/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.11946245]

>Floyd was pronounced dead at 9:25 at the Hennepin County Medical Center emergency room.
>Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher, then loaded into an ambulance which departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.
>Symptoms of a fentanyl overdose include foaming at the mouth and slowed or stopped breathing.
>First arresting officer on scene saw "foam" around mouth, asked if "on anything".
Scientifically speaking, how do you die of asphyxiation an hour after you were allegedly asphyxiated? Serious question, I just want to get to the bottom of this.

[Anonymous No.11946277]

>>11946245
The official time of death is recorded as such when a medical practitioner (or a paramedic or nurse lol) officially certifies them dead. It's kinda stupid but you could have a person who clearly looks dead who is technically not 'dead' until a doctor says so. So the discrepancy in timing here isn't really an issue. Obviously, they'd have wanted a doctor to check the death too, rather than pronounce him dead on the scene, because he died whilst being arrested = not exactly natural.

THAT BEING SAID, I do find it interesting you mention the foam. Source for this?

[Anonymous No.11946387]

>>11946277
>The official time of death is recorded as such when a medical practitioner (or a paramedic or nurse lol) officially certifies them dead
Okay did not know that. Could explain it then, although when carried into the ambulance he still had a pulse. Maybe the neck pressure created a lingering effect on his respiratory system?
>Source for this?
https://m.startribune.com/read-the-transcript-of-j-alexander-kueng-s-body-camera-footage-during-george-floydc-call/571679041/
Page 12 of 57
>What are, are you on something right now?
>Because you acting real erratic
>You got foam around your mouth, too?
Also, on his supposed "erratic" behavior:
>Neither examiner mentioned excited delirium, a condition which concerned Lane and that he discussed with Chauvin while he had Floyd pinned down.
On EXD:
>It may include attempts at violence, unexpected strength, and very high body temperature.
>People with excited delirium commonly have acute drug intoxication, generally involving PCP, methylenedioxypyrovalerone (MDPV), cocaine, or methamphetamine.
On meth in George:
>Other significant conditions were arteriosclerotic heart disease, hypertensive heart disease, fentanyl intoxication, and recent methamphetamine use.

[Anonymous No.11946393]

>>11946245
>>>/pol/
putting the word "scientifically" into your post doesn't automatically make your shit thread about science. anyone who responds to this thread is actively making this board worse

[Anonymous No.11946402]

>>11946393
>muh /pol/
Read the posts schizo, we were discussing scienctific and medical explanations before you showed up.

[Anonymous No.11946425]

>>11946387
what neck pressure? on the video he literally lifts his head off the pavement 2 or 3 times.

[Anonymous No.11946428]

They called for EMS before he was restrained, and Floyd said he couldn't breath before they attempted to detain him, he probably ate a stash of Fentanyl/Fentanyl laced Chinese opioids when the cops arrived so he wouldn't get charged for illegal possession and died of an OD
The cops should be prosecuted for failure of administer Narcan, which is a failure of their duty to protect and serve, plus horrible optics regarding the restraint

[Anonymous No.11946437]

>>11946425
I mean, necks have a lot of freedom of movement, but the lungs and throat (which were on the ground) have less so. I can't explain it which is why I'm asking.

[Anonymous No.11946442]

>>11946387
I'm >>11946277
Do you have a source for the pulse when he was being lifted into the ambulance?

Either way, there's no such thing as neck pressure causing a lingering pulse. He either had a pulse or he didn't, OR whoever measured it did a shit job and felt one that wasn't there/didn't feel one that was.

I've had a quick skim through the whole document you linked. Very interesting how the officers immediately recognise his erratic behavior and question whether he's on something. Obviously this was majorly omitted out by the (((media))).

It's definitely not unlikely that drugs would've had an impact on his death. I'm not familiar with excited delirium but either way I wouldn't be surprised if a drugged up individual died during what must've been a stressful situation.

Really gets the noggin joggin

[Anonymous No.11946446]

>>11946428
>Narcan
Do cops carry this at all times? They should, as they likely deal with a lot of drug abusers. I don't think "bad optics" are a criminal offense. Would Narcan have saved his life do you think?

[Anonymous No.11946449]

>>11946428
>N-N-NO ANON HE DIED BECAUSE OF SYSTEMATIC OPPRESSION AND HE NEBER WOULD'VE GOTTEN IN THIS SITUATION IF HE'D NOT BEEN GIVEN DEM RACIST REMARKS

[Anonymous No.11946453]

>>11946428
>plus horrible optics regarding the restraint
in their defence proir to the main video he had been violently resisting, visible in the other recordings.
coincidentally on that same day a fattish white guy died with his face shoved into the dirt and a knee on his back, I forget the details but this was a real abuse issue yet nothing came of it at all, cops are joking around for a couple of minutes saying he must be sleeping as he so quiet.

[Anonymous No.11946456]

>>11946453
*I remember some bodycam footage of it.

[Anonymous No.11946466]

>>11946245
Fuck off /pol/. Back to your containment board

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/voices/george-floyds-autopsy-and-the-structural-gaslighting-of-america/

[Anonymous No.11946473]

Chauvin's actions actually helped Floyd live a few minutes longer. If Chauvin got up at the first "I can't breathe" Floyd would have immediately ran his Fentanyl-addled self to the top of a building and jumped. Floyd was going to die at any second, and the cops did the only thing they could to save him from himself. They knew that the cries for his life were just a Fentanyl-driven delusion. When a legend of a cop. Floyd is thanking them from heaven I'm sure of it.

[Anonymous No.11946482]

>>11946466
>2 conflicting autopsies
>Video evidence of a struggle
>Larynx nowhere near the ground
>"I can't breathe" but can shout
>On an ANAESTHETIC DOSE of Fentanyl; a drug that causes respiratory depression and cardiopulmonary arrest

[Anonymous No.11946484]

>>11946482
the autopsy by that TV "doctor" should be completely discounted

[Anonymous No.11946488]

>>11946466
That article completely ignores the Fentanyl in his system lmao, and references the families autopsy report, which didn't examine the body, and based their report on the video alone
Floyd didn't have a heart attack, only brain let's thought that, but he was on a massive dose of Fentanyl

[Anonymous No.11946493]

>>11946488
Brainlets*

[Anonymous No.11946495]

>>11946442
>Do you have a source for the pulse when he was being lifted into the ambulance?
Huh, i heard it somewhere, but all I can find rn is this video (@7:17) where they say EMTs checked his pulse, then brought him to an ambulance.
Although, about 10 minutes after he was transferred to the ambulance:
>the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest
Is it possible to enter cardiac arrest without having a pulse beforehand? I've only heard of cardiac arrest, I don't really know how it happens.
>>11946466
>/sci/ anons having an actual reasonable discussion of a major medical event where discrepancies seem to exist
>said discrepancies may have led to wrongful convictions
>GO BACK TO /pol/ REE
If you don't want to partake in the actual discussion then just ignore this thread.

[Anonymous No.11946499]

It’s like that time /pol/ claimed that girl in charlottesville wasn’t killed by a /pol/ack but died of a heart attack.

Waste of time.

[Anonymous No.11946504]

>>11946482
No. Seriously fuck off /pol/.
https://www.yourcentralvalley.com/news/u-s-world/medical-experts-floyds-speech-didnt-mean-he-could-breathe/

[Anonymous No.11946507]

>>11946504
Can you explain why he was having breathing issues before he was even on the ground?

[Anonymous No.11946509]

>>11946499
She died of an aortic rupture from being knocked over by either the car/people being launched into her from said car
She most likely would have survived if she wasn't obese though

[Anonymous No.11946512]

>>11946499
>>11946504
>deflecting from actual discussion of science and medicine
>GTFO our science board, /pol/ack!
Nothing is stopping you from not posting in this thread. Stop trying to derail.

[Anonymous No.11946515]

>>11946507
Do you have a source on his breathing troubles before being detained?

[Anonymous No.11946516]

>>11946507
>>11946512
Shut the fuck up racist

[Anonymous No.11946520]

The actual autopsy and timeline of events seem to indicate a drug overdose. How can anyone trust that second one that didn't even examine the body?

[Anonymous No.11946521]

11946516
Not worth the (You)
>>11946488
>families autopsy report
Link? I haven't looked at that. What notable discrepancies are there compared to the official?

[Anonymous No.11946522]

>>11946512
>discussion of science and medicine by discounting scientists and medical experts to push a narrative that George Floyd didn't die of asphyxiation by cop
Seriously, fuck off. You aren't here for a serious debate, you're here to push your conspiracy narrative.

[Anonymous No.11946528]

>>11946522
I'm not "pushing" any narrative. I'm just questioning the current. Or is the science "settled"? Since when is an official autopsy and toxicology a "conspiracy"? I've never even denied the officer's involvement may have contributed to his death.
Yet while many anons here are posting official transcripts and reports, you who call us "conspiracy theories" cite blogposts and narratives. Is this science in 2020?

[Anonymous No.11946540]

Toxicology

[Anonymous No.11946549]

It was either drugs or organ failure from the struggle. No, a cop didn't try to deliberately choke him to death on camera in the middle of the day in the middle of the street while collecting his paltry $45k check for the trouble.

[Anonymous No.11946552]

>>11946528
You say George Floyd would have died right then and there if the cops never came. That's quite a coincidence. Or, you are saying it's okay to murder medically vulnerable people. Either it's a conspiracy theory, or some fringe political nonsense. Neither belong here.

[Anonymous No.11946558]

>>11946484
On the grounds of?

[Anonymous No.11946565]

>>11946552
Nobody said it's ok for cops to murder people, what's being disputed is if a murder even took place. The actual evidence casts doubt on whether chauvin's actions actually lead to Floyd's death or if he was going to die anyway from other factors.

[Anonymous No.11946569]

>>11946558
How can you do a legit autopsy without access to the body?

[Anonymous No.11946581]

>official autopsy reports drug overdose
>no no that's not right, we're going to go find a celebrity doctor that will tell us what we want to hear
>he tells them what they want to hear

[Anonymous No.11946595]

>>11946565
I'll even grant you that he was a ticking timebomb (I don't actually think so). You don't think Chauvin's actions exacerbated what was already happening to Floyd? Why is that an appropriate response to a dying man? He shouldn't have done what he did. But since he did it (even after warnings from the rookie officer), he bears responsibility in Floyd's death. It's simple as that.

[Anonymous No.11946600]

>>11946595
If he just felt like murdering Floyd why would he call an ambulance before he even had him on the ground?

[Anonymous No.11946601]

>>11946549
>deliberately choke him to death
I don't think even blm is arguing this. IMO the second degree charge should be dropped. Maybe even the manslaughter. However the failure of the officers to deliver life saving medication like >>11946428 said could be seen as criminal negligence.
But that's not what we are discussing; we are discussing the "how" of his death, trying to be as scientific as possible with the sources we can gather.
From what we have so far:
>officers noticed he was behaving erratically and foam was at his mouth
>common signs of drug od
>yet they failed to deliver any emergency medication
>instead they kept him detained until he was unconscious
>medics arrived to take him to the hospital
>on the way there he entered cardiac arrest
>he was declared dead at the very latest an hour after he got in the ambulance, at the very earliest 15 minutes after he got in.
>he had lethal amount of drugs in his system
>yet he was known to use drugs, so a tolerance may have been built to withstand said lethal amount
>coroner report said asphyxiation was not COD
>some contend it may have contributed though to the shortness of breath large amounts of fentanyl can cause
>>11946552
>You say George Floyd would have died right then and there if the cops never came.
Never said that. You must mistake me for another poster.
>you are saying it's okay to murder medically vulnerable people
Again, never said or even suggested that.

[Anonymous No.11946604]

>>11946600
1) He wasn't out to murder, he just didn't give a fuck if Floyd died.
2) Plausible deniability.

[Anonymous No.11946605]

What happened to the accusation that Chauvin knew Floyd? That seems to have gone no where. Not a very scientific question, I know, but not being American I am not up to date.

[Anonymous No.11946609]

>>11946601

No they really, really do believe it was deliberate, and should be met with a homicide charge. No need to project your own nuanced judgement on these raving people.

[Anonymous No.11946611]

>>11946604
>he just didn't give a fuck if Floyd died.
How do you know what he was thinking? Are you willing to put a man behind bars because of what you think he was thinking?

[Anonymous No.11946613]

[Anonymous No.11946622]

>>11946604
1. Why would he call an ambulance if he didn't give a fuck if Floyd died?
2. That would imply an intent that I don't think is really there, it was a random encounter in response to a store owner calling the cops.

[Anonymous No.11946639]

>>11946569
Nigga ded.

[Anonymous No.11946649]

>>11946639
What an astute observation anon

[Anonymous No.11946661]

>>11946601
What's odd is that the paramedics didn't try to administer narcan if Floyd was still alive when they put him in the ambulance.

[Anonymous No.11946674]

>>11946661
EMS did a shit job on arrival, when they put him on the stretcher they let his head bang against the ground when moving him (he could have had a potential neck injury based on when the arrived)

[Anonymous No.11946681]

>>11946661
Wow, yeah I wonder why. Perhaps they did, but it was too late? I can't find any confirmation on whether they did or not. He was unconscious at the time, so maybe they couldn't have been sure he Od'ed? The drug speculation may not have been relayed from officer to medic.

[Anonymous No.11946691]

Why did the paramedics look like sheriffs in brown?

>>11946540
What's Norfentanyl?

[Anonymous No.11946703]

not science
>muh coroner
again not science.

[Anonymous No.11946730]

>>11946703
>unofficial tv autopsies
not science
>muh blogposts
again not science
Official reports, transcripts, and medical records all follow the scienctific method when piecing together the truth.

[Anonymous No.11946768]

>>11946730
>scientific American opinion piece is the same as an ordinary blog
Seriously do the world a favor and fuck off back to your containment board.
>>>/pol/

You think that the opinions of uneducated anons on 4chan are more valuable than actual experts. You aren't here for a discussion of science, you're here to push your conspiracy narrative.

[Anonymous No.11946778]

>>11946768
>Opinion piece
No more Valid than Trump claiming hydroxychloroquine is a treatment for Covid-19, you sound like Donald Trump haha

[Anonymous No.11946804]

>>11946768
>you're here to push your conspiracy narrative.
>>11946528

[Anonymous No.11946885]

>>11946387

Didn't Floyd first complain that he couldn't breath while in the back of the police car with no one sitting on his chest? Isn't that a symptom of fentanyl overdose?

>>11946466

Scientific American has lost a lot of credibility over the years. I can remember when it used to be objective and impartial. Failure to mention the fentanyl leads me to believe that the 'gas lighting' going on here is coming from the authors.

[Anonymous No.11946915]

>>11946885
Yes and yes.
>Scientific American
Seems they've gone full critical race theory which means they've put ideology before science.

[Anonymous No.11946934]

>>11946277
>THAT BEING SAID, I do find it interesting you mention the foam. Source for this?
Find the police transcripts that were released. Floyd also admits to 'hooping', that is sticking drugs up his ass, when questioned.
He died of an overdose plus other factors but mostly the OD.

[Anonymous No.11946938]

>>11946515
The released bodycam transcripts. He repeatedly says he can't breath from the moment the cops start questioning him.

[Anonymous No.11946942]

>>11946521
>What notable discrepancies are there compared to the official?
The only thing you actually need to know is that the same celebrity coroner that determined Jeffrey Epstein hung himself declared the cops murdered poor George Floyd by strangling him to death with all that Fentanyl.

[Anonymous No.11946962]

https://www.sgtreport.com/2020/07/what-is-a-fatal-dose-of-fentanyl/

[Anonymous No.11946979]

>>11946962
interesting take
>This perversity of education spells the end of the United States. The kind of people American education is producing are not capable of scientific thinking. The kind of education Americans receive today cannot produce scientists or engineers. We have the emotive generation, people trained to be guided by emotion.

[Anonymous No.11947129]

>>11946428
>duty to protect
The Supreme Court already ruled that the police do not have a legal responsibility to protect you. To Protect and Serve is a marketing term, not a legal term. You can't prosecute a police officer for failing to protect you.

[Anonymous No.11947151]

>>11947129
Sup court also once ruled slavery was okay. Things can change.

[Anonymous No.11947169]

How does somebody speak if they can't breath?

[Anonymous No.11947172]

>>11947151
Okay but you can't charge someone for something that is not but may be something in the future

[Anonymous No.11947205]

>>11947169
It's not like that mattered. Chauvin held his knee there for another 1.5 minutes after Floyd was unconscious. Justify it.

[Anonymous No.11947351]

>>11947205
Floyd was a 6ft+ high felon who was freaking out

[Anonymous No.11947352]

>>11947351
with an extensive criminal history

[Anonymous No.11947365]

>>11946540
How the fuck do you even have all of that in your system?
Yes, I can imagine even a wisp of a light breeze could kill you if that's what you're on.
>Don't arrest me, I'm high, you can't arrest me, I might drop dead any second!

[Anonymous No.11947465]

>>11947351
How about when he was unconscious?

[Anonymous No.11947471]

>>11947465
My roommate was in CHP, police procedure when handling a suspect is to always assume the individual is a potential threat. Police handcuff dead people too.

[Anonymous No.11947529]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRoqSyIi-98
if anyone is genuinely interested in how the actions of the police lead to George Floyd's death even in light of his substance abuse, this is a pretty thorough discussion of his toxicology report as it relates to what happened.
For the /pol/ guys in this thread, just fuck off. There's an actual possible source of confusion here, granted, but even the most deplorable piece of shit should be able to see what happened to Floyd as a gross abuse of power. Even if he had lived, there was nothing justifiable about how they treated him.

[Anonymous No.11947542]

>>11947529
>saying 2nd degree wasn't justified is /pol/
Speaking of deplorable piece of shit, you seen his rap sheet? Oh but dindu nuffin, right.

[Anonymous No.11947551]

>>11947529
How was it a gross abuse of power? Floyd was high, probably overdosing, and acting erratic. The cops called an ambulance and restrained him. What would you have done? Crying about /pol/ isn't an argument btw.

[Anonymous No.11947558]

>>11947542
Yeah, you're clearly right. Doing bad things in the past means it's okay for someone to use excessive force in responding to someone who passed a counterfeit 20.
The guy had been out of prison for like 7 years when he died.
Anyway, the police just killing people who are not literally an immediate threat to everyone is pretty inexcusable. Try not being shitty at your one job if that's al that's asked of you.

[Anonymous No.11947584]

>>11947551
"Erratic" is probably a substantial overstatement. If you see the video it's not like he's pushing and slamming at the cops. He's just a big Black guy who was fucked up off a cocktail of drugs and didn't want to get in a cop car. He communicates by and large coherently and clearly to the officers the entire time.
I don't really get why a bunch of armed officers who are supposedly trained to handle people like this resorted so immediately to the technique they used. There was barely any crime of note committed, they were just afraid of some guy who didn't really pose much of a threat to them being objective.
I mean, in your own words, he was probably overdosing on fentanyl anyway and they apparently identified that - I don't think he was going to be making a wild charge or beating the shit out of officers if he was apparently almost dead from a drug overdose as is being posited by a lot of folks in this thread.

[Anonymous No.11947608]

>>11947558
>first week on the job
>go to arrest a 6ft jogger
>you don't know how many priors he had (a lot)
>you don't know how dangerous his priors were (very dangerous)
>you don't know if he's armed (no)
>he spergs out and is obviously on multiple drugs
>complains about breathing before you even detain him
>worried about being overpowered thanks to drug-induced EXD (look it up)
>follow procedure and detain him until medics arrive to treat the drug abuse victim
>he starts to OD while resisting being detained
>you don't know if he's faking or not
>wait for medics
>they take him
>he possibly dies of a heart attack on the way to hospital, possibly at the hospital
>get fired, lose pension, charged with MURDER, and have death threats towards you and your family for the rest of your life
>>11947584
EXD, officers are trained to be wary.

[Anonymous No.11947646]

Can we talk about the israeli military style training of police and submission methods? What's with that?

[Anonymous No.11947765]

>>11946428
>The cops should be prosecuted for failure of administer Narcan, which is a failure of their duty to protect and serve
In the criminal context? I don't think so. At least in my jurisdiction, criminal negligence causing death is a marked and substantial departure from the duty/standard of care that the accused is subject to. A police officer failing to administer a drug on someone that may or may not have been OD'ing when EMS is on the way is unlikely to be considered a marked and substantial departure of their duties. Even if it was, there would be a need to establish that failing to administer the Narcan would have been the casual element in Floyd's death. All of this would be on the BARD standard, and I can see too many ways to raise reasonable doubt.
>horrible optics
Not a crime.

[Anonymous No.11947910]

>>11946245
>asked if "on anything".
…When the police recognized his condition they called for medics. Floyd was restrained on his stomach according to protocol. One effect of fentanyl is nausea. Having a person on their stomach keeps them from choking on their own vomit. This is why police protocol requires them to be restrained on their stomach.

[Anonymous No.11947912]

>>11946446
>Do cops carry this at all times?
It's usually paramedics. Cops will administer ketamine to subdue crazies but anytime a non-medical person administers drugs they are asking for litigation even if the intention is good. It's less hassle to let them die.

[Anonymous No.11947921]

>>11946245
bro fuck off with this shit. Either stop being a fucking brainlet and learn how the world works or go back to /pol/ and argue with your autistic incel brethren

[Anonymous No.11948055]

>>11946245
This has nothing to do with science.

[Anonymous No.11948084]

>>11947921
>learn how the world works
So criminal trials and investigations no longer require evidence, reasonable doubt, proof of guilt? Just some tweets and a riot? I sure love 2020.
>>11948055
Politics aside, much of this thread was spent discussing the effects of drug overdose on the respiratory system, paramedic practices, the ability of medication to stave an overdose and many other medical questions. And last I checked, medicine is science.

[Anonymous No.11948092]

>>11948084
Regardless of what the thread contains, OP's post is asking a question about a matter of policy, the procedures used by our system to declare somebody dead. This might be an interesting discussion in other context, but it has nothing to do with science.

[Anonymous No.11948112]

>>11948092
I see what you mean. Yeah I guess OP is not strictly "science"

[Anonymous No.11948240]

>>11946245
Um sweaty I don’t think all the major news organisations and the second autopsy people would lie
Do you have a peer reviewed academic source?!?

[Anonymous No.11948897]

>>11946245
Lol fentanyl is stronger then heroin, he wouldent be talking let alone conscious. Also when you go under for surgery it's a carefully monitored od with a tube that keeps you breathing. Crack maybe but def not fentanyl. Do some of your own research before you believe everything you read on the internet

[Anonymous No.11948901]

>>11946622
To save his own ass because he saw people recording him

[Anonymous No.11948951]

>>11948897
The toxicology report is in this thread, he had quite a bit in his system. Floyd was an addict though so just because it's stronger doesn't mean he'd be unconscious due to tolerance. He also had meth in his system so that would probably offset the more sedating aspects of the opioids.

[Anonymous No.11948953]

>>11948901
So he realized people were recording him, called an ambulance then decided to kill Floyd anyway? That doesn't makes sense.

[Anonymous No.11948960]

>>11946245

You middle class STEM bugmen are losing power

[Anonymous No.11948965]

>>11948951
>The toxicology report is in this thread
A jpg with a bunch of drug names is in this thread.

[Anonymous No.11949007]

>>11948965
It's the same in the official report, you can download it from the hennepin county medical examiner yourself if you like.