918I guess we would just have to borrow heavily against the future.

From whom? The entire world's production per person would fall. That is not something you can fix with economic tricks, all you'd get is inflation.

>> No.1196935

>>1196906
the main point is that the poor get that money to raise their kids a lot better, so everyone benefits. Maybe the rich can have more kids, but they cap them based on their intelligence?

>> No.1196936

>>1196660
Fucking ethics always holding back science with the "U um Play Gods" bullshit

>> No.1196942

>>1196884

The very old are quite useless atm. Maybe say retire when you want, then a fixed limit of life after you retire, say... 10 years. This gives people an incentive to work longer past general retirement ages and the load on the economy can be accuratly estimated, plus still giving them a decent amount of time to live.

>> No.1196944

>>1196935

Give incentives to people based on how intelligent their kids are. Fuck giving those rich people more money.

>> No.1196945
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1196945

>>1196840
>>1196840
>>1196840
>>1196840
>My face when you don't realize height/attractiveness/hair color is what is going to make the people want to breed like crazy..

+height is necessary for athleticism.

>> No.1196946

>>1196935
I still say it'd be easier to just cap everyone at 3-4 kids. Few intelligent people have more than that, and many stupid people would like to. This alone would be a large way to the solution.

>> No.1196948

>>1196934
I suppose so... shit. maybe a really slow population drop? We already have less money going in to the SS program than being spent. So it's happening now.

>> No.1196949

>>1196936
Think we will let you asspies play with god powers unsupervised? Just think of us as the mother who wasn't embarrassed that you were her son.

>> No.1196956

>>1196945
And athleticism is necessary for nothing.

>> No.1196964

>>1196942
Or you could have people save for their own retirement instead of pay for it through government programs. Then have company retirement programs only pay out for 10 years after retirement.

>> No.1196968

>>1196944
what? They don't get more money, they lose money and give it to the poor! The poor spend it on their kids!
>>1196946
then everyone would still have 4 kids... bad idea.
>>1196949
oh go die

>> No.1196970

>>1196945

Who cares if they want to breed like crazy? Quality>quantity, moron. As long as the kids are coming out intelligent I don't give a fuck how you vain faggots look.

>> No.1196972

>>1196942

Stupid idea. Assuming we do create some sort of master race, it'd be a pretty shitty one if the society wasn't able to support those in their golden years.

>> No.1196973

>>1196956
>>1196956
athleticism is necessary for when the climate changes to a drastic point and people need to actually do shit...

+ great slave labor in the meantime

>> No.1196976

>>1196949Think we will let you asspies play with god powers unsupervised?

>god
>asspie

You may be on to something...

>> No.1196983

>>1196936

I never said that...

>> No.1196990

>>1196968

What? It gives people incentive to raise smarter kids and doesn't give rich faggots more unwarranted money for no reason other than being rich.

>> No.1196991

>>1196968then everyone would still have 4 kids... bad idea.

Everyone doesn't have 4+ kids now.

>>1196973athleticism is necessary for when the climate changes to a drastic point and people need to actually do shit...

I think I found someone that should be sterilized for eugenics!

>> No.1196992

>>1196660
Eugenics can work we do it with our pets and livestock all the time. It's just a question of ethics when we bring people into the picture.

>> No.1196996

>>1196970
>>1196970
>>1196970
>>1196970
Not when you're looking at a severely negative growth rate faggot

>> No.1197002
File: 67 KB, 300x321, 1269807535844.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
1197002

>>1196991
>>1196991
So you don't believe in another ice age?
lol
>my face

>> No.1197003

>>1196991
that's the whole fucking problem! the stupid people have as many kids as they can, while the smart ones barely breed!

>> No.1197008

>>1196996

Then you can artificially breed them if they refuse to fuck so much. And people will always breed at a good enough level to sustain the species.

>> No.1197019

>>1197008
we can just get thousands of smart sperm and thousands of smart eggs pretty easily...

>> No.1197033

>>1197019

You just implant them in people and have them raised by smart people. Trust me, people will find a way and a reason to fuck each other, bro. I know you Aspies may see it as gross, but trust me, they'll fuck enough and if not then you put them into homes of people who do want to raise them. Win-Win.

>> No.1197037

of course people will fuck enough... the trick is getting only the smart ones to fuck.

>> No.1197042

but you need athleticism/regular people to work

>> No.1197052

>>1197037
Force them to fuck.

>> No.1197054

>>1197002
>implying that athletics won't be completely eclipsed by the influences of technology when that happens

>>1197003
Stupid people aren't all having as many kids as they can in the first world. They just aren't smart enough to use birth control or don't have access to it. Load them up with RISUG and problem solved. The only stupid people that want to spit out babies are religious people and gassing them to death causes in me no qualms.

>> No.1197055

you need athleticism/regular people to work

>> No.1197056

>>1197042
maybe we could have some kind of aldous huxley-esque caste system.

>> No.1197060

>>1197042

Hence you dont raise the bar to high. Just the bottom 20% or so would significantly help.

>> No.1197062

I think nuture accounts for at least 90% of who you are. I'm not going to bother reading the thread, but I have a feeling most of /sci/ will disagree with me be it gives them an excuse for their defects. Yes some people are naturally gifted in certain things, but by and large things like effort and willpower, all mental things you can control, determine how far you can get somewhere.

>> No.1197067

>>1197054
religion appears to be the problem here.

>> No.1197069

>>1197037
No, everybody wants to fuck. The trick is separating sex from reproduction with effective reversible sterility.

>> No.1197080

>>1197056 huxley-esque caste system.

Oh this will end well...

>> No.1197092

>>1197080
that would actually work really well in real life.

>> No.1197093

>>1197062

This is what the thread was originally about but it swayed into methods.

Still isnt effort and willpower part of your genetics aswell?

>> No.1197124

>>1197092
Until the females from the intellectual cast all decide to fuck the males from the "lift heavy shit" cast.

>> No.1197126

>>1197093
yeah, lol, it always comes back to genetics.

>> No.1197128

>>1197093
I don't know. Is telling yourself to get off your ass a genetic thing?

>> No.1197133

>>1197124
you have to train them to dislike lower caste levels. Havent you read brave new world?

>> No.1197143

>>1197133
No. Dammit my reading list is already backed up. Will have to add it.

>> No.1197149

>>1197128

Yes, laziness is genetic.

>> No.1197171

>>1197149
You're an idiot/lazy person. Quit making excuses.

>> No.1197173

>>1197143
I keep lists of movie, books, songs, tasks etc. on my computer that are literally dozens long LOL

>> No.1197182

>>1197171

No im not. Im not lazy, im saying the people that are fat slobs that dont do shit with their lives are due to their shitty genetics.

>> No.1197589

ITT: Fascist morons who can't get laid without thinning the competition.

Seriously. If you're in favor of eugenics, you go to the head of the line.

>> No.1197597

>>1197589

Now thats a bit counter productive don't you think?

>> No.1197636

>>1196660

I believe eugenics could make better hardware.
The human software is up to the families and shit.

>> No.1197658
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1197658

>>1197589

>> No.1197661

>>1197636

Nice analogy.

>> No.1197670
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1197670

It does work. Intelligence is roughly 60% inheritable. If we bred humans like animals, we could produce superior ones of any colors we liked.

>> No.1197672

>>1197636
Could also help with the firmware. Not to mention memes are frequently inherited as well as genes. Eugenics could be used to keep Muslims from breeding out of control.

>> No.1197686
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1197686

>>1196660

enjoy your aids meatbags.

>> No.1197712

Some form of population control is going to happen sooner or later. Might as well give it a direction too.

>> No.1197750

I believe in natural selection.

>> No.1197758

>>1197750

Natural selection doesnt exist for humans anymore. The weak are supported by society.

>> No.1197768

What if we're intelligent, but have a history of heart disease?

>> No.1197781

>>1197768

Keep, we dont wanna be eliminating everyone that only has 1 bad trait but as lots of good.

>> No.1197795

Wait, what about genetic engineering? What if we can just engineer people with the most positive traits and the least negative ones possible?

We'd still have population issues, but the increased intelligence across the board would almost guarantee a speedy solution.

>> No.1197796

>>1197758Natural selection doesnt exist for humans anymore. The weak are supported by society.

NATURAL SELECTION DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY. It's not the strongest that survive, it's the individuals that have the most viable offspring. Evolution hasn't stopped, it's just going in a direction that we don't really want.

>> No.1197814

>>1197796
So evolution will make stupider people?
Great.

>> No.1197933

Fuck eugenics, just manufacture superior humans.

>> No.1198176

eugenics is essentiall selecting certain genes in the gene pool,

what gets complicated is when you want a specific trait that is expressed by multiple genes or the gene you want expresses other traits you may not want

and then there is hitler and the jews, which is also eugenics, but also a bit different, hitler wasn't really selecting for a specific trait, he was picking people whose father was jewish, which means there was no actual genes he was selecting for (otherwise he would be considering mothers heritage as well)

in short, what i am saying is there is alot of bad stigma attached to eugenics and in some cases eugenics works, this can be in the case of getting rid of extremely harmful genes from the gene pool

but in other cases you can lose alot of variation of the overall species ( this can harm the species if the environment changes or something new is introduced into the environment )

>>1196675

while aborting down syndrome babies can happen, wha normally tends to happen is they give people genetic counciling.. this is where they work out who has what genes and tell the parents if they have a child together there is a strong risk they might have a baby with "insert thingy here" and help them decide if they want to have kids or not

what you are implying is the actual stigmas of eugenics which aren't actually eugenics (in the case of the nazi's) eugenics being used as an excuse to wipe out a race which isn't actually eugenics it is more he wanted an excuse and hitler didnt understand anything about genetics, and downsyndrome isn't selecting for any genetic trait, it is selecting against age of the parents (older parents are more likely to have children with down's syndrome) and someone with trisomy 21, which isn't from specific genes but from having 3 chromosome 21 with non specific genes on those chromosomes

>> No.1198189

alot of people seem to understand nothing about eugenics

aka kill all jews and down syndrome guy

find the traits that make chriminals guy is on the spot with eugenics, although there isn't really a specific trait that specificly will define someone as a criminal, it is more to do with behaviour and development then genes (all genes can do is give you a predisposition towards certain behaviour that makes someone more likely to preform criminal acts) (or a mutation that gives someone a scar that means they get bullied at highschool so they turn into an evil genius)

>> No.1198226

Evolution disproves eugenics: it's better to have a varied gene pool than a restricted one.

>> No.1198228

Why do we need "superhumans"?
What for?
Of course anti-social nerds on 4chan like to dream about the "superhuman" because that way they can avenge themselves against the actual humans that have shunned them.
Bitterness.

>> No.1198229

>>1198189
>implying evil geniuses are not beneficial to society, like for... performing eugenics' research

>> No.1198232

>>1198228
also:

since when the fuck uberman was a fat introverted virgin with acne that got bullied at school?

I do not get the reasoning....

>> No.1198240

>>1198232
I never said he was, just that it's those people who feel inferior that aspire so strongly for an über-race.

>> No.1198245

it is proven that it doesn't work
look at germany.. or any other country that has closed it borders for imigrants long enough
they just need the new genetic material

>> No.1198296

we could breed a civilisation made up of 99 percent mindless zombie slaves and the rest could be the richest people in the world who control everyone else, oh wait we are almost there

>> No.1198310

Well this is hilarious.
Google "First use of Eugenics"

>> No.1198315
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1198315

It won't work.

Further, "eugenics" has been discredited in the scientific community and the public consciousness for various reasons, not the least of which ethical, and if you are serious about trying to advance it in any real kind of a way, think up a new name for it.

Oh wait. Somebody already did. "Transhumanism." Good thing they took care of those ethical problems, too.

Lol, just kidding. They haven't tackled any of the real ethical issues either.

>> No.1198370

you can't spell eugenics without uni genes the uni stands for underwater night in

oo yeah

>> No.1198382

If you don't believe in eugenics, you're the same kind of faggot that thinks "theory" means "guess" and evolution is false.
Fuck. Off.

>> No.1198392

>>1198382
lulz except there's a rich history of eugenics being used for incredibly racist goals

>> No.1198400

>>1198392
The purpose doesn't matter, the fact is, it's just guided evolution. It's like breeding dogs/birds/any animal for desired traits. Personally, I'd like to see a country adopt a eugenics program based heavily on intelligence - regardless of race.

>> No.1198492
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1198492

Eugenic programs never work. They're an excuse to off people you don't like because of their faith/ideology/shape of their nose. Evaluating based on genetics won't work either for the same reason: bullshit rationalization of mass murder and/or sterilization. You'll end with frauds funded by politics with an agenda, which will claim they've discovered i.e. a "rapist" gene in the population and all immigrants are affected.

Anyone who supports eugenics should be the first in line for "evaluation". I propose that subjects supporting eugenics, should be immediately recognized as eligible for sterilization and branding.

>> No.1198494

>>1198400
Intelligent people don't make for good workers or soldiers. They tend to be too disobedient or depressed.
We don't need a society of geniuses for fuck sake.

>> No.1198567

the problem with eugenics is that politics get involved. it gets turned into an us vs them situation. plus, as far as i'm concerned, i will procreate with whoever the fuck i want to, the government be damned.