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2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/sci/ - Science & Math

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11776874 No.11776874[DELETED]  [Reply] [Original]

How do engineers working in the defense industry reconcile with the fact that the weapons and targeting systems they design are killing a shit ton of innocents?

>> No.11776890

>>11776874
Aerospace engineer working at defense company. I couldn't care less about where my missiles point.

>> No.11776891

>>11776874
By feeling based

>> No.11776893

>>11776874
How do you reconcile the fact that your taxes pay for the weapons?

>> No.11776898

>>11776893
I'm required by law to pay taxes, engineers aren't required by law to work in the defense industry.

>> No.11776910

>>11776898
You could quit your job and live as a hobo paying no taxes. No one is forcing you to, you want stuff and are willing to cope by saying you are being forced to do it.

>> No.11776912

>>11776874
it pays money

>> No.11777027

>>11776874
Would make me feel pretty good to know its working actually

>> No.11777033

>>11776898
Show the law.

>> No.11777049

>>11776890
>>11777027
came here to say these

>> No.11777053

Jooz use their holobunga card to excuse any consequences for the Palestinian child blood they demand.

>> No.11777058

>>11776874
They never kill innocents :^)

>> No.11777096

>>11776874
If I build a toaster is it my fault that someone drops it in the bathtub to kill themselves?

>> No.11777113

>>11776874
Because, Americas enemies are my enemies

>> No.11777181

>>11776874
How do engineers in any industry reconcile with the fact that their designs will likely go on to kill people and ruin lives?

>> No.11777193

>>11776874
Like how gay people reconcile with the fact they might pozz innocent people. This is a perfect ANALogy. They don't. The curriculum robs them of their soul. As does extensive anal fisting.

>> No.11777227

>>11777033
What, you think tax evasion isn't a fucking crime now?

>> No.11777237

why yes I love killing civvies with thaads how could you tell?

>> No.11777267

>>11776874
I feel kind of pity that they ended up in the way of progress, but omelettes and eggs gotta do what they do you know.

>> No.11777289

>>11776874
Gotta excise cultural tumors somehow. War isn't going away, but at least it's becoming more precise.

>> No.11777292

>>11776874
dont really care if, if they work i feel good no matter how many people died beacouse of my making

>> No.11777295

>>11776874
>When ze rockets go up
>Who cares where zey come down
>That's not my department
>Says Werner Von Braun

>> No.11777297

>>11777181
no not all engeniers

>> No.11777303

>>11777096

Bad analogy. Toasters aren't meant to kill. In answer to the OP's question, everything is possible and all is permitted to preserve the American state and white life. The only impediment is judgment, ethnomasochism. This is what the ficitonal character Walt Kurtz understood.

>> No.11777306

>>11776874
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21pHDeJrIyc
>Innocents.

>> No.11777318

>>11777295
funny jew piano man haha

>> No.11777323

>>11776874
By the fact that I'm having sex and you're not.

>> No.11777380

>>11776910
That is a bit extreme since you don't pay income tax until you earn more than 12,000 a year officially and property taxes don't go to missiles.

Also, in most cities, you actually are legally forced to not live as a hobo due to anti-homelessness legislation and there are numerous things that human don't just want, but actually need to survive.

>>11777096
It is if you fail to put a warning that the toaster is an electrocution hazard and is not meant to be dropped in a bathtub or any other body of water, but purposeful destruction of property and life are a missile's primary intended purposes.

>>11777181
By spending a majority of the design phase and budget on testing and safety.

>> No.11777421

>>11776874
They're killing machines that are doing the job it was designed to do. Kill yourself.

>> No.11777444

>>11776874

People will find a way to kill each other no matter what, even if that means returning to pointy sticks.

>> No.11777668

>>11776874
Better someone else's innocent than our own innocents.

>> No.11777676

>>11776898
All you're doing is passing the responsibility to someone else, now that looks more like a selfish way to protect your self identity from negative effects of your prospect career. You could say we should not have any military, but then you pass the buck to the entire country. If the country gets ravaged by war, deaths of hundreds of million would-be the result.

Each person should think of their moral duty to defend their country men as long as other tribes exists. For failure to do so, would result in destruction of ones tribe.
War is not an option, it's part of life.

>> No.11777678

>>11776874
Aerospace engineer here.
Stay spooked. I could care less.

>> No.11777697

>>11776874
By calling it defence.
Its not their problem that some general ordered to level some village in afganistan.

>> No.11777699

>>11777678
>could care less
I doubt you've finished high school

>> No.11777704

>>11776874
>they design are killing a shit ton of innocents?
But that's the awesome part...

>> No.11777716

>>11777227
I would say it’s smart

>> No.11777736

>>11777444
>checked
pointy sticks result in far less collateral damage.

>> No.11777738

bad analogies or ignorant bullshit, this is all you will get as an answer.

>> No.11777792

>>11776874
Aerospace engineer working on a commercial project here. There's been a lot of pressure at my company to get a clearance due the slowdown in commercial production, but I'd rather be fired than work on a defense project. It's true that choosing to not work in defense won't necessarily save lives, after all, they'll just hire someone else, and either way, any one engineer is just one cog in a huge machine, and it's up to some general to use such a weapon anyway. It's also true that not working in defense doesn't free you from guilt, as your tax money funds it anyways.

However, there's an important question that's often left unexamined: what will be the impact on you personally? Will working on a weapon of war day in and day out help turn you into the sort of person you want to be? I decided that it wouldn't. I'm pretty good at what I do, so I don't think I'll be let go, but if I can't keep a job in commercial work, I'll go learn to program or something.

>> No.11777797 [DELETED] 

>>11776874
how do you reconcile your tax dollars are going towards it

>> No.11778109
File: 15 KB, 304x351, 1560985139031.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11778109

>>11776893
Citizens are forced to at gunpoint by the military and police they finance.

>> No.11778118

>>11776893
They point the guns made by the engineers at us.

>> No.11778128

>>11778118
>implying he would fight back if they were only swords or some shit

>> No.11778144

>>11776874
>targeting systems they design are killing a shit ton of innocents?
relative resource usage, innocent children in Africa, sweat shops and pollution. yeah combine those and in some order and you have your hypocrisy

>> No.11778161

>>11776874
I write software which has military applications and I own stock in RTX so I can feel like I'm taking part in every missile that hits a third world mudhut.
Peace and passivity is for the weak.

>> No.11778165

>why does [x person/group] do [y bad thing]
https://youtu.be/ETxmCCsMoD0?t=47

>> No.11778169

Why focus on weapons killing innocents when the fact remains that the weapons produced also save many innocent lives?

This argument is literally Let's-get-rid-of-police BLM-tier retardation. Sure police brutality is a horrible thing and unfairly targets blacks more than anyone else, but police is still an absolutely essential element to a lawful and civilized society.

Asking engineers who develop these weapons and machines if they feel like murderers is just about one of those most petty, pathetic things I've witnessed.

>> No.11778187

>>11778169
If they wanted to save or serve lives they wouldn't be making weapons.

>> No.11778193

>>11778187
>you have to be at least 18 to post here

>> No.11778196

>>11778187
Through all of human history, making a nice thing and not defending it with weapons has lead to other humans taking your nice thing with the use of weapons. "Just be peaceful bro" is not a stable solution.

>> No.11778208

>>11778161
you deserve to die. i hope you suffer immensely

>> No.11778216

>>11777792
Guy thinking of into aerospace for college here. What things to keep in mind when into the study? How oversaturated is it, and how much in demand?

>> No.11778218

>>11778208
Says the man who has benefitted massively from secure international trade lines and stability outside a few countries which are kept in check with the threat and demonstration of extreme firepower.

>> No.11778219

>>11778187
this is a strawman
I never stated that the engineers desire to save human lives, they obviously desire to work with technology you dipshit

but they also aren't murderers because some of the weapons they helped develop end up killing innocents

>> No.11778229

>>11776874
there's no such thing as peaceful technologies. Anything can be subverted into killing people, it all depends on the user. On the same token, killing machines can be used as a deterrent to prevent loss of life. If the argument is going to be about the morality behind it, then it's a failed argument to begin with. Even the first tools of stone could be used to kill people more effectively than fists. Therefore it's pointless to think in terms of morality behind inventing or creating things instead of how they're used

>> No.11778239

>>11778128
I'm a big guy, pretty sure they couldn't take my money during the paleolithic

>> No.11778254

>>11776874
It's pretty easy for humans to disassociate their actions from the consequences if there consequences are very apparent and difficult to tune out. No one talks about American use if white phosphorus on civilians around the water cooler or at the 4th of July picnic.

>> No.11778283

>>11778219
>some
Most. The US kills 9 civilians for every terrorist they kill. Kind of takes the piss out of the utilitarian calculus you're doing.

>> No.11778347

>>11778254
There isn't even anything wrong with white phosphorus. It's a shitty incendiary unless you dump tons of it, and it's a reasonably good smoke screen. If you're wasting it on trying to burn people, you're a retard. Use explosives for that.

>> No.11778369

>>11776910
Strange, you want to change society yet you participate in it as well tier argument
>>11777096
Your toaster wasn't designed to kill, in fact it probably went through multiple stages of safety testing to prevent as much harm as possible.
>>11777113
Patriotism is cringe
>>11777306
Yes, your single video really proves that their are no innocents in Syria. Dude shut the fuck up lol
>>11777676
Patriotism is gay, being part of my tribe doesn't make my tribe right.
>>11777792
Nothing more based then staying firm on your moral beliefs.
>>11778144
>relative resource usage
This is an Inevitable part of living in America
>innocent children in Africa
What about innocent children in Africa?
>Sweatshops and pollution
I actively avoid brands that I know participate in sweatshops, and I myself can't do anything to stop pollution until the companies or government enact policies to combat pollution. Of coursed an organized strike against polluting companies may make them stop, but most people that care about pollution won't protest these companies.
>>11778169
>Why ignore that the main purpose of these weapons are for killing innocents or trading them to Israel so they can kill innocents even though they do save some lives.

>> No.11778415

>>11776874
Bruh ive worked on shit thats probably part of some 10000 compnent thing watching and listening to us right now.

>> No.11778416

>>11776874
weapons systems do slivers harm in times of peace, but they prevent all-out war.

or atleast thats the case for advanced weapons systems which are designed for combat with other advanced systems.

people who make landmines and small arms should be gased tho.

>> No.11778429

>>11778283
>The US kills 9 civilians for every terrorist they kill.
source?

>> No.11778441

>>11778239
for you you may be. But when Gorak and his ten Neanderthal goons come to collect his pelts we will see who really is
>>11778369
>This is an Inevitable part of living in America
no it isn't live off grid or just move out of america

>> No.11778461

>>11778369
>I myself can't do anything to stop pollution
yes you can, you can decrease your consumption. They produce because you consume
>What about innocent children in Africa?
it's a stand in for all the less fortunate who starve while you instead spend money on iphones or die early because of the factory that makes them. They are a stand in for all of those that pollution of your excessive and unsustainable consumption will harm. How can you keep doing it knowing innocents will die from it?

>> No.11778507

>>11776874
They don't care. They think it's funny. I saw people go from working on spirit and opportunity to working on land warrior and they just cracked jokes about it. Genuine humanity and empathy in people is extraordinarily rare.

>> No.11778550

>>11778441
>Live off grid
>I have to throw away all public amenities to criticize anything immoral
Ok dude, that means you can't critic anything you believe is wrong because you do wrong things too
>>11778461
>yes you can, you can decrease your consumption. They produce because you consume
Read my post again retard, their is no point in decreasing my consumption because no one else will. Now if their was a world wide movement that had major traction that promoted the boycotting of these companies then I would have no excuse. But at this moment, it's profitable for these companies to continue polluting and me not consuming doesn't stop it at all.
>it's a stand in for all the less fortunate who starve while you instead spend money on iphones
>you literally can't buy anything other then the bare necessities for survival because someone is starving in another country.
>or die early because of the factory that makes them
I'm convinced that you didn't read my post, I actively avoid companies that I know use workshops.
>They are a stand in for all of those that pollution of your excessive and unsustainable consumption will harm.
>Acting like you have no involvement in the unsustainable consumption
>Acting like a single person can stop this
Nice try dude, the only way you can stop this is through government intervention, or mass boycotts of companies that promote this unsustainable consumption, and neither are happening lol.
>How can you keep doing it knowing innocents will die from it?
Doing what? Buying things? It's like you haven't read my post at all. I try my utmost to only buy from ethical companies, and when I make a mistake, I don't mind because it's impossible to perfectly follow your morals.

>> No.11778558
File: 12 KB, 500x500, 1386236739960.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11778558

>>11776874
>brownies
>innocent

>> No.11778561

>>11776874
I work at an AI/machine learning software dev company and there are things that don't sit right with me, like using burning man drone footage to train a data set on how to identify people and vehicles in a desert, but you just have to tell your boss ahead of time that you don't want to work on shit like that

>> No.11778564

>>11778558
Yes.

>> No.11778580

>>11778507
If this humanity you're speaking of is rare among humans, can it really be called humanity ?

>> No.11778582
File: 44 KB, 834x556, 1523945956979.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11778582

>>11778564
FACT:
Western civilization is objectively superior to other civilizations, moraly, economically, scientifically, and politically. The destruction of the enemies of western civilization is objectively moral, even when "innocent" people are killed.

>> No.11778590

>>11777699
I couldn't care less is redundant and itself is a nonsensical statement because one can always care less. If you could not care any less, you wouldn't respond in the first place making your statement rhetorical dressing rather than any explicit truth.

>> No.11778594

>>11778550
>no point in decreasing my consumption because no one else will.
exactly if you don't work for a defense contractor than someone else will so there is no point of not doing it

>> No.11778597

>>11778550
>Doing what?
For example in the usa
> At today's level of consumption, the average newborn infant will need a lifetime supply of 800 pounds of lead, 750 pounds of zinc, 1,500 pounds of copper, 3,593 pounds of aluminum, 32,700 pounds of iron, 26,550 pounds of clays, 28,213 pounds of salt, and 1,238,101 pounds of stone, sand, gravel, and cement.
That is a lot of minerals that mining is destroying the environment. If you didn't waste so much consuming things you don't really need it would be less of an impact. If everyone lived like say the average American we would need several earths worth of resources.

>> No.11778642

>>11778550
> no point in decreasing my consumption because no one else will.
If you are from a first world country, most people on this planet already live well below your rate of consumption. YOU are the problem not everyone else. It is YOU that refuses to stop consuming, not everyone else. YOU just don't see this because YOU are surrounded by your tiny world elite that also refuses to stop consuming, using eachother as an excuse to continue your reckless consumption.

>> No.11778679

>>11778594
To be fair, I started this post as bait so it wasn't really thought out.
>>11778597
Please post proof for what you are saying.
>>11778642
>people on this planet already live well below your rate of consumption.
True, most people on this planet are living under poverty. This doesn't justify nor demonize my rate of consumption lol.
>YOU are the problem not everyone else. It is YOU that refuses to stop consuming, not everyone else. YOU just don't see this because YOU are surrounded by your tiny world elite that also refuses to stop consuming, using each other as an excuse to continue your reckless consumption.
Sorry dude, I feel no reason to stop my consumption because me stopping my consumption doesn't help anything. It would literally just be me cucking myself. If I stopped "Consumption" the rest of the "global elite" (First time I've ever heard anyone refer to U.S. Citizens as global elite lol) would continue, rendering my decision to stop useless.

>> No.11778693

>>11776874
All those poor schoolchildren killed by patriot missiles...

>> No.11778757

By, like my High School's CS teacher, finding new work.
Timid woman probably programmed a child-seeking munition or something.

>> No.11778759

>>11778582
>kill afghani kids cuz
>burgar :D

>> No.11778776
File: 82 KB, 624x1550, _83647604_ecological-footprint-by-country.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11778776

>>11778679
>Please post proof for what you are saying.
https://www.usgs.gov/faqs/how-large-a-lifetime-supply-minerals-average-person?qt-news_science_products=0#qt-news_science_products
> I feel no reason to stop my consumption because me stopping my consumption doesn't help anything.
>rendering my decision to stop useless.
if you spent the money from the iphone you "need" on donating to give to the approximately 9 million people die of world hunger each year according to world hunger statistics. It may save several lives. Are their innocent lives nothing to you?
>To be fair, I started this post as bait so it wasn't really thought out.
I assumed so and am to a degree aswell. I don't think you are an evil global elite. The point was more that almost noone is a completely "moral" operator so cherry picking someone who works for a defensive contractor isn't a very fair for such a multifaceted ethical issue. We unfortunately don't live in a world that is safe without weapons.

>> No.11778786

>>11776874
I got into aerospace primarily because I love weapons development. No need to justify anything.

>> No.11778812

>>11778776
>if you spent the money from the iphone you "need" on donating to give to the approximately 9 million people die of world hunger each year according to world hunger statistics. It may save several lives.
I feel we need to make a distinction between saving and prolonging. You aren't saving them from their circumstances you're just prolonging their life in the circumstance. I personally believe the "prolonging" is morally positive, but their is an argument to be made that it's the opposite.
>The point was more that almost noone is a completely "moral" operator so cherry picking someone who works for a defensive contractor isn't a very fair for such a multifaceted ethical issue.
I do believe that no one is a "completely moral operator", however this doesn't mean you can't point out the immoral actions. If this were true, no one could point out bad actions.
>We unfortunately don't live in a world that is safe without weapons.
True, but just because an evil is necessary doesn't make it morally positive.

Also if we're being honest, I would take a defense contractors.

>> No.11778832
File: 199 KB, 350x442, 1506631420480.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11778832

>>11776874
Bros, how do I break into the industry, make money, set up my own Weapons Firm that will create crazy weapons, then open a PMC and then try to take over the world?!

>> No.11778868

>>11778832
Maybe work on something very specialized.
Optics is very big at the moment particularly in small arms.

>> No.11778876

>>11778868
But I wanna build killer robots with rayguns! ut seriously, I have no idea what to do. I'm studying Physics and don't know where I'm going. I figured something like that would allow you to climb the ladder in all sectors.

>> No.11778908

>>11778876
You’ll need some sort of engineering background to actually do much in weapons beyond research projects.

>> No.11778919

>>11778908
So I should major in engineering then? The problem's "what's next". How do you even get a job there? It's not like I'm graduating from MIT.

>> No.11778958

>>11778919
Depending on how far along in your physics curriculum you are, maybe look into getting a master’s in some sort of engineering discipline. Physics+engineering can be a decent combination depending on the focus of your physics degree.

>> No.11778983

>>11778958
I'm not American, it's just general Physics courses and during the last year you choose whether you want to focus on Theoretical, Meteorology, Engineering, and some other stuff. I lost soem Semesters, so I'm nearing the time of choosing now.

>> No.11778984

>>11776874
Aero guy here it is a feature for some guys that out shit is better than what other teams can get working also collateral victims have drastically reduced due to work over past 50 years.

>> No.11779006

>>11778983
Yeah, losing a couple semesters isn’t a big deal if you’re significantly more interested in a different field. If you wanna do weapons, aerospace engineering (and to a lesser degree, mechanical) is the way to go.

>> No.11779022

>>11778983
not him >>11779006
but ya aerospace and mechanical for weapons, electrical for targeting system and also weapons, mostly targeting systems though

>> No.11779033

>>11779006
>>11779022
Well, thanks for the info. But is it even possible to do anything important in the industry bar be a cog in the machine? Isn't the Arms Market pretty much cornerned by the Big Guys?

>> No.11779072

>>11779033
Depends heavily on both the country and the specific weapons system in question.

For smaller nations, they’re almost always going to buy the more complex stuff (tanks, fighter aircraft, air defense systems, etc.) from their richer military allies with established industries. However, for simpler systems, where local design and production is feasible, they’ll often pick domestic options, even if performance is slightly poorer than the foreign offerings.

For major military powers like the US, the Lockheeds and Raytheons of the world definitely dominate the industry, but startups and small businesses still thrive through either subcontracting for the big guys or providing R&D services for specific technologies direct to the military. On top of that, in the US right now, we’re finally starting to see a boom of Silicon Valley-style venture capital interest in defense startups due to the lower barrier to entry for developing defense technology compared to the past.

>> No.11779084

>>11777777

>> No.11779113

>>11779072
I see. THanks for all the info anon!

>> No.11779164
File: 160 KB, 1000x1000, 1590890257725.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11779164

>>11776874
Read "Report From Iron Mountain"

Absolute blackpill on the necessity and positive benefits of warfare.

>> No.11779196

>>11779164
>>>/x/

>> No.11779212
File: 26 KB, 548x491, TheUltimateAnswer.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11779212

>>11776874