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/sci/ - Science & Math

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11898645 No.11898645 [Reply] [Original]

>Veganism is good for your health and helps reverse the effects of heart disease and diabetes
>For the environment
>For the well-being of other animals
>Eating meat gives you heart problems and cancer
So now that the science is settled regarding the fact that veganism is just objectively better for everything (health, ecology, ethics) why do we continue to eat meat? Why isn't everyone a vegan? Why do we ignore the holocaust occuring in out backyards? Watch Dominion and see what is happening to these creatures if you are ignorant. They are other beings of this earth with their own experience which we are violating for no good reason. We do not live isolated independent existences but have relations embedded with the rest of the environment and universe. The way we view other beings and treat them ultimately extends to our relationship with our socioecology and the rest of the world. The way we do things now is ultimately self destructive.

Also disclaimer: I notice when veganism is brought up everyone becomes a macho nihilist and uses weak ethics and philosophy with shaky foundations that they wouldn't use to justify other ethical conundrums. Let's stop with the mental gymnastics. Do a bit of self reflection before submitting a post. No you are not an ubermensch because you buy individually plastic wrapped steaks at Walmart.

>> No.11898681

I eat meat because it tastes good and don't care about stupid critters or the heckin environment because I am not a leftie that buys into propaganda. I am free to eat meat. I'm not eating your fucking bugs. It's the cycle of life and I am top of the food chain so I can do whatever I want. And in the grand scheme of things nothing matters anyway and cutting out meat will reduce my pleasure.

>> No.11898686

>>11898681
based

>> No.11898710

>>11898645
>Watch Dominion and see what is happening
oh no hes too far gone

>> No.11898892

If we don't eat meat we literally die because of nutrient deficiency, plus meat is much more energetic in the same volume and ease of obtaining (before) or transformation of worse to better resources (modern production).
Our organisms are already adapted to digest other animal's flesh and crops, there's no way around it bro.

>> No.11898921

>>11898645
b12

>> No.11898924

>>11898892
All propaganda. The science is settled. We don't need meat. Every major health organization agrees with me.

>> No.11898928

>>11898645
Shouldn't you just eat meat if you are diabetic? Because no sugar?

>> No.11898930

source: trust me bruh

>> No.11898954

>>11898681
>And in the grand scheme of things nothing matters

cringe

>> No.11898959
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11898959

>>11898645
>veganism
Oh, you mean a plant based diet? Retard.

>> No.11898963

>>11898645
veganism has some benefits but it also has some downsides. b vitimins are low in plants and proteins are well higher yield with animals

but the main problem is that if you want to go back to eating meat you get sick. i believe cheese can help with this is you dont cut it out of your diet but a real vegan doesnt eat animal byproducts like dairy

also the obvious that all plant sources of protein in significant quantities are high in fat. seeds / nuts / legumes all fat rich. lentils are carb heavy its a cereal crop like wheat or rye or hops

so you eat your plant proteins and get more fat intake think your healthy then gain weight because of a lack of b vitamins so you exercise less and have less energy to do manual labor. then the liberal pyramid scheme shows its ugly face and people start talking of meal plans you pay for and some guy tries to sell you magic berries. it was all just to make you fat just like artificial sweeteners. scientifically proven that artificially sweeteners make you gain weight. diet coke is worse than normal coke

>> No.11898980

>>11898645
Where would you draw the line on living organisms that we can justifiably kill for our own happiness? We can see our own emotions inside of an expressive animal with it's eyes and cries, but what about the simple life of a mosquito or even a microorganism?

I agree that eventually people will think we were barbarians for eating meat longer than we needed to, much in the same way we had slaves longer than we needed to. But I wonder if a cultural revolution towards veganism will lead into a rabbit hole of other animal or wildlife protection policies.

>> No.11898986

>>11898645
>Why isn't everyone a vegan?
Because meat tastes good. Why isn't everyone nice and productive?

>> No.11898987

>>11898921
>science board
>nooo, you can't just synthesize vitamins

>> No.11898992

>>11898645
>So now that the science is settled regarding the fact that veganism is just objectively better for everything (health
The healthiest societies all ate some animal products.

>> No.11898997

>>11898963
>so you eat your plant proteins and get more fat intake think your healthy then gain weight because of a lack of b vitamins so you exercise less and have less energy to do manual labor. then the liberal pyramid scheme shows its ugly face and people start talking of meal plans you pay for and some guy tries to sell you magic berries
This is a bizarre slippery slope. Veganism is all a conspiracy to... sell magic berries?

>> No.11899003

>>11898992
Most of the societies if the past ate grain heavy diets and seldom ate meat. They most definitely didn't eat meat in the gargantuan portions we do today. But who the fuck cares what they did? We know better now anyway and are a different and newer society.

>> No.11899007

>>11899003
>We know better now anyway
stop making up shit and learn about confirmation bias you retard

>> No.11899010

>>11899003
>We know better now anyway
No we don't. Japan still eats plenty of grains and they're one of the longest lived societies in the world.

>> No.11899011

>>11899003
>They most definitely didn't eat meat in the gargantuan portions we do today.
In other words, they weren't vegans.

>> No.11899018

>>11899007
In regards to diet yeah we know better
>>11899011
Read the rest of the post
>>11899010
I don't even know what you are arguing. I am pro vegan just in case you are confused.

>> No.11899020

>>11899018
Find a society that didn't eat some animal products. No one implied they were eating gargantuan portions of meat, but they all consumed some animal products. By the way, most plant based diets shy away from refined grains. Someone should tell those Japs that white rice is shortening their lifespans.

>> No.11899021

>>11898987
>human biology
>synthesizes b12
>science board
yikes

>> No.11899088

>>11899021
When things are made artificially, we often call them "synthetic" or "synthesized".

>> No.11899152 [DELETED] 

>>11899020
>Find a society that didn't eat some animal products.
I don't need to because that doesn't matter. We are a different and newer society. Who cares what people in the past did.
And white rice is fine.

>> No.11899156

>>11899020
>Find a society that didn't eat some animal products.
Literally has nothing to do with anything. The only reason people eat animal products anymore is because of habit/culture. We should work to drop bad habits.
And white rice is fine.

>> No.11899161

>>11899156
>he doesn't know the average japanese person would live to 150 if they switched out white rice for bacon

>> No.11899172

>>11899161
anon americans live shorter

>> No.11899188

>>11899172
whats your control group says thats down to nutrition?
theyre different ethnicities, you need to remove all independent variables

>> No.11899200

>>11899188
>have one of the most obese and overweight populations
>the fact that higher meat consumption is connected with heart disease and cancer
anon stop being retarded

>> No.11899201

>>11898645
I didnt know /sci/ was taken over by retards that believe their > are irrefutably correct. did u know > is a meme? niggas using pepe to act based )0_0)

>> No.11899204

I sometimes feel bad for the animals and the environment but I don't like being guilt tripped. I think we'll eventually have vat grown meat anyway and then all the vegans can stfu

>> No.11899205

>>11898892
>If we don't eat meat we literally die because of nutrient deficiency
Wrong, and you're retarded.

>> No.11899209

>>11899201
that's apu shut the fuck up newfag

>> No.11899215

>>11899205
Everyone who didn't eat meat literally died or will literally die.

>> No.11899295

Wanna hear my most traumatic experience in my adult life? Two years ago, while I was in Thailand, my vegan friend invited me to a dinner at a vegan restaurant in Bangkok. I told him that I'm not vegan, and asked if other would be ok with me being there. He assured that everything would be ok. So, we went. I had no prejudice against veganism, I actually thought that it was good for health. Anyway, we go there, order. It's a small company of around 15 middle age people, all seem decent and nice people. We order food, and pasta that was recommended by my friend is fucking delicious. I'm enjoying myself. An hour in, couple of people start talking about eating disorders and man it escalated quickly. It felt like every body had some sort of eating disorder. One can't eat nuts, other can not eat white rice, third couldn't eat brown rice. I just couldn't wrap my head around. To be clear I asked them if they had this disorders before becoming vegan, and no, they developed this disorders AFTER becoming vegan. How is that fucking possible, how would you develop white rice intolerance while being vegan? Apparently, it's possible. Then conversation took really horrifying turns. They started talking about teeth and dental cavities. Holy shit! Holy fucking shit. I was shook when one guy said he has eight cavities, then another woman says she has twenty cavities. I was so sad, so sorry for her, I couldn't look at her. Someone else had fifteen cavities, another one five cavities... And it just wouldn't stop, they were going on and on how they take care of their teeth, how they wash two times per day, rinse their mouth like ten times a day... Jesus, it was a torture. Since then I can't take serious anyone who advocates veganism. To me it's fucking crystal clear that we need animal products and nothing would change my mind.

>> No.11899303

>>11899295
Further proof /sci/ is the lowest IQ board.

>> No.11899304

>>11898645
veganism isn't better, but low meat consumption is better, and a 6 ft. tall man only needs about 4 oz of animal protein a day, probably even less

also sugar isn't bad for you, oil is, and the low quality oil-fed animals you eat are also

>> No.11899305

>>11899303
Please explain.

>> No.11899306

>>11898959
a plant based diet isn't veganism. Veganism is simply one form of a plant based diet.

>> No.11899309

>>11899200
>>11899172
>>11899161
Asians naturally have longer lifespans than whites, they develop more slowly in literally every other regard. It's not just the diet that's doing it.

And the average Jap diet isn't exactly great, they eat tons of fried snacks and processed shit, probably even more than Americans.

>> No.11899313

>>11899309
>Japan obesity: a measly 3%
>Merica obesity: a whopping 40%
anon stop being retarded

>> No.11899347
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11899347

>>11899313
>murica
Japan has a higher lifespan than any western country, despite being a high-stress overcrowded shithole that's been stagnant for over 30 years where people have no privacy or future prospects and have to become literal slaves to live in a 10'x10' apartment.

It's genetic.

>> No.11899357

>>11899347
Japan isn't even that bad you don't know what you are talking about.Japan is pretty comf actually.
Anyway you are wrong. The western world needs to stop stuffing humbaga down their throats.

>> No.11899368

>>11899347
Not everyone lives in inner city tokyo.

>> No.11899370

>>11899347
jap life ex: 84.1 3.2 obesity 24.7 overweight
uk: 81.16 28.7 obesity 35.6 overweight
france: 82.52 10.0 obesity 40 overweight

>> No.11899395

>>11898963
>artificially sweeteners make you gain weight
how?
i know artificial sweeteners make you feel more hungry than you actually are and you are likely to eat more than you need
but does artificial sweeteners make one gain weight by itself?

>> No.11899403

>>11898963
>diet coke is worse than normal coke
wait what? source?

>> No.11899413

>>11899304
>probably even less
Zero is less, so you're technically correct.

>>11899306
The terminology is pretty messy. Somehow there's multiple terms for "vegetarian but not a good one", "vegetarian but not really", and "vegetarian but specifically mentioning I eat certain foods that are already considered vegetarian", but not really one for "vegan but not a good one" other than just "vegetarian". I'm putting half-and-half in coffee because I haven't found a good replacement for it, I don't buy eggs but I won't throw a fit if there's egg in something, and there's no term for that diet.

>> No.11899442

>>11898645
Several reasons. I have a shitty job that is physically and mentally demanding, and if I don't eat meat I simply won't be able to do it, my body won't be able to do it. I have active lifestyle, it won't be possible if I go vegan. I haven't got kids yet, kids of vegans nornally have developmental issues, at best they grow weak and small, but it also affects their brain and energy levels.
If I already had a family and was rich, and basically didn't need to compete with others all the time and didn't have any worries then I could take it essy and spend five or ten times more time on my diet, eat vegan, well prepared food, eat appropriate portions, eat every half hour etc.. That is simply not possible in modern world.

Our best bet is lab grown meat without using live animals.

>> No.11899450

>>11899313
do you even know how much MSG is consumed in Japan?
youre the one who need to stop being retarded
there are multiple variables to take care of in the real world you idiot
your cults solution to all the worlds problem is just as shit as the last cults

>> No.11899453

>>11899442
>at best they grow weak and small
>everyone says "anon, if you ate meat you'd be so much bigger and stronger"
>tfw 6'1" and in decent shape despite no meat

>> No.11899462

>>11898963
To be honest, from personal experience, I have yet to meet fat vegan or even fat vegetarian.

>>11899304
I think it is about low calory intake tbqh, portion sizes don't matter (as long as with reason.

>> No.11899483

>>11899462
I've known one fat vegetarian, but it's because the junk food he'd eat a ton of was vegetarian. Meat wouldn't make him eat better, just give him heart disease sooner.

>> No.11899489

>>11899453
I have first hand experience with vegan kids. A (former) friend of mine leads such lifestyle, her daughter is now two and she is the most lethargic and low energy baby ever, I even called child services but they basically said they can't do anything because raising your kids vegan isn't illegal here. I know several others similar cases.
If you think you feel fine, then count yourself lucky, but you really have no idea just how much more capable you would be like if you were raised on proper diet. Your definition of fine is questionable.

>> No.11899496

>>11899295
Dude you can get plenty of cavities with the standard diet. Also not being able to eat things due to overexposure happens. I did that when I was 6. Drank exclusively orange juice on a trip, went to my grandmas, had orange juice with breakfast, threw up, and it took a few years before I'd drink it again. When someone restricts their diet they have to be careful with what they eat if they don't know a lot of recipes.

>>11899309
>Asians naturally have longer lifespans than whites, they develop more slowly in literally every other regard. It's not just the diet that's doing it
>>>/x/

>> No.11899506

>>11899489
>Healthy young child goes to doctor, gets pumped with massive shot of many vaccines, doesn't feel good and changes - AUTISM. Many such cases!

>> No.11899524

>>11899506
It possible, but as far as I know only mmr vaccine does that, I was vaccinated as a kid as have my peers, not a single person from my age group was "autistic", the very first time I heard about autism is when I visited 4chan, I thought it was a joke, just a legal reason, an unprovable medical condition in america to avoid responsibility, claim money,make excuses why one can't do this or that (I still do tbqh). But I had three different vaccines spaced out over period of several years instead of single mmr, I turned out fine,same as others in my age group.

>> No.11899551

>>11899496
I've never met anyone with 8 cavities in my life outside of that meeting, yet alone twenty cavities. Yes, people have cavities, but that's usually because of consuming ton of sugar and not properly taking care of their teeth. And these people seemed like they really had great dental hygiene, yet most of them, if not all, had problems with teeth. I've met several people on keto diet, even people on carnivore diet and not a single time they complained about teeth or eating disorders. The only thing I remember them complaining is that their diet is not convenient in social events.

>> No.11899555

>>11898645
enjoy your b12 deficiency

>> No.11899564

>>11899003
What are hunter-gatherer societies again?

>> No.11899573

>>11899551
It's pretty obvious that there's nothing in a meat-free inherently causing tooth issues, despite your anecdote.

>people on keto diet, even people on carnivore diet and not a single time they complained about teeth or eating disorders
Not like these are two biased samples, or these diets correlate with views that might cause them to complain more/less.

>> No.11899610

>>11899573
So are you suggesting that it was pure coincidence?

>> No.11899622

>>11899610
>most vegetarians/vegans don't have many cavities, it's not a known issue and there'd be no way to cover it up
>in this one totally real group in your story, everyone has all their teeth rotted
Coincidence? Yes and no. It's obvious it has a different cause, you've decided something that can't be causing it must be causing it because you want to believe it.

>> No.11899656

>>11899622
I'm not buying it, not gonna ignore elephant in the room for no particular reason. Those people were just random expats in Thailand, I can't think of any other reasons for them to have bad teeth or eating disorders.

>> No.11899661

>>11899656
Wow, the global veg conspiracy must be very powerful to provide confidential dental coverage to everyone in it except them.

>> No.11899670

>>11898924
good luck feeding your child vegan

>> No.11899678

>>11899003
>Most of the societies if the past ate grain heavy diets and seldom ate meat.
source?

>> No.11899695

>>11899156
>The only reason people eat animal products anymore is because of habit/culture
it's the opposite way around, people are only vegan or vegetarian because of habit/culture. if humans can incorporate animals or animal products into their diet they will

>> No.11899697

>>11899453
>>tfw 6'1" and in decent shape despite no meat
did you grow up on a vegan diet?

>> No.11899873

>>11899205
t. B vitamin deficient fabaceous boy

>> No.11900147 [DELETED] 

>>11899695
Vegetarianism maybe. Veganism no. People usually go vegan today for politicsl/ethical reasons and/or health. Meat eating has been heavily ingrained in most cultures around the world from the past. People only eat meat today because it is just seen as the normal thing to do they never reflect or question themselves (eating meat is the npc diet). Everyone is also detached from the whole process of factory farming. They just see the plastic wrapped steak in from of them in the meat aisle they never see the slaughter. In the past people would actually feel grief for the animals they ate because they actually lived with them. That's why in the Bible it says they have been given dominion of the animals by God, it was used to justify eating their animals. They also ate meat less. But yeah all of that is gone now with factory farming. It's a new age. We live in a new global society which was unprecedented. We need to be ruthless in questioning what we are doing. Great change is needed.

>> No.11900156

>>11899695
Vegetarianism maybe. Veganism no. People usually go vegan today for political/ethical/ecological reasons and/or health. It is definitely not habit. Meat eating has been heavily ingrained in most cultures around the world from the past. People only eat meat today because it is just seen as the normal thing to do they never reflect or question themselves (eating meat is the npc diet). Meat eating is definitely habit. Everyone is also detached from the whole process of factory farming. They just see the plastic wrapped steak in from of them in the meat aisle they never see the slaughter. In the past people would actually feel grief for the animals they ate because they actually lived with them and had a closer relationship with them than the animals we eat today. That's why in the Bible it says they have been given dominion of the animals by God, it was used to justify eating their animals. They also ate meat less. But yeah all of that is gone now with factory farming. It's a new age. We live in a new global society which was unprecedented. We need to be ruthless in questioning what we are doing. Great change is needed.

>> No.11900177
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11900177

Read empty planet. This stuff is going to solve itself, no need to deny yourself the intense pleasure of carnism

>> No.11900180

>>11898645
>B12 and Iron

No.

>> No.11900267

>>11899020
Ironically, the nips actually live healthier lives because they eat PLENTY of meat in the form of seafood. They even eat BEEF sashimi. In other words, raw meat. The Mongols also did that when they were invading China, and their superior health outshined the crooked and rotten teeth of the Chinese.
There's a reason the Aborigines, despite being actual cavemen, have relatively good dental work.

>> No.11900268

>>11899156
White rice is fine when washed properly.

>> No.11900298
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11900298

>>11900267
>Mongols
>superior health
Are you retarded? They had a life expectancy of 40 at some point because of their awful diets.
And Japs consume much less meat than western countries.

>> No.11900325

>>11898645
Well, it seems like the only country that ever pulled off a large vegan population is india, which has a fantastic variety of edible plants.
It is cheaper to eat meat in the US, albeit because the government subsidizes their industry. One would need a broad knowledge of plant nutrition to subsist on plants entirely.
Moreover, my abstinence from meat will not save any animal's life or ease its suffering, as any surplus meat could easily be sold to the rest of the world.

I don't want to put in the effort to relearn cooking or to pay more for my food, and it is questionable that it would improve my health to practice veganism.
It is regretful that the animals suffer as they are killed, it probably also reduces the quality of the meat in so doing.

Perhaps you are new to sci, but you've made quite a few claims without much in the way of evidence and seem mainly interested in the ethics of this subject.

>> No.11900338

>>11900325
Eh vegan diets aren't that expensive. If you know how to shop they might even be cheaper. The price of beans for example is a joke. If you aren't wasting money on a lot of the fad stuff like fake meats or whatever I think you save a lot of money switching to vegan. You are right that you would have to put a bit of effort to researching what you will have to eat and maybe learning how to cook tho.

>> No.11900347

>>11900325
Also on the point of saving animals, I think there was something said that one person going vegan saves 365 animals each year. Also helps reduce the carbon foot print. I know it is barely a dent but it is something. Which is why veganism is a political movement not just an individualist liberal lifestyle. It needs to be more widespread.

>> No.11900362

>>11900298
Greece for example consumes 78,kg of meat. It is one of the countries with the longest life expectancy.
Source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_meat_consumption

>> No.11900429

>>11898681
FPBP

>> No.11900552

>>11899555
What are vitamins

>> No.11900559

>>11899697
Vegetarian diet since before birth.

>>11900338
>If you know how to shop they might even be cheaper. The price of beans for example is a joke.
Definitely. If you just replace meat with fake meat, it costs more. If you learn new recipes you'll save money.

>> No.11900576

>>11899156
>And white rice is fine.
Sure it is, but your "science" with reversing heart disease primarily came from the Ornish Diet, which requires whole grain rice. You can't go picking and choosing what you want to believe. If you aren't allowed meat, then why are you willing to accept whole grains aren't necessary?

>> No.11900584

Why are you debating when lab-grown meat is a thing now?
If they do it right, in 20 years we can basically get a lab-grown steak and no animal is harmed in the process.
You also have enough vitamin.

>> No.11900603

>>11899573
>It's pretty obvious that there's nothing in a meat-free inherently causing tooth issues, despite your anecdote.
Really? Phytic acid? Low minerals? Acidic foods? Malnutrition? Of course it's probably possible to be malnourished on a number of diets, but I do think certain types of Vegan diets need to be particularly careful. There's a lot of people that have wrecked their health trying to consume almost nothing but fruit, for example.

>> No.11900614

>>11900298
40 years was certainly higher than the 20 years the chinese had at the time. They often die to other issues, like disease. The Inuits also live long, and those fuckers club seals for food.
>>11900603
This. Phytic acid is a major problem with veganism. The reason the Japanese do so well with rice is that rice absorbs water, and phytic acid is soluble. Combine that with a diet of seafood and fermented vegetables like takuan (pickled Daikon root) l, and you've got one healthy lifestyle.

>> No.11900623

>>11899622
>most vegetarians/vegans don't have many cavities, it's not a known issue and there'd be no way to cover it up
It is a known issue. Obviously there's many different diets a Vegan can follow, but in general, Vegans seem to have greater rates of tooth decay compared to people who eat animal products. Even vegetarians fair better.

>> No.11900643

>>11900623
Vegetarians fare better because they consume animal products, unlike vegans. The reason vegans are so unhealthy is that their diets are unsurprisingly not as nutritious as a meaty diet. They'll claim that our primate ancestors and relatives are herbivores, but will conveniently ignore insect DNA found in the droppings of gorillas and the fact that the very reason humans went ABOVE is because they found a way to safely consume meat long past what most carnivores would consider revolting and that humans only managed to survive the ice age by killing giant herbivores that could eat any extremophilic plants in the permafrost.

>> No.11900654

>>11900603
>Phytic acid? Low minerals? Acidic foods? Malnutrition?
None of those are inherent to not eating meat. Notice how you had to go all the way to fruitarianism to come up with an example? By the same logic, diets with meat are also incredibly bad for you.

>> No.11900693

>>11900654
>None of those are inherent to not eating meat.
Is this thread about Veganism in general, or the ideal Vegan diet? If you're going to argue that Veganism as a general rule is healthier, then you need to accept all versions of it.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21217622/
"The study revealed greater incidence of demineralization and white spots in the vegan subjects compared to the omnivorous ones localized at the neck of the teeth and on the vestibular surfaces of dental elements (with the exception of the lower anterior group). The saliva pH, more acid in the omnivorous patients, ranged between four and six. Changes in oral conditions in both groups of subjects were observed."

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0121835
Vegan diets are low in arginine, which likely explains the increased levels of biofilm.

https://doi.org/10.1093/ajcn/48.3.712
"...much more likely than age- and sex-matched controls to have dental erosions on some tooth surfaces, lower salivary pH levels, and lower stimulated saliva flow."

>> No.11900702

>>11898681
>And in the grand scheme of things nothing matters anyway and cutting out meat will reduce my pleasure.
based edgy teenager

>> No.11900715

>>11900576
i mean i promote eating mostly whole grains but if you are going to eat rice go with white. brown rice has arsenic, but there are a lot of grains you can eat not just rice.

>> No.11900723

>>11900614
>40 years was certainly higher
no it wasn't. like it is known that the mongols had health issues and died early deaths because of their shitty diets. in their late reigns they are all depicted as fat fucks.

>> No.11900725

>>11900643
vegans are not unhealthy you have no idea what you are talking about

>> No.11900731

>>11900693
>If you're going to argue that Veganism as a general rule is healthier, then you need to accept all versions of it.
You're putting words in my mouth, so, if you're going to argue that meat is healthier, then you're going to have to accept that eating 10 pounds of raw bacon per day and nothing else is healthier.

We weren't talking about a slight increase in some people, we were talking about a guy claiming it will make all of your teeth rot at once.

>https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21217622/
> Conclusion: In order to research into the cause-effect relationship of the vegan diet on the oral cavity effectively, the sample needs to be studied for a longer period of time and the results re-evaluated.

>more acid in the omnivorous patients
Is this a typo or did you post two studies that contradict each other?

>> No.11900766

>>11898645
>Veganism is good for your health and helps reverse the effects of heart disease and diabetes
I don't have diabetes or any type of heart disease

>For the environment
Only legitimate point imo. I still believe that promoting a reduction of meat consumption rather than some dogmatic veganism would have been the better message, but the most radical message is the loudest, so they had to ruin that of course.

>For the well-being of other animals
I absolutely do not care and don't see why I should. I don't buy the cheapest meat, mostly for taste and that's that. I don't see an ethical problem with killing an animal.

>Eating meat gives you heart problems and cancer
Most studies I've read that compare vegan with "normal" diets have fundamental problems with their design, mostly because they compare regular people with people that spend considerable time adjusting their diets, something which is strongly correlated with other health-beneficial personality attributes.

>> No.11900770

>>11900766
higher consumption of meat puts you at risk for heart disease

>> No.11900773

>>11900770
Again, what I see in studies is very weak evidence. There seems to be stronger evidence that processed meat is harmful, but I eat very clean, so I think I'm fine.

>> No.11900894

>>11900731
>Is this a typo or did you post two studies that contradict each other?
Did you actually read the results? Did you look at the second study? More enamel erosion in the vegan groups. A lower pH does not have to mean more erosion since there's also biofilms and remineralization to take into consideration, and based on the second study, arginine (which is found in meat and dairy) is beneficial for teeth. There's also pH between meals, and pH during meals. You can incur damage from direct acidity from food, and you can incur damage from acidity during fermentation between meals.

>if you're going to argue that meat is healthier, then you're going to have to accept that eating 10 pounds of raw bacon per day and nothing else is healthier.
You're the one arguing veganism as a whole is healthier. I'm arguing that veganism is going to be missing some nutrients in the majority of situations that even a small amount of animal products can cover. You're eliminating a large amount of food entirely, I am not. I suspect a mostly vegan or vegetarian diet is fine, with the addition of a small amount of meat or seafood. I'm not pinning myself into a corner of all or nothing.

>> No.11900899

What does /sci/ think?
>https://carnivoreaurelius.com/vegan-diet-debunked/

>> No.11900924

>>11900766
>I don't have diabetes or any type of heart disease
debatable
>Most studies I've read that compare vegan with "normal" diets have fundamental problems with their design
Also known as "i don't agree with it because i am bad, fat and balding"

>> No.11900930

>>11900899
from the name of the link it is probably bullshit. how retarded do you have to be to go carnivore?

>> No.11900931

>>11900899
>carnivoreaurelius
>egan-diet-debunked
top kek

>> No.11900932

>>11900899
>carnivoreaurelius
Sounds like an unbiased scientific source.

>> No.11900938

>>11900899
I'm not for a vegan diet, but he doesn't even appear to be taking into account that the majority of plant based agriculture goes to feeding livestock, not humans. Even if not arguing about the environmental impact, we waste a shitload of potential calories by feeding plants to animals instead of consuming them directly.

https://awellfedworld.org/feed-ratios/

Also, CAFOs play a role in the development of antibiotic resistance. The animals live in such shitty, confined conditions that they needed to be loaded up with antibiotics. CAFOs would be unnecessary if we cut back on meat consumption, and it would also mean more crops could be grown directly for human consumption. Plenty of locations support near year-round grazing for ruminants, and it probably leads to healthier meat as well.

>> No.11900945

>>11898645
Eat whatever you want. Dont force that shit on me.

>> No.11900950

>>11900924
>Also known as "i don't agree with it because i am bad, fat and balding"
Without knowing it, you've proven that veganism is especially harmful to the brain. You act like a child and start name calling when there's any sort of apathetical opposition.
>FLESH BAD! SOEY GOOD!
>WHAT? SOMEONE DISAGREES? I GUESS HE'S JUST A FATTY, LALALALALA!
Having an ego doesn't make you smart, especially if you don't have the actual computational abilities to back your ego up. Maybe some beef will fix your brain damage. And funnily enough, obesity, heart disease, and other dietary complications didn't even exist until the the invention of vegetable oils.

>> No.11900951

>>11900924
Not the person you're arguing with, but if you're going to resort to ad hominems then why even bother?

>> No.11900960

>>11900930
>>11900931
>>11900932
You're like children refusing to eat vegetables. Oh, the irony.
>>11900938
You're the only one who hasn't refused to actually try rebutting the information given. Perhaps you are right. Really, I think we should just cut the population down in general. Starve off all the big city bugmen, maybe us actual humans can live better as a result.

>> No.11900966

>>11900950
For the record the vegan nutritional community is very much against all refined plant oils.

>> No.11900971

>>11900950
>Without knowing it, you've proven that veganism is especially harmful to the brain. You act like a child and start name calling when there's any sort of apathetical opposition.
That's funny because iam not even vegan
>Having an ego doesn't make you smart
Yes it does
>especially if you don't have the actual computational abilities to back your ego up
Just because you disagree with what was said doesn't make it wrong fatty
> And funnily enough, obesity, heart disease, and other dietary complications didn't even exist until the the invention of vegetable oils.
False equivalance
>>11900951
Fat and angry aren't ad hominems when arguing with carnitards. They are literally descriptions

>> No.11900982

>>11900960
Pick one you think is strongest, don't expect people to line-by-line debunk a random article full of bullshit that doesn't follow its own logic.

>> No.11900987

>>11900971
>because iam not even vegan
You still may have iron deficiency.
>Just because you disagree with what was said doesn't make it wrong fatty
Just because you can't comprehend someone reasonably disagreeing with you doesn't mean they're fucking DOOM macubuses, aspie redditor.
>Fat and angry aren't ad hominems when arguing with carnitards
Except most of us don't follow the meat only diet. I will admit that I do have some pudge, but I actually know the culprit: too many snacks and grains. Stuff like rice, bread, chips, sugar, etc etc. Where does that shit come from? Oh, plants. There's a reason obesity didn't exist until AFTER the widespread use of seed based oils.

>> No.11900991

>>11900982
You made the claims, now support them. I never said ANYTHING that implies I fully agree with the carnivore guy. I just wanted to see what this board thought of it, and so far, only one anon put up an actually competent reply.

>> No.11900997

>>11900971
>Fat and angry aren't ad hominems when arguing with carnitards. They are literally descriptions
this is why people dont like you

>> No.11901002

>>11900997
This is also why people rightfully think vegans are retards.

>> No.11901006

>>11900987
>admits to being fat
>still copes about the reason he is fat
Do fatties really?

>> No.11901011
File: 163 KB, 1200x979, carlruiz.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11901011

>>11900997
>the people

>> No.11901033
File: 13 KB, 500x301, your brain on this.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11901033

>>11901011

>> No.11901037

>>11900991
Uh, you posted that shit, not me. The board thinks it's too shitty to be worth looking at.

>> No.11901040

>>11901011
But look how healthy his teeth are!

>> No.11901042
File: 8 KB, 227x222, images.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11901042

>>11901033
posting random images i see

>> No.11901048

>>11899306
Exactly. It is not veganism that is healthy, it is a plant based diet.

>> No.11901060

>>11900971
>Fat and angry aren't ad hominems when arguing with carnitards.
Is any person who eats meat a carnitard in your eyes, because that's something like 99.9% of the human population.

>> No.11901063

>>11901060
No it's the stupid ones who revolve their personality around it and get triggered over the fact that plant based is healthier

>> No.11901064

>>11898645
I think it depends on you. I feel the best after I eat a prime cut steak. The following day, I have a ton of energy and always get the most done on those days. Nothing vegan I've ever eaten has produced the same effect for me.

>> No.11901066

>>11899306
And a plant based diet need not be entirely vegan or vegetarian (though of course it can be).

>> No.11901068

>>11901060
>99.9% of the human population
Did China and India nuke each other while I wasn't looking?

>> No.11901074

>>11901068
Are you actually suggesting the majority of Chinese and Indians consume absolutely no meat? About 70% of Indians are not vegetarians, and that number is below 1% for China.

>> No.11901080

>>11901074
>About 70% of Indians are not vegetarians
60%, but it doesn't matter since 30% of India would still be 5% of Earth's population.

>> No.11901098

>>11901080
The most recent numbers show 70%, and there's even some skepticism over those numbers. Purely vegan would be substantially lower still since most still cook with ghee. I'm not sure that's a horse you want to hitch your cart to anyway since the life expectancy is India is terrible.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-43581122

>> No.11901107

>>11901098
I'm only here to point out you're a retard if you think 0.1% of the human population doesn't eat meat, even if you'll inevitably claim hyperbole.

>> No.11901126

>>11901107
I should have said animal products, since that's what this thread is about. Still, dismissing 96% of the planet as carnitards would be pretty stupid.

>> No.11901194

>>11901006
Except I wasn't coping. I was explaining. And guess what? I can lose that pudge with enough exercise and removal of empty calories. Your retardation is permanent.

>> No.11901200
File: 70 KB, 657x527, 1547299900627.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11901200

>>11898645
I like to eat meat

>> No.11901211
File: 60 KB, 1200x553, unga bunga.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11901211

>>11901063
You seem to be triggered by the fact that meat based diets exist. Remember, our primate ancestors may have been herbivores, but they're still flinging shit at eachother while we're actually going to space. Also, we survived the ice age, and there were no avocadoes to put on toast then :)

>> No.11901221

>>11901200
frogfren is wholesome he is vegan don't taint that image anon

>> No.11901270

>>11901211
Early humanity's survival included a lot of rape and murder. Which would you prefer is done to you first?

>> No.11901299

>>11901270
you were the one saying that the past was herbivores, and so it was good
youre literally just accusing him of having your own position