/sci/ - Science & Math

[Anonymous No.11896462]

Is meditation legit?

[Anonymous No.11896471]

>>11896462
Yes

[Anonymous No.11896473]

why wont you find out?

[Anonymous No.11896476]

Only midwits believe in this pseudospiritual bullshit. Just like any other spiritual crap it tells you to stop thinking. Meditation even brazenly demands this explicitly. Of course for midwits this is appealing. For midwits thinking is very hard. Even though they like to be arrogant to pretend they're smart, they actually hate thinking because it's too hard for them. So meditation becomes the ideal excuse to stay away from thinking while at the same time feeling superior to others by pretending it's so deep and healthy. In reality it's just wasted time.

[Anonymous No.11896477]

>>11896476
imagine being this retarded

[Anonymous No.11896478]

>>11896476
you actually wont stop thinking even if you think you do not think. Or are you serious?

[Anonymous No.11896482]

>>11896476
>Just like any other spiritual crap it tells you to stop thinking
False on numerous accounts. I don't know of any spiritual crap that tells you to stop thinking and meditation especially is about thinking.

[Anonymous No.11896500]

>>11896476
you seem very angry. have you tried meditation ?

[Anonymous No.11896554]

>>11896482
Dude sounds like an arrogant retard but all the tutorials on jewtube tell you to stop thinking and caring about your environment. Which, if it's for a short time, is a good thing anyways because perspective and distancing from problems usually helps solving them ,but still.

[Anonymous No.11896571]

>>11896482
>>11896478
What? Isn't meditation exactly about clearing your thoughts by focusing on your breathing or something else simple? If not, how is it any different from just closing your eyes and allowing your thoughts to wander? And don't tell me that's meditation, that's just thinking.

[Anonymous No.11896577]

>>11896571
I would tell you how to do it but you are not ready. Non-stop realizations would turn you insane.

[Anonymous No.11896590]

>>11896577
Well, I've done a great deal of thinking about stuff such as the nature of the self, persistence of identity, etc etc philosophical stuff. But meditation? What is it even?

I'd be interested to hear what you mean by meditation, since it's a term that seemingly means entirely different things to different people.

[Anonymous No.11896595]

>>11896571
>Isn't meditation exactly about clearing your thoughts by focusing on your breathing or something else simple? If not, how is it any different from just closing your eyes and allowing your thoughts to wander?
you have answered your own question. focusing your thoughts on a single, very simple task is the opposite of letting your thoughts to wander.

[Anonymous No.11896597]

>>11896595
Well, focusing your thoughts on one thing _is_ clearing your thoughts. If you just think about breathing, your mind doesn't differ much from unconsciousness.

[Anonymous No.11896612]

>>11896597
>If you just think about breathing, your mind doesn't differ much from unconsciousness.
it's actually the exact opposite of unconsciousness

[Anonymous No.11896624]

>>11896590
Let's just say thought is extremely limited. Logical process is even more limited, so are words. When you meditate and i mean true mediation you understand by your whole being.

[Anonymous No.11896682]

>>11896590
When you are meditating you are strengthening the internal feedback loop, letting the superfluous fall away, getting closer to the source

>>11896597
Think think, mind mind. You are completely in identification with your mind, a typical western symptom.
>your mind doesn't differ much from unconsciousness
Can the mind be conscious? Are you your mind? Without the mind, are you still conscious? The mind is just a module on top of that witnesser. You're not the body, not the mind, not your sensations, or feelings, there's a watcher of all those things, something up the river that you can get closer to, but never behold in itself. The perceiver can't perceive itself, but it can perceive the form, the feeling, perception, mental formations. Even while asleep, you're still alive
Take a deep breath, and breathe all the air out. You'll find that you can keep squeezing air out even when you wheezed out as much as you can, you can still struggle to push out a tiny amount of air, less and less but still quite a lot more than one would expect.
Meditation is like that, let it all fall away, past what you think is possible i e even past what you identify with. You can be attached to the mind and say "I am the mind!" but when you're not thinking you still "are"

[Anonymous No.11896698]

>>11896682
What is this perceiver? Well, it's just where subjective experiences happen. Why is the perceiver important? It's neutral, it's not unique between people. The thing that perceives my experiences is identical to the thing that perceives somebody else's experiences. So no, I don't accept that this perceiver is "me", or in any way holds that much value to me. What's valuable to me is, well, me. The thoughts, memories and personality that make me unique. Meditation seeks to rid me of all that, so why should I consider it valuable? I don't buy all this eastern "we are all one" mumbo jumbo, it's clearly in conflict my actions and intuitions (and yours too, btw). Claiming that the self doesn't exist or that it's just a neutral perceiver is dishonest - if you really believed that, you wouldn't mind killing yourself right now since that perceiver continues existing in other people.

[Anonymous No.11896702]

Certain kinds, yeah. Meditation is a catchall term for a lot of things. Many have empirical backing behind them. Wim Hof, for example, independently recreated Tummo (A meditative practice that can be used to raise the internal body temperature, although that's actually secondary to cultivate of spiritual energies).

Likewise, concentration meditation is a part of many traditions (even the Christian one), and has been demonstrated to improve concentration. Mindfulness has a whole bunch of benefits, although I should ask you to be careful with that because there's a sect of "Secular Buddhists" trying to make Mindfulness Meditation into something that Buddhism isn't (tl;dr do meditation so you can wagecuck for 24 hours a day and not hate it; Buddhism explicitly disagrees with this idea).

[Anonymous No.11896704]

>>11896698
The self exists. Anyone who denies deny is pushing some sort of dishonest agenda.

[Anonymous No.11896715]

>>11896704
Evidence?

[Anonymous No.11896755]

>>11896715
What do you want, a blob of self you can hold?

[Anonymous No.11896769]

>>11896755
Sure, yeah. Or evidence that there's some single discrete non-composite particle whose existence marks a thing as a Self.

[Anonymous No.11896777]

>>11896769
So you're a physicalist retard. See Rene Descartes's argument, the mind is not matter.

[Anonymous No.11896782]

>>11896777
No, I'm not. I'm asking you to find me a single thing that isn't made up of anything else that makes a thing a thing (this is a Self). You believe this to be the case, so I want to hear what you believe. I know what Descarte's believes, and I don't really care, because I'm not talking to him.

[Anonymous No.11896785]

>>11896782
Experiences, and the self, composed of them in some way, exist. Descartes proved this. No, you won't find any particle that's the self in the physical world. What would it even look like? What would make a blob of matter be the self?

[Anonymous No.11896786]

>>11896777
So you can show a mind that's not made up of matter?

[Anonymous No.11896789]

>>11896777
Mind is literally matter. Thought is created throught all that shit in brain.

[Anonymous No.11896799]

>>11896786
Uh, any mind. It's by definition not matter. I won't waste my time arguing with retards, since there will always be countless more of you, people who never spent one minute thinking about the subject. Read up on Descartes or the hard problem of consciousness before trying again.
>>11896789

[Anonymous No.11896806]

>>11896799
So you can't find a mind that's not connected to matter in some way?

[Anonymous No.11896809]

>>11896698
It seems that you value truth. Why would idiosyncrasies developing on top of someones essence lead to a life more true than without it? Surely, the removal of subjectivity approaches more objectivity.

Regardless, all of your arguments stem from an assumption of the truth of the conclusion, that you are your mind. Remember, you believe this, I don't, at least not to the same degree.
You don't accept that you are the perceiver, translation: your ego doesn't accept that it's not in charge.
>What's valuable to me is, well, me
What's valuable to the ego is the ego? Ohh, interesting, new.
>The thoughts, memories and personality that make me unique
Certainly, your mind is one of a kind, and so are your experiences and the pattern of behaviour that has shaped your mind. They won't disappear if you take distance or stop identification, they will still be in association to you for better or worse. What can happen if you stop identification is that your future pattern of behaviour becomes radically different and carries the forms to a different shape, when you choose to engage with them. I can engage with a car without believing I am the car.
>Meditation seeks to rid me of all that, so why should I consider it valuable
Meditation is not an actor. I'm an actor, you're an actor, meditation is a method to be used by actors. It doesn't hold a value judgement or a will to take you somewhere, it's your own value judgement, it's your own will that takes you somewhere. Meditation is strengthening the feedback process of your own will shaping its direction. 400 hours in, some common results are inevitable for most humans, because below everything else, below the skandhas, we are similar.
>and yours, too
Again, you're assuming that the way you identify as an independent actor that needs to strengthen its own interests holds true for me as well. What I'm advocating is to let the borders between what is you and what is not you disintegrate

[Anonymous No.11896810]

>>11896806
being connected to matter /= being matter

[Anonymous No.11896812]

>>11896799
>the dualist
>calling anyone else a retard
So how do these floating disembodied minds interact with the world, given that the physical world cannot interact with them? I'd consider that a good point, given that Descartes himself brought this up and said he thought it made his whole theory hogwash.

[Anonymous No.11896814]

>>11896812
Panpsychism. There, solved it.

[Anonymous No.11896821]

>if you really believed that, you wouldn't mind killing yourself right now
To use the body to wake up to the truth of what you are, that's purpose. Not to waste this life. Discover what is already here, but what seems to be covered up by our ideas of what we are.
It's actually my belief that I will never live again after this life. I don't believe in rebirth, I believe in destruction. To be alive then, it's even more unbelievable right?

[Anonymous No.11896833]

By the way, to the people leaning with or against Descartes in this thread. "I think, therefore I am". It's not the end all be all. The mind is not primary. Better would be, "I am conscious, therefore I am".

[Anonymous No.11896835]

>>11896809
>What's valuable to the ego is the ego? Ohh, interesting, new.
Never said otherwise. Without me, my ego, what am I? Nothing. Why would I want to be nothing, essentially stop existing, die? I can "experience" death or neutral perception everywhere outside of my ego, I don't want to substitute my ego with it too - at least persistently, as some buddhists seem to want to. I value myself as an actor with unique charasteristics, not as a neutral perceiver.
>Certainly, your mind is one of a kind, and so are your experiences and the pattern of behaviour that has shaped your mind. They won't disappear if you take distance or stop identification, they will still be in association to you for better or worse. What can happen if you stop identification is that your future pattern of behaviour becomes radically different and carries the forms to a different shape, when you choose to engage with them. I can engage with a car without believing I am the car.
Now this seems like a good idea - taking a step back, analyzing your nature. But it's only valuable if I can connect it to my ego through memory or wisdom.
>Meditation is not an actor.
Semantics
>What I'm advocating is to let the borders between what is you and what is not you disintegrate
But this means losing the ego, myself. It's rightfully called ego death. It's fun if you can do it momentarily, but persistent ego death is also death.

>>11896821
>Not to waste this life
What would be wasting a life if there is no ego having it? Why would the life even matter? There's only meaning in things through the eyes of the ego. A neutral perceiver doesn't assign value to things, not even life.
>To be alive then, it's even more unbelievable right?
Yep and I wanna make the most of it

[Anonymous No.11896840]

>>11896476
Based!
Meditationfags SEETHING

[Anonymous No.11896868]

>>11896835
So be it, you identify with the ego and nothing I say will change it, only your own experience outside those bounds could give food for the alternative.
I will give you an analogy as a tip.
New gymgoers will hesitate towards working out, because they are scared of getting too buff. Experienced gymgoers will say, don't worry, you won't get buff on accident. If you notice you start getting buff, then stop working out. Start out with the assumption that in the end nothing will happen on accident and that you remain in control. It's much more difficult than you imagine, to get results. It requires scrutinizing attention, second by second, for a very long time. Any arrogance will be tested. If you don't want to arrive, believe me don't worry about it.

>There's only meaning in things through the eyes of the ego. A neutral perceiver doesn't assign value to things, not even life.
My experience is the opposite. And I even remember having the same belief as you. What got me through it was assuming that I was completely wrong, if only for gruesome seconds at a time, in itself a test. To get past the ego, it does feel like dying, because you're beating fear of death itself. I believe in complete irretrievable destruction of life, yet I'm not very afraid of death, I only sense a slight fear of death when I've gotten very close to it.
With fewer ideals, with less identification, with less attachment, you appreciate the meaning of the meaningless, of each moment by itself without expectation for the next. Integrate that, second by second, logical man, you will find a nice life. To be in constant misery over a goalpost 8 years from now, constantly shifting, that's tragedy.

[Anonymous No.11896894]

>>11896868
>So be it, you identify with the ego and nothing I say will change it, only your own experience outside those bounds could give food for the alternative.
Well, it's not like my worldview is fixed, just takes a convincing argument and some time digesting to change it. But almost everything is subjective and we're entitled to our differing viewpoints, that's fine and good
>New gymgoers
If this is an analogy of meditation then fine - I don't say meditation can't be good, because the things you can take with you when you "snap out of it" are good. I occasionally do it to relax, but it's not a goal in and of itself to me.

>With fewer ideals, with less identification, with less attachment, you appreciate the meaning of the meaningless
Hmm, there are some good points here. Stressing over distant things or arbitrary goals is not a great idea, and most people dedicate their lives on such pointless things. But don't you still need to stress to some degree if you want to survive? If you thought you were entirely equal to a neutral bundle of primal experiences, then not even survival would be valuable, it would all just _be_. That's what I don't wanna accept - life like that exists somewhere outside of me already, so I can't be the same as it. Otherwise why would I value things or want to keep improving and living? I don't see any meaning in meaningless, that's just fancy talk to me. What do you think about this urge to keep living even after you accept the buddhist worldview?

[Anonymous No.11896910]

I do the sam harris waking up app.
Seems pretty sciencey and no spiritual bs.

[Anonymous No.11896931]

>>11896894
People can be at different levels. Some say that one approaches enlightenent asymptotically, getting closer, but not arriving. I'm certainly not enlightened, I'm here, I'm attached, I'm using the values and methods of the mind to communicate.

Werner Hertzog made a film named Grizzly Man. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWA7GtDmNFU
He really loved those grizzlys, but he got eaten by them. Not for any purpose, just because he didn't use his mind, he was all love, but no logic. He probably didn't consider death, that nature is not his lovey dovey friend, there is a reality which has rules and destruction.

On the other spectrum we have love and death, unified with awareness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sattva
A monk walks in the forest. A starving tigress will be forced to eat her babies. The monk sacrifices himself, his body becomes food for the tigress such that she and her babies won't suffer and die. The monks own death and suffering doesn't mean anything to the monk, he is at a very very high level.

>Otherwise why would I value things or want to keep improving and living
I can't help you, by extension this is identification and fear of death, you can only get past it by assuming falsity and seeing it clearly from the other side. You can return if you wish to, it's easy to take a step backwards.

As for the meaning in the meaningless. When I sit on the porch, hearing the wind, seeing the light, the beautiful nature all around me, the trees swaying, the birds flying, a deer beholding me and I it, the light penetrating and revealing the glowing cells and nerve looking structure of the grape leaves, I'm not moving towards anything, not thinking, and I'm not necessarilly neurochemically happy or satisfied, but I experience second by second a deep connection with the present moment, which is much more meaningful than where ideals can take me, in fact ideals today may cause regret tomorrow
10 year old you, which ideals then held up even today

[Anonymous No.11896934]

>>11896910
Certainly an introduction, don't take everything at face value however. For example, some people listening to Sam Harris suddenly believe there is no free will, because they trust Sam on this. I believe there is free will, and Sam didn't present a rigorous case for his position

[Anonymous No.11896948]

>>11896571
Different schools teach different things but many say you should sit symmetrically, with your eyes closed. Your insides are not symmetric, so consider this.

[Anonymous No.11896950]

>>11896934
That is something I have seen him argue about with dennett but I have never seen it once come up in his app in any way

[Anonymous No.11896961]

>>11896948
I want to make hot, passionaate sex to that woman. Seeing them in military uniforms makes me so horny. They think they're hot shit but in reality she's just a woman, as weak as any. I want her to be surprised by my strength.

[Anonymous No.11896970]

>>11896961

[Anonymous No.11896975]

>>11896950
I heard it very early, I don't know how the app changed since then anyhow

[Anonymous No.11896981]

>>11896931
>Werner Hertzog made a film named Grizzly Man.
Huh, seems like he was ok accepting that risk. That's fine, you must've seen those Russians climbing on abandoned buildings with GoPros too.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Sattva
I wouldn't sacrifice myself to save another though. At least not just anybody. Life is full of cruelty and ugliness as well as the "good" things. And I'm not some utilitarist - each life is an "universe", you can't just perform arithmetics like 5 > 1 on it.

>10 year old you, which ideals then held up even today
So much different than me that he's dead at this point. I'm not him anymore. In that sense I can accept the "persistence is an illusion" argument of buddhists, but the me from yesterday certainly is relevant to me, so I won't go as far as to say all personal identity is illusion.

[Anonymous No.11897013]

>>11896981
The you of today, is he relevant to the you in 50 years?
Short circuit the process.
There's no need to be a slave.

[Anonymous No.11897014]

>>11896462
At the very basic, (mindfulness) meditation is just a simple concentration training. No philosophy, no ideology, no mantras. Just like pushups, there's no philosophizing paying attention your breathing.

Ofcourse (mindfulness) meditation is more than just that. Physical concentration is just the tip of the iceberg in mental acuity. The real goal of (mindfulness) meditation is to understand what is happening with your mind as you form thoughts/feel emotions, as your mind wanders. You're supposed to understand how the mind works and how your emotions pass by in your mind. You're supposed to pay attention/understand the fact we grasp some of those emotions/thoughts and cling to them as if they matter. Going deeper, you're supposed to understand holding on to these emotions/feelings/thoughts harm you more than the initial emotions themselves.

[Anonymous No.11897020]

>>11896462
It depends. It can definitely make things feel more peaceful. It's not magic, sometimes just sitting still and letting things pass is all we need to let stress decipate

[Anonymous No.11897032]

>>11897013
>The you of today, is he relevant to the you in 50 years?
Not very much at least

[Anonymous No.11897055]

>>11897032
Start with 10 breaths

[Anonymous No.11897098]

>>11896970
does she a penus?

[Anonymous No.11897105]

>>11896462
Depends what you expect to get out of it.
You're basically training your mind to go into a free flow state at will.
Also its encouraging you to do proper breathing cycles out of habit.

[Anonymous No.11897127]

>>11896476
Do not listen to this retard. OP asked a question about the validity of meditation and there is a lot of peer reviewed solid research backing up many of the benefits of mindfulness meditation (when people in the west talk about meditation, they usually mean mindfulness meditation). Instead this anon doesn't even mention the scientific findings but instead makes unfounded claims. Not being aware of the existing research is okay. However making claims that contradict the research, then calling the people who disagree stupid and saying they don't think enough is ironic. I'm sure you're thinking all the time anon, but it does not seem to have done you any good. Turning the answer to a question that has nothing to do with intelligence into a rant about how others are so stupid (and implying you're so intelligent) is a sign that you're overcompensating some insecurity or bottled up anger or simply being arrogant.

BTW there is a form of meditation specifically about thinking in a very concentrated manner about something, its called analytical meditation.

[Anonymous No.11897246]

>>11896476
you are correct

[Anonymous No.11897274]

>>11897246
sam harris is no midwit

[eedm No.11897348]

I think many deal with trauma with the help of meditation, to know that you merely exist is a stepping stone out of automatic consciousness, then what, In the martinist doctrine the next level of consciousness after automatic and self awareness is christ consciousness, If you are unaware of the 3rd stage, how would you attain it?

[Anonymous No.11897350]

>>11897274
you're right, charlatan would be more accurate

[Anonymous No.11897384]

>>11896682
Screenshotting for later reference

[Anonymous No.11897394]

Didn't read the autism itt but you guys should try meditation, it can be fun and trippy (not to the same extent as drugs, of course)

[Anonymous No.11897419]

>>11897350
>buthurt jesus boy is detect

[Anonymous No.11897754]

>>11897419
Jesus was an jew

[Anonymous No.11897780]

>>11896571
How is focusing on something different from not focusing on anything?
Idk retard, maybe try THINKING about it for half a second instead of writing a comment?

[Anonymous No.11897783]

>>11896476
>RELAXING AND CLEARING YOUR MIND BAAAAAD

[Anonymous No.11897835]

>>11896894
You’re both overthinking it. I just want to meditate to improve my concentration and avoid being overwhelmed by reflexive emotion

[Anonymous No.11898229]

>>11896948
I laughed because I misread this as "many say you should shit symmetrically"

[Anonymous No.11898322]

>>11896462
it just werks

[Anonymous No.11898338]

OOOOOOWWWWWWWWMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM

[Anonymous No.11898352]

>>11898338
i just OOM all day

[Anonymous No.11898356]

>>11896471
Probably was on heavy doses of opium. Americans imported heroin during the Vietnam War.

[Anonymous No.11898502]

focus on the toe

[Anonymous No.11898546]

>>11898356
They say he didn't move a muscle or utter a sound.
and when the fire stopped his whole body was charcoal, but his heart was unscathed

[Anonymous No.11898550]

>>11898352
Vishuddha chakra

[Anonymous No.11898587]

>>11896471
>>11896970
She have a muscle

[Anonymous No.11898731]

>>11896462
just a cheap way to trip, like sensory deprivation or lucid dreaming

[Anonymous No.11900109]

Bump

[Anonymous No.11900125]

>Summertime: The Thread

[Anonymous No.11900137]

>>11896476
>Even though they like to be arrogant to pretend they're smart
oh the irony
why are you projecting this hard

[Anonymous No.11901532]

>>11896462
Thanks for the reminder op
I am going to fire up my "Waking Up'' app right now and listen to the smooth sweet ASMR sound of Sam Harris

[Anonymous No.11901547]

>>11901532
based

[Anonymous No.11903388]

Its real

[Anonymous No.11903399]

>>11898731
lsd is under £3 a tab and lasts 12 hours if you go 200ug

[Anonymous No.11903976]

>>11896769
>Or evidence that there's some single discrete non-composite particle whose existence marks a thing as a Self.
This is not required for the self to have ontological existence.